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  1. #881
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora View Post

    6. A wizard or sorc. This is the guy who doesn't seem to be much help until WHAM! That room where everyone was about to be over run by 20 mobs just got cleared in a puff of smoke (from a fireball or lightning strike I don't know it happened so fast). Now TBH I don't know much about wiz/sorc except that people swear they are the best class out there once you hit level 7 or so.

    I separated this one observation from the others because I from what I have read in this thread to date, and from this comment I don't think your players are using sorcs as low level crowd controllers as effectively as they could be so Sorcerer is getting short shrift in regards to CC. A sorcerer spamming hypnotism and sonic blast is sickeningly effective until level 6 or so. By then he's got web and melf's. An earth savant with Melf's and web is extremely effective in slow, draw the enemy to kill zones, or kill from afar style of play. I currently play one (Flynte) in my perma-death static group and he has been delightfully effective.


    At first he stunned everything while the melees (druid and paladin and rogue) tore through them, then he started using web and melfs. Melf's is great for drawing out monsters one at a time as it has great range. A maximized Melf's in an ogre or troll's face at range means the critter only has half or 1/3 it's HPs by the time it runs over to your party... if the other characters haven't shot it to death with arrows before then.
    Last edited by Postumus; 03-17-2013 at 05:44 PM.

  2. #882
    Community Member Fedora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    Using your rules I would probably try to build my party as follows:
    I agree with everything you stated before this quote. After this quote I also agree with everything.

  3. #883
    Community Member Fedora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    I separated this one observation from the others because I from what I have read in this thread to date, and from this comment I don't think your players are using sorcs as low level crowd controllers as effectively as they could be so Sorcerer is getting short shrift in regards to CC.
    Thank you for this insight. As stated I have tried playing casters and for some reason I really fail at it. Much as I try, I just can't get the hang of playing them effectively.

  4. #884
    Community Member Fedora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    You're on the right track, but like THACo was in the beginning, things aren't always so cut'n dried.

    A Bard is a GOOD selection. It is stated in the PH "A Bard is a combo of Fighter, Clric and Rogue".

    1 character can NOT effectively blockade a normal dungeon door. You need 2, shoulder to shoulder.
    2 characters can NOT blockade the typical large ROUND dungeon door.
    Blockading is essential because we do not "TANK" and garner "Aggro".

    "Choke points" or "bottlenecking" is an important method of protecting spellcasters from melee "attention".
    I am sure this will be an eye opening experience, and you and your group have a lot of advice and insight to offer after experimenting with trial and error over the past year.

    Oh and I will try and keep an eye on the clock to meet/chat with you on Thel tonight around 9PM EST.

  5. #885
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora View Post
    I agree with everything you stated before this quote. After this quote I also agree with everything.
    I really think you are on to something using a bard, pure cleric, fighter, and rog/ranger for your group. Arcanes are great in the fifth slot, but you can run a melee oriented group quite well with a CC bard (or arti if you allowed them) in the 'caster' position. Especially if you have a good, smart melee up front like a CC oriented THF fighter.


    Bard also gives you the flexibility to pick up the slack if the cleric drops out or can't make it one night.


    I also think a hard-hitting melee who can take punishment (THF fighter or THF paladin), could be key to your success with the shrine and gear restrictions you use. I stress THF even though strides have been made with sword and board lately, because I don't want my main damage dealer whittling away on the boss or orange names with a longsword when he can put them down MUCH faster by switching to a great axe and letting the bard and cleric keep him alive while he cleaves away. Let the rogue whittle away from behind
    Last edited by Postumus; 03-17-2013 at 06:48 PM.

  6. #886
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    You're on the right track, but like THACo was in the beginning, things aren't always so cut'n dried.

    A Bard is a GOOD selection. It is stated in the PH "A Bard is a combo of Fighter, Clric and Rogue".

    1 character can NOT effectively blockade a normal dungeon door. You need 2, shoulder to shoulder.
    2 characters can NOT blockade the typical large ROUND dungeon door.
    Blockading is essential because we do not "TANK" and garner "Aggro".

    "Choke points" or "bottlenecking" is an important method of protecting spellcasters from melee "attention".

    That strategy works for your current party makeup and they way your casters choose to use their spells, but a different group with a pure fighter (or paladin), pure bard, and pure cleric would rarely need to use this strategy.


    Typically that group would have the bard fascinate the room, or sound burst the room then the melee (and everyone else with a weapon) chops up the bad guys one by one until they are dead without worrying about retaliation. A group with a fighter with a great axe, power attack, and cleave (or a Paladin with intimidate) can allow the melee to grab aggro first so everything doesn't make a beeline to the casters. Sound burst on a pure cleric is insanely effective CC as is turn undead.


    It just depends on party make up and player experience and ability which tactics work best.

  7. #887
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    Great thoughts! A lot of good ideas.

    I would just make this observation. You've outlined VERY good ideas on how effective EACH and every person in a group can be and just how to compensate when running short-handed.

    This all is with the understanding and commitment by your players that "WE WILL OVERCOME!" would be the motto.
    As any one of us will quickly tell you, we are NOT the best, and don't want to be.
    We have a HECK of a good time making mistakes and taking wrong turns.

    Our Wizard LOVES to cast FIRBALL on a chest just when our Rogue is opening it, and we all **** ourselves laughing.
    In general, EVERYBODY play the ways they LIKE to play, not neccessarily the most efficient way. That's what makes this group such a hoot to adventure with.....the laughter!

    Believe me, play a few quests with THIS bunch and you'll understand.

    (I am in-game now if anyone needs to see me)

  8. #888
    Community Member Fedora's Avatar
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    I must have just missed you. I sent a tell, waited a bit thinking you were afk. Sent a second tell and got an error that you were not online.

    Anyway I'll mess around in the harbor a bit. Sent tell to "Szavvage" when you get back online.

  9. #889
    Community Member zefjoe's Avatar
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    Default Calibhan OOC

    It looks like another group is ready to get together then. Zefjoe, Leadhero5 and Fedora - anyone else? I seem to recall a few others that have posted in the past. We need to settle on:

    the naming convention [I like the idea of a common surname] I throw out the following as suggestions: CHARACTERNAME the "Descriptive"
    of Storm;
    of Stormreach;
    of the Reach;
    of Thacodom;

    Zefjoe votes for - CHARACTERNAME the "Descriptive" of Stormreach

    Races for sure - the old four - Human, Elf, Dwarf, Halfling,
    Races up for vote - Half-elf, Half-Orc
    Races to overpowered for consideration - Drow, Warforged [ come on you know they're too overpowered ]

    Time - weekend, evening - exact day and time TBA

    Initial guidelines
    1. Stat rolls will be determined by dice roll; you may allocate the rolls in the stats of your choice. If all you have available is 32 point build, congrats, you just rolled lucky; they will be allowed. Contact intruder1 for details.
    2. Characters will start at level 1 with a common surname to be determined.
    3. Only gear found while questing will be eligible for use. There will be a gear restriction to be determined. Excess gear may be auctioned or passed out of group. Plat may be sent out, you won't need much in this group. Vendor purchases allowed are spell components, Masterwork arrows/bolts, spell inscription materials, free agent tools.
    4. Characters may be guilded, but no guild buffs allowed.
    5. Warforged are not allowed, too new; Artificer is not allowed, again, too new. Half elf is allowed. Half orc is to be determined. Drow is not allowed.
    6. Multi class is allowed but must be even splits.
    7. Play times will probably be weekend, details to be determined.
    8. A mic is highly recommended. Access to at least mid level packs is highly recommended. Cats, STK, Sharn, Tangleroot to start with. (Points are on sale now!!)
    9. Cooperative, supportive, tactical, play style is mandatory. No zerg/farm.
    10. There is no upper limit to this group. I'd love to see a large number create characters and form static groups or just be available for our 'PUGS'.

    Zefjoe would like to play - either Rogue or Paladin if no-one else wants to but would REALLY like to be a
    Halfling, female; Rogue 10/Paladin 10 mutliclass TWF. I can just imagine all the eyerolls. . I'm thinking SA's when I don't have aggro and Smites when I get aggro. Plus very high saves and evasion.
    or
    Dwarf, male; pure Paladin THF with greataxe for DPS and Axe and Board for defensive.

    Everyone chime in.
    Last edited by zefjoe; 03-17-2013 at 07:52 PM.

  10. #890
    Community Member Fedora's Avatar
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    Okay first character created. All he did was the Grotto. All he owns is a few plat (less than 5), an ember greataxe, a ring of water breathing, a breastplate (medium armor), and a few starter potions of cure wounds.

    Name: Jedial Sentinal of Storm.

    "of Stormreach" would only leave 6 characters for the descriptive.

    He is a half elf Paladin.

    EDIT - Also wanted to add this one was random-rolled with Tukcc.
    Last edited by Fedora; 03-17-2013 at 09:07 PM.

  11. #891
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora View Post
    EDIT - Also wanted to add this one was random-rolled with Tukcc.
    This worked out pretty well.
    Having a 32 point build doesn't improve chances for higher stats, but ends up raising the lowest.
    This random roll is a great way to get back to classic and yet gives you a good range of abilities.
    Fedora ended up with 3 stats 15+!

    IMO...a fun part was taking what you end up with and seeing what class your character is qualified to play.

    Rolling the dice is pretty simple, the slow part was me applying the conversions and adjustments, and not making a mistake on the spreadsheet!

    Cal.....meet me tonight and you can roll your dice! I'll be in from about 6pm.

  12. #892
    Community Member Fedora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    IMO...a fun part was taking what you end up with and seeing what class your character is qualified to play.
    I was undecided about what to play, but narrowed it down to a Paladin or Fighter. The rolls then decided (with enough to cover all the Paladin minimums) what it would be. And for the record, there was a minor mistake in the conversions. I almost had 3 stats 15+, but but was actually 1 "build point" short, so a 9 stat was raised to a 10 while a 15 had to be lowered to a 14. Here is the final result:

    Jedial Sentinal of Storm
    Half Elf Paladin Level 1

    STR 17
    DEX 10
    CON 10
    INT 9
    WIS 14
    CHA 15

    1st Feat: Toughness
    Dilettante Feat: Cleric
    Skill Pts: UMD, Tumble, Balance

  13. #893
    Community Member LeadHero5's Avatar
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    Default Count me in...

    I already have a rogue, sorc, pali, and wizard. Since I have done very little with ranger, I will take this as my choice, and make it halfling as race. ????? Warden of Storm
    Originally posted by Aeryyn "I don't play this game for xp/min, I play for fun/hour. "

  14. #894
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeadHero5 View Post
    Since I have done very little with ranger, I will take this as my choice, and make it halfling as race. ????? Warden of Storm
    see me tonight before doing any creating?

  15. #895
    Community Member zefjoe's Avatar
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    Default Calibhan OOC

    Before I meet with Tukcc tonight I'd like to get feedback on a Rogue-Paladin 10/10 split. I'm not looking to be the Trapmiester, but would a half rogue be able to keep up the disable skill high enough to do Hard content? From what I've read in posts and the wiki, it's an iffy thing. The reason for the Pally split is to bring very high saves via the boost and Force of Personality. Plus the auras would help the team. And the Smites would be used when I got aggro.

    Is it viable?

    If it's the opinion that it's not, I'm willing to be the Cleric or pure Rogue if nobody else wants 'em.

  16. #896
    Community Member Fedora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zefjoe View Post
    Before I meet with Tukcc tonight I'd like to get feedback on a Rogue-Paladin 10/10 split. I'm not looking to be the Trapmiester, but would a half rogue be able to keep up the disable skill high enough to do Hard content? From what I've read in posts and the wiki, it's an iffy thing. The reason for the Pally split is to bring very high saves via the boost and Force of Personality. Plus the auras would help the team. And the Smites would be used when I got aggro.

    Is it viable?

    If it's the opinion that it's not, I'm willing to be the Cleric or pure Rogue if nobody else wants 'em.
    Here is my humble feedback, with the caveat I really want you to play what you prefer to play.

    A Pally/Rogue has some synergy, but not in this case. Where it works really well is as a splash (2 rogue) taken at level 1 and 8, for a mostly solo player, or as a 2 man team. You keep the fighting and survivability of the paladin while gaining locks (and to a lesser extent traps, but only early on) and evasion at level 8, with a little SA damage occasionally. The ability to keep top-of-the-line-for-your-level magic also made the 2 rogue levels stretch because at level 7 you could have +10 spot/search/disable/lock items.

    It does not (IMHO) work very well in a 10/10 or 11/9 split. You basically have a weak paladin with subpar trapping skills. I apologize for taking the first paladin, I forgot you were interested in one and my rolls worked out good. That said, as long as we stick together we already have the auras covered. If you have half-elf, you could get your high saves with a paladin dillly, provided your charisma meets the minimum (13 I think).

    Looks like LeadHero will take on the Ranger role, so we could really use a cleric or rogue, or even a ranger/rogue would work well since the ranger gets a good amount of skill points and spot/search/hide/move silent are all primary skills for him as well it will be easy to keep up the traps/locks on rogue levels.

    Are cleric hirelings allowed if we run a short-manned party and are missing a cleric?

    One last option I would be willing to do. As long as it would be allowed for me to keep my same rolls (17,15,14,10,10,9) I could delete my paladin and create a ranger/rogue. Then you could play a pure paladin. I'm good with that option. Then all we need is a cleric.


  17. #897
    Community Member zefjoe's Avatar
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    Default Calibhan OOC

    Fedora
    No need for you to change. You decided on a smart choice given the rolls you got. No worries. My rolls may dictate some other choice entirely. I just wanted some feedback on my oddball

    Like I've stated, I like multiclass oddballs - the 10/10 split was for a stealthy mage-undead-outsider killer.

    I think what I'll do is depending on the rolls, I'll go either Rogue, Ranger-Rogue or Cleric.

  18. #898
    Community Member Fedora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zefjoe View Post
    I think what I'll do is depending on the rolls, I'll go either Rogue, Ranger-Rogue or Cleric.
    Oh! Oh! Oh! I know! Do a cleric/rogue/ranger! That way all you need is Wisdom and Charisma for the cleric, Strength and Dexterity for the Ranger, and Intelligence for the Rogue! You can dump Constitution like I did!

  19. #899
    Community Member zefjoe's Avatar
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    Default Calibhan OOC

    Hmmm.... Rogue/ Ranger/ Cleric...
    by the gods IT COULD WORK! ;P

    You really think a Ranger/Rogue would be a viable trapper? That would give each of us a way to heal independent of a Cleric until one comes along. I suppose a hireling could suffice but I'd prefer to have a real person in the group or none at all.

    So if the rolls come up in my favor I'll go Ranger/Rogue. Dwarf would be the OPTIMAL choice, but Iiiiiiiii,mmmm thinking some flavor. Halfling prob. Female. Attractive yet forbidding. Pretty menacing.

    See what I did there.

    I'll see Tukcc in game tonight @ 7:30 if he's there.

  20. #900
    Community Member Fedora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zefjoe View Post
    You really think a Ranger/Rogue would be a viable trapper?
    Absolutely viable. Locks are a cinch all the way through level 20 with 2 rogue levels and some good equipment, so 9-11 rogue levels would be more than up to the task. With traps you will be fine too. The DC on traps is harder than locks, but you don't need 20 levels of rogue. And as I said, with ranger you won't miss out on being able to pump up full points in your trapping skills, you just spend 2 points per rogue level on traps/locks, while on ranger levels you pump them into search and spot.

    Now sneak up on something with point blank shot, bow strength, and multi-shot combined. Would you also get SA damage?


    Quote Originally Posted by zefjoe View Post
    That would give each of us a way to heal independent of a Cleric until one comes along.
    I hadn't thought about this, but you're right. Now if you decide for a halfling, I REALLY like the dragonmark of healing line.


    Quote Originally Posted by zefjoe View Post
    I suppose a hireling could suffice but I'd prefer to have a real person in the group or none at all.
    I personally like nannybot hirelings. They are dumb enough to not be over powered "easy buttons", while being much better than no cleric at all.

    Here is a dwarf vs. halfling look:

    DWARF:
    +2 CON, but -2 CHA. - I think this is a good trade for ranger/rogue.
    Racial Toughness enhancements - Also good.
    Spell Point enhancements - might be okay for ranger.
    bonuses to saves against spells and poisons - nice
    bonuses when fighting giant or goblinoid type creatures - nice
    bonuses to Search and Balance - very nice

    HALFLING
    +2 Dexterity, -2 Strength Overall a wash it would seem, but I actually think this might lean toward a negative.
    +1 size bonus to Armor Class - very good
    +1 bonus to attack rolls with thrown weapons - meh
    +2 to Jump, Listen and Move Silently skills, and +4 to Hide - good
    +1 to all saves and and +2 bonus to saves against Fear - excellent
    Mark of Healing Dragonmark feats - excellent
    Cunning and Guile enhancement lines - good for sneak attacks
    75% carrying capacity - bummer, especially with a 10% encumbrance rule
    Last edited by Fedora; 03-18-2013 at 03:32 PM.

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