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  1. #821
    Community Member Fedora's Avatar
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    Had you ever considered bringing regular rations from a tavern and "destroying" them in a quest as a requirement for using a rest shrine? Since rest shrines are not classic D&D, but rations are, that might have been an alternative way to simulate resting up.

    EDIT: Looks like they changed the pork barrel to potions of wonder?

  2. #822
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora View Post
    Had you ever considered bringing regular rations from a tavern and "destroying" them in a quest as a requirement for using a rest shrine? Since rest shrines are not classic D&D, but rations are, that might have been an alternative way to simulate resting up.

    EDIT: Looks like they changed the pork barrel to potions of wonder?
    The original reason we didn't use shrines was making a characters hit points AND spell points finite. When you were injured and/or depleted, a Cleric might be able to tend wounds, but you had to find another way to continue or leave the dungeon.

    DDO being what it is, we have had to adapt BYOH, but as minimal as possible. In campaigns before, spell ability took many hours of rest and was never possible DURING an adventure so even though healing would be OK from a shrine, getting "topped off" in SP keeps us from using shrines. The general oppinion here follows that ideal so we use healing, but not SP restoration.
    I realize this may inhibit "end content", but "end content" does not concern me.

    Took a long look at the encumberence system in DDO and compared it to 2nd Ed. It's really not too far off.
    The problem (if it is considered a problem) is the "max weight allowable" number in the UI. It seems to me to be 0ne decimal point off. If that number was divided by ten, i think the encumberance would work as intended.

    encumberance would add a factor of challenge not present now. currently, a burly fighter could actually carry 5 or 6 suits of plate armor without weighing him down. I realize there are players who do this (or something similar) in order to "switch out" different armor/weapon combos.
    In our classic playstyle, this should never be allowed.

    to a lesser effect, this would also prevent some characters from storing TONS of projectile ammo that couldn't possibly fit in a backpack.

    another thing i noticed was that collectables weigh nothing while ingredients (essences, ect) do. I hope this trend continues in future updates because it makes "bags" useful to us again. Just got to redesign quivers not to represent virtual resupply depots.
    Last edited by intruder1; 03-02-2013 at 10:10 AM.

  3. #823
    Community Member Fricko's Avatar
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    Default Bag of Holding... Earned!

    I can only speak to my own old PnP campaign and the characters capabilities in it.... and to Cogs current set-up and inventory.

    It took the PnP Characters a few levels, and a focused quest series that required stealing a haunted sloop for intercontental travel to rescue the Wandering Mage/Scholar who could provide them, but each member eventually acquired a "Bag of Holding" by level 5 - 6. It did have limits on size and weight, but I don't recall what they were now. It is in the old books, or I'd not have allowed them in game.

    Cogoiler's "Bag of Holding" (BoH) came as an earned reward for services rendered to the Coin Lords. It is the BoH that contains the large number of bolts and nothing else! That BoH is reserved for bolts only.

    His other three "bags" are actually envisioned as a belt with sheaths and pouches, two crossed bandoleers, and backpack/pockets/straps, with the BoH inside that.

    If you are interested, I will provide an inventory and storage location of items, as I would describe Cogs outfit to a curious DM.

    FYI: The House D Wide Quivers only hold a max of 250 bolts of a single type, although they do hold more than one type of bolt. I'd like to have one just so Cogs has a quiver of bolts! Any archer is going to have a dang quiver! DUH!

    -Sam
    Last edited by Fricko; 03-02-2013 at 10:38 AM. Reason: on quivers for archers added

  4. #824
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fricko View Post
    Cogoiler's "Bag of Holding" (BoH) came as an earned reward for services rendered to the Coin Lords. It is the BoH that contains the large number of bolts and nothing else! That BoH is reserved for bolts only.

    His other three "bags" are actually envisioned as a belt with sheaths and pouches, two crossed bandoleers, and backpack/pockets/straps, with the BoH inside that.

    Any archer is going to have a dang quiver! DUH!

    -Sam
    I agree with the concept old buddy. If the encumberence system worked, there would be no issue with containers at all.

    Your BoH is just an additional back pack space. With an encumberence system that makes weight meaningless otherwise.

    (I was under the impression our group didn't use bags or quivers?)

  5. #825
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    “Last year we expanded the world of DDO into the Forgotten Realms universe with the launch of our first expansion,” said Erik Boyer, Senior Producer of DDO. “This year we’re introducing more content and making it even easier to experience the latest content with the introduction of Iconic Heroes that begin at level 15, allowing players to jump right into the action.”

    Looks like this summer forgotten realms is getting nearer peoples reach
    Just awestruck, wether it be a Dragon flying overhead Stormreach, that glowing character who just zoomed in'n'out of the Pub, or that i can drink a Beholder under the table and best of all rescuing Damsels in distress.

  6. #826
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    After taking a long look at encumerence, it's a real shame the Max Allowable Weight figure is 10 times higher than it should be.
    If it weren't, it would add some "Classic" to the mix in DDO. As it stands, encumberence is effectively turned off.

    If it ever is corrected, Quivers and Bags wouldn't be an issue to "us" anymore.

    We COULD just say that arrows can only be placed in Quivers, but ..........

  7. #827
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    Default A good year.....

    The Adventuring group come to be called The "THAC0 Fellowship" has just completed 1 year in adventuring.

    This six player Static Group has seen players (friends) come, and go, then have new friends join to take their place.
    The Campaign began last year in February and all characters started at Level 4. One year later all members are now Level 8 and looking forward to another year of good, Classic Dungeons and Dragons Gameplaying.

    The focus of this group is to try to adventure using skills from both the players and their characters moreso than the amount of gear they possess. I venture to say that each of these characters has a life unto themselves that few who meet them will ever forget!

    I just want to say thanks to everyone who has participated, wether they be current or past members.

  8. #828
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    Guys.........In an effort to play more "Classic", I am imposing an Encumberence System on my character to see how it works.
    I will use the Max allowable weight divided by 10 as my limit BEFORE an adventure begins. Much the same way we use our magic Potential numbers before starting a game.

    This is not a Guild requirement, just for me. You can do this if you want to, but not required.
    It DOES open your eyes though to yet another unused facet of old style D&D.

  9. #829
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    Default Multi-class or Build?

    I'm definetly "old-school" when it come to D&D, and never liked the "Build' method of Multiclass.
    Here's a post that caused me to just stop. Is this really the attitude of players?
    http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=401133

    (To me), the fun of D&D was playing characters where you DIDN'T have control of some aspects.

    Question: Classic Characters had distinct differences. Does "Building" maintain that ideal, or is it now the quest for the perfect hybrid?

  10. #830
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    Quote Originally Posted by kerikofgreyhawk
    This part of the dude's post pretty much defines it:


    "Just today I was hard farming a few runs of PoP in gianthold"
    ...

  11. #831
    Community Member zefjoe's Avatar
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    Default Calibhan OOC

    The most interesting reply in this post for me was the one from Bigolbear where he describes the potential for the multi-class the OP observed and how the character could be played. The thought process is similar to mine when I design a character. I guess the main reason that I put a lot of forethought into the final design of my characters is the fact that I have a specific kind of end Character in mind and develop him to fit. My efforts need to be fun AND efficient. Knowing what kind of adventurer I'm developing and seeing how my design choices play out in the concrete environment of the quests is as much fun as the quests themselves. I see building an odd character that has a lot of versatility and survivability and can be successful in a quest to be very appealing. It's the challenge. I design multi-class characters exclusively now because I find pure characters to be too niche and predictable. I want the most "bang for the buck", without necessarily building for power gaming. I don't see myself as a power gamer, but as a tinkerer looking to create a particular Character for an Adventurous Story to star in. A multi-class can still be distinctly different from a pure character and can offer a lot to a party.

  12. #832
    Community Member zefjoe's Avatar
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    Default Calibhan OOC

    Calibhan, when he reaches level 20 - in about 4 YEARS (yikes! 0.o) will be a 8 Cleric/ 6 Ranger/ 6 Rogue. I envision him as a sort of battlefield medic capable of at least keeping his teammates standing long enough to retreat, able to axe and board or TWF with proc weapons doing SA damage to defend his arcanes, with great saves and hitpoints to last as their shield. He'll be gimpy by power gamer standards but hopefully be able to pull his own weight and be useful to the team. With our ruleset, 8/6/6 is his destiny and i'm ok with that. Any vet's out there that read these posts and have any advice for Cal please feel free to comment. As a half-breed he has very thick skin [grey with purplish tint ].

  13. #833
    Community Member Fedora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zefjoe View Post
    Calibhan, when he reaches level 20 - in about 4 YEARS (yikes! 0.o) will be a 8 Cleric/ 6 Ranger/ 6 Rogue.
    I am no expert, but since you opened it for comments I wonder if he would be able to:

    1. Hit anything at level 20.
    2. Heal the damage that level 20 mobs and bosses deal out fast enough to even "get away" let alone "not die".
    3. Do any significant damage to anything he does hit at level 20.

    I think he would be a great level 20 character to take on level 14 quests, but I think he will be hard pressed to be useful at level 20, and that's not even considering your group's self-imposed limits on magic items.

    That's always a problem with deep multi-classing, regardless of the combination. There is a reason why most multi-classes have 'splashes" instead of even splits. You generally lose too much by spreading too thin when you go even-steven like that, whereas a 16/2/2 gains versatility w/o so much power loss.

    That aside, you are in a static group who understands all this, and y'all are having a great time, so if it works for you that's cool.

  14. #834
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    Default Things.....

    There's a lot of different playstyles within this groups "playstyle". It seems as if each player has his own vision, and that's good.
    We need to discuss ideas. The following is a PM that outlines some things and I'll try to comment.

    Quote Originally Posted by zefjoe
    I think the only things I would add/change are: the Heirloom item idea - mainly because it seems evident now that the few good/useful items that pop up in chests or rewards are usually several potentials greater than can be useful NOW. It seems like no-one is making much use out of most of the stuff they pull from the chests, or is it just me?
    I wish encounter rewards were the ONLY rewards in a Quest and parred down a bit.

    The thought of a Magic Weapon being available for EACH significant encounter to be a bit much for our style. The fact that most of what is found is of limited or no use at all is the only saving grace. Left unchecked, Magic Items quickly become "Monty Haul" and therefor become less valuable.

    Having an eye on "end content" is one way of playing, but the game was ORIGINALLY designed for the "Journey".

    The issue with what we have called "Divine Gifts" may need futher guidance to keep them from quickly overpowering the group.
    I would like to submit a classification for Magic Items.
    Magic Items with +1 potential are "Common" Magic Items.
    Magic Items with potentials up to 50% of your current Level are "Minor" Magic Items.
    Magic Items with potentials more than 50% of your level are "Moderate" Magic Items.
    Magic Items that have NO potential, yet have 2 or more "effects" are "Major" Magic Items.

    As per the 2nd Ed DMG, a character of 8th level COULD have these........
    60% chance for a Common or Minor magic item. Maximum of (3).
    40% chance for a Moderate Item. Maximum of (2).
    20% chance for a Major Magic item.

    I suggest "Divine Gifts" remain +1 for potential, but limited to 1 equiped at a time.

    Under this ideal, Tukcc has (1) Major Magic Item, and (3) Minor Magic Items.
    The total potential is 8.
    In the 2nd Ed. example above, he would have succeeded in 4 of the 6 dice rolls.


    Quote Originally Posted by zefjoe
    I stick to the magic potentials limit though so nothing is uber. I just hate feeling like I'm not - deadly enough - I guess. I'm a frickin dwarf, I should be LETHAL with an axe
    In Classic D&D, NO ONE is that lethal. We removed most of the Critical Damage threat from any monsters so we would have a chance to win a prolonged fight because prolonged fights is what makes the game exciting.
    Our 2 Spellcasters ARE lethal with single shots, BUT god help them if they are caught in the open or up close! That's the "balance".
    Your Dwarf's strength is in his raw toughness, like a Dwarf SHOULD be. Given a "Divine Gift" Axe, he is awsome indeed!
    Tukcc is heavily armored AND is fearsome with his Scimitar, though he lacks Hit Points to stick out a overly-lengthly fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by zefjoe
    The only other lament I have is I want to play more with you guys! I mean more than once a week - ............. . I know some have limited play time but hows about starting another group on another night? Just a thought. I'm having a great time just the way things are. If only we could "teach" a more - cautious? knowledgeable? playmanship? playstyle to some ONE of the members. I think it would help keep down the inadvertant deaths, and boost some morale for some. ;0
    Good thoughts. Are you suggesting creating another character? or adding playing time to existing ones?
    Another group could possibly be started if enough players were available.
    I, for one, could not commit to more than 1 night a week. Though once in a while I do have the time.
    Last edited by intruder1; 03-12-2013 at 10:02 AM.

  15. #835
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora View Post
    I am no expert, but since you opened it for comments I wonder if he would be able to:

    1. Hit anything at level 20.
    2. Heal the damage that level 20 mobs and bosses deal out fast enough to even "get away" let alone "not die".
    3. Do any significant damage to anything he does hit at level 20.

    I think he would be a great level 20 character to take on level 14 quests, but I think he will be hard pressed to be useful at level 20, and that's not even considering your group's self-imposed limits on magic items.

    That's always a problem with deep multi-classing, regardless of the combination. There is a reason why most multi-classes have 'splashes" instead of even splits. You generally lose too much by spreading too thin when you go even-steven like that, whereas a 16/2/2 gains versatility w/o so much power loss.

    That aside, you are in a static group who understands all this, and y'all are having a great time, so if it works for you that's cool.
    What we do is constantly alter the difficulty to try to match the group.
    It MAY end up doing Casual Difficulty and Quest levels below the group, but that's what we're trying to find out.
    It might even be impossible to do end content (honestly, this is my expectation), but for me, it's about the journey.

    We just adventure in whatever quest matches our abilities.

  16. #836
    Community Member Fedora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    What we do is constantly alter the difficulty to try to match the group.
    It MAY end up doing Casual Difficulty and Quest levels below the group, but that's what we're trying to find out.
    It might even be impossible to do end content (honestly, this is my expectation), but for me, it's about the journey.

    We just adventure in whatever quest matches our abilities.
    Understood, and it sounds like a great time is being had by all.

    If I had to guess, I would say you are going to hit a wall around level 12 quests. However, you all did surprise me on the Proof in the Poison quest, so I certanily could be wrong.

  17. #837
    Community Member zefjoe's Avatar
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    Default Calibhan OOC

    Thanks for the reply Fedora. As far as end content, truthfully, I don't plan on it. But like you say, Cal may be alright in level 14-15 quests at 20. That's a long way off though and I'm focused on the now. I want to try to make Calibhan as effective as possible for our team despite the fact of his deep 3 way split. He's probable the least "effective" of the six - low cleric abilities for 8th level, only SA and Evasion with the Rogue class (all the skills I sacrificed because they could never be up to snuff for Rogue duties) and too low a BAB to use TWF. What he does have is a -
    high Spot and Listen
    high Hide (and modest Move Silent to better body/sound pull)
    high Balance
    high saves (15/14/13 w/ Resilience)
    good STR, CON and WIS
    Toughness, Mental Toughness and Resilience feats
    bracers of lesser spearblock (from Korthos island, counted as +1)
    +2 light chainmail with lesser axeblock
    +2 Keen d'axe
    +3 heavy shield of Stability

    He makes an effective doorstop - and unfortunate kill stealer after the arcanes knock down a mobs hp's. But he makes do with what he's got and tries hard to help his buddies. If I ever start in another character I would probably go with a 10/10 Paladin/Rogue split... I know, I know... but I'm fascinated with multi-classing.

  18. #838
    Community Member zefjoe's Avatar
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    Default Calibhan OOC

    Just curious Fedora (and to any one else who has read and commented in these posts) what kind of character would you prefer to play with this type of playstyle... very limited magic gear, limited stat growth and "unoptimized" roll up? What would be your vision be for him/her knowing the slow advancement in store?

  19. #839
    Community Member LeadHero5's Avatar
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    Default Enumberance, gear, and end content...

    When I first checked Grondley's pack, it was 54 pounds, I sold some stuff, banked some stuff,tossed some stuff. Now 46 pounds, a lot of scrolls, and components. My scepter weighs 3 pounds. Good luck with you heavy armor guys.

    I agree about not being able to use a lot of the recent rewards. I have a +3 int ring (3) an impulse scepter (3), a store wand (1) and a 50 spell point gem (1) it does not have a potential number. I'm using the '+1 if no potential rule' but since it is a wizardry 2 item, it's level is probably a 2. That is the most recent addition to my gear. I am really hoping for a force and fire scepter, but I'm afraid it will come paired with a +2 attack bonus and be too high. "I don't hit things with sticks". The scepter I've had for quite a while.

    I also have a feeling that we will hit a level wall, in a year or so. With no shrine use, the magic users will not be able to contribute in the beginning, of have nothing left for the end.


    Originally posted by Aeryyn "I don't play this game for xp/min, I play for fun/hour. "

  20. #840
    Community Member Fedora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zefjoe View Post
    only SA and Evasion with the Rogue class (all the skills I sacrificed because they could never be up to snuff for Rogue duties)
    Just one comment here - I've heard you only need about 10 levels in lock picking to open 90% of locks in the game. Trapping is much more difficult, as you need spot and search as well as decent skill in disable device.

    Quote Originally Posted by zefjoe View Post
    I would probably go with a 10/10 Paladin/Rogue split
    You could easily make due with a 12/8 or 14/6 split here. If you take rogue at the right levels (1st, then you could stretch level 2 rogue all the way to 8th so you can get your pally PrE and whatever after that) you can pretty much keep your skills up to par for everything up to level 20, you don't need 10 levels of rogue for them to be up to snuff. And while I know you like the flavor of deep splits, 12/8 is a good compromise to get Pally PrE II and rogue PrE I and all your skills maxed while still keeping the deep split. 10/10 is a really bad split.

    I have a Pally7/Rogue2 right now, and granted he has the good spot/search/disable gear, but he is able to find/disable and unlock everything he comes across. Since I don't plan on taking any more rogue levels, he will probably not be able to do traps past level 14-15, but should hit the locks through level 20 no problem.

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