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  1. #761
    Community Member Fricko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    .... The present magic system seems to match up good with information in the 2nd Ed DMG. Let's try to keep it that way.
    Agreed.

    Manipulation of Quest levels, and/or difficulty setting, may prove an interesting experiment to try first.

  2. #762
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    Default Game Night

    Last night the Party attempted Proof in the Poison.
    This was a Quest 3 levels below Party and done at Elite Difficulty.

    We were able to make it some half way, I guess, with 3 or 4 incapacitations.
    It wasn't until a mishap, did someone die requiring our returning to the surface.

    The encounters were challenging, but working smartly, we bested the multitude of casters.

    This was (is) supposed to be just about the hardest quest done at level.
    It was a good test for our playstyle.

    Next week we will attempt Splinterskull again at Hard difficulty to measure the difference from Elite.

  3. #763
    Community Member Fedora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    Last night the Party attempted Proof in the Poison.
    This was a Quest 3 levels below Party and done at Elite Difficulty.

    We were able to make it some half way, I guess, with 3 or 4 incapacitations.
    It wasn't until a mishap, did someone die requiring our returning to the surface.

    The encounters were challenging, but working smartly, we bested the multitude of casters.

    This was (is) supposed to be just about the hardest quest done at level.
    It was a good test for our playstyle.

    Next week we will attempt Splinterskull again at Hard difficulty to measure the difference from Elite.
    That's actually pretty good. Are you sure you were half way though? That is a very long quest. Every time I thought I was alomost done, it just kept on going... lol

    I would have bet money you wouldn't make it past the first encounter with the traps/casters. Good job!

    I'd love to hear some play-by-play accounts of some of those fights.

  4. #764
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    Default Death.....what does it mean in DDO?

    Last night, the subject of character death came up again, or rather, how we deal with it.

    I (personally) don't like Permadeath because this IS a game afterall.
    I also don't think it should be trivialized.
    Death in DDO means nothing. You're either raised in-quest, or raised in the tavern.
    The only permanent effect of death is potential damage of equipment.
    (I'd REALLY love to see a "resurrection survival" dice roll for the permanent loss of 1 point of Constitution.)

    This playstyle requires gaining levels all together, waiting for all to have enough xp.
    We started by dropping dead players when no means of raise dead was available, then character was allowed to solo to make up the XP.
    Then we tried allowing "Ghosts" to accompany us while the Quest was finished in order for them not to have to grind the missed xp.
    Currently, we're aborting the mission if so much as one character dies.

    This last method is not very well liked.

    It occured to me today that what we haven't tried is abandoning the "All level together" rule.
    It was done as a standard for evaluating Party vs Quest comparisons.

    What we could do is drop dead characters, NOT grind missed xp, progress to next level on individual basis and gauge how this balances with Quests.
    This would produce characters with different Levels and rates of progression.

    (I expect a lot of arguments on this one.)

    What I think might be wanted is a penalty-free death system where the only way you get zero xp is with a Party wipe.

    Either way is fine with me.
    Let the discussion begin.

  5. #765
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora View Post
    I would have bet money you wouldn't make it past the first encounter with the traps/casters. Good job!
    That encounter was the absolute BEST time I've seen with this group!
    Very smart handling of the situation and figuring out the "crossfire" Trap on top of the bridge was outstanding.
    My hat is off to this group and their playmanship.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora View Post
    I'd love to hear some play-by-play accounts of some of those fights.
    I'm sure the "stories" will be forthcoming.

  6. #766
    Community Member Fedora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    Then we tried allowing "Ghosts" to accompany us while the Quest was finished in order for them not to have to grind the missed xp.
    Just as a curious bystander, what was wrong with this option? Was it that they didn't get to participate? I can see that being an issue, especially if they died early during the quest.

  7. #767
    Community Member LeadHero5's Avatar
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    Default Traveling as a group..

    'Proof' would have yielded over 5,000 xp if we had completed it. To drop a dead character, no comrade, as 'punishment' and have him make that up on his own, or start lagging behind us in level to further weaken the party is not productive, in my opinion. I have said this before, I don't think this group needs any outside incentive to play our style. I'm not about to goof off because 'so what, I'll still get xp and end lutz, just miss end in-quest chests'.

    Long quests with no shrine are now impacting our blue bars. We were as far as the first acid room, strung out along the wall, like laundry on the line, with Cogs and Cal in front. I was worried that we were all risking ourselves if we didn't need continue from that point if it was a dead end with just a lever throw. On the other hand, they would be on their own if there was combat. Sure enough some fighters and casters got our rogue. At that point I had used up a partial wand and was well into my second one and only about 1/3 of my mana left. I was forced to call Jac (my skelly summons) 3 or 4 times, more then ever before. I'm sure I would have been completely spent before the end if we had been able to continue. And to proceed with only 5 would surely have doomed us.

    The previous combats had gone well, we could trim some groups down one at a time, if a few fighters and a caster attacked at once, we truly had our mettle tested. A few 'knock-outs' occurred at those times.

    A death well before the end is a sure sign that we are over matched and should withdraw. A death near the end and the group decision to try to continue should allow the dead to complete with us. A death during the end but successful completion should also allow the dead to complete.

    For now we are leaving our gear rules in place as we experiment with level and difficulty combinations to find our limit. I think we are nearly there; but there is no lack of places to go without having to repeat too much. Long term, I would like to see a slight gear increase if we are unable to advance; because without completions, no new enhancements either.


    Originally posted by Aeryyn "I don't play this game for xp/min, I play for fun/hour. "

  8. #768
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    Proof is a hard on. In MV if the rogue does not knows the quest it can take up to three hours. If he know the quest it is still an 2 hour quest but we play it really safe pulling on person at a time.

  9. #769
    Community Member zefjoe's Avatar
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    Default Calibhan OOC

    Quote Originally Posted by LeadHero5 View Post
    ~ "To drop a dead character, no comrade, as 'punishment' and have him make that up on his own, or start lagging behind us in level to further weaken the party is not productive, in my opinion. I have said this before, I don't think this group needs any outside incentive to play our style. I'm not about to goof off because 'so what, I'll still get xp and end lutz, just miss end in-quest chests'."

    - Exactly my sentiment. We are all dedicated to staying alive to reach the end as a team. I don't think I would trivialize dying by knowing that I could ride in someones pack to the end. Not being able to participate in the adventure is punishment enough for me. I have an idea to suggest about a "death penalty" so to speak, which is presented below.

    "A death well before the end is a sure sign that we are over matched and should withdraw. A death near the end and the group decision to try to continue should allow the dead to complete with us. A death during the end but successful completion should also allow the dead to complete."

    - Again I agree. If someone dings while fighting the end boss, are we going to tramp all the way back out and try again? If we were playing several times a week I think we wouldn't really debate about this, but with our limited playtime every night counts. When we went into the Chamber of Insanity and never made it past the first Wraith, it was painfully obvious we were unready for the quest. Back out we went. But half way through the Depths of Discord and Tukcc dies and it was a toss up of continue and see what lay just around the corner or back out. It was during this debate when the blade trap caught Grondley and Kierik, simply because we all had THAT on our minds.

    "For now we are leaving our gear rules in place as we experiment with level and difficulty combinations to find our limit. I think we are nearly there; but there is no lack of places to go without having to repeat too much. Long term, I would like to see a slight gear increase if we are unable to advance; because without completions, no new enhancements either."
    - I think this hits close to the root of all our problems. While it is true that DDO throws too much MAGIC stuff, too much of powerful MAGIC stuff into the game, and that a TEAM of dedicated, like minded adventurers working together should and can tackle quests without alot of all that fluff, it is also apparent that there is a need for some "specialized" gear to help blunt the extremes of DEV HELL inherent in the quests.

    Think of it this way, the quests and the challenge they pose at various difficulties acts much like damage incoming from a mobs attack. Most of the time we are able to "deal" with that damage with our characters raw abilities and our playmanship. But, as we are seeing now, there are times when that incoming damage spikes - much like a critical hit - and we are EXTREMELY vulnerable at those times. The solution to critical hits of course was a Fortification belt. A specific ITEM designed to mitigate against that specific spike of "damage". So by analogy, specific ITEMs are needed to mitigate against specific moments of quests "difficulty".

    I am NOT saying we should abandon the magic potential = level paradigm that Tukcc has come up with. I think that is a stroke genius and it works very well to keep alot of the "FLUFF" out. However the small amount of playtime and the limited number of chests that are encountered PLUS the usual useless "junk" and the few OVERPOWERED items all contribute to our dearth of "specific ITEMs" that we actually really use.

    SO, after all that, my idea presented to the Fellowship - Heirloom ITEMs.

    ONE specific ITEM every four levels [which would only introduce 5 items by level 20] that we can acquire by the Vendors or Brokers or from our own hoards. Said ITEM must be presented to the Fellowship for approval. Said ITEM cannot have a magic potential more than half our level rounded up [so at level 7 we could have ONE ITEM with a +4 potential that does NOT count against our magic total limit. This way we can shore up our deficiencies, stick to the idea of limited magic, have an item that helps mitigate the "difficulty" spikes, and helps morale out by allowing that little extra reward.

    And when someone dies in quest, a "death penalty" could be that they lose a + on their Heirloom item or one of their other magic potential items or something along those lines.

    Well - this is all just so much spaghetti I'm throwing at the wall to see what sticks and make everyone go hunh?

  10. #770
    Community Member LeadHero5's Avatar
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    Default Penalty box...

    Quote Originally Posted by zefjoe View Post
    - And when someone dies in quest, a "death penalty" could be that they lose a + on their Heirloom item or one of their other magic potential items or something along those lines.
    Anything that weakens our already flimsy characters is not productive. Wipe, bail or finish, we should do it together. I'm all for having our deaths posted on our bio page for much tavern ridicule and jests, and the eventual wear on items from death penalty. (Although, I have never seen more then 10-20% damage accumulate on anything I ever owned.) But not our strength.

    Wish I had kept better notes, but from recollection, we seem to die more often when separated for some reason; either strung out by the map, or isolated by closing gate traps. Stupidity is close behind. (Grondley and Kierik exchange rueful glances)

    I like the concept of the heirloom item, I'd rather it came as a found item since we are playing a self funded party. But not quite yet, we are really starting to come together as a team, I think we can get through some more quests at the current level.

    Another concern, we are soon going to face time constraints. We will have to go (I can't believe I'm saying this) faster to get through the longer content before dawn; and we can't just stop and wait for next week.


    Originally posted by Aeryyn "I don't play this game for xp/min, I play for fun/hour. "

  11. #771
    Community Member Fedora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeadHero5 View Post
    and the eventual wear on items from death penalty. (Although, I have never seen more then 10-20% damage accumulate on anything I ever owned.)
    My understanding is that item damage due to death is never permanent damage, so it can always be repaired back to normal.

  12. #772
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora View Post
    My understanding is that item damage due to death is never permanent damage, so it can always be repaired back to normal.
    This is true for BTA and BTC items. Unbound items can and do get permanent damage.

  13. #773
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    This is true for BTA and BTC items. Unbound items can and do get permanent damage.
    Not from death wear, only standard wear. I can't find Eladrin's post on the change, but here it is from the wiki

    Quote Originally Posted by DDOWiki
    Loading Screen Tip 200: When you die, any non-stacking items you have equipped take some damage. When you repair this type of item wear, however, your item doesn't have a chance of being permanently damaged. Only when repairing standard item wear do you risk your item taking permanent damage.
    http://ddowiki.com/page/Repair_(equipment)
    Last edited by GeneralDiomedes; 01-11-2013 at 04:55 PM.

  14. #774
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    On the issue of death, may i suggest characters with divine levels or umd go to the divine scroll vendors in house J or K and look to see if they can use raise dead scrolls or what % chance they have of working. It may fit in with your playstyle, i can imagine the shouts of joy or mickey taking later if that 20% works or fails.

    Your potencial rule is imho utter nonsense. The reason being, it has little meaning to how 'magic rich' 'balancing' the item actually is, especially when comparing different types of magic items or how usefull it is in game.
    Actually have a look what the item does in ddo terms with ref to classic d&d and its revelance to the character using it.
    I'm not using 'real' numbers just showing as examples.

    The 'fluff' is all the added extra's for instance a str+4 with bluff+3 is actually only of use for the str part, the added extra's most often have nothing the character can use. The worst part of this is the vast majority of items you find will be like this. The potencial will be +5 instead of +3 because of this.

    spot/search +5 is an admin item! open lock +7 is usefull for opening doors and the odd locked treasure chest! the potencial on these items really stack up, and are a must have along with hide and move silent for a squishy rogue(they must be the class that dies the most in this game) to play as 'safe' as possible.

    str/int/wis + 4 will give +2 to damage/spells/search with added sp and with str you can carry more :-)

    that sword does and extra 1d6 damage and maybe an extra power which is usefull on a few monsters or has a small % of doing extra dam. How unbalancing would melee/ranged be with doing maybe doing upto double the damage they do now. Remember DR they won't work all the time.

    that staff does 10% extra damage to all spells and 30% to fire and maybe 1 other, the potencial increases because its a +2 weapon is irrevalent as its not used/or would would not 'unbalance'.

    Items with 'clickies' well thats easy just don't use the clicky and adjust potencial accordingly.

    that fireball wand does 5d6 and is 1 potencial !

    Named items have a vast array of extra's with 1 potencial !

    I'm sure if you 'advertised' the items you are interested in , reader's would give 'tavern whispers' of where they maybe found. "we need a ghost touch," "try the catacombs"

    Or you can just try quests on variable difficulty levels. That long quest will be just as challenging to complete on hard with your playtime limit. The most memorable quest i did while questing with you was Nash's farmstead on hard.
    On hard spells will hit more often and fighters will have less damage reduction. When monster's appear from nowhere or the gate closes you'll have more of a chance to survive.

    Have fun and come on you fighters help your arcanes out.
    Just awestruck, wether it be a Dragon flying overhead Stormreach, that glowing character who just zoomed in'n'out of the Pub, or that i can drink a Beholder under the table and best of all rescuing Damsels in distress.

  15. #775
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    Hmm...many good pieces of information (and some not so useful).
    The bigger "Boomstick" concept is the way we expected to compensate for increasing difficulty of Quests, but it's not the way we're going to answer it unless there's no other option.

    Thinking back, our "top" reasons for dying have been Traps, followed closely by Spell damage.
    Traps are "do or die". Either we solve for no damage or we die, simple as that.
    Cogs has been (for the most part) successful at finding/disarming traps, but it's been a struggle to keep him from being "just" a trap monkey. I know he doesn't want that.
    Spell damage is much the same. If you get hit, you're either dead or just about dead.

    It occures to me that both are a result of Elite Difficulty.
    We played last week 3 levels low (though admittedly THE worst Quest) and still the Traps and Casters were the bain.
    3 levels below merely meant more hit points for Melees and higher DC's and Spell points for our casters.
    Mitigating Trap and Spell damage remained mostly unchanged.

    Now we will test a lower difficulty 2 levels below Party.
    The main difference SHOULD be Trap DC and Damage (Cogoiler will LOVE that), and Spell Saves and Damage.
    We need to see this. The Party side of the equation needs to stay the same to judge the results.

    Traps and Spell damage deaths should not be common in a Quest unless it's due to blatent lack of common sense.
    At least IMO.

    There has been a new prospect to our "experiment" but she has not presented herself here in the forums.
    What is she waiting for?

  16. #776
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeadHero5 View Post
    (1) Wish I had kept better notes, but from recollection, we seem to die more often when separated for some reason; either strung out by the map, or isolated by closing gate traps. Stupidity is close behind. (Grondley and Kierik exchange rueful glances)

    (2) I like the concept of the heirloom item, I'd rather it came as a found item since we are playing a self funded party. But not quite yet, we are really starting to come together as a team, I think we can get through some more quests at the current level.

    (3) Another concern, we are soon going to face time constraints. We will have to go (I can't believe I'm saying this) faster to get through the longer content before dawn; and we can't just stop and wait for next week.
    #1 Totally agreed. Well said. Time will solve this.
    #2 This prompted an idea, for when the time comes, that will be more flexible for everyone.
    #3 This is a good concern and Quest Selection and/or alternative play times might be the answer. Some of us can spend more time in DDO, some can't. Some can, but can not commit to specifics. Work in progress.

    Keep up the thoughts.

  17. #777
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    Quote Originally Posted by zefjoe View Post
    - I think this hits close to the root of all our problems. While it is true that DDO throws too much MAGIC stuff, too much of powerful MAGIC stuff into the game, and that a TEAM of dedicated, like minded adventurers working together should and can tackle quests without alot of all that fluff, it is also apparent that there is a need for some "specialized" gear to help blunt the extremes of DEV HELL inherent in the quests.

    Think of it this way, the quests and the challenge they pose at various difficulties acts much like damage incoming from a mobs attack. Most of the time we are able to "deal" with that damage with our characters raw abilities and our playmanship. But, as we are seeing now, there are times when that incoming damage spikes - much like a critical hit - and we are EXTREMELY vulnerable at those times. The solution to critical hits of course was a Fortification belt. A specific ITEM designed to mitigate against that specific spike of "damage". So by analogy, specific ITEMs are needed to mitigate against specific moments of quests "difficulty".

    I am NOT saying we should abandon the magic potential = level paradigm that Tukcc has come up with. I think that is a stroke genius and it works very well to keep alot of the "FLUFF" out. However the small amount of playtime and the limited number of chests that are encountered PLUS the usual useless "junk" and the few OVERPOWERED items all contribute to our dearth of "specific ITEMs" that we actually really use.

    SO, after all that, my idea presented to the Fellowship - Heirloom ITEMs.

    ONE specific ITEM every four levels [which would only introduce 5 items by level 20] that we can acquire by the Vendors or Brokers or from our own hoards. Said ITEM must be presented to the Fellowship for approval. Said ITEM cannot have a magic potential more than half our level rounded up [so at level 7 we could have ONE ITEM with a +4 potential that does NOT count against our magic total limit. This way we can shore up our deficiencies, stick to the idea of limited magic, have an item that helps mitigate the "difficulty" spikes, and helps morale out by allowing that little extra reward.

    And when someone dies in quest, a "death penalty" could be that they lose a + on their Heirloom item or one of their other magic potential items or something along those lines.

    Well - this is all just so much spaghetti I'm throwing at the wall to see what sticks and make everyone go hunh?
    More good thoughts.

    With our trying lower Difficulty level, let's run the tests without penalty of a death. Aborting an adventure only upon concurrment.
    Magic rules (for the time being) unchanged.

  18. #778
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    There is a "standard" I'm looking for when playing an adventure which I've been studying in the 2nd Ed DMG.

    Summarizing, it means that in a balanced and appropriate Quest, the party should generally find....
    a few encounters that are solved without any injuries nor many resources.
    most of the encounters are solved with minor injuries and/or few resources.
    a tough encounter that tests the mettle of the party.
    and a final battle that (if begun with a relatively strong party) is solved with at least a fair amount of doubt that it would be successful.

    No trap should outright kill anyone who triggers it.
    Damage spells should not be able to kill a character UNLESS that character does not use common sense.
    Excluding the final battle, individual monsters should be able to be killed by 2 or 3 characters out of a 6 person party.

    Up to now EVERY encounter had the possibility of crippling the party, be that encounter a monster encounter or trap.

    We have established Elite as a reference level, now we can apply that same party to Hard Difficulty.
    We match the game to the party, not the other way round, right?

  19. #779
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    Default Game night was a new "Easy"

    Wednesdays game night was Depths of Despair and Doom, with a third of Prove your Worth.

    We have decided that with our restricted Magic guidelines, Elite would no longer be any fun.
    All along, Elite provided encounters (6 character party) that were at least an even match, and most times, by the the time we reached the final battle our resources were all but depleted.
    We have spent 4 levels doing it this way and frequently lost at least 1 character early on.
    Doing 5th Level Quests at Elite now causes a death 4 out of 5 times.

    Last night we started experimenting with Hard Difficulty 2 levels below Party Level.
    This actually seemed too easy as we completed all three with most resources intact.
    Next week we will try Hard Difficulty 1 level low and see what results that brings.

    On another note, I did some reading in the DMG's from 2nd Edition and Ed3.5.
    Specifically, to see how much Magic a typical NPC party might have.
    Ed 3.5 didn't use a table or percentage chance, but the average for a 7th level character was 2 to 3 +1 items!
    Compared with 2nd Ed, which suggested 70% 3 times for a +1 item each, 50% 2 times for a +3 item each and a 10% 1 time for a +5.
    Our Magic "Potential" guidelines pretty much live up to the spirit of this.
    The average of three NPC's gave these results: (3) +1 items and (1) +3 item for a total of (6) potentials for a 7th level character.

    If we accept this as "D&D" standards, we now have to adjust the difficulty of a Quest to where Encounters are consistantly winable while only expending 20-30% of our resources on each one until the Final Battle.

    Note that changing to Hard Difficulty, Traps and Monster lethality will drop, and I suspect character Prestige abilities MAY become over-powered.
    Last edited by intruder1; 01-18-2013 at 11:47 AM.

  20. #780
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    Default Link to new Augment system

    In case you haven't read it........

    http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=404669

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