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  1. #741
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    Default Of Wraiths.....

    Tukcc settled himself on the chair next to the table. The aged Wizard sits across from him, flipping pages of an old manuscript.
    "This text is quite old, but nonetheless valuable" spoke the Wizard.
    "It is the Chronicle of Nyez, an associate of mine.”
    “He describes his encounters with the class of Undead we call Wraiths.”

    “The Common knowledge about Wraiths I will not review.”
    “What isn’t commonly known is the specifics of combating them”

    (Read from the journal of Nyez….)
    “We have come to this dark place in search of the entity called a Wraith.”
    “I am fearful of our ability to best it, and I also fear for our Souls, for those who are struck down by these vile creatures are suffered to raise as a Wraith themselves, forever in service to the original Wraith.”

    “In our first encounter, the spirit appeared from nowhere. It immediately attacked the Fighter leading the Group.”
    “The attacks were merely bashing strikes, as if by two hammers. “
    “The Warrior held his Tower Shield between him and it and the Shield took much of the damage.”
    “The thing howled as it pummeled his shield.”

    “After the Fighter gained his bearing, he began striking at the Shade with his sword.”
    “His first strike evidentially injured the creature, because it moved slightly and practically faded from sight.”
    “Subsequent strikes by the sword passed harmlessly thru the air”
    “Arcane Spells Magic Missile seemed to damage the creature, as did Niac’s Frost Ray.”
    “When our fighter attacked the creature, he dropped his Shield. That is when the Shade made contact with him and affected him it’s Touch.”
    “Afterwards, the fighter said it felt as if life was being sucked from his body.”

    Discovered facts about certain classes of the Undead.....

    Wraiths are considered 2 levels above their CR for purposes of Turning.
    Wraiths deal Bludgeon Damage. Approx 8-12 at CR 8 and 15-20 at CR14
    Incorporeal State means 50% Concealment. Each time you melee attack, you must first best 50 on a d100 or your attack cuts thin air.
    A Ghost Touch weapon negates Incorporeal Concealment, but does not counter Damage Reduction.
    Lingering Touch attacks with damage to Wisdom and Constitution. 2 separate attacks, each with saving throw.
    Lingering Touch can be blocked with a shield.
    Wraiths can be affected by Cold Damage.
    Wraiths can be injured by normal weapons, but they have a DR to physical damage.
    Armor Class does protect from Wraiths Bludgeon attack, but not Lingering Touch.
    Wraiths MAY have a different DR type between Normal and Elite. It seemed to have 50% DR/Magic on Normal Difficulty and a flat DR of around 12-14 on Elite.
    On Normal, each melee attack seemed to be roughly cut in half. Combat report said “you scored 3 points damage after 3 points were taken with Damage Reduction/Magic”
    On Elite, it would be “you scored no damage because 8 points were taken with Damage Reduction.”
    Last edited by intruder1; 12-30-2012 at 07:22 AM.

  2. #742
    Community Member zefjoe's Avatar
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    Default Of Wraiths and Spectres cont.

    Calibhan sits and pours over the findings made by Tukcc. Much of it matched the lore Calibhan had dredged up. The specific modes of attack were new to Calibhan however and it gives Calibhan an idea. Bludgeoning damage - mitigated by the active use of a shield. Interesting. And Constitution and Wisdom damage with Lingering Touch. Calibhan, with his dwarf heritage, has great Constitution, and with his Cleric training, considerable Wisdom (though some would question that ;0). Calibhan could withstand the loss of some CON and WIS. And of the group Calibhan has the most hitpoints, again leaving plenty to lose. The Wraith may have DR to normal weapon damage, but against magic ???.

    Calibhan presents an idea to the Fellowship, to wit, when the Wraiths appear, its Calibhan they will encounter first, and to ensure that, Calibhan can attack using the spells Cure Moderate Wounds and Divine Vengeance [The divine power of an angry deity imposes a punishment in the form of a sharp, spiritual blow to the target, dealing 1d3+3 points of good damage per caster level (Maximum damage 10d3+30.) if the target is Undead. Cali = 3d3 +9. A successful Will save reduces this damage by half] to strike down upon them. That should make Calibhan the most hated (for the moment). Then, turtled up behind a stout shield, withstands the wrath of the Wraith while the Fellowship combines their might on its flanks to strike it down. If Calibhans health should drop to quickly he should be able to quaff aqua vitae healing draughts while blocking, fast enough to keep from dying at least. And Calibhan can strike down with said spells whenever the Wraith should turn to attack the others. It's worth a try at the least. At the worst, Cogs will have to carry the heavy body of the dwarf out of the dungeon [he is the biggest of the group after all ]. Not to worry Cogs, Calibhan dead only weighs a "stone". HAHAHAHAhahahahah. Chuckle, snort.

  3. #743
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    Comparison
    Just awestruck, wether it be a Dragon flying overhead Stormreach, that glowing character who just zoomed in'n'out of the Pub, or that i can drink a Beholder under the table and best of all rescuing Damsels in distress.

  4. #744
    Community Member Fricko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlowDM View Post
    Comparison
    Ummm... Does that *drool* come in *slobber* a rapier, *drip* or shortsword?

  5. #745
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fricko View Post
    Ummm... Does that *drool* come in *slobber* a rapier, *drip* or shortsword?
    That would be a "Divine Gift" indeed.

  6. #746
    Community Member zefjoe's Avatar
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    Default Calibhan OOC

    Yup, sure does. And you have just as much chance of pulling it out of a chest as hitting the lotto. Sorry Cogs. The Longsword is an end reward for the Catacombs. There are two other weapons of Ghost Touch available at the end of the quest chain. A Dagger *wicked, wicked grin* and Handwraps. Question, since I've never completed a quest chain with others before (solo only) does everyone get their own full item end reward inventory to choose from or does everyone choose from the same inventory like a chest?

  7. #747
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    Default

    Tukcc nods in agreement with the Dark Skinned Dwarf.
    "Possibly....quite possibly."

    "It also occures to me that what we may need is but a basic "enchantment" on a weapon of any sort."
    "If we used anything that had an enchantment on it, that might prove to be enough to strike true."

    "None have seen an item endowed with the ability to reach into the Ether, but maybe using anything Magical might make a difference."

    "Are not Wands and Scepters used in a pinch capable of inflicting injury?"

  8. #748
    Community Member zefjoe's Avatar
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    Default Calibhan hit by a Wraiths Wisdom drain...

    "Calibhan is not sure what the honorable Tukcc is meaning. Calibhan is no purist, not according to the House's of Mror Holds *grimace*, he would as lief wield a spoon as soon as a great axe did it but have Ghost Touch on it. His warcry could then be SPOOOOON! As for wands, we could arm ourselves with such but 'twould count for magic items, in addition to not inflicting the same damage as if the magic were wielded by Grondley or Kierik."

  9. #749
    Community Member Fricko's Avatar
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    *Cogs goes wandering from tavern, to tavern, seeking the Holy Ghost Touch Tankard of Disruption*

    "I shall drink until I find what I seek! Olladra bless me with luck and plenty... at least I'll get plenty of ale!"

  10. #750
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    Default Plenty of things to do.....

    While we're pondering how best to "best" the undead.

    There are 6 Wilderness areas and half a dozen Quests that wait for our visits.

    We concentrate on adventures that we're best equiped to handle.

    Our progress the last 4 weeks in pretty much normal, even with the negative results from a night or so.
    Last edited by intruder1; 12-31-2012 at 01:01 PM.

  11. #751
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    Call to Arms!
    We're off to Tangleroot tonight.
    Last edited by intruder1; 01-02-2013 at 06:52 PM.

  12. #752
    Community Member Fedora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    Call to Arms!
    We're off to Tangleroot tonight.
    Does your play style allow selling things in the AH? If so, Fragrant Drowshoods found in Tangleroot can make you wealthy.

  13. #753
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    Quote Originally Posted by zefjoe View Post
    Yup, sure does. And you have just as much chance of pulling it out of a chest as hitting the lotto. Sorry Cogs. The Longsword is an end reward for the Catacombs. There are two other weapons of Ghost Touch available at the end of the quest chain. A Dagger *wicked, wicked grin* and Handwraps. Question, since I've never completed a quest chain with others before (solo only) does everyone get their own full item end reward inventory to choose from or does everyone choose from the same inventory like a chest?
    Characters get their own individual end reward list which will/may be different for everyone . With catacombs that will be several named items aswell as normal items. You normally don't get every named/special item in end reward list. I know some quests/chains give a Full list if repeated 3 times. Thats why some quests/chains are often repeated several times so a character can get that 'sword' they were after.

    As my prevoius pic shows, i would say the named catacombs sword has 1 potencial and i think better than the plus 3 potencial ghost touch item. You all know named items are much sort after by everyone but also are most often bound to character/account on aquire or equip.

    Your arcanes seem to be doing the most hurt maybe its time your melee's stepped upto the mark aswell. No offence intended. What i mean is your arcanes have taken some enhancements that increase damage/spell pen. While i would think your melee's are doing more or less the same damage at (lev7 ?) as they were at level 1(again no offence as i don't know about your new members or how things have changed). A monster is going to attack the character doing the most damage without an intimi tank melee. You hit the nail on the head with DR and weapons with a litlle added extra(fire touch for instance). You lose 8hp damage because of DR well 1d6 fire will help cancell that out a little.

    A level 7 melee in my pnp d&d game would have something a lot better than a plus 1 sword!!!! . Never mind named items . Has any of you ever seen a level 12 greensteel weapon, I have a couple of times and Cogs would'nt just drool he'd have a seizure :-), now they i consider overpowered and i would say that because i doubt i'll ever manage to get 1.


    Also the 'monster/'s appeared out of nowhere' will happen sometimes with ever increasing deadliness.
    Last edited by SlowDM; 01-05-2013 at 07:42 AM.
    Just awestruck, wether it be a Dragon flying overhead Stormreach, that glowing character who just zoomed in'n'out of the Pub, or that i can drink a Beholder under the table and best of all rescuing Damsels in distress.

  14. #754
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    Quote Originally Posted by kerikofgreyhawk
    ?
    This is discussion about "toons", not players. No offense intended.

    Slowdm's point about the damage output of the arcanes vs. the melees is on target - if anything, he's understated it. I don't think the group as a whole really gets how unbalanced the damage output is between Kierik/Grondley vs. everyone else.

    The kill count is a useless metric. I can't tell you the number of times I've hit something with scorching ray and taken its hp down to 10% and then watched a melee finish it off. Thats pretty much how melees get their kills. If only Turbine showed % of total hit point damage as a metric instead of kill count.

    My point is that our underlying problem isn't about items. Its about builds.
    1) Grondley and Kierik have optimized arcane builds.
    2) Cogs has a solid rogue build (as good as it gets without items).
    3) A ranger without an excellent bow is kinda pointless.
    4) A 3/4 fighter-cleric is pointless.
    5) A 3/3/1 fighter/cleric/rogue is really pointless.

    How to resolve this?

  15. #755
    Community Member zefjoe's Avatar
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    Default Calibhan OOC

    The resolution to the "build" issue is the same resolution that all teams face though. It's not really a 'toon issue. Whether it is a group of power gamers with optimized toons, a group of gimps or mixed bag like what we have, the key is learning the strengths and weaknesses of each other - as both players and characters, learning how we each can bring something to the game, learning how to mesh and execute.

    Hell yes the arcanes are supercharged destroyers. They will only grow stronger as they level. BUT, with our style of gameplay they are even MORE vulnerable to attack, especially by groups of creatures since they have the inherent squishyness of arcanes in spades without GREAT GEAR to mitigate it. Hell yes the melees lack serious damage capacity. BUT that wouldn't change significantly with a pure or optimized fighter or barbarian build. A pure build would be better than the multiclass yes but, STILL not in league with a pure arcane. I have read many a post here in the forums of veteran play and builds, I have rolled many a build and played up to level 6-8 to find out what my playstyle likes and dislikes are. There is a point right there at the first prestige level were an arcane begins to come into his power. Keirik and Grondley are beginning to achieve that. For a melee warrior its an uphill battle all the way. I can imagine it's like that to level 20. For a melee to put out as much damage as a pure arcane, would require not just an optimized build but alot of HIGH POWER GEAR. Something WE will not achieve even to level 20.

    I brought out Calibhan from an early retirement mainly due to him being the only adventurer that was currently at the same level as the others with a suitable multiclass split. Multiclass, for me, gives much more of a challenge and reward since I usually (used to) play solo. [I know the posts were and are not criticisms of, I'm just giving background info for the readership at large]. He is not optimized for a PARTY NICHE. Nor is he optimized for solo play, which is why he was in retirement.

    But as an approximation of a what an average RP adventurer is, with a traumatic background learning a hodgepodge of skills from different sources and then teaming up with a group of like adventurers willing to share the experience of questing together, he is PERFECT.

    He is flawed. I am flawed. He is learning how his group fights. He has made mistakes. Calibhan and I have spent alot of time on our own. Creature hate had no focus but us, we did not have to chase about the field of battle willy-nilly trying to close with the aggressors. Calibhan and I must learn to stay next to the casters to immediately attack the nearest mob. Calibhan and I must also learn when to keep up with Cogs who puts himself out there scouting for danger so that he is not isolated when something unexpected happens and he is cut off from us. Calibhan and I must also learn that Elite difficulty can be seductively sly. Some mobs are relatively easy to cut down - even in the chaos of battle. Others - like casters! - are much more deadly - even in the chaos of battle. One wrong decision - to flank a pair of casters that SEEM to be concentrating on the group behind you - and then be HELD with blue swirls playing about you while a scorching ray and a couple of hits from hobbies cut you down in less than 5 seconds, is just that - A BAD DECISION. Live and learn.

    The group has two new members. Each part of the group, Original Four and New Two are still learning how to work together. Our tactics have to evolve to the new dynamics of our group play, the increasing difficulty of the quests and the scarcity of high power equipment. It's going to take some time at just TWO hours a WEEK. The main thing is for us to keep on doing what we do. Adventure - make mistakes/misadventures - discuss m/m - brainstorm how to correct m/m - talk about our ideas for change - vote on change - try change or not [i.e Adventure the next week].

    Tukcc has said on occasion that we all play the character that we wanted. True and not true. Some characters must change from the original vision to mesh better with the group or to stay true to the Fellowship code. That is growth. As we all level up and learn more about our characters abilities and shortcomings we can see things that we might wish could be changed but are not applicable for us. Nothing says that we can't go as far as we can with these adventurers, and when it becomes much too disappointing to continue with them, that we can't TRY AGAIN, perhaps with some addendums to the code to allow heirloom gear at agreed upon level marks, with builds and abilities that we know how we want to be and can GROW them accordingly, knowing what quests to concentrate on for the most fun AND reward. Hundreds, if not thousands, of players grind through DDO quests for better gear - for better gear crafting elements - for TP. Endless grind chasing a brass ring.

    We should be willing to put in a little grind time chasing FUN.

    Sorry for the wall of text. Hope it doesn't come across to preachy. I really, really like the idea of playing with a static group that values challenge as part of the FUN and is willing to limit itself in a game without limits to achieve that.

  16. #756
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    Phew i allways worry that my posts are taken the wrong way(even more now that i have nothing to do with you :-). A combination of being english a non 'beat about the bush' manner has is the past caused a little offence.

    Arcanes are the most powerful character's in game yes maybe but then why are there so many fighter type players ? I've certainly seen melee's/archer's kill and cause massive amounts of hurt. Indeed its the fighters who battle the way to the shrine for the 'empty' arcanes/divines. The fighters who 'stole' your kills probably saved you from being on the enemies kill count :-) I remember doing(healer) a raid and was told "keep the 2 monks alive at all costs", guess what i had to let an arcane die.
    Like arcanes, melee/ranged have enhancements/feats to increase power, e.g. Cleave, weapon specialization. Its certainly more difficult with multiclass. I know the items thing 'grinds' on a bit but just think Mighty Kierik And Ghastly Grondley have a Wand(Weapon) that does lets guess 5d6 damage and melee/ranged have something that does 1d6( I hope that's a big enough gap Kierik *grins*). Most 'toons' at your level have a Blacksmith Shop in their Backpack. 'What use is a ranger without a bow' . Its great to read about about your exploits. You are all having great FUN trying all manner of hotch potch idea's, exactly the way 'it' used to be.

    You'l like these amusing and apt quick clips from an old game, sure to make you laugh
    Arcanes Rule
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxcNkwjC_7k
    Or do they
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Pehx2lwnKY
    Last edited by SlowDM; 01-06-2013 at 10:06 AM.
    Just awestruck, wether it be a Dragon flying overhead Stormreach, that glowing character who just zoomed in'n'out of the Pub, or that i can drink a Beholder under the table and best of all rescuing Damsels in distress.

  17. #757
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    This may be a bit odd, but the "Art" of matching Players and Adventure Modules can be broken down into a sort of Math equation.
    The sum of a party's strengths and weaknesses SHOULD be equal or greater than the sum of a Module (Quest) times it's difficulty level.
    This is VERY generalistic, but works.
    It is the job of this "experiment" to try to evaluate each variable in order to make the equation "True".
    The Player side is limited to Classic D&D.

    Up to now, the variables of the Players have been able to keep the equation True.
    Now the variable "Quest" is in question, followed by the Variable "Difficulty".
    Last edited by intruder1; 01-06-2013 at 02:35 PM.

  18. #758
    Community Member LeadHero5's Avatar
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    Default Wand use and Future balance

    Another Tavern evening spent plotting and scheming...

    "How capable of wand use are you, Tukcc and Calibhan? Could you use nimbus of light or deific vengeance wands instead of weapons?" asked Grondley.

    Right now we have set equipment levels and the desire to run quests on elite but 2 levels down. Over time, we have gradually increased our equipment to match the tougher quests. Maybe it's time to give our equipment another little bump. Looming in our future are more kinds of enemy damage mitigation that we will have to overcome. At the level we are questing in, there is no single offense, magic or weapon, that is equally effective against all foes; and it will only get worse.

    Another thing that will help a little is for divine healing to be used only during combat. As much as possible we should use potions.

    It's going on 9 months since I joined this traveling circus, I mean intrepid band of explorers. The thought of fixing Tuk and Cal with a rebuild is daunting. I don't know much about LR or what it would cost the realatars behind the characters in $. I do know that this little 'experiment' has to be fun for everyone and I will support any changes that may be made by anyone with my time and resources.
    Last edited by LeadHero5; 01-08-2013 at 11:14 PM.


    Originally posted by Aeryyn "I don't play this game for xp/min, I play for fun/hour. "

  19. #759
    Community Member Fedora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeadHero5 View Post
    The thought of fixing Tuk and Cal with a rebuild is daunting. I don't know much about LR or what it would cost the realatars behind the characters in $. I do know that this little 'experiment' has to be fun for everyone and I will support any changes that may be made by anyone with my time and resources.
    Well there are (to the best of my understanding) a few options, with varying costs.

    One is a FREE lesser resurrect by talking to one of the NPCs (I'd have to check the wiki but I think its in House J or P). With a lesser res you essentially get to completely rebuild your character up to it's current level in one fell swoop. Must be same class(es), same name, same alignment. But you can respec the stats (STR, DEX, etc), and re-choose all your feats, skills, and enhancements.

    Another less dramatic option is to just reset your enhancements. Pay some plat to a trainer and you get all your action points back (that you spent on enhancements) and reselect your enhancements. You could combine this option with the free feat exchange from Fred in House J for a decent overhaul.

    Last option (which will cost mega plat in AH or TP in DDO store) is to get a lesser/greater wooden heart with a "+" (+1, +3, or +5 I think). These let you do essentially the exact same thing as the free lesser res, but you can also choose different classes (1 change per plus). So if you were a Ranger4/Cleric3, you could use a +3 heart to change to (for example) a Ranger 7 (3 class changes), or a Ranger6/Cleric1 (2 class changes), or even a Ranger6/Fighter1 (3 changes).

    The difference between a Lesser/Greater heart is the lesser keeps your original point build, while a greater will allow you to res from a 28 point build to a 32 point build.

    Anyone that knows more about this stuff please feel free to correct me.

    PS - Sorry for all the edits, correcting typos and such.
    Last edited by Fedora; 01-08-2013 at 01:59 PM.

  20. #760
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    As far as I know, rebuilds are not even on the table.
    Kierik hinted he was interested, but that's all.
    (Anyway, changing Tukcc into a Paladin would cost just over 4000 TP's.)

    The decision to use Elite minus 2 levels was chosen with the purpose of benchmarking our ability.
    It will make more sense trying either Hard Difficulty or minus 3 levels rather than adding Magic Items.

    The present magic system seems to match up good with information in the 2nd Ed DMG.
    Let's try to keep it that way.

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