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  1. #721
    Community Member Fricko's Avatar
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    Default ... carrying the keys.

    zfjoe (AKA Calibhan) said, "But most importantly I want the Fellowship to know that I'm having a great time. I look forward to every Wed night and will check in on Calibhan a couple of times a week just to "go over the check list", so to speak. I think each and every one of us is a vital part of the success of the group and even when things go in the crapper I'm not disappointed. Calibhan and I of a like mind on this, aren't we Cali. Yes we are."

    You were warned about the riot of laughter, and the sore ribs and grin muscles, prior to joining! Fricko and Cogs are pleased to see you are having a great time as well, although it sometimes seem the inmates of the asylum have taken control, with the head Nutcase carrying the keys! *Grins at intruder1*

    Zfjoe also has some interesting solutions to our current set of problems. I can see Cogs three weapon set, which includes TWF and a crossbow, being able to deal fire, cold, and undead/incorporeal disruption, and perhaps keep the "Magic Use/Level" intact. It would either rely on a great deal of luck from endrewards and chests, or one-time "reward for being a good boy" shopping trip to AH.

    *grins, as he watches intruder1 squirm and grimace!*

    =

    I agree, no permadeath, PLEASE! *Cogs shudders and orders more ale at the thought!*
    Last edited by Fricko; 12-28-2012 at 09:16 AM.

  2. #722
    Community Member Fricko's Avatar
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    Default Friends and support.. Thank you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora View Post
    Sounds like you guys are having a blast (no pun intended with regards to the exploding barrel lol).

    I think a suggestion in keeping with the spirit of PnP D&D would be (as suggested by the above poster) that when embarking on a quest that includes a creature resistant to normal damage, someone in the party might be allowed to obtain an "extra" weapon capable of dealing with said creature(s). How you obtain the weapon is up to you (AH purchase, vendor, or be allowed to keep one you find in a quest above and beyond the 1 per level limitation) but ONLY to be used for that quest, after which it must be returned.

    The story line could be that a particular NPC that wants the quest accomplished has given you access to a "special" weapon (perhaps for a cost/deposit to ensure it's safe return) in order that the quest might be accomplished.

    ======
    The House Deniath officer who has retained your services for the undertaking looks at you with a gaze of cold stone. "I must offer you fair warning. The last patrol I sent down was nearly wiped out. Only three returned out of the nine man team that went in and they had burns covering much of their body. They spoke of a..... creature. A thing of living fire. It mearly hissed with evil laughter at the swords and axes my men weilded against it."

    His cold gaze turns somewhat thoughtful as he continues. "I have a an old aquaintence, a mentor really, a warrior from the last war long since retired. He spoke to me of a weapon that might be effective against such a creature. He said that just recently he was cleaning out his old war chest and, having need of some coin for a journey he would like to take, reluctantly pawned it over at the Fare Trades. I am sure he would love to have it back. If you offer to redeem it for him, he might be willing to tell you what the weapon looks like. I am sure if you promise to return it to him undamaged he would be more than willing to let you use it for a while".
    @Fedora (and all the others!)- Thank you for your time, and efforts to help resolve issues we face, and for your ideas and comments that have served us so well in developing this wonderfully entertaining experiment. May Olladra Bless you all with +4 Supreme Tomes!

    In a real PnP game, the DM would probably see that a party was not sent into an impossible situation to start with. In my old game, there was always a solution, even if not always obvious, and it was always possible to complete what was started. All adventures were pieces in a chain that was designed (in a world of my own creation, which helped!) to take the party from level one, across mountians, rivers, continents, and wide seas, to eventually become Heros in the halls of power in a distant future.

    Alas! Our "DM" in the game is not so accomodating. Fedora's idea has merit, and should be discussed at our next tavern funeral wake... er... adventure.

  3. #723
    Community Member Fedora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fricko View Post
    Alas! Our "DM" in the game is not so accomodating. Fedora's idea has merit, and should be discussed at our next tavern funeral wake... er... adventure.
    Has your group yet attempted "Proof is in the Poison"? It's a level 5 quest if I recall correctly. Good luck with that one! lol

    I ran it with my level 7 (Ranger 5/Fighter 2) and a level 5 hireling cleric ON CASUAL. My toon has no self imposed limitations on gear.

    My hireling got killed and I had to leave her by a rest shrine, only summoning her for the last battle. My toon nearly died twice, ended up using a couple cure serious pots and about 20-25 charges from a wand of cure moderate. I was running with a ring of fire resist 10 and kept buffed the whole time with a resist acid (wand).

    It took me 64 minutes to complete. :shock:

    That said - the challenge is half the fun, right?
    Last edited by Fedora; 12-28-2012 at 09:50 AM.

  4. #724
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    It was stated previously that once we began 5th level quests we would find things more tricky.
    In a lot of cases, we are finding this true.

    Of the six of us, 3 have never seen the quests beforehand. (Me being one)
    I regard this as good. Advance knowledge (or the lack thereof) is just what we need.

    All of you have specialized in your character. This makes you excel in some things and weaker in others.
    That's the choices you made, and that's fine too.

    Of the 2 dungeons, Discord and Doom, Discord proved to be the easiest...why?
    No traps and No Fire Creatures.

    Insantity proved to be unobtainable....why?
    None of us had the turning power and we couldn't dispatch the undead before they took at least one of us down.
    And the loss of even one would doom the adventure.

    So....this group can not handle Undead other than the weakest.....nor can it handle Fire Creatures other than the weakest.

    Isn't that what we're supposed to be doing here, trying to figure out if D&D can be played here.

    If it's progression you're interested in, we have done well to this point. Since our inception, we have progressed at 1 level every 10-12 or so game nights.

    Can we agree that there may be quests we will never be capable of completing?

    Go ahead and tear this post apart. I want to hear your oppinions.
    Last edited by intruder1; 12-28-2012 at 10:41 AM.

  5. #725
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora View Post
    Has your group yet attempted "Proof is in the Poison"? It's a level 5 quest if I recall correctly. Good luck with that one! lol

    I ran it with my level 7 (Ranger 5/Fighter 2) and a level 5 hireling cleric ON CASUAL. My toon has no self imposed limitations on gear.

    My hireling got killed and I had to leave her by a rest shrine, only summoning her for the last battle. My toon nearly died twice, ended up using a couple cure serious pots and about 20-25 charges from a wand of cure moderate. I was running with a ring of fire resist 10 and kept buffed the whole time with a resist acid (wand).

    It took me 64 minutes to complete. :shock:

    That said - the challenge is half the fun, right?
    Yes that quest was known by those who had attempted it beforehand, and it was agreed not to attempt it.

    It is a good example that some quests are not suitable.

  6. #726
    Community Member Fedora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    Yes that quest was known by those who had attempted it beforehand, and it was agreed not to attempt it.

    It is a good example that some quests are not suitable.
    I think you could do it - but you would need to be several levels higher than the quest. You would need someone that could wipe out multiple enemies quickly (a good sorc or wizard probably) because when you encounter a mob full of grease spewing iron defenders that knock down your melees while quickfoot fighters chop away at them and 3-4 casters launching acid attacks.... Well I probably gave away too much.

    Anyway if I didn't already have characters on 3 servers I would be tempted to join you. Currently I do not have a mike (mich) though. I have so far been a career-solo'er but your kind of group looks fun.

  7. #727
    Community Member Fedora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    Isn't that what we're supposed to be doing here, trying to figure out D&D can be played here.
    Not trying to take too much liberty here with my comments, so please don't take this as criticism or anything. I just find your play style intriguing and interesting so thought I would chime in.

    Is it not true that in D&D there was ALWAYS a way to complete a given quest? The question is really about enjoying the game and the challenge, correct? So by making a way (as in my scenario a few posts back) to actually complete a quest aren't you adding some fun/enjoyment to the experience by a simple one-time (or per quest requiring a special item) tweak of the group's self imposed restrictions on equipment? It's not like it would give you an auto-complete ticket to victory. One person in the group having a single item specific to the quest at hand is STILL difficult given your other limitation, and by allowing it you get to explore more content and encounter new challenges.

    Just something to think about for you and your group.

  8. #728
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora View Post
    Not trying to take too much liberty here with my comments, so please don't take this as criticism or anything. I just find your play style intriguing and interesting so thought I would chime in.

    Is it not true that in D&D there was ALWAYS a way to complete a given quest? The question is really about enjoying the game and the challenge, correct? So by making a way (as in my scenario a few posts back) to actually complete a quest aren't you adding some fun/enjoyment to the experience by a simple one-time (or per quest requiring a special item) tweak of the group's self imposed restrictions on equipment? It's not like it would give you an auto-complete ticket to victory. One person in the group having a single item specific to the quest at hand is STILL difficult given your other limitation, and by allowing it you get to explore more content and encounter new challenges.

    Just something to think about for you and your group.
    Good ideas Fedora. None of which is ignored out of hand.
    As we all know, our group will try it's darndest to handle what situations it faces, but after all is said, we WILL make allowances for certain situations.

    Our Rogue can not possibly have any chance at Traps with our playstyle without the "Admin" item that gives +5 Spot and Search. He gets that outside of our restrictions.
    The same goes for the Korthos "Sets" and our Spellcasters "Apprentice Robes".

    They were things we tested and determined were neccessary for the good of our playstyle.

    Since our attempts at Insanity, I have tested and concluded that even a 7th Level Cleric using the +4 turning level spell could not do anything against the CR14 Wraiths in an Elite Difficulty Quest.
    Even testing Delaria Tomb proved futile.

    Without serious Turning Magic, Elite will prove too difficult right now.
    This does not exclude trying again at a higher level.
    Last edited by intruder1; 12-28-2012 at 10:59 AM.

  9. #729
    Community Member Fedora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    Without serious Turning Magic, Elite will prove too difficult right now.
    This does not exclude trying again at a higher level.
    This just reminded me that you guys do quests at two levels lower but on elite.

    Just my observations here - a level 5 quest on hard is generally harder than a level 6 quest on normal. Likewise a level 5 quest on elite is generally harder than a level 7 quest on normal.

    In other words, even though they are compensated as +1 or +2 levels, I find the difficulty to be tougher than that. I'd be willing to bet you would fare better in many cases by doing quests at-level on normal, unless your goal is max favor and xp.

  10. #730
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    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post

    Since our attempts at Insanity, I have tested and concluded that even a 7th Level Cleric using the +4 turning level spell could not do anything against the CR14 Wraiths in an Elite Difficulty Quest.
    Even testing Delaria Tomb proved futile.

    Without serious Turning Magic, Elite will prove too difficult right now.
    This does not exclude trying again at a higher level.

    At 7thlevel most clerics would just use radiant burst to both harm the wraiths/undead and heal the party's hps and stat damage. Without a radiant servant and without any ghost touch weapons, incorporeals are going to be extremely difficult for your group. Especially incorporeals that do stat damage since you aren't allowed to purchase lesser restore potions. (how does your group deal with stat damage btw?)


    However, your wizard has access to wall of fire so even with your group's gear restrictions you have the tools you need to beat this quest on elite, you just don't have your tactics down quite yet. Stick with it. You'll get it.

  11. #731
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    At 7thlevel most clerics would just use radiant burst to both harm the wraiths/undead and heal the party's hps and stat damage. Without a radiant servant and without any ghost touch weapons, incorporeals are going to be extremely difficult for your group. Especially incorporeals that do stat damage since you aren't allowed to purchase lesser restore potions. (how does your group deal with stat damage btw?)


    However, your wizard has access to wall of fire so even with your group's gear restrictions you have the tools you need to beat this quest on elite, you just don't have your tactics down quite yet. Stick with it. You'll get it.
    The last sentence sums it up quite well, thanks.
    Every wall that has blocked our path was eventually solved with Tactics.

    Our clerics are Multi-Classed to boot. I am 4th Level and Cal is 3rd.
    Specialization is not an option.

  12. #732
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora View Post
    This just reminded me that you guys do quests at two levels lower but on elite.

    Just my observations here - a level 5 quest on hard is generally harder than a level 6 quest on normal. Likewise a level 5 quest on elite is generally harder than a level 7 quest on normal.

    In other words, even though they are compensated as +1 or +2 levels, I find the difficulty to be tougher than that. I'd be willing to bet you would fare better in many cases by doing quests at-level on normal, unless your goal is max favor and xp.
    That is one of our "fall back" options for just such a circumstance, but only after exhausting all other ideas.

  13. #733
    Community Member Fricko's Avatar
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    Default It's a BIG World!

    =

    It's a BIG World, for which we can thank Turbine and their DDO Dev's for enormous content. We have an intriguing and complex concept to develop and define in that world not designed for us. We have intruder1 to thank (or curse!) for that.

    We do not have a wise and "all-knowing" DM to utilize NPCs, farmers, wandering rangers, the old trader in his caravan, or descriptions of crossroad signs to guide us, there-by providing subtle hints as to where the party should go next, or a firm, even irresistible, shove to get them back on track when they stray away from the trail leading up toward the Nasty Ogre Under the Mountain.

    What we /do/ have is a very diverse and (besides an ale soaked Cogs) competent collection of adventurers. The world we inhabit is filled with potential quests, most of which we may be able to complete intact. Some we will recover from in time, with much ale to blunt horrid memories of the disaster!

    None we attempt will /ever/ be worthless, or a waste of time!

    Every quest attempted will result in a rising learning curve, and advancement toward the ability to better deal with foes through spells, skills, enhancements, feats, and more magic slots to fill!

    The future beckons, but does so with a skeletal finger and a grinning skull, red eyes glowing with amusement. We shall advance into that future, and see what we find lurking there!

    =

  14. #734
    Community Member zefjoe's Avatar
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    Default Calibhan OOC

    Thanks for the feedback Postumus and Fedora. It's a really interesting position for me to be in; to be so recently inducted into the Fellowship (I wonder if Cogs somehow slipped me a mickey that first night of rounds of drink? I seem to remember Tukcc running around in his burlap undies at the end of the quest O.o?) When I first came across this thread and began reading it I was intrigued like both of you. I had left DDO for over a year because I had tired of running solo and even the couple Guilds I joined were little better than PUG's (shudder). Every once in a while I would look into the Forums (nostalgia I guess). The "experiment" as our intrepid leader calls it, was just what I had been looking for. I just happened to have an old (actually my second rolled) adventurer at just the right level and that Wed night shed everything but armor and weapon and checked for Tukcc in game. And then I met the rest of the group. And was warned that I would be embarking on wild adventure with a NOT normal group and I would be changed forever (Cogs what the hell did you put in my ale!) Anyhow reading about their difficulties and group dynamics was like reading a novel (LoTR springs to mind). Now being in the group is like being IN the novel. I feel honored.

    As for the recent suggestions, all valid. I think the Fellowship will find that the gestalt of difficulty will be greater than the sum total of the various mobs in a quest as we get into higher level content. We may have to adjust by doing some quests three levels down at Elite instead of two or quests at level on Hard or even combinations thereof. Our goal (AFAIK) is not about gaining XP or favor or even leveling but CHALLENGE and FUN. We get plenty of both.

    I don't suggest purchasing those special weapons "off the cuff" at the AH. But some quests have certain specific weapons as end rewards, and even if they are at 3-4 levels below us and would be easy to go through, we can raise the challenge so to speak by breaking into teams of two. Just an idea for the others to debate on. Also as a thought (taking Fedoras snippet of story) a benefactor could loan/donate some weapons of suitable type (i.e Ghost Touch, Elemental Bane - whatever - with NO MORE than a +2 potential) to Tukcc to approve. After adventuring with the Fellowship and seeing us in action I have no doubt that we can advance to level 20. We may not be doing raids but what quests we will be doing will be FUN. And when we all TR and start anew it will get even BETTER!

  15. #735
    Community Member SerCana's Avatar
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    I have enjoyed reading the posts and watching as y'all figure out how to overcome difficulties. I agree with all that have said, it is about the journey. That is really what D&D was created to be; to live an epic story. Like Fedora, I would definitely like to try playing this style.

    So if there are any openings (not likely) or if others who have been following this would like to try this concept, please send me a message. I would love to try it.

    Good Luck and Good Gaming.
    Talk low, talk slow, and don’t talk too much.

  16. #736
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    Quote Originally Posted by kerikofgreyhawk
    Only a couple comments to share:

    1. I agree with Tukcc and Posthumus about using tactics rather than special items to overcome obstacles.

    2. I think Caliban has a point about our death penalty. I'm wondering if the old way of having dead players recall out might not be better? I feel like we were more cautious when that was the case. I think we stopped using that penalty mainly because of the trap issue and how unfair it was to Cogs. But otherwise it worked well. I'm not liking the current penalty - someone dies frivalously and the whole party loses...
    ...

  17. #737
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    I'm glad there are those who value this type of playstyle.
    I have had a minor "obsession" with D&D (ok, Cogs....AD&D!) since my first "Blue Box" Basic Set way back in 1980.

    I believe truly that this can be done, and yes...."it IS about the Journey".

    The way the guild is organized right now, it's a Static 6 person party.
    They don't adventure outside of Wednesday Nights and never with anyone else except party members.
    I actually never expected any more than 6 people to try this playstyle. (Even 6 was a surprise)

    I'm sure we would welcome more players. We just would need a way to organize it.
    If you are interested, please re-read the first post of this thread as I have recently edited it.

    Start a Party! Get SOMEONE to party with. "Friend" that Character and decide on a Game night.
    Don't grind to our level, stay on Korthos and adventure there.
    Post your adventures here and get aquainted.

  18. #738
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    All the thoughts recently shared are under consideration.

    If a character drops from a Quest upon death, he loses the potential XP if the party eventually succeeds and we can not enact "raise dead" when the ability is available to us.
    The XP issue is not that important but not being around to Raise is.
    You COULD have the character wait until just before the final battle, but what if you forget to have them leave?

    "Borrowed" special weapons is an idea, but more examination is needed to be sure it's the only viable solution.

    Doing specific quests because of the end rewards is not what we're all about. (Again, unless there is NO other solution)

    Not every Quest MUST be acomplished in order for a character to progress.
    Just like not every chest must be opened, not every corner must be explored.
    (and definetely not every barrel must be broken!)

    Every day I wrestle with the notion that DDO may not be able to be played to it's highest Levels under this Classic Playstyle, but then I remember that may be exactly why there were never hundreds of Epic Level Characters in Classic AD&D. (at least in books and novels)
    It's definetly the Journey.....

  19. #739
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    I know i left dramatically as i could'nt cope with the restrictions, it just was'nt for me :-).
    I am very happy though that the thaco fellowship has grown and is winning, some anyway :-) . It was great fun while i played and i would say anyone interested to give them a try.

    Ghost touch and immune monsters will be appearing more now in your adventures. The dreaded yellow damage argh. I'm sure everyone has noticed how in melee you hit everything its causing damage thats not so clear cut. Not sure if arcanes have any spells to augment weapons ?. I'm sure you'll all sort it out as with moderate fort items(not in ad&d) you'll need heavy fort sometime(lev 9ish)(the new fort is now 150). With your playstyle keeping augment/protective spells active is very difficult.
    There is a dazzling array of weapons avaible you don't need them all (they don't all fit in your backpack, i've tried :-)) .
    Thinking about something Fricko said , a DM would'nt send you into an adventure without the means to have a chance at defeating the villan. If the ddo/dm quest chain/campaign features undead surely 1 or 2 charcters would have items to help.
    Many magic items have useless add on's e;g str 2 jump 2 which causes the potencial to increase without having any real benefit but the pure str 2 items are harder to find.
    A quick word about quest difficulty one of the main things on Elite which is causing you problems/FUN is the DR monsters have. A simple good or fire weapon will give a boost without overkill(most of my weapons do multple damage types just to make sure lol).

    I hope you all had a great christmas and i wish you all a happy new year.

    P.S. If you decide you need any items please feel free to ask i'd be happy to help. I doubt i could craft anything decent for you though.
    Just awestruck, wether it be a Dragon flying overhead Stormreach, that glowing character who just zoomed in'n'out of the Pub, or that i can drink a Beholder under the table and best of all rescuing Damsels in distress.

  20. #740
    Community Member Fricko's Avatar
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    Default To SlowDM

    Thanks for the comments and kind offer, Azz!

    I'm now sure there are weapons that could be used as Undead/Incorporeal killers out there, usable in our circumstance. The problem is locating the generic (low + Magic) versions. As you pointed out, so many items that we do find are combination type, which boosts the + Magic to a place we can't afford. I looked over other similar level characters I have, and most of them seem to have found the sort of things we need. Perhaps it is just poor loot/reward luck so far?

    We have time, and time will tell! Sooner or later, we will get what is needed, or learn to do without!

    -Sam

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