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  1. #621
    Community Member LeadHero5's Avatar
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    Default Death and Penalties

    When I play an individual quest, I want to play close to our limit, to be in REAL danger of having deaths in the party. As a long term plan, I don't want to do a quest more then necessary. Very contradictory conditions. Thrice now we have technically completed a quest, victory conditions checked, only to have someone die right at the very end. Was it bad tactics, no. Bad luck, a moments focus elsewhere then the red bar, or clumsy fingers on the keyboard including mine. I don't believe this group needs an outside penalty to focus our commitment. If we can get all the checkmarks, and defeat the boss and minions and have only one death then, if by consensus, we can move on. By that metric, we were successful in Irestone, WW and Depths 2. And by consensus, we are going to do the Depths chain again from the beginning.


    Originally posted by Aeryyn "I don't play this game for xp/min, I play for fun/hour. "

  2. #622
    Community Member KGWiking's Avatar
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    Default Your Group Information

    Can an update be given of the make-up of your group? It's hard to follow who is exactly what.

    Maybe - Character Class - Race - Level

    Thanks!

    I enjoy reading the thread, but kind of wonder what you will do when you hit some quests around the level 5 area on elite. That's when things can get a "bit tricky".
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  3. #623
    Community Member KGWiking's Avatar
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    Default Possibly Interested

    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    With the departure of one of our number and another "nowhere to be found", THAC0 is looking for another member who might like to join us.

    If interested, contact me so that we can discuss a new potential character.
    Joe has been working on me for over a month about your play-style (which is somewhat similar to our two man team) so I'll bite

    From what I've read it seems you could use a melee type. I have a build I have used before - an "intim-tank" Deneith build.

    A few questions:
    1) Is multi-classing allowed?
    2) What time do you play?
    3) Rather than grind to level 6 or 7 could I roll a veteran to level 7 or level 4 and then basically zerg - to get it out of my system to level 6 or wherever you guys are
    4) Are Dragonmarks allowed - the Deneith Dragonmarks I have found are helpful with the build I have in mind.

    Thanks in advance
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  4. #624
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KGWiking View Post
    Can an update be given of the make-up of your group? It's hard to follow who is exactly what.

    Maybe - Character Class - Race - Level

    Thanks!

    I enjoy reading the thread, but kind of wonder what you will do when you hit some quests around the level 5 area on elite. That's when things can get a "bit tricky".
    With Azzlorn the cleric gone, it looks like they are down to:

    tukc human cleric
    Cogs human rogue
    Kierik halfling (?) wiz
    Grondley human (?) wiz

  5. #625
    Community Member LeadHero5's Avatar
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    Default Current roster

    Very close, Kierik is a halfling sorcerer; but aside from that you are correct. Our scout and trapmiester is Cogoiler. The original intent of Tukcc was to have your stats determined by roll. I missed that and became a max int wizard. I think Kierik also rolled a 'sensible' build. I have taken many of the fire enhancements only, no other elements. In retrospect, acid might have been a better all around choice. Been thinking about firewall and how it was never used in Paper n Pencil. The foes just waited or ran around it. Now I'm a pale master with the skeletal knight which right now is pretty effective. I also cast summon monster 3, and ball of fire if we need 2 more aggro grabbing things. Blindness is effective against ogre clerics.

    Our gear rules are 1 magic potential per level. Potential is the number in the upper right corner. We get a free fort item and my starter robe counts as 0. Vendor wands count as 1. I have the fireball and lightning bolt wands. Lot of reflex saves from them though. You can see our abysmal gear on My DDO. (If I have a charisma cloak on, its to wheedle a few extra plat from the vendors; not combat gear.) I'm looking for a +2 int item because the +3 doesn't get me to an even number(metagaming) and is an extra potential I can't use. The circlet is pure style! Any spell components, tools, or inscribing material is free to buy. We can keep and use scrolls but not potions (except cure light till we get a healer). Any Masterwork weapons don't count as magic potential. And the usual, self funded, trade in group, no AH, no craft, no twink, no shrine, LOTS of FUN. Tiny RP but nothing that really shows up in quest.

    We play from 7ish to 10ish pm EST on Wednesdays. Tukcc will have to confirm this but I think early on is a post about no multiclassing and I don't know about dragonmarks. I have some other characters that I can help get you up to 6 on off nights. I would go to level 4, so you can collect some gear if you decide to join us. We do play SLOWLY so don't expect more then 1 quest a week or running ahead in the quest. (Slower even then SOS,. KaGee)

    Remember THACO, hang gliding in Denith first thing Wednesday.
    Last edited by LeadHero5; 10-27-2012 at 11:18 PM.


    Originally posted by Aeryyn "I don't play this game for xp/min, I play for fun/hour. "

  6. #626
    Community Member KGWiking's Avatar
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    Default Thank you

    Thanks for the information. I asked some other questions via PM and will wait for a reply prior to making a decision.
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  7. #627
    Community Member Fricko's Avatar
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    Default Answers...

    =

    Tukcc is a Commanding, "I'm NOT a Battle Cleric!", Male Elf Fighter-2/Cleric-4 Multiclass - http://my.ddo.com/character/thelanis/tukcc/

    Cogoiler is accident prone Male Human Rogue-6 - http://my.ddo.com/character/thelanis/cogoiler/

    Grondley is a creepy, scorching, Death Scholar, Male Human Wizard-6 - http://my.ddo.com/character/thelanis/grondley/

    Kierik is a Charismatic, resilient (it bounces!), evil anhiliating, DOT force, in a pocket sized Male Halfling Arcane Sorcerer-6 - http://my.ddo.com/character/thelanis/kierik/


    From the Charter:

    MULTI-CLASSING:

    My point of this play style was to have the progression as close to D&D as DDO would allow.
    Since we can't divide XP between classes, the next best thing is to raise classes alternately, except allow a (2) level difference just to have some leeway.

    2nd Edition split the XP evenly. Without racial factors, class level separation wouldn't occur until higher overall level because of differing xp requirements per class.

    3rd Edition allowed selective multi-class leveling, but penalized class separations of more than 1.

    As we already have enough "Class Crafting" going on, I think the 2 level max would be appropriate, giving you 7/9 or 9/11. Not bad.
    "Multi-classing" is from D&D and NOT what you use in DDO.

    Good luck!

    =

  8. #628
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KGWiking View Post
    so I'll bite .......

    From what I've read it seems you could use a melee type. I have a build I have used before - an "intim-tank" Deneith build.

    A few questions:
    1) Is multi-classing allowed?
    2) What time do you play?
    3) Rather than grind to level 6 or 7 could I roll a veteran to level 7 or level 4 and then basically zerg - to get it out of my system to level 6 or wherever you guys are
    4) Are Dragonmarks allowed - the Deneith Dragonmarks I have found are helpful with the build I have in mind.

    Thanks in advance
    Fair enough.
    Multi-classing is fine, but only along Classic line. ie, Classic D&D splits XP evenly in Multi-class, DDO doesn't do that so the closest thing is to require no more than 2 level difference between classes. You can not use the DDO typical 17/2/1 character, no splashing.
    For reference, My character (Tukcc) is a multi-class Fighter/Cleric currently Level 4/2. This requires me to take a Fighter Level next. (In Classic, Elves are only allowed Fighter, Magic User or Thief. I used Cleric because of our No Potion and No Shrine rules. Plus he's a pre-Paladin.)

    We play Wednesday Nights from 7:30 to 9:30 pm EST (give or take).

    Vet to Level 4 is the way to go. Grind only Level 3 or lower Quests in order to preserve your Elite Difficulty Bonus.

    Dragonmarks are fine.

    Some things not discussed......
    Crafting is not allowed UNLESS it's to STRIP Magic for Cosmetic Reasons OR to make use of the new Armor types.
    Battle Armor is highly suggested for Melees to take advantage of the 50% increase in AC without a Magic Potential cost.
    Skirmish Armor is advantagious for Rogues for it's 100% AC increase value.
    COGS.....I have a new piece of Armor for you at no Magic cost.

    In order to have a good Classic experience, I would prefer you to randomly assign stats.
    This may not reinforce your vision of your "build", as is the multi-class rules.
    You should test this process in the creator to see what you might get before commiting.
    Make a list of the stats on paper, in the order of your priority...just make the Prime Attribute First.
    Roll a 12-sided dice and apply that many points to your Prime Attribute and the next Stat on the list.
    Roll an 8-sided dice for each of the remaining stats, in priority order.
    If your remaining points from your build pool is less than 8, use a random number using THAT number as max.
    When you run out of points, you're done.
    If you happen to have any points left after rolling for all stats, apply 1 point to each stat as long as they last. If you have a Stat that requires more than 1 point, you can't modify it further.

    What you SHOULD end up with is a random distribution of stats ordered by your priority.
    You MIGHT have 1, or possibly 2 stats less than 9, but no more.
    If you have more than a 28 point build pool, you shouldn't have any.

    I have rolled Stats using this procedure many times and it has resulted in characters mostly 12-14 in range with a few outstanding exceptions.

    This procedure is a bit involved, but I think in line with Classic D&D.

    I don't expect to be around in game this weekend, but can be found most any weeknight.

    Again, since we advocate fun over procedure, if you need to, do what you want, but do not have more than 2 stats under 9.
    Last edited by intruder1; 10-27-2012 at 02:40 PM.

  9. #629
    Community Member Fricko's Avatar
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    Default

    =

    *hmmmm ... New armor... no magic cost... drool... slobber... control... control...*

    So, got some armor for me, do you Tuk? How... nice.

    *nodnodnod*

    Some words of advice to newcomers. Practice deep belly laughter, and exercise grin muscles in advance. It will help to reduce after game aches and soreness we all seem to suffer.

    er... you might also want to purchase a roll of duc-tape.

    =

  10. #630
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    Default

    The Skirmish Leather Armor we recovered last week is +4, vs your current +2. It's even superior to Studded Leather (and looks cooler too)

    Also, Party level is currently half way to 7th level, that's about 30,000 into 6th.

    Our Playstyle uses any Race but Drow, though you'll be expected to roleplay animosity where encountered. Example: Elf and Half-Orc.
    We do not use Favored Souls, Warforged, or Articifer.
    Druids are borderline only because of the Companion Damage thing. If you play druid, consider not using the companion until it's fixed.

    Try to avoid characters like the "Intimi-Tank".
    "Classic" is taking a Random Character that fits a Class you'd like to play and progress him thru proper gameplay with a bunch of players you'll come to know as "friends".

    Even players that have chosen not to belong to the Guild will always be considered that way. You'll remember everyone you adventure with here that way for many, many years afterwards.
    Last edited by intruder1; 10-27-2012 at 12:19 PM.

  11. #631
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    Default

    Unscheduled visit to Stormreach for an hour or so.........

  12. #632
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    Default

    Noticed an error in the dice rolling procedure outlined above. It has been corrected.

  13. #633
    Community Member Fricko's Avatar
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    Default "Scorched Armor... immolated pride."

    =

    10-24-2012

    "Scorched Armor... immolated pride."

    Cogs tossed the old leather armor, with the three large holes burned in the front, into the trash with a disgusted shake of his head. Once again, with victory literally in sight, he had been taken down and carried out, while his companions finished the work without his assistance. One Witchdoctor on a high ledge had turned into three, and he later learned into four, on other ledges encircling the large room.

    The relatively ineffective Ray of Enfeeblement that the original Witchdoctor had been casting at him, had switched to something with focused heat in considerable amounts, suddenly arriving from different and unexpected directions. The three holes in his once stout armor were clear proof of the power that had ended his participation, and left him with this feeling of abject shame. He had accepted an offer of work, agreed to complete a job, and once more had failed to live up to his word. He had not just let down his employer, he had let down his best friends.

    It was pure carelessness on his part, attempting to be something he had not the training, not the strength, nor the constitution, to back up with performance. This was not at all like the stealthy sniper battle he fought from shadows on high, with his pieced together Great Crossbow in the Rebellion. He simply could not participate in battles that placed him in open view as a potential target.

    In truth, Cogs now realized that he must stick to striking from the shadows, using stealth to drive blades or bolts home from behind an unsuspecting enemy. It would be difficult to remain out of the fight when it was not possible to fight on his terms, but from now on, the young Tinker was determined to swallow his pride. It may appear to his friends that he was avoiding conflict, and allowing them to take greater risks, but such was the reality of lessons recently driven home by the burned holes in his destroyed armor.

    He was not a coward. He simply had to choose his battles wisely to take advantage of his abilities, while reducing or eliminating his vulnerabilities. Caution would become a virtue, with the strike's positioning, timing, and placement becoming the three legs of attacking focus. If he could just follow the Head's advice, and overcome a decided leaning toward impatience, he could have four legs and even more stability in his style of attack.

    Patience.

    Working with skills and abilities he had, and not reaching into those where he was demonstrably weakest.

    Finding new armor to replace that destroyed.

    Explaining to his friends, so they would not think him a shirker of his share of the risk and hardships.

    Above all, walking out of a job completed to the satisfaction of the employer, and not being carried out as a burden, instead of as a welcomed partner.

    His youthful face burned once more with the shame he felt. He hoped the Head would never learn of his performance so far.

    =

  14. #634
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    Default A matter of Planned Skills

    I'm sending this primarily for Cogs, but the rest of you should be aware of it.

    I've spent some considerable time trying to learn more about the Mechanics of DDO in order to determine what changes need to be made to our guidelines in order to play without gear at Elite Difficulty.
    So far, you all know it takes Quests 2 levels below the party level for a number of reasons.

    Trap Difficulty is foremost. In addition to the Quest Level thing, we have given Rogues the allowance of the +5 Spot/Search Hood found in the DDO store.
    This is the minimum "adjustments" needed to allow Rogues the ability to progress in skills other than trapping, which would otherwise require ALL of his/her Skills, Feats and Enhancements.

    At 7th Party Level adventuring in 5th Level Quests, the Trap Difficulty may outpace his Trapping Skills.
    We need to consider this.

    Something I read was that the Open Locks Skill does NOT increase with Difficulty like Disarm. If a Rogue has invested in Improved Open Locks Enhancement(s), I don't think that is neccessary because the Lock DC at Elite is the same as normal.

    If Cogs (or any Rogue) has, or will take Open Lock Enhancements, I suggest using the points on something else.
    In the interests of fair play, it might be good to allow a "re-spec" of enhancements if Improved Open Lock has been chosen.
    I THINK re-specing enhancements has already been addressed. If so, remind me?

  15. #635
    Community Member Fricko's Avatar
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    Default Open Lock required.

    Open Lock II Enhancements are required for the Prestiege Enhancement at Level 6, and Open Lock III at Level 12. Cogs has the three enhancements in plan, currently holding OL I and II.

    No Open Lock related Feat is planned, other than Skill Mastery, which aids all skills.

  16. #636
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fricko View Post
    Open Lock II Enhancements are required for the Prestiege Enhancement at Level 6, and Open Lock III at Level 12. Cogs has the three enhancements in plan, currently holding OL I and II.

    No Open Lock related Feat is planned, other than Skill Mastery, which aids all skills.
    Ah.....didn't consider pre-requisites.

  17. #637
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    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    I'm sending this primarily for Cogs, but the rest of you should be aware of it.

    I've spent some considerable time trying to learn more about the Mechanics of DDO in order to determine what changes need to be made to our guidelines in order to play without gear at Elite Difficulty.
    So far, you all know it takes Quests 2 levels below the party level for a number of reasons.


    At 7th Party Level adventuring in 5th Level Quests, the Trap Difficulty may outpace his Trapping Skills.
    We need to consider this.
    e?
    This is unlikely. with the +5 item a L7 mechanic should have no problems searching and disabling traps in a L5 elite quest. Unless you really mean a quest that is level five on normal but you are running it on elite (which would make it a L7 quest).

    Even then a mechanic with skill boost and fox cunning should have no problems. Since you do not allow many magic items, I assume you have owl and fox cast on your trapper at all times? That plus skill boost three, plus the +2 for mechanic pre plus the improved disable 2 required for mechanic pre means cogs should have a +14 to disable traps (including the +5 item).

    Assuming cogs has a base intel of at least 12 (another +1 to DD), at level seven cogs should be able to get a +22 to his DD rolls. Even Shan to Kor elite, which would be 'at level ' for cogs, he would need to roll only a 12 to get most of the traps using +0 tools, and those traps are some of the toughest at that level there are.

    For most traps at level, even on elite, cogs should have better than a 60% chance to disable the trap with masterwork tools.

  18. #638
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    This is unlikely. with the +5 item a L7 mechanic should have no problems searching and disabling traps in a L5 elite quest. Unless you really mean a quest that is level five on normal but you are running it on elite (which would make it a L7 quest).

    Even then a mechanic with skill boost and fox cunning should have no problems. Since you do not allow many magic items, I assume you have owl and fox cast on your trapper at all times? That plus skill boost three, plus the +2 for mechanic pre plus the improved disable 2 required for mechanic pre means cogs should have a +14 to disable traps (including the +5 item).

    Assuming cogs has a base intel of at least 12 (another +1 to DD), at level seven cogs should be able to get a +22 to his DD rolls. Even Shan to Kor elite, which would be 'at level ' for cogs, he would need to roll only a 12 to get most of the traps using +0 tools, and those traps are some of the toughest at that level there are.

    For most traps at level, even on elite, cogs should have better than a 60% chance to disable the trap with masterwork tools.
    Cogs will be the first to say "I don't wanna know the statistics", but I want to be confident that he not walking into an un-winable situation.

    He makes use of Skill Boosts whenever his life is on the line.

  19. #639
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    Guys......we've taken on a "light" job of clearing out a few Giants. :0

  20. #640
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    Default Game Night

    Wednesday Night was an eye opener.
    The Area we went into was a Jungle Wilderness area with specific encounters I wanted to judge.
    The first was a Single Hill Giant---Results were satisfactory----Brought him down with no serious injuries.
    The Second was a PAIR of Hill Giants---this did not go well---ended up running away til they gave up and then repeating until we could attack them singely.
    The third encounter was with 2 Giants and 3 or 4 Ogres. Needless to say, this didn't go well at all.

    IMO, these would have been the results if we were playing Pen n Paper in the classic style.

    Below is input from Kierik.

    Quote Originally Posted by kerikofgreyhawk
    (I think we need a discussion, so feel free to share if you see fit.)


    I think the greatest challenge facing us now is how to handle multiple opponents of medium-to-high hit points that are either fast or have high crit weaponry. We've figured out how to handle shaman types, I think we can figure out this one too.

    We fared well against the solo hill giants, even with just 3 characters and no healer. They didn't scare me. That will probably change in a non-wilderness setting, but for now I'm not worried about solo hill giants. Tangleroot hobgoblin groups and worg packs scare me alot more.

    I'm not sure what the best tactic will be, but I feel strongly that Tukcc acting as a tank is not a good idea. The best we came up on the fly was Tukcc taking the initital hate while Cogs flanked. Then, once the monster got to 50% hit points, the casters fired away. Its not a reliable tactic: Tukcc takes too much damage and as a result casters are forced to attack early, thus pulling aggro and not being to kill the opponent before getting killed.

    I've done some internet research on monster hate. For those who haven't, there seems to be a lot of wiggle room in terms of attracting initial hate (i.e. proximity, noise, line of sight, class, etc.). But once combat starts, its all about immediate damage. Cast a high damage AoE spell at your peril.

    What I'm not sure about is if damaging a single opponent registers hate on all opponents in the area, or just the damaged opponent? I suspect the latter. If that is true, I am going to fully migrate to a "sniper" build - always targeting single foes. As good as Sonic Blast can be, it is an area of effect spell. In Tangleroot, it affected both hobgoblins and garnered their collective hate right away. Then I died from crits, even with Displacement active and lesser fort. Had I cast Scorching Ray instead, it would have pulled just the damaged monster and I could have finished it off.


    Tactics:

    1) Ambush clearly works, when its applicable. Number one tactic choice, I think.
    2) Hit and run is something that worked well with the hill giants, and is viable because we don't have to worry about maintaining line of sight to a healer (as we have none). We should emphasize this tactic moving forward.
    3) Snipping shamans with maxed scorching rays works well, as does blinding them.
    4) Leaving minions to Tukcc and Cogs has been effective.
    5) If we can manage to get monsters bottled up in a doorway (with summons, not Tukcc), that could work too. Its just hard to pull off. Other than this, I argue that tanking should be off the table.
    6) In terms of spells, we mostly blast, summon, buff - and a little debuff too on tougher monsters. In terms of spell points (which we cannot renew within an adventure), they are cheap and reliable. Crowd Control and Save/Lose aren't reliable and are costly. I'm going to continue this spell selection strategy, with the caveat that I'm moving away from all AoE blast spells.

    Any other thoughts?

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