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  1. #21
    Community Member wonkey's Avatar
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    Interesting playstyle. If I wasn't so enamoured with Mortal Voyage, I'd probably give it a go.

    Got to say, though, that being able to retreat and reenter fully reloaded on HP and SP an unlimited number of times is, to me, much more of a crutch then using shrines.

    In MV we use every other shrine, and it seems a good balance. We don't have as tight equipment restrictions (while there's very little we buy, we can use most everything we can pick up), but then again, it's permadeath EDIT: and we only play quests hard or elite at level or lower.
    The Core is, debatably, even more hard-core.

    As Talltale suggested, if you don't find a steady stream of guys to play with your way, you might want to check out one or the other. EDIT: Besides, I think you'll enjoy getting out of the harbor more often. To my mind, even fresh off the boat, with a few masterwork items, the harbor on normal is probably too easy to really have fun with once you develop your skill set.
    Last edited by wonkey; 03-04-2012 at 09:05 PM.
    Not for everyone. But if you're looking for a fresh experience with a slower pace and tactical play, come check us out at www.mortalvoyage.us You might just like what you see...

  2. #22
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    We've probably got the same idea when it comes to playstyle. Re-entry in a quest does carry a 20% penalty off the base XP award though.....-20% EACH time you re-enter, with a -90% penalty cap.
    If you re-enter more than a few times, you might as well not do the quest at all.

    And let's not leave out the fact that repeating completed quests also have a penalty all their own.

    I don't rule out the Permadeath Guilds. I just don't believe in the habit of re-rolling a character after death. I didn't do that in my PnP campaigns.

    Once a stable group of players gets going, we'll move from one group of Quests to another in our slow, casual progression upwards. The important thing is to group with people that have fun and get along.
    From 4th Level on up, the games will be by invitation from players that have progressed thru 3rd Level.
    A group of 3-6 good friends will be the goal.
    Last edited by intruder1; 03-05-2012 at 07:37 PM.

  3. #23
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    So far, I know of....
    1 2nd Level Character that will definetly join on Wednesday.
    2 1st Level Characters that MAY join on Wednesday.

    If anyone else plans on dropping by Wednesday night, let me know your characters name.

    ADVICE:
    Fighter, Paladin, Cleric-----Concentrate on obtaining Full Plate as soon as possible.
    Wizard, Sorc----Use Eternal Finger of Fire and have Mage Armor and Shield always available.
    Try to let a conjured creature fight for you.
    Thief-----Get used to getting behind the Melee types in a fight and carry a Bow!

  4. #24
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    Default Magic Items

    I have been thinking about Magic Items. How many Magic Items should a character obtain in their Lifetime?

    If you're in DDO, you would have so many magic items at your disposal every equipable slot would be filled with the absolute most powerful item usable by your character!
    I examined a 20th Level character this morning and could just shake my head in disbelief. He had magical items that defy description, everywhere! If this wasn't bad enough, each and every resistance type was at 30!
    He had over 400 hit points, an AC of 29+2 and the magic just OOZED out of him.
    I can't imagine what could challenge a character of that stature. Oh, and EVERY stat was over 25 to boot!

    Back in the day, your character DROOLED over finding a +1 Long Sword, remember?
    Even when they eventually reached the ungodly level of 8, they might possess but a few prize magical items.

    If you are trying to do D&D in DDO, you must get used to the fact that there is way too much magic.
    It will be tough, if not impossible to resist the "Monty Haul" syndrome in DDO.
    You are going to have to make a conscious effort to sell ALL magic items except those that you agree are your max retainable.
    Without a lot of debate, I would suggest 1 item per character Level. If the item has a "potential" number, that counts towards the total.
    ie, a 2nd Level Fighter could own no more that 2 Magic items, or 1 item with a +2 value.

    Now, I suppose it could be acceptable to keep Magic Items in your Bank (NOT in backpack) and only take the allowed amount on an adventure. That way you would only have access to your allowed limit of magic on any given adventure.

    Would anyone like to make comments on this? I'd sure like to hear someone else's oppinions other than my own.
    Last edited by intruder1; 03-06-2012 at 04:51 PM.

  5. #25
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    Tonights forray included an adventure in Heytons Crypt for a 1st Level Cleric and Myself.
    It went pretty well even though we had only 30 some-odd minutes before I needed to go to the Harbor for 2nd Level stuff.

    His mic needed configuration, but is a voice chat player and is looking forward to getting back at it next week.

    Moved over to the Harbor and ended up exploring the Butchers Path with a 2nd Level Wizard.
    Had a good time. I have a lot of respect for Wizards that are played right. Very nice adventure.

    Looking forward to seeing the effect of scaling and experience gained with a 4 person group.
    Last edited by intruder1; 03-07-2012 at 08:54 PM.

  6. #26
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    Default heytons crypt

    I was the cleric. I thought i'd read about you. I even posted a rambling reply awhile back. I've got a week to sort mic out. Getting him upto lev 2 with only a +1 mace as magic and no shrines will be fun. so wednesday will late night/early morning for me. I didn't accept your guild invite because i have been in 'THE FRAG' awhile and not sure about guild renown thingy. My cleric Aliholy was a character i tried for an hr or 2 and left . i only logged on to see if he had a cake and now will save it for a bit of rp fun.

  7. #27
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    Had a good time of it last night. The guild invite you received wasn't from me as Tukcc doesn't have a guild.
    Guilds have little value as far as I can see, at least in the D&D sense. Besides, with the decay thingy going on with them, a guild that plays as infrequently as I suspect we will won't get past level 26, which is where I understand the decay starts to function. Guilds are plainly to prompt power-gaming.

    Anyway, looking forward to next weeks adventure.

  8. #28
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    Default Breakables

    This rant is my take on breakables you will find in a Quest.

    Breakables in a DDO Quest are (IMO) totally unneccessary in D&D terms. What they provide are consumables, consumables that unbalance the game. Potions, Projectiles and the occasional item. D&D is also about logistics, running out of something is just another thing you have to plan for, and is a great aspect.

    Each Adventure (Quest) has at least 1 chest, which represents the treasure associated with the challenge.
    Optional Objectives carry their own Treasure "Chest" to reward those that are victorious.

    Breakables only further feed the Power-Player Style. There is a Wizard Character (Ezeikiel) which I play with another RP Guild. He hasn't been played by D&D concepts and has sought out any and all breakables he has come across. Well, at 5th Level, he is a veritable drug store of every common potion you can think of. And it all fits in 25% of his backpack! I tell you, carrying over a hundred healing potions really downgrades the value of a cleric and even a shrine!

    "No Potions" isn't just a random comment, if you want to play the D&D way, they aren't neccesary!

    Like every other rant in this thread, it is all SUGGESTION. No one can make you play any specific way, it is up to YOU to consciously CHOOSE not to do certain things or play within certain guidelines.
    But then again, if you choose not to play the same way as those around you who are, you will soon find yourself soloing. That bit of wisdom goes for D&D players as well as Power-players, am I right?
    Last edited by intruder1; 03-08-2012 at 03:59 PM.

  9. #29
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    Thanks for the vote of confidence. I agree self-imposed restrictions is the way to go.
    I am old AD&D fan and to be quite honest, don't see tackling CR15+ Modules any time soon.

    While in the 1st and 2nd Editions, it took just 2000xp to reach 2nd level, in DDO it takes 5000.
    Obviously, they knew, given the amount of Magic Items that would be dropped on characters, they would have to increase the goals for progression.
    Also, the way DDO is set up was to attract a different type of player. One that wanted all that Magic and didn't want to wait. Not to mention that Turbine "conveniently" offers a lot of those things for purchase.
    2nd Ed Fighter 2k for lvl 2, 4k for lvl 3, 8k for lvl 4, 16k for lvl 5, 32k for lvl 6, 64k for lvl 7, 125k for lvl 8, 250k for lvl 9
    500k for lvl 10, 750k for lvl 11 - Lvl 20 = 3,000,000xp

    DDO Fighter 5k for lvl 2, 20k for lvl 3, 50k for lvl 4, 90k for lvl 5 140k for lvl 6, 200k for lvl 7, 270k for lvl 8, 360k for lvl 9
    460k for lvl 10, 570k for lvl 11 - Lvl 20 = 1,900,000xp

    I used to think like you that DDO's xp requirements were way out of wack - Honestly you need far less at higher lvls than in 2nd Ed.

  10. #30
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    This was interesting……
    A video log of adventures in Korthos by a Permadeath Guild.
    http://ifyoudieyoudelete.blogspot.com/

    Check out the video. It's a great set of adventures and is a good example of teamwork and planning. It does show differences in the playstyle from what I have been discussing, but that's the way they do DDO.

    This video shows them doing Cannith Crystal and the Collaborator.
    These are the things I noticed that are different from what I've talked about…..

    No Creeping. (The narrator, at one point, refused to creep saying it was “too slow”.)
    Module advance knowledge. (they knew were the spawn points were and ambushed)
    Brought Hireling Cleric. (Not a bad thing, but also violated Potion and Shrine use)
    Used Healing Potions.
    Used Shrines.
    Had more than appropriate Magic Items.
    Did sell “unwanted” magic afterwards, but I think retained some anyway.
    Last edited by intruder1; 03-11-2012 at 05:21 AM.

  11. #31

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    Hey Intruder, just wanted to point out a few things.

    You pointed out neither character had trouble in either module, knew the quest, and felt like a rewards grind, I think if you take any group from any of the main PD guilds and run through Korthos or the harbor, you will find the same thing you can only pretend not to know what is coming so many times, especially if you are grouped with others that know it. Its easier to pretend with a new player in the group, but if there is not a new player, then why bother?

    Regarding the shrines, healing, and magic all of those things are allowed in the Sublime rule set. I recommend MV and the Core to you because they play more close to what you are doing. In Sublime we pride ourselves in being permadeath and also experiencing the vast majority of the game. I guarantee losing a 18 or 20 with around a year of playing invested into them hurts more than losing a 7 or 8 you've had for a few months, lol.

    Also, I honestly think you would enjoy running with the Core or MV, simply because its nice to fall in with a group of players that you game with on a consistent basis. You should at least try it so you know what the other side of the fence is like, in my opinion. Good luck building your group.
    Member of The Sublime Permadeath Guild on Thelanis.
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    Go Hard or Go Home!

  12. #32
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    Telltale,
    I really want to appologize for the tone that came across. I didn't mean to rag on the Sublime, this is a game and however you play is your business. The video was such a good example of things I have suggested to a few new-found friends of what to avoid in my particular view and oppinion. I couldn't have made a better instructional tool.

    I do intend to explore playstyles of other guilds, it's just that right now I spend all my time getting to know new players and testing things out.

    Again, I appologize for any slight.

  13. #33
    Community Member Orratti's Avatar
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    Use the shrines. If there were a way to set the game up where shrines were removed from the quest but you could recall and reenter after resting without a reentry penalty that would be good for a roleplaying style of play. As it is the shrines give the same effect as doing so without the penalty.

    In Baldur's Gate you could make camp anywhere. While camping there was a chance of a random encounter going off. I've never seen any suggestion to have shrining cause a random encounter but if you were a roleplaying minded individual that should be a suggestion that would appeal to you.

    DDO as an alternate reality is very poor. It is nothing more than combat and loot. Personally roleplaying funny voices and speaking in thou, thee, and thine would grow stale in a few hours for me. Don't get me wrong it's a great game but a shadow of what I'd call a true D&D game. Ufortunately what it would take to run the kind of game I'm after seeing would be a self aware AI capable of running the matrix. Owning property, ships, estates, whatever, simply isn't possible. You can't even own a horse. (poor paladins) You can't earn a royal title, build and run a thieves guild, a keep, or a wizards tower. You can't make allies or enemies within stormreach outside of getting on someone's friends list. The life story of your character isn't affected by your interactions with npcs. You can't earn henchman and watch them grow in power. You can't pick pockets and you can't climb walls. In short without a thinking DM to play storyteller and the opportunity to do whatever you imagine your character would do you aren't playing D&D.

  14. #34
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post

    This was a great example of how to play a game, but not how to play Dungeons and Dragons.
    Statements like the one above seem sanctimonious and unnecessarily belittle other people's play style.

    There is no ONE way to play DnD.

  15. #35
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orratti View Post
    Use the shrines. If there were a way to set the game up where shrines were removed from the quest but you could recall and reenter after resting without a reentry penalty that would be good for a roleplaying style of play. As it is the shrines give the same effect as doing so without the penalty.

    In Baldur's Gate you could make camp anywhere. While camping there was a chance of a random encounter going off. I've never seen any suggestion to have shrining cause a random encounter but if you were a roleplaying minded individual that should be a suggestion that would appeal to you.

    DDO as an alternate reality is very poor. It is nothing more than combat and loot. Personally roleplaying funny voices and speaking in thou, thee, and thine would grow stale in a few hours for me. Don't get me wrong it's a great game but a shadow of what I'd call a true D&D game. Ufortunately what it would take to run the kind of game I'm after seeing would be a self aware AI capable of running the matrix. Owning property, ships, estates, whatever, simply isn't possible. You can't even own a horse. (poor paladins) You can't earn a royal title, build and run a thieves guild, a keep, or a wizards tower. You can't make allies or enemies within stormreach outside of getting on someone's friends list. The life story of your character isn't affected by your interactions with npcs. You can't earn henchman and watch them grow in power. You can't pick pockets and you can't climb walls. In short without a thinking DM to play storyteller and the opportunity to do whatever you imagine your character would do you aren't playing D&D.
    Now This^ is how I feel.

    Thank you for putting it into words and +1

  16. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    Telltale,
    I really want to appologize for the tone that came across. I didn't mean to rag on the Sublime, this is a game and however you play is your business. The video was such a good example of things I have suggested to a few new-found friends of what to avoid in my particular view and oppinion. I couldn't have made a better instructional tool.

    I do intend to explore playstyles of other guilds, it's just that right now I spend all my time getting to know new players and testing things out.

    Again, I appologize for any slight.
    Its cool, dude, but I would go back and edit your post to better reflect that, as it is it comes across in your list as if the player is not abiding by the guilds rules, which is not the case.

    Additionally the closing statement was kind of poorly chosen, it may not be how YOU play Dungeons and Dragons, but I have DM'ed a campaign where the players were minor dieties, and the power levels in DDO are nothing approaching what that campaign entailed. I have also DM'ed campaigns that cap out at level 10 and each player only has one magic item. Thats the great thing about DnD, there is no "right" way to play it.
    Member of The Sublime Permadeath Guild on Thelanis.
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  17. #37
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    If you run low on Hit Points.....retreat to the entrance and exit, wait to regain your points and re-enter.
    If you can not get away and end up dying...recall and re-enter.

    D&D does vary but I know in most campaigns that I played in if we retreated then the enemy had time torefortify there defences and even make it harder for us the next time we attempted what ever we were doing. With that in mind I would so leaving and reentering without letting the quest reset (waiting 5 min) is less D&D then using shrines. I see shrines as a safe place that the adventures set up to make camp. Yes there are to many shrines in DDO so put restriction to them. In MV we use every other one if theres more then 3 people in a group. Just a suggestion to make DDO more like D&D in my view.

  18. #38
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    Good points, all the way around.

    The concept of D&D on DDO is not an easy one. There are so many different styles.
    One concept I'm trying to flesh out is "Nothing says you have to finnish."
    What I mean by that is progression shouldn't trump all other factors. If I play a game, I don't want to be assured that I'll reach the end.
    In PnP, it was exciting that you didn't know what to expect, or even if you'd make it to the exit alive.
    Shrines do indeed give a character a safe place to rest and could be considered an alternative to returning to town without incuring the re-entry penalty.
    But what's the fun in that? You can go into a dungeon without being concerned what you're up against. Are you overmatched? Did you do something bumblingly unwise? Or was it just not you day (or night)?
    A Cleric in the party should be able to heal enough of the wounds to give the party a decent chance to get out alive.
    A Cleric can have the ability to restore enough of a casters spell casting ability to get through. Not to mention the minimum SP level a caster has.
    The ability of a wizard to learn replacement spells should not be available in a dungeon. It should require more of a conditioned environment than can be provided underground.

    That leaves the dead. In lower level adventures, you should have to return the body to an appropriate Cleric for raising. The player shouldn't be able to "pop back in" underground. Makes being killed actually something to avoid?
    Now, saying that, an advanced party with a Cleric of sufficient power to raise on the spot is a privilage granted to a group who has proven themselves time and time again.

    The above rant is a product of my oppinion and does not cast any negative assumptions or criticisms on any other person or group.
    I am looking for just a few like-minded individuals who would like comradory and a few hours a week laughing and joking while leading their favorite character to whatever destiny awaits them.

    Voice-Chat? Of course! Shrines? Ah, that'd be a no. Died in a dungeon? The first round back at the Tavern is on you!

  19. #39
    Community Member Orratti's Avatar
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    Ever played a campaign or module where there was no town nearby? I had one called "The lost city" where originally you were guarding a caravan but got lost and seperated during a sandstorm then wandered onto the entrance of an underground city. In that scenario you either made camp in the dungeon or went back to the surface to make camp outside which would be just as dangerous.

    Rest shrines aren't cheating for good reason in roleplaying. Raise shrines are. When someone in the group dies do you allow him to recall to town and then come back in or have the group recall and start over? If you do that then I'd say you weren't properly roleplaying. If he's dead, well he's dead. You have him recall then drop him from the group. You don't carry his stone through the quest and let him recall and come back to loot the chests. Dead men don't get loot. Nor do you "carry" his body back to town to be raised by the appropriate cleric. At low levels you can't afford the service fee for that act and even if you can who do you pay it to? As far as I know there is no way to drop money on the ground to represent the loss of treasure that raising a teammate costs. Clerics require a hefty donation to their churches to raise dead adventurers from my recollection. It's not a "free" service otherwise they would be spending all their time raising peasants and pets from the dead and only the very very old would ever die. You continue on without him. He's dead, mourn him and move on.

    During a quest when rest was required you'd find a room that you have already cleared, throw out a grease spell and caltrops in the hallway leading to it, possibly an illusion of a wall at the end of that hallway making it look like there was no hallway, maybe put down an alarm spell and cast hold portal on the door and take whatever time you needed to rest. Should something penetrate the wall illusion you will be wakened by the alarm spell and by the screams of them falling and getting impaled on the caltrops. If they manage to get through the door you set fire to the grease and hopefully manage to survive.

    Again, use the shrines. Only the rest shrine and only one per quest. You are going far out of your way to avoid it for no real reason and at a cost to yourself while at the same time breaking the true laws of d&d by allowing the dead to continue to find a way to participate at a level where you cannot raise them or afford to have them raised.

  20. #40
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    Excellent oppinion. Sounds like a campaign I might have done years ago.

    The good thing about guidlines is you can make exceptions once in a while.
    Though we're still in the dawn of the campaign, (yep it's officially a campaign with 3 characters)
    I haven't seen a single instance where using a shrine was neccessary.
    Our rule of thumb is No Shrines---BUT---circumstances could change and a 100% agreement from the party could allow it as an exception.
    Under no circumstances can a character recall and re-enter. If someone losses connection and the remaining characters feel they can not continue, everybody recalls and voids the Module. Then they can wait for the character to log back in, run another Module short-handed or sit around at the Tavern in RP and replan for next week.

    The current Campaign is official with 5 characters! 1 Fighter, 2 Clerics, 1 Thief and 1 Wizard!
    Characters never have an obligation to play, but it is hoped the adventures are fun enough to bring them back week after week.
    On game night, we'll give it a go with whoever can make it.
    All characters are (or shortly will be) 2nd Level and currently located in the Harbor.
    New Characters are allways welcome. PLEASE contact me if you're interested.
    In order to play with the main group, characters need to be 2nd level and have no more than 2 magic items (potential counts)

    Players looking for me, look for Tukcc, Elven Fighter/Cleric

    **Voice-Chat? Of course! Shrines? Ah, that'd be a no. Died in a dungeon? The first round back at the Tavern is on you!**
    Last edited by intruder1; 03-13-2012 at 09:55 AM.

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