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  1. #1
    Community Member Pilgrim1's Avatar
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    Default Help with variations of 10k stars archer

    Hello forum people,

    I need some help understanding the differences, the pro’s and con’s, between the many different variations in 10k stars archers. Not only am I interested in the actual number differences but I want to know if there are much differences in play stile.

    Ill list some the splits I have seen floating around so far.

    (all half-elf with cleric/rogue/pally deli)
    12 monk/6 ranger/2 fighter (or pally)
    12 monk/6 fighter/1 arti + 1 arti/fighter
    12 fighter/6 monk/1 arti +1 arti/monk
    12 ranger/6 monk/2 fighter (or pally)

    I think all of these builds are able to self heal, range, melee, and have solid survivability which is what I am looking for. However, when I start to look into the specifics of the builds I get overwhelmed by the feats needed and the many enhancement possibilities. This is good, I like the potential of all this confusion, I just can’t seem to lay out the differences in the builds and I’m sure there are others out there who feel similarly.

    To further add complications and interest there are some very nice looking tank builds which use some of the above splits.

    Thanks!
    Last edited by Pilgrim1; 02-15-2012 at 01:35 PM.

  2. #2
    Community Member FengXian's Avatar
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    You do need a lot of feats. The builds that give you more feats are 12 monk 6 ranger 2 fighter, or 12 fighter 7 monk 1 arti (I'd go 1 wiz tho.)

    I also think that the 12 monk 6 ranger 2 fighter is the most tested and the most popular atm, it's kinda safe bet if you know how to play it (it's not easy, lots of swaps, lots of stuff to activate etc...)
    Cannith - Juzam, Water Savant II Ranger 6 Monk 2 AA/ Orocarn, Stalwart Defender III Monk 2 / Taigongwanng, Sorc TRing - Guardiani di Eberron

  3. #3
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pilgrim1 View Post
    Hello forum people,

    I need some help understanding the differences, the pro’s and con’s, between the many different variations in 10k stars archers. Not only am I interested in the actual number differences but I want to know if there are much differences in play stile.

    Ill list some the splits I have seen floating around so far.

    (all half-elf with cleric/rogue/pally deli)
    12 monk/6 ranger/2 fighter (or pally)
    12 monk/6 fighter/1 arti + 1 arti/fighter
    12 fighter/6 monk/1 arti +1 arti/monk
    12 ranger/6 monk/2 fighter (or pally)

    I think all of these builds are able to self heal, range, melee, and have solid survivability which is what I am looking for. However, when I start to look into the specifics of the builds I get overwhelmed by the feats needed and the many enhancement possibilities. This is good, I like the potential of all this confusion, I just can’t seem to lay out the differences in the builds and I’m sure there are others out there who feel similarly.

    To further add complications and interest there are some very nice looking tank builds which use some of the above splits.

    Thanks!
    They all play basically the same... You want to use manyshot and 10k stars as much as possible, and melee when those are on timer.

    The main thing is to have enough feats to get all the good ranged feats, and at least TWF, ITWF, GTWF for handwraps melee.

    I'm pretty sure all 4 builds above are solid except maybe this one

    12 monk/6 fighter/1 arti + 1 arti/fighter
    I'm not sure if that one has enough feats to get what you want.

    12 monk/6 ranger/2 fighter (or pally)
    Standard - can fit all the feats in plus a past-life feat (unless you go pally, then you're short a feat) Better handwrap damage, some nice monk abilities (especially abundant step and higher stances). Ranger gives you sprint boost, favored enemies, Ram's Might, a ton of free feats

    12 fighter/6 monk/1 arti +1 arti/monk
    Kensei option, more DPS against non-favored enemies. Get umd (if you go arti) and much better self-healing

    12 ranger/6 monk/2 fighter (or pally)
    Gives you almost all ranged and melee feats for free. End up with some extra feats, so this one could probably do pally as an option. More favored enemies goodness..

    Other options are 11 ranger/9 monk or 14 ranger/6 monk (Self-cast Freedom of Movement)
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  4. #4
    Community Member Pilgrim1's Avatar
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    Unhappy feats!

    these are the list of the feats that are basically required as far as i can tell.

    Melee: (5)
    Toughness
    TWF (R)
    ITWF (R)
    GTWF
    Stunning Fist

    Range: (7 or 8)
    Many Shot (R)
    + Point Blank shot
    + Rapid Shot (R)
    Improved Precise shot
    +Precise shot
    Bow Strength (R)
    + Weapon Focus (range) (not needed with 2+ranger levels)
    Zen Archery

    Prerequisites (1 or 2):
    Arcane Archer
    + Mental Toughness/arti
    Ninja Spy
    + Dodge

    Extras:
    Improved Critical (range)
    Improved Critical (blunt)
    Weapon Specialization
    Combat expertise
    Weapon Finesse
    Improved Sunder
    Power attack
    Quick draw
    More toughness

    12M/6R/2F gets: 3 from the extras list
    12M/6F/1A gets: 0 from the extras list
    12F/6M/1A gets: 0 from the extras list - kensi 2 requires 3 feets
    12R/6M/2F gets: 6 from the extras list
    I can see how adding 3 monk levels to the last build would be good trade and is probably a stronger build all around.


    I am glad to hear that all the builds play more or less the same. I guess I'm leaning more two the arti splashed builds for the UMD, can anyone comment on the survival and DPS differences between 12 monk and 12 fighter?

    thanks!
    PS. enhancements are a nightmare, every time I try to fit em in im over by 40+. Bard enhancements were easier!
    Edits: fixed number of extra feats.
    Last edited by Pilgrim1; 02-15-2012 at 02:26 PM.

  5. #5
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pilgrim1 View Post
    these are the list of the feats that are basically required as far as i can tell.

    Melee: (5)
    Toughness
    TWF (R)
    ITWF (R)
    GTWF
    Stunning Fist

    Range: (8)
    Many Shot (R)
    + Point Blank shot
    + Rapid Shot (R)
    Improved Precise shot
    +Precise shot
    Bow Strength (R)
    + Weapon Focus (range)
    Zen Archery

    Prerequisites (1 or 2):
    Arcane Archer
    + Mental Toughness/arti
    Ninja Spy
    + Dodge

    Extras:
    Improved Critical (range)
    Improved Critical (blunt)
    Weapon Specialization
    Combat expertise
    Weapon Finesse
    Improved Sunder
    Power attack
    Quick draw
    More toughness

    12M/6R/2F gets: 3 from the extras list
    12M/6F/1A gets: 0 from the extras list
    12F/6M/1A gets: 3 from the extras list
    12R/6M/2F gets: 6 from the extras list
    I can see how adding 3 monk levels to the last build would be good trade and is probably a stronger build all around.
    That's an excellent breakdown, but I think you're off by one feat...

    12/6/2 monk/ranger/fighter gets

    5 ranger feats for free
    3 feats from monk (Zen Archery, Toughness, Stunning Fist)
    2 feats from fighter (Point Blank Shot, GTWF)
    7 "normal" feats (Weapon Focus: Range, Mental Toughness, Dodge, Precise Shot, Improved Precise shot = 5 feats)

    So that only leaves 2 extra feats, and I'd put Improved Critical: Ranged into the required range list instead of the "extra" list... so really only one "extra" feat.

    So you need 16 required feats to make a good monk archer (Yikes!)

    So I think it's more like:
    12M/6R/2F gets: 1 from the extras list
    12M/6F/1A is -1 from the required lists
    12F/6M/1A gets: 2 from the extras list
    12R/6M/2F gets: 4 from the extras list



    I guess I'm leaning more two the arti splashed builds for the UMD,can anyone comment on the survival and DPS differences between 12 monk and 12 fighter?
    Well, I think if want to go arti, you're going to have to take 12 fighter to get enough feats. You could go 12R/6M/2A maybe.

    The 12 fighter one is very solid though. Kensai, Weapon Spec, Power Surge, etc. I think if using an arti splash for UMD and heal scrolls, I'd go 12/6/2 fighter/monk/arti.
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    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  6. #6
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pilgrim1 View Post
    12 monk/6 ranger/2 fighter (or pally)
    12 monk/6 fighter/1 arti + 1 arti/fighter
    Did you also consider monk 12 / rgr 6 / arty 2? Rgr 6 is 1 more feat than ftr 6 (2 if you consider WS:R for Kensai I to be a wasted feat); arty 2 is a net loss of 1 feat vs ftr 2 (lose 2 ftr bonus feats, but drop Mental Toughness pre-req), but gains you UMD & W&S Mastery I (+30% IIRC).

  7. #7
    Community Member Pilgrim1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    Did you also consider monk 12 / rgr 6 / arty 2? Rgr 6 is 1 more feat than ftr 6 (2 if you consider WS:R for Kensai I to be a wasted feat); arty 2 is a net loss of 1 feat vs ftr 2 (lose 2 ftr bonus feats, but drop Mental Toughness pre-req), but gains you UMD & W&S Mastery I (+30% IIRC).
    I did not think about mixing arti + ranger, that's another good build that I had not thought off.



    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    That's an excellent breakdown, but I think you're off by one feat...

    So that only leaves 2 extra feats, and I'd put Improved Critical: Ranged into the required range list instead of the "extra" list... so really only one "extra" feat.

    So you need 16 required feats to make a good monk archer (Yikes!)
    If you spend half your time with a bow and half with melee why is IC: ranged better than IC: bludgeoning. Is it due to the better crit profile of bows?

    I think you are right however and any build without IC: ranged would be weak.


    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    So I think it's more like:
    12M/6R/2F gets: 1 from the extras list
    12M/6F/1A is -1 from the required lists
    12F/6M/1A gets: 2 from the extras list
    12R/6M/2F gets: 4 from the extras list
    I think we are both wrong (me even after my edits), as kensi requires a hole bunch of feats to qualify for it as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Well, I think if want to go arti, you're going to have to take 12 fighter to get enough feats. You could go 12R/6M/2A maybe.

    The 12 fighter one is very solid though. Kensai, Weapon Spec, Power Surge, etc. I think if using an arti splash for UMD and heal scrolls, I'd go 12/6/2 fighter/monk/arti.
    I was hopping to be able to pull off haste boost with 12 monk and get UMD but it looks like feat limitations will make that difficult. If I splash arti i can take pally or rogue delinquent for half-elf, otherwise ill be forced to take cleric (self healing is that important to me).

    questions:
    *Does anyone know when/if the extra crit from earth stance monk 12 overcomes the damage gain from kensi 2? What about if we include the bonus 2d6 SA dmg?
    *Just how much more survivability and utility does monk 12 give above monk 6?
    *How much of a boost in damage does haste boost give when using archery, especially 10k stars or many shot (I hear haste and range are messed up).

    again thanks!
    Edit: woot the multi quote post worked!
    Last edited by Pilgrim1; 02-15-2012 at 04:53 PM.

  8. #8
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Artificer is a great 2 level splash on an Arcane Archer build.

    You get:
    1 free feat (don't have to take mental toughness)
    echoes of power (never run out of SP)
    enchant weapons (+1 enhancement mod)
    max UMD (along with 30% bonus on wands and scrolls from W&SMI, +1 CL and +2 UMD on scrolls)
    a small doggy (take box breaker enhancement and set to passive and invis him)
    repeater/rune arm use until you get 10k stars
    plausible trap skills

    I'd consider trying to fit 2 artificer on any arcane archer build just on the strength of the self healing and free feat. Contrary to the posters above I am considering not taking GTWF on my character; I don't think that 12.5% extra attacks 1/4 of the time is absolutely necessary when there are nicer feats to take.

    Splits I like:
    12 monk / 6 ranger / 2 fighter or artificer
    12 ranger / 6 monk / 2 artificer
    7 fighter / 7 monk / 6 ranger (ranged tank)
    13 rogue / 6 monk / 1 artificer

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post
    Artificer is a great 2 level splash on an Arcane Archer build.

    You get:
    1 free feat (don't have to take mental toughness)
    echoes of power (never run out of SP)
    enchant weapons (+1 enhancement mod)
    max UMD (along with 30% bonus on wands and scrolls from W&SMI, +1 CL and +2 UMD on scrolls)
    a small doggy (take box breaker enhancement and set to passive and invis him)
    repeater/rune arm use until you get 10k stars
    plausible trap skills

    I'd consider trying to fit 2 artificer on any arcane archer build just on the strength of the self healing and free feat. Contrary to the posters above I am considering not taking GTWF on my character; I don't think that 12.5% extra attacks 1/4 of the time is absolutely necessary when there are nicer feats to take.

    Splits I like:
    12 monk / 6 ranger / 2 fighter or artificer
    12 ranger / 6 monk / 2 artificer
    7 fighter / 7 monk / 6 ranger (ranged tank)
    13 rogue / 6 monk / 1 artificer
    It's refreshing to hear you say that.

    Wax_on, why have you been hiding this gem from us?
    12 ranger / 6 monk / 2 artificer

    Quote Originally Posted by savingsoul View Post
    I just thought of a better name for wax_on's suggestion of 2A/6M/12Ranger AA, which is the most up to date candidate and answer to the original intent and question I posted in this thread. Wax_on doesn't seem to be particularly focused on names, so I'm just trying to facilitate the process.

    The name is "Asian Exploitation"

    Wax_on, could you *please* post a link to this build if it has already been posted?

    -Soul
    And why did you give the 12 ranger/ 6 monk/ 2 artificer build such a bad rap when we were discussing the Uzy builds?

    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post
    2A/6M/12Ranger monkster is unlikely to ever be rolled. 2A isn't needed with 12 ranger, there's a 12 ranger build in the thread that I linked elsewhere which is more an extension of the exploiter concept and works equally well as tempest II or AA.
    Whatever, water under the bridge as they say. But wait, we haven't quite crossed it yet: I see something else on the other side:

    It's 12F/6M/2A, you forgot to mention that

  10. #10
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by savingsoul View Post
    And why did you give the 12 ranger/ 6 monk/ 2 artificer build such a bad rap when we were discussing the Uzy builds?
    Our conversation developed my opinion of the 2 Artificer split. In particular, I only realised part way that Artificer qualifies as mental toughness saving a feat. While you're happy to quote the second part you've forgotten to mention that I'd previously suggested it as a possible split (just later I clarified that I doubted that many people would go for it).

    I've developed the idea a little as the split has quite a lot of room to take past life feats. I'm generally planning to do the build down the track a little and be able to take paladin, rogue and monk past lives (or something like that) which'll be quite fun and get the ranger past life that I'm looking for. It's more a utility build rather than maximum DPS which I'm often ok with (but I'll see).

  11. #11
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    @wax_on_wax_off

    I don't mean to put you on the spot, but since you haven't addressed it, let me be direct. I was trying to get at something else in my previous post: Why did you overwrite your 12Ranger/6M/2Rogue posts with 12Ranger/6M/2A posts? It's kind of weird. It also destroys the integrity of the references I made to your 12Ranger/6M/2Rogue builds in my previous posts (and I'm sure those of others, if they did so as well).

    Don't get me wrong, I'm glad you're coming up with something to fill in the gi, so to speak, of the "asian exploitation" project. I just would rather have had you do it another way--by starting a new thread and/or by posting it to the "Seeking AA variations of the exploiter " thread.

  12. #12
    Community Member Pilgrim1's Avatar
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    Can we please avoid getting off topic savingsoul?

    What does everyone think of:
    7 fighter/7monk/6 ranger with cleric delinquent.

    This nets 19 feats which is about the most feats as possible.
    Does this overcome the loss of monk 12 or fighter 12?
    Does anyone with experience able to comment on how effective haste boost is with archery?

    thanks.
    Last edited by Pilgrim1; 02-15-2012 at 11:38 PM.

  13. #13
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pilgrim1 View Post
    Can we please avoid getting off topic savingsoul?

    What does everyone think of:
    7 fighter/7monk/6 ranger with cleric delinquent.

    This nets 19 feats which is about the most feats as possible.
    Does this overcome the loss of monk 12 or fighter 12?
    Does anyone with experience able to comment on how effective haste boost is with archery?

    thanks.
    There is a whole thread on it if you follow the URL, maybe talk about it with the OP there?

    Quote Originally Posted by savingsoul View Post
    @wax_on_wax_off

    I don't mean to put you on the spot, but since you haven't addressed it, let me be direct. I was trying to get at something else in my previous post: Why did you overwrite your 12Ranger/6M/2Rogue posts with 12Ranger/6M/2A posts? It's kind of weird. It also destroys the integrity of the references I made to your 12Ranger/6M/2Rogue builds in my previous posts (and I'm sure those of others, if they did so as well).

    Don't get me wrong, I'm glad you're coming up with something to fill in the gi, so to speak, of the "asian exploitation" project. I just would rather have had you do it another way--by starting a new thread and/or by posting it to the "Seeking AA variations of the exploiter " thread.
    The build there is a work in progress until I TR into it. This might surprise you but people don't appreciate it when you make a new thread every time you come up with a slight variation on a previous build that you had (I'm still waiting for the Uzy Over MMMMMMMMM). I still haven't decided on which way I'll go. I'll probably do 2 lives as ranger, 1 with 2 rogue and tempest II and 1 with 2 artificer and Arcane Archer, sounds fun to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post
    This might surprise you but people don't appreciate it when you make a new thread every time you come up with a slight variation on a previous build that you had (I'm still waiting for the Uzy Over MMMMMMMMM).
    Well that point does perhaps apply to 12Ranger/6M/2Rogue vs. 12Ranger/6M/2Arty, but it doesn't necessarily apply to the Uzy builds -- they are each rather distinct variations on a theme. (That's why I used Roman numerals--not to be pompous, but to imply variations rather than updates; Uzy 7.0 vs 3.0 would imply an upgrade; Uzy VII vs Uzy III imply variations on a theme.) Having said that, I do appreciate your suggestion to consolidate the Uzy builds into one new thread, but that could only be done with 20/20 hindsight (see my signature). LOL. Like I've said before, Uzy Over MMMMMMMMM ain't gonna happen. Uzy VII is the last in the line of Uzy builds, unless perhaps they come out with yet another ranged boost

    I apologize if the above comes across as a major digression, but some of the Uzy builds do have 10k stars; they aren't for everyone, but they are interesting possibilities (see my signature).

    (p.s. It still would have been better had you placed the 12Ranger/6M/2Arty variation to a new post in your "6 monkchers" thread rather than overwrite the 12Ranger/6M/2Rogue build.)

  15. #15
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by savingsoul View Post
    (p.s. It still would have been better had you placed the 12Ranger/6M/2Arty variation to a new post in your "6 monkchers" thread rather than overwrite the 12Ranger/6M/2Rogue build.)
    I'm sorry but your measure of what is better isn't of interest to me, it it worries you so much then I invite you to not read my threads or posts (there may be an ignore option available I'm not sure).

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    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post
    I'm sorry but your measure of what is better isn't of interest to me, it it worries you so much then I invite you to not read my threads or posts (there may be an ignore option available I'm not sure).
    Don't be silly. Why would I do something as foolish as that? I can let it go; it's all good. I've greatly benefitted from your input and appreciate your posts.

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