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  1. #21
    Community Member ainmosni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psi0nix View Post

    Dunno, maybe I'm just not quest leader material, but it sure makes the game alot harder when your restriced to playing only with others who don't know the quests aswell.
    no challenge, no fun.

    every elitist had to earn his stripes. we've all been in failed tempests spines. i remember my first shroud. i know what it's like to go into an epic quest (back before insta-kills) with a Wounding of Puncturing shortbow and kite kite kite till it died.

    live and learn
    Soturi . Ghallanda Rerolled
    [7/18/2012 12:22:24 AM] D. H.: i mean, i'm not as experienced as, say, a vegas hooker, but i can confidently say that you're a lot more aggressive than like 90% of the guys i've been with.

  2. #22
    Community Member Zenthalas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psi0nix View Post
    "I had to do it the hard way, so should you,
    Yup

  3. #23
    Community Member ainmosni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psi0nix View Post
    "I had to do it the hard way, so should you, and also you should cop flak about it from others who do know".

    That kind of sums up that statement.

    I'm not asking for people to "hold my hand" through quests, just that those with experience and know-how try not to exclude those without from quests, as it just creates a sub-class of players that don't know the game and have no direction apart from the very limited compendium to get their info from.
    the reality is, me, and others are beyond the 'learn the quests the hard way' phase. we're well into our metagaming phase of doing things, there's no turning back once you learn how to zerg a quest independently of a healer. we're not intentionally creating a sub-class, the sub-class has ALWAYS been there once the meta-game community formed, honestly i'd be postponing my own goals to help you learn quests/grind the gear to do it effectively. i dont expect a completionist to build my toons for me for each class and run me through all the quests and classes he's already completed just because he's better at it than i am. it's something i have to do on my own.

    trust me on this- learning for yourself and taking the leap from 'learning' to 'zerging' is ABSOLUTELY worth the effort. too many people now are getting to level 20 without learning the game.
    Soturi . Ghallanda Rerolled
    [7/18/2012 12:22:24 AM] D. H.: i mean, i'm not as experienced as, say, a vegas hooker, but i can confidently say that you're a lot more aggressive than like 90% of the guys i've been with.

  4. #24
    Community Member psi0nix's Avatar
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    I'm quite effective as a "member" of a party, but not as "leader", and that's where it would be great to have experienced players around leading quests to show "how it's done".

    It just seems all the PUGS are run by people like me, who don't fully know the quests and this leads to issues with completion etc.

    Anyone can follow instructions, (that want to learn), but when your giving the instructions it's very different, and it's usually then that I realise I don't know the quests as well as I thought.

    It would be great to have some more thorough walk throughs to point us nubs in the right direction as far as the quests go.

    Maybe i'll try to solo more and perhaps even drop the elite bonus, I'm banking 20 now and basically waiting to TR again into a wiz, soon as I get the gear to twink it.

    I guess the next life will be the most interesting because I won't have had such a long break between and may actually remember alot of the quests.


    Once again though, it would be good if alot more of the "good" players PUG'd regularly so those of us without the know-how can learn.

  5. #25
    Community Member MownDown's Avatar
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    Step 1~ Buy Cure srs Pots
    Step 2~ Run to quest.
    Step 3~ look wherever you have your quest objectives.
    Step 4~ Read said objectives (Although i know reading can be hard for some ppl, lamar burton taught us that it can be FUN!)
    Step 5~ Complete quest and gain 2k xp per minute!

  6. #26
    Community Member Pewf's Avatar
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    Well for me and friends, we always had a saying of something that goes along the lines of...

    "You learn best when you solo it." (of course referring to quests, not raids )

    I've learned how to do inferno in ten minutes, I use to not be able to do that until I solo'd it with the wiki up for a 45 minute completion.

    Same with Coal, 68 minutes for first completion completely solo, now I can do it in about ~25 if I zerg.

    There is others as well, like Wiz King, Amrath, etc.

    I never put up ''know it'' lfms either, so if you ever see any of my toons pugging/leading , feel free to hit my lfms. I don't really explain it, unless you ask, but still.
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  7. #27
    Community Member Claransa's Avatar
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    just my 2 cents but i don't like this blur thats occuring more and more often with the terms noob and newb. They are very different things.

    Noob: Doesn't learn because they aren't even trying to learn they just seem to be playing a different game than the rest of us.

    Newb: short for newbie who is new to the game and is earnestly trying to learn how to do it well but is often frustrated becaue of the blur occuring between these two terms.

    Unfortunately there SEEMS to be more noobs than newbs in the game and this makes it hard for people actually trying to learn the game, because those of us who know the game better (not necessarily all epic geared out leets) are also getting frustrated and just don't want to deal with the stupidity anymore. I wish i had an easy answer for you OP but I think it must begin by always keeping mind the difference between noobs and newbs by both those new to the game of those of us with more experience running the content.

    Personally i'm still at the stage where i'm soloing the quests to really get to know them before leading LFMs. I for one take having the star as a serious responsibility. To have 5 to 11 people i don't know and who don't know me looking to me to get them at least a completion is intimidating. This obviously is easier if everyone "knows" the quest, BYOH and are geared. I could be mistaken but i believe I am not alone in this and that there is an emerging generation of players getting ready to seize the star and lead newbs but not noobs through the content of DDO. I suggest patience learning the content is not easy, it takes time and often lots of failures.

    I've been playing the game for just over 2 years and one of the most interesting aspects of this game is it history. I couldn't even begin to describe or you to believe the process that was involved in figuring out how greensteel crafting was discovered and documented so all the rest of us could easily make some of the most powerful items still in the game.

    (whew) longest post i've ever written

  8. #28
    Community Member psi0nix's Avatar
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    So the general consensus seems to be, solo the quests on normal to learn them before trying to lead the quest.

    I will certainly give this a go, I've been kind of doing that backwards, wherein I only solo the quests I know very well, and look to the PUG for those I don't.

  9. #29
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    yes thats what i did too..

    first characters in the game, pugs, doesnt go smooth, but eventually got to 20. it was a challenge.

    made myself a sorc, tried to just solo what i can. no one to get mad when i screw up
    no pressure. easiest way to learn. norm isn't quite so difficult but can be if u didnt have some gear and cash
    so gearing yourself up is also important. Thats why it helps if one of ur chars reaches 20 or as high as u can get it since cash becomes easier, then use that to gear up a new alt.

    Sorcs and wiz's i think are the best for soloing. FVS or Clerics are not that good until lvl 11. Self healing also saves a lot of money

  10. #30
    Founder Nysrock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psi0nix View Post
    So the general consensus seems to be, solo the quests on normal to learn them before trying to lead the quest.

    I will certainly give this a go, I've been kind of doing that backwards, wherein I only solo the quests I know very well, and look to the PUG for those I don't.
    You don't HAVE to solo the quest to learn it. You could just post an LFM saying "Learning quest, No zergs, Newbs Welcome"

    I usually play however the party decides, zerg or not, and I hate it when you have that one guy in the group who has to show how Uber he is by zerging ahead and killing everything even after the party leader asks everyone to stick together. Just try to avoid those people when you group and you should be able to learn the quest while grouping with others.
    ... a soldier,
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  11. #31
    Community Member ainmosni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nysrock View Post
    You don't HAVE to solo the quest to learn it. You could just post an LFM saying "Learning quest, No zergs, Newbs Welcome"

    I usually play however the party decides, zerg or not, and I hate it when you have that one guy in the group who has to show how Uber he is by zerging ahead and killing everything even after the party leader asks everyone to stick together. Just try to avoid those people when you group and you should be able to learn the quest while grouping with others.
    This. as soon as i hit cap on my first level 20 toon, Yenaver, as 20 ranger arcane archer (dex based) the first thing i did was go into von1 epic with a group of total absolute gimps (i put up the lfm) and we CRAWWWWWLLLLED through that dungeon. i had never run von1 before at all before that.

    things i learned:

    my to-hit was not where it should be
    there are many safe spots/perches in von1 you can take advantage of
    wounding of puncturing shortbows are terrible against epic mobs and will NOT make them go into auto crit, no matter how much pew pew you do to them.

    we wiped, we had no business in there. we didnt know the quest, our tactics were flawed, not one vet in the group to lead the way. I was the party leader and i had NEVER DONE AN EPIC, and had NEVER DONE THAT PARTICULAR QUEST.

    but what this did was make me re-evaluate my build, learn what strengths to play at in epics, and basic of epic mob AI exploitation. next epic i went in to i was more prepared.

    dont be afraid to lead groups! just go go go. so what if you fail? next time you go in, i bet whatever was in the quest where your minimap becomes ominously black wont kill you so easily next time.
    Soturi . Ghallanda Rerolled
    [7/18/2012 12:22:24 AM] D. H.: i mean, i'm not as experienced as, say, a vegas hooker, but i can confidently say that you're a lot more aggressive than like 90% of the guys i've been with.

  12. #32
    Community Member belaf52's Avatar
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    I mainly learned this game by playing a Cleric. I often joined PUGs and mention "Must say : first/second time in this quest" as soon as "hi" was said. I dont know if it's because healer are rare, but the leader often explained me what we were about to do. I was kind of playing an hireling who obey on voice beside click :P

    I joined vet group who were doing tough (epic quest, hard/elite/epic raid, etc) quest too and still mentioned this sentence.

    I play on Cannith.
    Last edited by belaf52; 02-13-2012 at 11:19 PM. Reason: typo

  13. #33
    Community Member psi0nix's Avatar
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    I'll give it a go tonight, see if I can solo run some of the quests I don't know. I envision many deaths :P

  14. #34
    Community Member Blackmoors's Avatar
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    Greetings OP

    I think your approach is not the correct tbh. Your looking for guides on how to do quests or people with more experience to lead you and that is a bad point on how to really learn how to do the quests and master your character. Also, you must understand that some people, like myself, have limited time to play and as such we want to do as much as we can in that "window" of time. Guilds and Channels are ingame for a reason, so you can find like minded people, both in personality and gaming experience, to help you quest together and complete similar goals ingame, while at the same time having someone to chat with.

    Ive been playing the game since, well, the game exists. Had to do some breaks now and then do to RL but ive been playing steady since Beta. Back then, no one knew anything and there were quests that, due to low testing from the devs and the existence of many bugs, were impossible to complete. There were other quests that were so difficult, it was normal for us to fail. How did I learned it? By running them over and over again till I got the hang of it. It may seem boring to repeat the quest many times but I assure you it was great fun and I had a sense of achievement that is very hard to replicate nowadays.

    The game has evolved and improved vastly but the premise, at least for me, its the same. The best way to learn a quest is by doing it. You dont need a guide nor do you have to solo it at a higher level. Do the quests at level on normal difficulty (or even casual for that mater) and pay attention to the story arc, the dialogues, were the traps are, what enemy's are you facing, what weapons and spells are more effective, etc. Thats how you learn how to better your playing skills in DDO and at the same time you mastering your character. Remember that knowing the quests isnt all, you have to learn the game mechanics, how the dynamic fight works to take advantage of it, how to maximize your character, etc...

    Also, you cant imagine the times I had to reroll my characters over and over again, something that today you can just TR and get a better and improved version. The game is way more noob friendly now, not only on how to build your characters but also on how to better learn the quests. Casual and Normal difficulties are a very easy way to learn them and even lead a group through them. If you dont want to group (which I encourage you to do since the social aspect of the game is very good and this is a cooperation game after all), you have the option of one or more hirelings to help you out. Be patient and slowly but surely you will master the game and soon you will be the one putting the LFMs "no noobs please"

    Take my advice as just a opinion ofc
    Hope all works out for you!

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    Black
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  15. #35
    Community Member Denegrator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ainmosni View Post
    i learned how to play ddo by playing ddo.

    when i joined there was a vet/newbie discrimination, but honestly, i think figuring out the game for myself made me a better player in the long run.
    True enough, but I bet you also observed others and asked questions through your time playing.
    Hello, hope all is well. And if it isn't, sorry about that.

  16. #36
    Community Member BurningDownTheHouse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psi0nix View Post

    And that seems to be what's missing from the PUG community. How do you get to "know" a raid for example, when no-one will group with you because you "don't know it", and the only ones who will group are those who also don't know it, imagine a group where no-one has done it before trying to do LoB ? -
    Out of curiosity, when LoB first came out, how do you think people completed it?

    Never mind, I'll tell you how:
    Perseverance.
    Trial and error.
    Perseverance.
    Good team work.
    Perseverance.
    Some more perseverance.
    Perseverance.

    And lob was by far not the hardest raid to figure out.
    Try and look up how long it took people (from release) to complete the first Titan.
    Last edited by BurningDownTheHouse; 02-14-2012 at 06:01 AM.
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  17. #37
    Community Member psi0nix's Avatar
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    In a way that's the kind of thing I was talking about, the channels etc that are not really for "like minded" people, it's more for "elite only" players, and the rest are left in the "normal" trade / public channels, and end up using PUG only.

    I've just finished running delirium solo, was rather easy, I think having the ability to take your time makes the quest alot easier aswell, alot of PUGs seem to want to rush rush rush, and it leaves little time to actually learn the quest and is more "keep up".

    I'd say it's different for everyone, but at this point in time, for me, it seems that solo running the quests is the best way to learn the quests.

    I'm fairly familiar with the mechanics (in general), and am able to build a toon based on what I am after at end game.

    Help is always appreciated in it's many forms

    It's just it seems that there is alot of "exclusive" parts of the game that many never get to see / experience because they are not one of the "elite" players.

    I've never seen any other channels but "trade, guild, combat". Being "not of the elite" I guess I never will, and if it's such an exclusive club I'm not all that sure I want to.

    Especially when some in "those" channels are deliberately leading people into their death and laughing about it in their channels etc, making fun of the "noobs" etc.

    IMO it takes a massive amount of the players out of the general population and leaves those who wish to learn with nothing but the PUGs made up of those who are either new or not wanted for whatever reason in those groups / channels.


    When the game first came out, I'll be betting there was no channels exclusive to "good" or "elite" players, and everyone would have evolved along the same lines, learning the game and coming across like minded people in day to day playing.

    Whereas now, that does not seem to be the case, as those who are "good" to quest with are in their group and that's that.

    There has been some good advice here, thanks all, and I will be taking some leaving others, hopefully I'll be a competent quest leader one of these days : even if I have to make a WF wiz torced up with bodyfeeder etc so I can just solo everything and take others with on the quests, maybe even help some new players out.


    To give you all an idea of the PUG lists I see all the time here's a screenshot. :
    (resized so not so big)

    http://wikkedtribe.com/wp-content/up...nShot00001.jpg <-- this taken at a time when if you go to the "who" panel there are literally hundreds of people online...where are they all ... I wonder
    Last edited by psi0nix; 02-14-2012 at 06:18 AM.

  18. #38
    Community Member Chette's Avatar
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    I don't know what LFM panel you're looking at, but 90% of what I see just lists the quest being done and what classes are desired...no mention of nubs at all. Just join them, be clear that you don't know the quest very well but are happy to learn and will try to take care of yourself, and you should be fine.

    I don't reject/kick people from my group as long as they try, even when running my double TRs and they die every quest. Most people I've played with are the same. There's the occasional uber-elitist, you don't want to group with them anyway, trust me.

    But back to the "how do we learn" assuming you don't want to just go into a quest blind, MOST of the information about what you will need for quests is on the wiki. It will generally tell you about traps, what resists might be useful, and other information.

    I remember back when I was playing my first character, she was a Cleric and around level 10 I started to notice the XP was getting a little light. I kept seeing LFMs up for Tempest Spine, but I heard is was a "raid", which I had no idea what that meant, and I was really nervous about joining a group since I didn't know what I was supposed to do. I poured over the information in Am I raid ready at least 10 times before I ever hit an LFM. I made sure I had every freaking possibly immunity item and freedom and restoration all prepped...and the raid was over in like 15 minutes with me barely doing anything, lol!

    So ya, there's lots of information available. Try to read it and be as prepared as you can be. Always carry standard items like disease/curse/poison/resist energy potions, as well as some way to heal yourself. Ask questions if you're not sure what's going on, and you'll be fine.
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  19. #39
    Community Member Blackmoors's Avatar
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    I think your failing to understand what people are trying to tell you mate. Guilds and channels are for like minded people and as such, they will want like minded people. What you call elites its just a bunch of people that group together to complete similar goals ingame, goals that you, as a player starting "just now" may not have.

    Guilds and/or groups of people exist since day one. This game mimics life in that aspect, as in you choose who you want to hang with. Lets assume your goal ingame, as you have put it, its to learn the game so your not a "noob". You should "hang with" people that also want to learn the game and not with people that already have learned it! Lets say your starting to learn poker, you want to play right away with the professionals are take it east and learn the "ropes" with less experienced players...?

    I fail to understand why would you want to quest with people that have so different goals than you do. I for once hate spoilers, as in when I dont know a quest, I dont like people telling me what to do. Discovering stuff on my own is one of the most exciting aspects for me but hey, to each his own right...? IMO you seem to want a quick way to reach the "top" and people are trying to tell you that the fun is in getting there, that the game has a learning curve for you to follow that will inevitably lead you there, You dont need to take a shortcut...
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  20. #40
    Community Member psi0nix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmoors View Post
    I think your failing to understand what people are trying to tell you mate. Guilds and channels are for like minded people and as such, they will want like minded people. What you call elites its just a bunch of people that group together to complete similar goals ingame, goals that you, as a player starting "just now" may not have.

    Guilds and/or groups of people exist since day one. This game mimics life in that aspect, as in you choose who you want to hang with. Lets assume your goal ingame, as you have put it, its to learn the game so your not a "noob". You should "hang with" people that also want to learn the game and not with people that already have learned it! Lets say your starting to learn poker, you want to play right away with the professionals are take it east and learn the "ropes" with less experienced players...?

    I fail to understand why would you want to quest with people that have so different goals than you do. I for once hate spoilers, as in when I dont know a quest, I dont like people telling me what to do. Discovering stuff on my own is one of the most exciting aspects for me but hey, to each his own right...? IMO you seem to want a quick way to reach the "top" and people are trying to tell you that the fun is in getting there, that the game has a learning curve for you to follow that will inevitably lead you there, You dont need to take a shortcut...
    I think your failing to read my posts, I'm no-where at all saying that I wish to group with the best players in the game, and actually have not mentioned my goals as a player etc, this actually started as a "How do I learn the quests" thread, and has evolved into this.

    Unfortunately I am not "new" to the game, I'm on my 1st TR, have run most quests in the game, I came back after a 2 yr break from the game, and what I found was so very different to what it was. Good players only group now with "good" players they know, those that are not known / are not in those groups have no chance of getting with "like minded" people because they only group with others already in their "group".

    Did you look at the screenshot of the pugs i posted ? http://wikkedtribe.com/wp-content/up...nShot00001.jpg (as a level 19 on 1st TR toon which one of those groups should I go for ? ) , the other option is to create one, and lead a quest, wherein lies the problem, I don't particularly like "leading" a group when I myself don't know the quest fully. Which really just leaves as has been said here, solo runs until I know the quests well enough to lead others through them.

    It always ends up with who ever does know it (or thinks they do) zerging off ahead dying or creating a red alert for us to deal with, and all sorts of messy things.

    The reason the PUGs have such a bad rep is because all the "good" players no longer play PUG.

    So that leaves the blind leading the blind, and of course those that are just plain unwanted in those groups, mayhap because they are not team players / are reckless, whatever the reason, but it really makes getting a good start difficult for "new" or like myself, returning players wishing to get to know the new aspects of the game.
    Last edited by psi0nix; 02-14-2012 at 06:57 AM.

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