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  1. #1
    Community Member psi0nix's Avatar
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    Default How are us nubs supposed to learn ?

    I play mainly PUGs, because it's the only groups I have, due to time zone etc, I'd only get to run a quest or 2 at most with the guild.

    Now, I see alot of complaining etc, directed towards "noobs" etc for not knowing the quests etc, and to be honest in most pugs I have been in, hardly anyone does know the quests and there is very little in the way of communication.

    Then it occured to me, how are we all supposed to learn them ?

    There are channels on the servers that "keep out" the non-elite / non-highly experienced players, when those people run quests / raids, they only recruit from within those channels so everyone knows the quest / raid very well etc.

    So what we have is one large group that has done the quests a million times etc, knows them backwards, but only groups with others that are similarly in the know.

    Then you have the "other" group, (PUG), where hardly anyone is in the know. And this is what I am left to run with.

    I have attempted to follow guides / walkthroughs, printed maps / strats etc, but none of that seems to really encompass what is inside a quest and where to go / what to do to complete, the only other alternative is to just enter and wander around and try to work it out, which takes a long time, and seems to be the reason the experienced players will not group in a PUG.

    Those that have usually will pass comments like "I can't believe you don't have <insert essential item / pot / scroll / weapon> for this quest !" <-- how are we supposed to know we need that ? (it's not in the "guide" or walkthrough we wouldn't have a chance of knowing, many of the guides consist of things like : walk to the end of hallway, go upstairs, end fight. It fails to mention the 20 mobs / what they are / what immunities they have / best weps to use etc.

    So I ask, how are we supposed to "learn" anything when there is no-one to teach ?

    When the players who know the quests / what is required / how to do "that" part which seems impossible on your first time run through won't group with anyone but those who do know then what does that leave ? - noobs leading noobs .

    There have been some exceptions to the rule, but it seems rare, I don't like putting up an LFM when I clearly do not know the quest, but it seems that I am left with little choice, as if I don't put up a LFM then it's solo it or don't do it, and while solo running is fun in some instances there are simply some quests that I have been unable to achieve this on, such as in Amrath, and lets be honest when you go in and just die with no hope of res, then it takes the "fun" out of the game and leaves you not really wanting to "go into that" again.

    So, how are we noobs supposed to learn ? -

    btw: I don't think there is anything wrong with being a "noob", everyone was at some point. But most had help to de-noobify themselves, it seems that there is no longer many that actually wish to help, even the pugs now are asking for BYOH, know it ! , etc.

    What other resources are there ?
    Last edited by psi0nix; 02-13-2012 at 04:47 PM.

  2. #2
    Community Member ainmosni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psi0nix View Post
    I play mainly PUGs, because it's the only groups I have, due to time zone etc, I'd only get to run a quest or 2 at most with the guild.

    Now, I see alot of complaining etc, directed towards "noobs" etc for not knowing the quests etc, and to be honest in most pugs I have been in, hardly anyone does know the quests and there is very little in the way of communication.

    Then it occured to me, how are we all supposed to learn them ?

    There are channels on the servers that "keep out" the non-elite / non-highly experienced players, when those people run quests / raids, they only recruit from within those channels so everyone knows the quest / raid very well etc.

    So what we have is one large group that has done the quests a million times etc, knows them backwards, but only groups with others that are similarly in the know.

    Then you have the "other" group, (PUG), where hardly anyone is in the know. And this is what I am left to run with.

    I have attempted to follow guides / walkthroughs, printed maps / strats etc, but none of that seems to really encompass what is inside a quest and where to go / what to do to complete, the only other alternative is to just enter and wander around and try to work it out, which takes a long time, and seems to be the reason the experienced players will not group in a PUG.

    So I ask, how are we supposed to "learn" anything when there is no-one to teach ?

    When the players who know the quests / what is required / how to do "that" part which seems impossible on your first time run through won't group with anyone but those who do know then what does that leave ? - noobs leading noobs .

    There have been some exceptions to the rule, but it seems rare, I don't like putting up an LFM when I clearly do not know the quest, but it seems that I am left with little choice, as if I don't put up a LFM then it's solo it or don't do it, and while solo running is fun in some instances there are simply some quests that I have been unable to achieve this on, such as in Amrath, and lets be honest when you go in and just die with no hope of res, then it takes the "fun" out of the game and leaves you not really wanting to "go into that" again.

    So, how are we noobs supposed to learn ? -

    btw: I don't think there is anything wrong with being a "noob", everyone was at some point. But most had help to de-noobify themselves, it seems that there is no longer many that actually wish to help, even the pugs now are asking for BYOH, know it ! , etc.

    What other resources are there ?
    i learned how to play ddo by playing ddo.

    when i joined there was a vet/newbie discrimination, but honestly, i think figuring out the game for myself made me a better player in the long run.
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    [7/18/2012 12:22:24 AM] D. H.: i mean, i'm not as experienced as, say, a vegas hooker, but i can confidently say that you're a lot more aggressive than like 90% of the guys i've been with.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by psi0nix View Post
    So I ask, how are we supposed to "learn" anything when there is no-one to teach ?
    1. It is incorrect to say that no one is available to teach these things. Those people do actually exist, even if they don't sit there waiting around in LFM PUG lists.

    2. There are web pages which have a large range of data on them.

    3. Alternatively, you can learn it the same way players originally did, which involves going inside the quest and observing what happens.

  4. #4
    Community Member MsEricka's Avatar
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    There's lots of people willing to teach. There's very few who are actually willing to learn.

    Join pugs, that's how a lot of people learned. Also check ddowiki.com for info on quests.

  5. #5
    Community Member Kadran's Avatar
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    The easiest way to learn a quest is to be overlevel. Take a 20 into the pit and feel your way around. There is little consequence and you can go your own speed.

    As far as high level/epic quests are concerned, you have very limited options. My suggestion is find a new guild with players in your time zone. Or at least some friends that you've ran with a few times and had good experiences with. Too few people friend people from PuGs now-a-days.

    I'd be glad to run with you if you have a 15-18 character. find me on Graype. Or if you're sitting at cap, give me a week or so and look for me then. Sadly, my play time isn't what it used to be and on a 4th life TR going 16-20 is almost the same exp required to go 1-16...

    Edit: I start quests solo as IP or BYOH. You will be expected to have some pots/scrolls/wands/etc to take care of yourself.

  6. #6
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    Grab a hireling and try...

    Start from normal and work your way to elite and even epic.Soon you`ll know where every mob spawns what are the weaknesses of certain mobs and act appropriately no matter at what Difficulty you are running it,revisiting some of those quest when you are capped is also a good idea.

    No1 is going to hold your hand and teach you every single detail of the quest,no1 can tell you how to play your class and build in a quest and no1 wants to spend his precious game time teaching you.

    (Well to be perfectly honest there are some around,i used to be one of them,but the level of stupidity and almost zero knowledge of the game by the majority of pugs was making it hard and painful and i stopped.TEACH MEEEEH!WHAT SHOULD I DOOO NOW!YOU ARE A NOOB I CAN DO IT BETTER etc)

    How you think players make a name of themselves and get to the next level in Ghallanda(Besides Kissing A$$ all day to get in a nice guild)?

  7. #7
    Founder Nysrock's Avatar
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    What times are you on and what level quests are you trying to run? I am on EST and while I don't know every quest in the game (there are some I never did yet) I do know a majority of them.

    Mainly what I do when I don't know a quest is try and solo it or duo it with my brother. That way if it takes us an hour at least we learn it and don't have someone zerging ahead killing everything.

    I am currently at level 16 on my main, Grundal, but have others from 17-20. Feel free to look me up in the game and I'll be happy to help how I can.
    ... a soldier,
    Full of strange oaths, and bearded like the pard,
    Jealous in honor, sudden and quick in quarrel,
    Seeking the bubble reputation,
    Even in the dragon's mouth.

  8. #8
    Community Member Psiandron's Avatar
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    Psionix,
    I play on Ghallanda and I think you've just had some bad breaks with the goups you've joined. Mostly, I find that the people there are pretty patient and willing to help out someone, so long as they make an honest effort to learn. If you haven't done a quest or raid, just say so at the outset. There are a lot of people out there who are willing to show you the ropes.

    You should be careful about the lfms you hit. Watch out for keywords that say that the person leading doesn't want to take time for you or anyone else.
    Quote Originally Posted by MalkavianX View Post
    and then dropped it like a burning kitten

  9. #9
    Community Member psi0nix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ainmosni View Post
    i learned how to play ddo by playing ddo.

    when i joined there was a vet/newbie discrimination, but honestly, i think figuring out the game for myself made me a better player in the long run.
    That's all well and good for what I'd say is a "majority" of quest, but there are also many instances where just "having a go" only leads to deaths, many deaths, and there is not always a guide for quests.

    I have the "Crafting guide / game guide", that lists most of the quests, gives maps and information, but alot of the time it leaves vital information out.

    In general I'm ok, my sorc is on his 2nd life and I can nuke / SLA my way through most things, but there are exceptions (like Amrath (weapons shipment)) etc, and I need others to help run it, but then they get the brown stickies because you put up an LFM for a quest that you don't know very well, and need to take time here and there to get your bearings / sort out what needs to be done. Usually this ends up with someone charging off and getting red alert, dying and by proxy half the group dies.

    And then it's just a mess.

    What sites have these "good" guides ? - I don't mind reading information / watching vids etc, but it would be good if they had more in it than - Go to point a, then point b, kill boss.

    Something that has information like : All players will need cold resist for this end fight / don't go into the left room on second floor as <nasty thing> spawns and is very hard to kill.

    My sense of direction is not that great :P and I end up getting crossed sometimes as to which way we are supposed to be going.

    I can heal myself (limited) and always carry 100 heal scrolls, but that's only really good for keeping myself alive, not a group.

    I usually play at night (+10GMT) from about 6pm onwards. On the weekends I play from friday through to sunday.

    When I'm in group I have no worries "keeping up" / killing whatever, but I do have trouble leading groups, and that's where the problems are, alot of the quests I need / want to do, there are no LFm's up that aren't asking for "elite" players, which I don't consider myself to be. So i'm left leading a group with only a partial idea of what to do / where to go / whats best.

    Edit: Don't get me wrong, not ALL players / groups are like this, I have come across some very good players who are nice people to group with and actually let you know what is expected in the next room etc, it's just unfortunately not the majority.

    It's getting to the point where I don't want to put a LFM up because I don't want to try to lead through quests that I don't know bezactly, and I try to avoid creating "agro" from other players.
    Last edited by psi0nix; 02-13-2012 at 05:24 PM.

  10. #10
    Founder Nysrock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psi0nix View Post
    That's all well and good for what I'd say is a "majority" of quest, but there are also many instances where just "having a go" only leads to deaths, many deaths, and there is not always a guide for quests.

    I have the "Crafting guide / game guide", that lists most of the quests, gives maps and information, but alot of the time it leaves vital information out.

    In general I'm ok, my sorc is on his 2nd life and I can nuke / SLA my way through most things, but there are exceptions (like Amrath (weapons shipment)) etc, and I need others to help run it, but then they get the brown stickies because you put up an LFM for a quest that you don't know very well, and need to take time here and there to get your bearings / sort out what needs to be done. Usually this ends up with someone charging off and getting red alert, dying and by proxy half the group dies.

    And then it's just a mess.

    What sites have these "good" guides ? - I don't mind reading information / watching vids etc, but it would be good if they had more in it than - Go to point a, then point b, kill boss.

    Something that has information like : All players will need cold resist for this end fight / don't go into the left room on second floor as <nasty thing> spawns and is very hard to kill.

    My sense of direction is not that great :P and I end up getting crossed sometimes as to which way we are supposed to be going.
    Just be up front with people about not knowing the quest. I have joined some like that and most people don't mind as long as you let them know up front.
    ... a soldier,
    Full of strange oaths, and bearded like the pard,
    Jealous in honor, sudden and quick in quarrel,
    Seeking the bubble reputation,
    Even in the dragon's mouth.

  11. #11
    Community Member psi0nix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nysrock View Post
    Just be up front with people about not knowing the quest. I have joined some like that and most people don't mind as long as you let them know up front.
    Thanks for the advice, I'll certainly try, sometimes I don't like to say because some will remove / dismiss because I don't know it, and it makes it hard to get the flag etc.

    I am TR'd, but, I levelled to cap about 2yrs ago, then had a break until about 2 months ago, so much in the game has changed and it's a little embarrasing sometimes to say "oh, I don't know this one", as everyone seems to think just because your TR'd that your "elite" or you know the quests backwards.

  12. #12
    Community Member Zenthalas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psi0nix View Post
    I play mainly PUGs, because it's the only groups I have, due to time zone etc, I'd only get to run a quest or 2 at most with the guild.

    Now, I see alot of complaining etc, directed towards "noobs" etc for not knowing the quests etc, and to be honest in most pugs I have been in, hardly anyone does know the quests and there is very little in the way of communication.

    Then it occured to me, how are we all supposed to learn them ?

    There are channels on the servers that "keep out" the non-elite / non-highly experienced players, when those people run quests / raids, they only recruit from within those channels so everyone knows the quest / raid very well etc.

    So what we have is one large group that has done the quests a million times etc, knows them backwards, but only groups with others that are similarly in the know.

    Then you have the "other" group, (PUG), where hardly anyone is in the know. And this is what I am left to run with.

    I have attempted to follow guides / walkthroughs, printed maps / strats etc, but none of that seems to really encompass what is inside a quest and where to go / what to do to complete, the only other alternative is to just enter and wander around and try to work it out, which takes a long time, and seems to be the reason the experienced players will not group in a PUG.

    Those that have usually will pass comments like "I can't believe you don't have <insert essential item / pot / scroll / weapon> for this quest !" <-- how are we supposed to know we need that ? (it's not in the "guide" or walkthrough we wouldn't have a chance of knowing, many of the guides consist of things like : walk to the end of hallway, go upstairs, end fight. It fails to mention the 20 mobs / what they are / what immunities they have / best weps to use etc.

    So I ask, how are we supposed to "learn" anything when there is no-one to teach ?

    When the players who know the quests / what is required / how to do "that" part which seems impossible on your first time run through won't group with anyone but those who do know then what does that leave ? - noobs leading noobs .

    There have been some exceptions to the rule, but it seems rare, I don't like putting up an LFM when I clearly do not know the quest, but it seems that I am left with little choice, as if I don't put up a LFM then it's solo it or don't do it, and while solo running is fun in some instances there are simply some quests that I have been unable to achieve this on, such as in Amrath, and lets be honest when you go in and just die with no hope of res, then it takes the "fun" out of the game and leaves you not really wanting to "go into that" again.

    So, how are we noobs supposed to learn ? -

    btw: I don't think there is anything wrong with being a "noob", everyone was at some point. But most had help to de-noobify themselves, it seems that there is no longer many that actually wish to help, even the pugs now are asking for BYOH, know it ! , etc.

    What other resources are there ?
    You learn them the same way us vets have, by trial and error. Or you watch and learn and listen to directions, learn how the basic combat works in game, threat management etc. Most of the vets that are worth anything are willing to help as long as you play smart and are able to man up to the fact that you don't know the quest.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nysrock View Post
    Just be up front with people about not knowing the quest. I have joined some like that and most people don't mind as long as you let them know up front.
    ^ that. Beyond that, yes, i do form grps for more difficult things like Edragon and EDQ from channel/guild. But for just about anything else, i throw up pugs, and I know im not the only one. I have no problems teaching people, however alot of the time people dont listen, or have an attitude about it. They think im being condescending or something. Im not, just tryin to help ya. Again, Im sure im not the only one

  14. #14
    Community Member Ganolyn's Avatar
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    Another way is to put up LFM's that say "Trying to Learn the Quest - Need a Guide, No Zerging Please."

    At least most of the people that join up will know what is going on and if they don't pay attention to the LFM they can't really blame anyone but themselves for that. This method will have the advantage of attracting the type of player you would like to have teach you the ropes of a quest.
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  15. #15
    Community Member grodon9999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ganolyn View Post
    Another way is to put up LFM's that say "Trying to Learn the Quest - Need a Guide, No Zerging Please."

    At least most of the people that join up will know what is going on and if they don't pay attention to the LFM they can't really blame anyone but themselves for that. This method will have the advantage of attracting the type of player you would like to have teach you the ropes of a quest.
    That absolutely will work.

    When many of us F2P "vets" started out we got no help at all by the established players (for whatever reasons . . .) and this was a GOOD thing. We learned the quests at our own pace and got a better grasp of the game that way.

    Playing with your peers is best, find 5 other new guys and journey together.

  16. #16
    Community Member Aethene's Avatar
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    Believe it or not.... at one point the game was new and NOBODY knew stuff.... Then they learned the quests through repetition and observation. Might I suggest you do the same?

  17. #17
    Community Member psi0nix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aethene View Post
    Believe it or not.... at one point the game was new and NOBODY knew stuff.... Then they learned the quests through repetition and observation. Might I suggest you do the same?
    They also learned the quests with others in groups without being abused for "not knowing it" and without "elite" players excluding them from groups, your point is somewhat invalid considering the current climate of the game.

    "I had to do it the hard way, so should you, and also you should cop flak about it from others who do know".

    That kind of sums up that statement.

    I'm not asking for people to "hold my hand" through quests, just that those with experience and know-how try not to exclude those without from quests, as it just creates a sub-class of players that don't know the game and have no direction apart from the very limited compendium to get their info from.

    two types of player have reared their heads in this thread alone, those that are helpful and those who are not.

    It's the helpful players that I am interested in. The quests I do know I try to help others through, no matter how "new" they are, to me it just seems the nice thing to do and creates more better players to group with later.

  18. #18

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    There are very few consumables in this game that are used so seldom it doesnt make sense to carry them all the time. Not sure what you were missing for "X" quest, but chances are your missing that for a whole bunch of quests.

    Believe it or not, vets were not born with DDO quest information ingrained in their brains. They had to run a quest a few times as well before they "knew it".

    The DDOWiki has pretty complete details on just about every quest int he game. What mobs to expect. Basic walk throughs. Worth a read.

    there have been plenty of quests that I spent a rediculous amount of time in the first few times through. 300+ Minute Crucible comes to mind.....

    Smeones got to swim through that? Thats impossible!
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  19. #19
    Community Member Luis_Velderve's Avatar
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    Learning never ends. Get in a good guild and find someone with experience running alts. Read DDOWIKI, Forums and ask google questions, do not use Ghallanda Advice Channel unless you are crazy.

    And do not forget the 5 p´s; PROPER PREPARATION PREVENTS ****ING PERFORMANCE.
    Quote Originally Posted by justagame View Post
    I assume you're joking.

    (But just in case you're not, posts like this don't help, don't pretend to speak for others.)

  20. #20
    Community Member psi0nix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Impaqt View Post
    There are very few consumables in this game that are used so seldom it doesnt make sense to carry them all the time. Not sure what you were missing for "X" quest, but chances are your missing that for a whole bunch of quests.

    Believe it or not, vets were not born with DDO quest information ingrained in their brains. They had to run a quest a few times as well before they "knew it".

    The DDOWiki has pretty complete details on just about every quest int he game. What mobs to expect. Basic walk throughs. Worth a read.

    there have been plenty of quests that I spent a rediculous amount of time in the first few times through. 300+ Minute Crucible comes to mind.....

    Smeones got to swim through that? Thats impossible!

    Yes a 5+hr crucible was my first run, now it's down to minutes, as long as I can get someone with evasion if it's on elite.

    I've been through most quests, those that are not "new", by new I mean newer than 2yrs.

    I use DDOwiki / craft guide / game guide, youtube / google / etc, but as I said not alot of that really prepares you to lead a group through the quests.

    If I am not the leader and the leadership is clear there is no problem, but doing quests that I don't really know as the leader is painful and frowned upon it seems, but when the lfm's are not there for that quest or they demand only "elite" players then what choice have I got but to try to lead a group through it ?

    There are some quests of course that I am able to such as dreaming dark elite, I solo that alot just to go for the ear dweller etc, but that doesen't make me a non-noob, it just means I know one quest well.

    And the only reason I know it well was because of an experienced player who helped me through it a couple times.

    And that seems to be what's missing from the PUG community. How do you get to "know" a raid for example, when no-one will group with you because you "don't know it", and the only ones who will group are those who also don't know it, imagine a group where no-one has done it before trying to do LoB ? -

    There's instances like in (arrgh - whats it's name in Amrath quest you use windwalker ability when the boss dumps gravity to get to the level to open the lightning chest) - things like that, a new player with no information would not have any real chance to work that out since they would be concentrating on the boss.

    Also in dreaming dark, if you don't have jump, you can "do" the quest still and be ok, but if you do have it then you can get the keys and unlock the doors etc to get to the secret chest, non of which is on the guide.

    I haven't read every bit of info on every quest, only the main ones I needed to TR.


    Dunno, maybe I'm just not quest leader material, but it sure makes the game alot harder when your restriced to playing only with others who don't know the quests aswell.
    Last edited by psi0nix; 02-13-2012 at 06:54 PM.

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