Results 1 to 13 of 13
  1. #1
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    99

    Default Onion Knight: 12fgtr/7rog/1barb Trapper -initial pass

    -------------------------------------------------------
    -------------------- ONION KNIGHT --------------------
    -------------------------------------------------------

    I’m in the process of TR-ing my first-life rogue to the following multi-class strength-based khopesh Kensi-II/Assassin-I (currently level 10). All thoughts and advice is appreciated, as this target end-game build is still in flux.

    My prior rogue (first-life drow) felt unplayably lacking at end-game. Base damage (vs. agro/high fort/SA immune) was painfully deficient, my attack bonus was inadequate (boss mobs especially), combat feats were practically useless (insufficient DCs), sneaking/assassinate wasn’t consistently successful, and I lacked the space for optional utility/damage feats I really wanted to carry. Most importantly, against the high AC/Fortification Purp/Red bosses in Elite/Epic, my damage was underwhelming. However...I really enjoy the skulking play-style!

    So...to alleviate my need to skulk (and function as the party rogue) while improving my base damage, I’ve decided on this 2nd life build (I’ll not be TRing again). I’ll have much better base damage, far higher attack bonus, more HPs, khopeshes rather than rapiers, high-DC stun, quicker movement (in and out of stealth), and more feats for utility. Sneak attack damage with rogue PL should average 50+ damage per weapon. And notably, I’m also not sacrificing any rogue-relevant skills, as I still surpass epic-worthy rogue skill thresholds.

    Of note - The ‘Onion Knight’ is (very) loosely based off my impressions of an ex-smuggler-turned-advisor in R.R. Martin’s ‘Song of Ice and Fire’ book series (or, more recently, HBO’s outstanding book-to-mini-series interpretation ‘Game of Thrones’). Please take a look. It’s still a work in progress, so all input is appreciated.


    ---------------------------------------------------------------
    --------------- CLASSES, PRESTIEGES, RACE, SA ---------------
    ---------------------------------------------------------------

    FIGHTER-12 / KENSI-II: To use an ‘Onion’ analogy, this is the core inner-layers of the Onion Knight. Many top DPS builds utilize 12-Fighter (Kensi-II), coupled with a 7/1 or 6/2 splash split to add more damage and functionality via ranger/rogue/barb/monk. 12 fighter w/ Kensi-II grant 7 feats (3 spent on Kensi prereqs for +1 to-hit, +4 damage), Kensi-II bonuses (to-hit, damage, seeker), Kensi weapon enhancements, power surge (8 str), extra action boosts (2), +3 STR enhancements, +5 stun DC, and 30% attack speed bonus. Most appealing to me is that the damage increase provided by Strength-base Kensi is mostly pre-crit non-situational damage (therefore, independent of mob-type or state of agro).

    ROGUE-7 / ASSASSIN-I: The outer layers of the Onion Knight; 7-rogue grants your 4th SA dice, and third SA damage enhancement (over level 6), in addition to exposing the Assassin-1 prestige at 6. With rogue past life active (and existing level-20 gear), I’ll average 50+ SA damage per weapon (and SA attack bonus) on top of the non-situational Kensi-II damage and attack bonus. My rogue skills (search/disable/unlock/spot/diplo) are worthy of elite/epic content, and UMD is capped. Much situational bonus damage and utility comes from this layer...

    BARBARIAN-1: The skin of the proverbial ‘Onion’ Knight analogy. Once I established a primary split of 12fighter/7rogue, I realized neither 13th-fighter nor 8th-rogue contribute much. One level of barb gives an inherent +%10 run speed, +%35 speed burst, a +1 power attack improvement, and a rage (+4 str, +40 HPs) for the start of boss fights. Maxing CON will increase rage duration, and with finding another rage charge via gear, I might be able to maintain rage for 3+ minutes...

    RACE: Human - I initially attempted to build with Halfling for the cunning and guile (SA damage & SA to-hit) enhancements. However, with update-11 changes to damage enhancements, I opted for human’s burst damage -- %25 human damage boost (which boosts all sources of melee damage, including SA) can be activated simultaneously with fighter attack-speed boost-IV (10 charges!). Also, the additional human bonus skill points (23 total) were critical in reaching epic-worthy rogue benchmarks. The extra feat added utility.

    --------------------------------------
    --------------- STATS ---------------
    --------------------------------------

    ---starting stats (34pt build)
    STR - 18 (+5 from levels)
    DEX - 14
    CON - 14
    INT - 14
    WIS - 8
    CHA - 8

    Being a strength-build, I capped strength, and will add all level-ups here. 14 Con is a minimum for a melee toon, imho. Along with human skillpoint bonus, 14 Int gave me the required skill points to hit Epic DCs (see below). I have banked a +3 Str tome and a +3 Dex tome (to reach 17 dex required for iTWF/gTWF). All other stats get +2 tomes at level 7. A +1 Dex tome was used at level 3 for 15-Dex required for TWF.


    --------------------------------------
    --------------- FEATS ---------------
    --------------------------------------

    This build has 15 feats (my last rogue iteration had 7). The first category contains the feats (11) I consider core to the build. The final category (4) I flip-flopped which to take, and decided on these for utility and flavor...

    ----(11) Core 2-weapon khop kensi feats & past-life
    *Full Two-Weapon Fighting Chain (twf, itwf, gtwf)
    *Exotic Weapon: Khop
    *PowerAttack
    *Improved Crit: Slash
    *Toughness
    *Weapon Focus 1 (for Kensi-1)
    *Weapon Specialization 1 (for Kensi-1)
    *Weapon Specialization 2 (for Kensi-2)
    *Rogue Past Life Feat: Much synergy!
    (passive) +1 to all ten relevant skills
    (activated) 3 charges of 1-minute stacking bonus to SA damge (+10), to-hit (+5), and +20 Hide/MS

    ----(4) Utility/Flavor feats
    *Stunning Blow: Stunning initiates sneak attacks and increases base damage
    *Improved Sunder: -5 AC, -%10 fortification, and -3 Fort save (even on failed save, can stack)
    *Oversized TWF: I’ll now have khops in both hands...this +2 to-hit will come in handy against end-game epic/elite AC
    *Hamstring: It would be criminal not to carry hamstring on this build...


    --------------------------------------------------
    --------------- SKILLS BREAKDOWN ---------------
    --------------------------------------------------

    This was the most challenging part of the build...finding a way to break epic-worthy rogue skills (50-Spot , 56-Search, 62-Disable, 56-OpenLock, 50-Diplo, 39-UMD) with only 7 levels of rogue. Rather gear intensive, but all the dots get connected well above current thresholds.

    -----Skill Points Invested While Leveling
    20-Spot
    20-Search
    23-Disable
    16-OpenLock
    23-UMD
    23-Diplo
    08-Tumble
    08-Balance
    04-Jump
    04-Hide
    04-MoveSilent


    ****** SPOT: Should be able to see all hidden mobs and get all trap/spot notices
    20-Spot Skill
    20-Epic Spyglass
    04-GH
    03-Wisdom (8 + 2tome +6item = 16)
    02-Luck
    01-Rogue PL
    -----
    50 standing (before ship or bard buffs)


    ******SEARCH: Will find everything in the game; overkill
    20-Search Skill
    20-E.Spyglass
    07-INT (24 via 14 start, +6 item, +2tome, +2 exceptional)
    06-GS Int+ skills
    04-GH
    02-Luck
    02-Skill boost
    02-Skill trade-in potion
    01-Rogue PL
    ----------
    64 possible (before ship or bard buffs)


    ******DISABLE: Disable every trap in the game (yes, Elite Cabal as well)
    23-DD Skill
    15-DD Item
    07-INT (24 via 14 start, +6 item, +2tome, +2 exceptional)
    06-GS Int+ skills
    07-Tools
    04-GH
    02-Luck
    02-Skill boost
    02-Skill trade-in potion
    01-Rogue PL
    ----------
    69 possible (before ship or bard buffs, or using +4 skill boost). 73 reachable via ship INT, ship skill increase, and using human +4 skill boost (rather than the +2 rogue counted above), making Elite Cabal’s 76-DC a NO-Fail :-)


    ******OPEN LOCK: Able to unlock everything but a few ****-loot chests
    16-Open Lock Skill
    15-Open Lock Item
    07-DEX (24 via 15 start, +6 item, +2tome, +1 exceptional)
    06-GS Int+ skills
    07-Tools
    04-GH
    02-Luck
    02-Skill boost
    02-Skill trade-in potion
    01-Rogue PL
    ----------
    62 possible (before ship or bard buffs)


    ******UMD: Will have standing UMD in the high 30s, before swaps/boosts
    23-UMD Skill
    06-Shroud Cha Item
    04-G Hero
    03-UMD bonus on E.Spyglass
    03-Charisma (8 + 2tome +6item = 16)
    02-Luck
    02-SkillBoost
    01-Rogue Past Life
    ------
    44 possible (before ship or bard buffs)


    ****** DIPLO: Standing value; more than enough to consistently shed epic-trash agro
    23-Diplo Skill
    15-Diplo Item
    02-Kensi
    04-GH
    02-Luck
    03-Charisma (8 + 2tome +6item = 16)
    01-Rogue PL
    -----
    50 (before ship or bard buffs)


    ****** STEALTH: High Hide/MoveSilent marks reachable via Rogue PL bursts
    04-Hide/MoveSilent at creation
    20-Activated Rogue PL
    15-Item
    05-Ghostly via Epic Ring of the Stalker
    07-Dex
    06-GreenSteel
    04-GH
    02-Luck
    02-Assassin prerequisite enhancements
    02-Assassin prestige
    01-Rogue PL
    -----
    68 -- Granted, this is only for 3 minutes while PL is active, but 68 in both hide/MS should allow me to sneak at any level. Firing Barb run-speed whilst stealthed should make the movement speed tolerable. Invis/Camo scrolls would allow me to break 100 hide...


    ****** TUMBLE: Showing off...
    8-Tumble Skill
    7-Dex
    6-GreenSteel
    4-GH
    2-Luck
    1-Rogue PL
    -----
    28 standing -- and with a single tumble potion or item, I’ll cross the 36-tumble threshold to gain all tumble leaping/roll-speed benefits. I did this for inherent fun-factor, as well for the players that will inevitably tell me I couldn’t possibly have high enough rogue skills for epics. I had enough points left to cap-out tumble...

    For capping out the Jump skill, I have the ToD +30 jump clickie belt for when I’m not grouped with an arcane...so I’ll be over the 40 jump-cap at all times. Therefore, I couldn’t rationalize investing more than the 4 at first level.


    --------------------------------------------------
    --------------- MELEE BREAKDOWN ---------------
    --------------------------------------------------

    Not sure exactly what my strength will end up, but starting with 18, +5 level-ups, +8 via powersurge (10 charges), +7 EpicBrawlers, +3 exceptional, +3 fighter enhancements, +3 banked tome, +1 human, +2 rage spell etc...I should have a maintainable 52+ strength. This is before ship buffs, alchemical buffs, madstone, yugo pots, rage feat, etc...

    *****STUNNING BLOW DC
    21+ via 52 Strength
    10-Base
    10-Weapon (alchemical knop)
    05-Spare Hand
    02-Kensi
    03-Fighter Enhancements (not taking 4th)
    -----
    51 Stunning Blow DC, if my strength is only 52 (low-end), before ship STR/DC buffs. I’ll also have Improved Sunder, which lowers fort save -3 (-6 if both hands hit). I expect to have more success with a 50+ DC stun-from-stealth than I did with Assassinate...

    *****SNEAK ATTACK DAMAGE
    +14 from 4d6 (at 3.5 average) from 7 levels of rogue
    +9 from three tiers of rogue SA enhancements
    +8 from SA Item
    +5 from exception SA (Epic Ring of Stalker)
    +1 from Rogue PL (Passive)
    +3.5 from Assassin-1
    --------
    40.5 - Standing SA Damage per weapon; active Rogue Past-Life adds +10, pushing the average over 50+ per weapon


    -----------------------------------------
    --------------- SUMMARY ---------------
    -----------------------------------------

    I’m still on my way to 20, and expect to LR when I get there, to clean things up. So...the build is still fluid. Any advice regarding stat/feat/skill build tweaks would be more than welcome.

    Thanks for reading,

    -pete

  2. #2
    Community Member AtomicMew's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    2,709

    Default

    Skimming through, it looks very solid. If I were forced to not dualbox a fighter life, I'd probably do something like this.

    I would suggest one change: make it a horc. I'm pretty sure a horc would get just as much burst DPS as human and far more long term DPS. You'd only have access to damage boost III (through rogue), but you'd have more base damage and quite a bit more action boosts.

  3. #3
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    1,427

    Default

    you missed greater weapon focus, which is a pre-req for greater weapon specialization.

  4. #4
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    99

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by shadereaper33 View Post
    you missed greater weapon focus, which is a pre-req for greater weapon specialization.
    GWF isn't required for GWS

    http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Feat:...ashing_Weapons

    I have a 12fighter/6paladin/2rogue what doesn't carry GWF

  5. #5
    Community Member xoowak's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    487

    Default

    I've had a build extremely similar to this for a long time; it might be my favorite melee build.

    Differences:
    -For a 32pt I went 16/15/16/12/8/8
    -I found Stunning Blow to be meh. If you have Air khopeshes your experience may differ.
    -I couldn't fit Assassin I, the build is pretty tight on AP
    -No Hamstring or PL:Rogue, I have Quick Draw and SF:UMD instead


    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    I would suggest one change: make it a horc. I'm pretty sure a horc would get just as much burst DPS as human and far more long term DPS. You'd only have access to damage boost III (through rogue), but you'd have more base damage and quite a bit more action boosts.
    I think the loss of skill points would hurt if the goal is to be epic trap-capable.

    Quote Originally Posted by shadereaper33 View Post
    you missed greater weapon focus, which is a pre-req for greater weapon specialization.
    You'd think so, but it's actually not.

  6. #6
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    99

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    I would suggest one change: make it a horc. I'm pretty sure a horc would get just as much burst DPS as human and far more long term DPS. You'd only have access to damage boost III (through rogue), but you'd have more base damage and quite a bit more action boosts.
    I thought of that...but the human damage boost (%25) can be activated at the same time as fighter attack-speed boost (%40), and went with that.

    I do plan to have 10 action boosts, at level 18
    5 standard
    2 kensi
    1 fighter enhancement
    2 ToD necklace

    Thanks for the feedback

  7. #7
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    380

    Default

    I would consider dumping Assassin I entirely. I did a bit of math on my own DPS build (9 monk/11 rogue) and found that there was many other, better ways to spend the 11 AP that Assassin 1 costs (4 AP for skills, 3 AP for damage boosts and 4 AP for the PrE itself) for a meager 1d6 sneak attack damage (since the poisons kinda suck, only Assassin II and III get useful abilities besides SA).

  8. #8
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    99

    Default

    Hmm...good points Clay. 11 points is rather expensive, and I'm not really planning on using stealth much, other than rare questing situations...

    Thanks, I'll think on that

  9. #9
    Community Member AtomicMew's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    2,709

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by peterfrosty42 View Post
    I thought of that...but the human damage boost (%25) can be activated at the same time as fighter attack-speed boost (%40), and went with that.

    I do plan to have 10 action boosts, at level 18
    5 standard
    2 kensi
    1 fighter enhancement
    2 ToD necklace

    Thanks for the feedback
    Thats a good point, I forgot you cant activate class boosts at the same time.

  10. #10
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    99

    Default

    Upon reading my comment a second time, I see I made a typo -

    The fighter's attack speed boost is %30, not %40 as I state above

  11. #11
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    99

    Default

    So, I think I've convinced myself Assassin-1 simply isn't worth the 11 Action Points, considering all the things I'd like more AP for. I'm now wondering if Mechanic-1 is worth the 12 APs.

    I erroneously figured that...since enhancements are easily reset-able, I'd figure them out later. I'm now realizing how AP tight this build will be...!

  12. #12
    Community Member Blank_Zero's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    GMT -7, USA
    Posts
    3,830

    Default

    Edit: Ninja'd.


    OP, have you thought about the benefits of 1 monk vs. 1 Barb?

    Another Edit: I was really hoping there would be a Final Fantasy reference made somewhere... >.>
    Last edited by Blank_Zero; 02-15-2012 at 01:43 AM.
    Smrti///Warcrye///Dukkha///Nomey///Dhaarmika///Smrtiheals
    Focused Melee Discussion as of U17
    Proud Gimp of Crimson Eagles and now Loreseekers!

  13. #13
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    99

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Blank_Zero View Post
    OP, have you thought about the benefits of 1 monk vs. 1 Barb?
    Honestly, it was the movement speed that sold me to Barb; the +%10 inherent increase and 10 charges of +%35 burst speed were just too juicy to skip

    The +1 PA and rage were just gravy

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload