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  1. #1
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    Default Difference Between Strength and Dex Base?

    Alright, so I've sorta been off and on DDO for over several years, so I'm simultaneously behind the times and unknowing of the times. I've (recently) come back again to play with some friends of mine, and rogue is still my favorite class, so I rolled up a halfling dex rogue (intending to go pure assassin). And, while I love dexterity in all its forms (my second favorite stat after intelligence), and very strongly cling to the concept of the sneaky, dextrous backstabber... How much of a difference DOES focusing on strength give?

    My best guess is the difference comes from Khopesh's higher crit mod, as there are now at least a few weapons that deal damage based off of dexterity rather than strength now (Epic Midnight's Greeting and Treason, I believe?), besides which I doubt the extra damage of strength really makes a difference compared to the 17d6+stuff sneak attack.

    But of course I might be mistaken, so feel free to enlighten me if I am.

  2. #2
    Community Member Bacab's Avatar
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    For pure DPS and DPS only...STR>DEX.

    Main reason is there are a TON of STR buffs in the game. Also if you run into monsters with Fortification...you will be denied SA damage a bit. That is where the STR build pulls further ahead.

    For survivability though...a nice complete build (good STR and good DEX) is nice.

    BTW...in case you did not know...you minimum CON should be a 14. Please take Toughness also. HP's can a huge problem for a ROG, especially a pure ROG.
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    I'm well ahead on the toughness. This current rogue's build is (off the top of my head) Str 12, Dex 18 (Leveling it), Con 14, Int 16, Wis 8, Cha 8, with skills in Bluff, Diplomacy, Jump, Tumble, Disable Device, Open Lock, Search, Spot, Use Magic Device, Hide, and Move Silently. Currently level 7, with feats Toughness (and both halfling enhancements for it), Weapon Finesse, and TWF. Thinking of buying a +2 Int tome before leveling to start working on balance. My only regret is needing a better false life item, but right now he's at about 90 HP, with pretty decent AC from small size, a stability outfit, scorched bracers and all that dex.

    So, the main problem is with fortication, but that would also deny the higher crit damage of the Khopesh, right? And again, there are dex to damage items out there, so that should even up the difference while also giving higher AC, reflex, and skill mods for sneaking (and higher DC for Assassinate too, since it looks like most of the strength builds dump intelligence... One of the reasons I've been avoiding them).

    Sorry if this is coming off as noobish, I'm probably dealing with only a partially complete picture of the game. But my several year stint on WoW makes me paranoid about optimizing for end game, even though I've yet to ever reach it. xD

  4. #4
    Community Member Bacab's Avatar
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    Well one thing...AC does not really matter after level 11ish. At that point, you will need an AC in the 50's for Gianthold...and in the 60's for after that...and then oddly enough...in Amrath...it does not matter because monsters get glancing blows.

    Dex builds are fine in general, just not the best damage. Sadly enough, DPS is king at end game.

    Also all those skills (and high INT) are kinda a waste later on. I wish I could say otherwise, because it sounds like you and I have the same idea for a ROG in PnP DnD. But in DDO...a Wizard a Bard or Ranger with one level of ROG can get all the traps/locks and UMD...

    Your build will be fine and fun, and play it the way you see fit. Hope this helps.
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    I guess at the very least, it'll get me to level 20, and if need be I can reincarnate to swap things around (I THINK you can reincarnate ability scores... right?).

    And yes, I think we might. In Pen and Paper I have to fight myself not to put my highest ability score into intelligence, and even with an 18 it seems like I never have enough skill points...

  6. #6
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacab View Post
    Well one thing...AC does not really matter after level 11ish. At that point, you will need an AC in the 50's for Gianthold...and in the 60's for after that...and then oddly enough...in Amrath...it does not matter because monsters get glancing blows.

    Dex builds are fine in general, just not the best damage. Sadly enough, DPS is king at end game.

    Also all those skills (and high INT) are kinda a waste later on. I wish I could say otherwise, because it sounds like you and I have the same idea for a ROG in PnP DnD. But in DDO...a Wizard a Bard or Ranger with one level of ROG can get all the traps/locks and UMD...

    Your build will be fine and fun, and play it the way you see fit. Hope this helps.
    This is fine except for the int bit. High int at end game is very useful and arguably of as much use as strength.

    For me the choice for a pure rogue at the moment is whether to put level ups into strength or intelligence. With decent to exceptional gear and a solid starting strength AB isn't much of an issue and while the DPS of a strength build is valuable being able to instant kill 1-2 mobs every 15 seconds in elite and epic end game content is very useful.

    For a first life halfling it's perfectly viable to put level ups into int for the stat layout that you mentioned which will pay off from level 12 when you get assassinate. Just try to buff your AB as much as possible from other sources and get max dex enhancements. In the future you can do a TR to a halfelf with artificer dilettante when you have a solid amount of strength buffs.

    So yes, good news, the playstyle you want exists but just int based rather than strength or dexterity.

    Final thing, assassin is only good from level 12 and inwards. From level 6 to 11 you can spec as a mechanic to make use of the intelligence as an option.

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    I'm not entirely sure on playing a halfelf... I'm a bit biased towards halflings. :P

    So anyway, from what I've gathered, Strength is good, and Intelligence is good, and dex is 'meh'. Would it then be effective to have starting Intelligence of 16 (getting all the delicious skills I want), 15 Dex (with halfling racial, +2 tome later on for GTWF), then dump the rest of the points into strength and con and raise strength? This means I'll still be as good as handling traps as I am now (read, barely capable of finding the box in some elites with a +7 search goggles), would likely have round about the same AC with armor, but deal more damage with a khopesh? (Oh, I'll be a bit shorter on to-hit, I suppose.)

  8. #8
    Community Member Bacab's Avatar
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    Thats sounds pretty solid to me there.

    BTW, Wax is right, INT is good if you are building an assassin. Its rough until 12 (which he said).

    I have seen some people go STR based and then LR and swap stats later on. Not sure if that is the route for everyone though.
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    Alright. Is there any point in getting the dexterity enhancement then?

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    Community Member Bacab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amorenkaire View Post
    Alright. Is there any point in getting the dexterity enhancement then?
    That is kinda debatable.

    I kinda prefer on HALFLING especially the bonus Sneak Attack dmg enhancements. ROG are generally pretty tight on AP...so I would not take DEX enhancements unless you need to to qualify for something else.
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    Alright then. I think at most I may take a single point in one to pump dex up to 16 (and nab another point of AC/reflex), assuming there's nothing more worthwhile to take.

    Hmmm, so far this seems like it'd come to 14 Str, 15 Dex, 14 Con, 16 Int, and 8 wisdom and charisma with one point remaining on my 32 point build... I could throw it into dex to bring it up to 16, or put a point into wisdom. Unless you guys see a better way to arrange the stats.

  12. #12
    Community Member Bacab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amorenkaire View Post
    Alright then. I think at most I may take a single point in one to pump dex up to 16 (and nab another point of AC/reflex), assuming there's nothing more worthwhile to take.

    Hmmm, so far this seems like it'd come to 14 Str, 15 Dex, 14 Con, 16 Int, and 8 wisdom and charisma with one point remaining on my 32 point build... I could throw it into dex to bring it up to 16, or put a point into wisdom. Unless you guys see a better way to arrange the stats.
    I would put it into DEX prolly...1 for1 seems reasonable.
    But CHR may work so a +1 CHR tome gets you a bonus (helps with UMD)
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  13. #13
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    Depending on how well you can twink your DEX with gear waiting for you (good BTA or crafted stuff from other toons) you may be able to keep your DEX at a level consistently that you can't maintain STR. Rage pots are easy, but it took me a while to get some Madstones on my Rogue and I still don't have all the exceptional-stat gear I'd like. I'm going to wait and TR her after U13 drops so I can keep my tomes, and though she may have an interim life she'll end up as an INT-based rogue. Even with about a DC40 assasinate, it's hella fun in epics. I really want to play around at the 46+ mark a bit.

    You may not notice a difference on a first life getting to 20 except in a few places.

    Soloing is definitely easier STR based for the quests where you are fighting a big self healer ... I was unable to solo Running with the Devils on my finesse rogue with the gear I had at the time; maybe now with improved deception on treason/ring of lies and DEX to damage on Treason it could be doable - in theory you could get those earlier - but without the sneak damage, the self-healing red names are harsh if you lack STR.
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  14. #14
    Community Member TheDearLeader's Avatar
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    ----------Strength Based:-----------------------------------------Dexterity Based-------



    Questions?

    (just kidding, guys.)

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    The above reason is why I'm glad I invested in bluff, this time. I've managed to hit a few things on elite with it, and when it works it's awesome. I also imagine getting a weapon that gets dex to damage would also help; although I think Treason is the lowest level one (or at least, one I found). Can you craft the dex to damage property into weapons?

    Still, the friends I'm running with are starting over (again), because one of them decided to go from wizard to artificer... So I'll probably be experimenting between a dorf barbarian and this experimental rogue build to see how it goes... Especially since my Strength will be 4 points lower than my dexterity at start, and ~10 points lower at 20...

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amorenkaire View Post
    The above reason is why I'm glad I invested in bluff, this time.
    On a more serious note:

    A secondary usage of Bluff is the "Bluff Pull", where you can use your Bluff Skill to bring a Boss, or single mob, away from a larger group of mobs, even rooms away. This way you can fight them individually, and therefore spare your party the trouble of perhaps biting off more they can chew. To use this one, I find it's best to be invisible (Via clickie, pot, scroll, or friendly arcane), and in sneak mode. Many mobs will throw a dagger or something at you when you do this, breaking you from stealth, and having the invis as a backup normally means you don't accidentally become visible is a room full of enemies.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacab View Post
    Well one thing...AC does not really matter after level 11ish. At that point, you will need an AC in the 50's for Gianthold...and in the 60's for after that...and then oddly enough...in Amrath...it does not matter because monsters get glancing blows.

    .
    Um I find my AC on my ranger to be very useful in amarath even in soloing some elite amrath quests.

    Ok maybe it might not be something someone making a new rogue should aim for but I have to disagree with that general statement that AC in amarath doesnt matter, it seems to make a big difference even with a hard suulo or even horoth beating on you.

  18. #18
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    As an end-game perspective, Str offers more damage, and eventually better to-hit numbers.

    However, if you don't want to (or can't) keep up with every buff all the time, you are going to be able to achieve a similar standing to-hit as a Str-based rogue. And to-hit is actually something every rogue needs to work on. It largely depends on the quests you run, and with whom you run them. Achieving better to-hit for a limited amount of time (Madstone boots are approx. 2 mins per clickie; Titan's Gloves are a total of 3 minutes) while having more damage is the way to go to excel in short boss fights.

    However, if the shrine density is a bit sparse, or the fight with the boss is longer than 5 minutes, these Strength-boosts may lose steam, and the rogue might find herself with having to switch off Power Attack, and eventually missing on a 2, or even more.

    I say that out of experience while playing a Str-based rogue. Maybe I am doing it wrong, but especially on a Halfling, the to-hit bonus of Dex-based is more accessible. It's all about how much dedication you want to put into getting the items which help you most. voodoogroves has some points, too.
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  19. #19
    Community Member Bacab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    Um I find my AC on my ranger to be very useful in amarath even in soloing some elite amrath quests.

    Ok maybe it might not be something someone making a new rogue should aim for but I have to disagree with that general statement that AC in amarath doesnt matter, it seems to make a big difference even with a hard suulo or even horoth beating on you.
    Oh, I meant on a Pure ROG it was really really really tough to get it high enough.

    It can be done...I just think on a first life...it is next to impossible. I have played with high AC toons and the glancing blows thing (I kinda disagree with its addition to the game) seems to tick them off.

    I remember my first "High Level Toon" which was a Dwarven Cleric that used FP and a Large Shield. I thought my AC of 30+ was amazing and unhittable (I was the LORD of Tempest Spine!). Then Gianthold came out...and all of a sudden...I was getting smashed. I then felt like my AC was worthless.

    I then did the smart thing...I rolled a 6 CON Drow Sorc and really showed them that AC didn't matter! To this day I hate drow (I am in denial of sorts lol). BTW on that Drow Sorc...I maxed CHR (obviously) and DEX for...my Ray Spells...

    In my defense...this was late in 2006 and Drow were brand new at this time.

    Oh yeah to the OP...if you splash MONK you might be able to hit some really nice AC...but AC almost has to be the focus of your build at that point. You said you wanted to stay pure, so I kinda thought your AC would end up in the low 30's.
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  20. #20
    Community Member TheDearLeader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    Um I find my AC on my ranger to be very useful in amarath even in soloing some elite amrath quests.

    Ok maybe it might not be something someone making a new rogue should aim for but I have to disagree with that general statement that AC in amarath doesnt matter, it seems to make a big difference even with a hard suulo or even horoth beating on you.
    Tempest AC > Assassin AC

    Are you in the wrong thread?

    (Not to say that I haven't seen Rogues get some amazing AC numbers. But Rangers, esp. Tempests, are more "made" for combat-effective AC. Comparatively.)

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