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  1. #1
    Developer MadFloyd's Avatar
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    Default LET'S TALK: Lamannia

    Some of you already know this, but for those who don't, I wanted to get the word out.

    Lamannia used to be known as a 'preview' server - a chance for players see what changes were going to occur on the live servers, for the devs to gauge initial reactions and to find out if there were any show stopping bugs (crashes, etc). It was also used to gather info for the first patch.

    Over the past few updates we have been releasing to Lamannia earlier in hopes that we can get more feedback and effect changes before the update goes live. Overall it has helped and we're going farther in that direction this year. Update 13 is on Lamannia very early (so early in fact that I don't think we're even announcing the release date until this upcoming week).

    For this to happen, us developers have had to change the way we work. We need to get more 'core' work done earlier. This means you will see less 'polish' and many more bugs, mishaps, mistakes, etc. This is both good and bad.

    The immediate reaction to any sort of change that affects character builds is typically very emotional. This is totally understandable, especially given past history on Lamannia has been 'what you see is what you get'. What I want to point out here is that while a change on Lamannia that you find undesirable should definitely be highlighted and discussed, you shouldn't jump to conclusions that it is going to go live.

    There's no doubt in my mind that in order for us to make DDO the best it can be, we need your feedback. The days of a few clever designers making decisions in a vacuum are in the past. We now have tripled the size of the team in the hopes of not only delivering bigger and greater new stuff, but fixing more existing issues, whether it be class balance, broken AC, or items not working as described. It also means we have more devs reading feedback and participaing in design decisions - a good thing imo.

    The scary thing about all of this (as far as us devs are concerned) is that you will see more work-in-progress and broken things. The latter both because versions are going to Lamannia before QA gets to bang on it and because we have new devs that are undoubtedly going to make mistakes.

    Please keep all of this in mind.

    We've also opened up a bug forum on Lamannia. This is because we continuously see posts to the effect "this was reported on Lam and it STILL went live". Having a bug mentioned somewhere in a thread is dicey. Hopefully the separate forum will help.

    And about nerfs: We've done this too casually in the past, I know. It would be my preference to avoid these like the plague, but sometimes it is truly warranted. In those cases, it is my intention to use these 'Let's Talk' threads to discuss these changes in advance - or at least as they hit Lamannia - so that we can ensure we have time to discuss and make the right decision. Obviously the paramount goal is to make our player base happy with the game (without this there's not much reason for DDO to exist), but ultimately that means fair and balanced. If you see a nerf that wasn't accompanied by a discussion thread, please point it out.

    Again, we're going to make mistakes. Do call us out on them, but please don't jump to conclusions that everything is intentional or done with malice.

    Thanks for reading.
    MF
    The kobold cannot be marked as junk because it cannot be sold. You can destroy it by dragging and dropping it outside your inventory.

  2. #2
    2014 DDO Players Council
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    MeliCat's Avatar
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    Wow. Um, thank you MadFloyd. It's fantastic to have such transparency to the process and be allowed to genuinely give feedback instead of what's-the-point-of-saying-this-as-it's-going-to-happen-anyway feedback.

    Warnings re nerfing (particularly with things like Madstone boots in mind) are noted. You know damn well that we're going to let you know.
    ~Thelanis ~ Khyber ~

  3. #3
    Community Member AMDarkwolf's Avatar
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    would like to suggest taht maybe, all of you guys, NOT just the new guys, make it your 'JOB' to play 2-3 hrs every couple days on the LIVE servers, with REAL toons. Even if we do not know who you are, I think being 'one of the players' and actually PLAYING the game would give u FAR MORE insight and understanding of the game than looking at code and slapping on some new 'spiffy' changes.

    I applaud the fact that you are now using lam as more of a test server and less of a polish it but thats what you get thing. But I truly think all of you guys need to PLAY the game, not with decked out toons, not with 'special rules' but as real players. Learn to like it and learn why we like it, what made us come and play, experience the hardships yourself, see what drop rates can be like, face the game as a melee, see what we see. I hope I'm explaining it well enough that you can see my point of view, as a player.

    Players who love and enjoy the game can be the most rabid pack of freaks, but they are also the ones with the most experience with the 'finished product' - as players yourselves (And i mean 'real' players not liek the above example with pre-set 20's) you would see why we flip out over some of the things you do.


    And please, PLEASE don't do, if u go with my suggestion, decide to all play fvs's and casters.

  4. #4
    Community Member Therrias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Again, we're going to make mistakes. Do call us out on them, but please don't jump to conclusions that everything is intentional or done with malice.
    How many of your changes are unintentional?

  5. #5
    Community Member Gadget2775's Avatar
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    Lama is dead! All Hail Lama!!!!

    And you guys rock!
    D.W.A.T: (Now with Non-Dwarf support)
    Founder of the (D.W.A.T) Elf Rebellion and Supporter of the H (alfling). I(ntel). T(eam).

  6. #6
    The Hatchery
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    Well said. This change in lama usage will take a little time to really sink in, but it's a great step I think.
    It's definitely an N-word.

  7. #7
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    Redacted
    Last edited by fuzzy1guy; 01-29-2012 at 10:09 PM.

  8. #8
    Community Member Meat-Head's Avatar
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    Thumbs up This.

    KASHIL -- KASHILAH -- MATTAH -- MAHGANE -- KHYBER -- ANNIHILATION
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkrok View Post
    First, Meat-Head is exactly correct...

  9. #9
    Community Member bhgiant's Avatar
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    Holy ****... their team is 3x bigger now?? Trying to think about that from a business standpoint is making my head hurt, in a good way. They must be doing really well.

    On topic, yay. Good change, good talk. /plays
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    We are not working with the aliens to send messages that are picked up by your microwaved meatloaf dinner. At least I don't think so...
    Proud member of Tyrs Paladium

  10. #10

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    Nods solemly and tries to look wise...

  11. #11
    Developer MadFloyd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AMDarkwolf View Post
    would like to suggest taht maybe, all of you guys, NOT just the new guys, make it your 'JOB' to play 2-3 hrs every couple days on the LIVE servers, with REAL toons. Even if we do not know who you are, I think being 'one of the players' and actually PLAYING the game would give u FAR MORE insight and understanding of the game than looking at code and slapping on some new 'spiffy' changes.

    I applaud the fact that you are now using lam as more of a test server and less of a polish it but thats what you get thing. But I truly think all of you guys need to PLAY the game, not with decked out toons, not with 'special rules' but as real players. Learn to like it and learn why we like it, what made us come and play, experience the hardships yourself, see what drop rates can be like, face the game as a melee, see what we see. I hope I'm explaining it well enough that you can see my point of view, as a player.

    Players who love and enjoy the game can be the most rabid pack of freaks, but they are also the ones with the most experience with the 'finished product' - as players yourselves (And i mean 'real' players not liek the above example with pre-set 20's) you would see why we flip out over some of the things you do.


    And please, PLEASE don't do, if u go with my suggestion, decide to all play fvs's and casters.
    We do play regularly - at least most of us. None of us have admin privileges, meaning we play by the same rules you do. The one difference is that we don't pay for TP.

    Not all of us have capped characters, but a good number of us do and offhand I know of 4 devs who have TR'd and at least one who has high level characters of every class.
    The kobold cannot be marked as junk because it cannot be sold. You can destroy it by dragging and dropping it outside your inventory.

  12. #12
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Awesome!
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

  13. #13
    The Hatchery zwiebelring's Avatar
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    Which servers have the highest chance on the dev random pug encounter?
    Characters on Orien:
    Wanzer/ Klingtanz/ Incanta Superior/ Mercantus

  14. #14
    Developer MadFloyd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therrias View Post
    How many of your changes are unintentional?
    Depends on how you look at it.

    Take madstone boots for example. That began life as a request from Shade who complained, when playing Crystal Cove, that he couldn't use torches & teleporters. Behind the scenes, these two mechanics were really spellcasting. I filed a bug to make madstone boots work in this situation. Did I intend or expect the item to be changed in the way it was? No. Heck, the designer who made the change didn't exactly anticipate the results.

    Sometimes a change is intentional on the part of the person who made the change, but not the team/management as a whole. Again, having stuff go out earlier to Lamannia means more stuff will show up there before it's formally reviewed.
    The kobold cannot be marked as junk because it cannot be sold. You can destroy it by dragging and dropping it outside your inventory.

  15. #15
    Developer MadFloyd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zwiebelring View Post
    Which servers have the highest chance on the dev random pug encounter?
    Not going to go there. :-)
    The kobold cannot be marked as junk because it cannot be sold. You can destroy it by dragging and dropping it outside your inventory.

  16. #16
    The Hatchery zwiebelring's Avatar
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    In case of Madstone Boots it is more than trivial just to put in another item instead of them or live the tradeoff.
    Characters on Orien:
    Wanzer/ Klingtanz/ Incanta Superior/ Mercantus

  17. #17
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    If this thread isn't stickied please do, for a while at least, for the original post.
    Matt Walsh:
    But Truth is eternal, so it can never be old or new. It never ‘was’ or ‘will be.’ It just ‘is.’ It always ‘is.’

  18. #18
    The Hatchery Rinnaldo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    The scary thing about all of this (as far as us devs are concerned) is that you will see more work-in-progress and broken things.
    ...
    Again, we're going to make mistakes. Do call us out on them, but please don't jump to conclusions that everything is intentional or done with malice.
    In light of this, is there any way that in the Lamannia release notes you could put in a section called "Work in Progress" so we know what is and is not intended as finished? So, for example, if you wanted to gauge reaction to Madstone boots, but knew that they were not in a final form, put that in the Work in Progress section. Whereas, if a quest or new zone is added and meant to be vetted, but is done as far as you're concerned, it wouldn't go in that section.

    I'd imagine this would cut down on redundant questions in the Bug Forum asking whether this our that (for example, level 7 vet status) is bugged or just not finished.

    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Did I intend or expect the item to be changed in the way it was? No. Heck, the designer who made the change didn't exactly anticipate the results.

    Sometimes a change is intentional on the part of the person who made the change, but not the team/management as a whole. Again, having stuff go out earlier to Lamannia means more stuff will show up there before it's formally reviewed.
    I wouldn't mind if you moved stuff to Work in Progress, after discovering the need for them to be fiddled with more.
    Last edited by Rinnaldo; 01-28-2012 at 12:31 PM.

  19. #19
    Community Member Ganolyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Not going to go there. :-)

    Well that's too bad. I think one of you should hook up with a premiere raiding guild all decked out in their epic finery, go into Abbot, hit God Mode, one shot the Abbot then type in party chat:

    "You all suxors! GIMPS!"

    And log out. I'd pay good money to see that video.
    Anál nathrach
    orth’ bháis’s bethad
    do chél dénmha

  20. #20
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Depends on how you look at it.

    Take madstone boots for example. That began life as a request from Shade who complained, when playing Crystal Cove, that he couldn't use torches & teleporters. Behind the scenes, these two mechanics were really spellcasting. I filed a bug to make madstone boots work in this situation. Did I intend or expect the item to be changed in the way it was? No. Heck, the designer who made the change didn't exactly anticipate the results.
    Is there any way to create greater differentiation between effects? Currently we have all fo the following labeled as "spellcasting":

    • quaffing potions that have a "funnel" (ie non-guild Remove Curse, Lesser Restoration, etc...)
    • activating clickies on items
    • placing challenge items (torches, teleporters, etc...)
    • casting spells
    • using wands
    • using scrolls
    • most light monk finishing moves and the triple fire finisher

    I'm sure I left some out. That doesn't look like a problem to you? Can you change the way drinking pots (or using them on others) and, at the very least, using challenge items are labeled or whatever, so they don't fall under the same heading as "spell casting"?


    I'd prefer for monk finishers and using clickies to get removed from that list as well. The only effects that having clickies count as casting have are that characters with Madstone Boots often can't use other items, and that people with Madstones, the ability to Rage or Hezrou cookies have to juggle all of their activations to get them in the correct order or one thing locks out the next.



    For example, if you rage before activating Madstone Boots, you can't use the clicky.
    If you eat a Hezrou cookie before using Madstone Boots, you can't use the clicky.

    If you activate Madstone Boots, rage or eat a cookie before using a Rage clicky, you don't get to use the clicky.


    So, you have to Rage clicky, Madstone clicky, Rage/Hezrou cookie.
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

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