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  1. #1
    Developer MadFloyd's Avatar
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    Default FEEDBACK: Armor Class Part 1

    I'm not calling this a Let's Talk thread because I have no intention of responding. I plan to lurk.

    Here's what I'm after:

    1) Is there something wrong with AC as currently implemented?
    2) If you answered yes to #1, what do you think is the problem?
    3) If you answered yes to #1, what end result would you hope for from a change?

    Now here's the tricky part:
    Refrain from suggesting a solution.

    In this thread I'm not interested in solutions - only because it will make parsing people's perceptions of the problems that much more difficult.

    This thread will be closed as soon as it serves its purpose.

    Thanks in advance for your participation.
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  2. #2
    Community Member bradleyforrest's Avatar
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    Yes. The problem is that AC is meaningless without a major investment of time to get it to a level where it is relevent. For a change, I would hope that it would be possible for mobs to miss 50% of the time do to AC with a moderate investment of time into gear.

  3. #3
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    1) Is there something wrong with AC as currently implemented?
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    2) If you answered yes to #1, what do you think is the problem?
    AC in epic quests is not useful because even the lowliest trash mobs have to-hit bonus that hits even the highest attainable AC on a roll of a 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    3) If you answered yes to #1, what end result would you hope for from a change?
    Ability to build an epic tank that can tank epic quests similar to how a non epic tank can tank non epic quests. Similar mitigation percentage wise and similar miss chance for similar DPS sacrifice percentage wise in building the toon.

    P.S. I feel AC works in the 1-20 game and is broken in epic quests. Some of the 1-20 game requires higher values to be effective but at least those values are attainable readily enough.
    Last edited by Chai; 04-19-2012 at 05:57 PM.

  4. #4
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Default AC works

    AC works imo as is, if you're a tank you have it if not you don't, it's something that needs to be built for and geared just like anything else.

  5. #5
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    1) Is there something wrong with AC as currently implemented?
    Yes

    2) If you answered yes to #1, what do you think is the problem?
    Yes. The problem is that AC is meaningless without a major investment of time to get it to a level where it is relevent.
    Best statement that summarises my opinion.

    3) If you answered yes to #1, what end result would you hope for from a change?
    AC means something from lvl 8-20 where at that point AC starts becoming meanless without grinding for super gear. AC should be equivalent regardless of the type used (relatively speaking in terms of investment spent on build and gear) - heavy armour, light armour/robes (dex builds) etc.

  6. #6
    Community Member Combat_Wombat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    I'm not calling this a Let's Talk thread because I have no intention of responding. I plan to lurk.

    Here's what I'm after:

    1) Is there something wrong with AC as currently implemented?
    2) If you answered yes to #1, what do you think is the problem?
    3) If you answered yes to #1, what end result would you hope for from a change?

    Now here's the tricky part:
    Refrain from suggesting a solution.

    In this thread I'm not interested in solutions - only because it will make parsing people's perceptions of the problems that much more difficult.

    Edit2: Fix guild titles/ranks and turn them back on!

    This thread will be closed as soon as it serves its purpose.

    Thanks in advance for your participation.
    Monster to-hit goes way to high in high level content. That being said it is honestly to late to fix this now the entire game has been balanced against everyone dumping AC. If all of a sudden most players AC became relevant and were taking significantly reduced damage all content would become more trivial than it already is. The game would die because it would be incredibly boring.

    Somewhere I proposed a 1% stacking DR/- for like every 13 ac. This would make everyone's AC count for something but not require the entire game to be re-balanced around the change. ATM AC is all or nothing and isn't obtainable in useful amounts without sacrifice which is good but people with a little bit of AC could use some kind of benefit like this.

    Edit: Also a nerf to monk wis-to-ac is in order, monks and monk splashes have become defensive powerhouses when it should be left to heavy armor and shields.
    Last edited by Combat_Wombat; 04-19-2012 at 06:19 PM.
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  7. #7
    Community Member Sgt_Hart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    1) Is there something wrong with AC as currently implemented?
    2) If you answered yes to #1, what do you think is the problem?
    3) If you answered yes to #1, what end result would you hope for from a change?

    1. Yes
    2. It's an all-or-nothing, increasing as you get closer to end game.
    3. A worthwhile return on improving armor class without an exclusive priority on armor class. To whit: It needs to be a valid secondary objective that benefits.
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  8. #8
    Community Member jortann's Avatar
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    1) Is there something wrong with AC as currently implemented? Yes

    2) If you answered yes to #1, what do you think is the problem?

    The all or nothing approach of the system.

    The beleivability of the system. The ability to be missed by the enemy seems like it should be attached to feats (like Dodge) and maybe enhancements. When I think of armor I think of damage mitigation, not the ability to be missed by my opponent. For example, I don't think someone wearing Full Plate armor has a better chance of being missed than someone in Leather armor, but the Full Plate guy does have a better chance of absorbing some of the damage.

    3) If you answered yes to #1, what end result would you hope for from a change?
    something that makes sense?
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  9. #9
    Community Member Perikeles's Avatar
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    My favourite pet peeve about AC in ddo is that no matter how shiny how durable your armor is and has a decent ac rating. Somehow your plate armor makes enemies MISS you instead of protect you from incoming damage. It's kinda counter intuitive.. I mean Chainmails should protect you from arrows penetrating you even if they hit but instead all chainmail ac does does is make the arrows miss you totally.

    I think the concept of armor class should be discussed as in what it is supposed to represent. Clear definition might be very important to this thread.

  10. #10
    Community Member camgib's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    I'm not calling this a Let's Talk thread because I have no intention of responding. I plan to lurk.

    1) Is there something wrong with AC as currently implemented?
    2) If you answered yes to #1, what do you think is the problem?
    3) If you answered yes to #1, what end result would you hope for from a change?
    1. If you mean is the d20 system messed up, no, I don't think there is anything wrong with the way it WORKS. If you mean is it WAY to difficult for the appropriate classes, like stalwart defenders, to get meaningful AC, then yes, there is something wrong with the way AC is currently implemented when it is easier for monks to have 100+ AC than it is for a heavy-armor-wearing tank to achieve the same result.

    2. There are too few alternatives for gear that gives heavy armor characters the ability to build an armor class of 100+.

    3. The ability to build a high-AC character that wears heavy armor in more than one or two ways.


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  11. #11
    Community Member blkcat1028's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    I'm not calling this a Let's Talk thread because I have no intention of responding. I plan to lurk.

    Here's what I'm after:

    1) Is there something wrong with AC as currently implemented?

    Yes

    2) If you answered yes to #1, what do you think is the problem?

    Armour Class favours the pajama wearing masses. You are actually penalized for wearing heavier armour types.

    3) If you answered yes to #1, what end result would you hope for from a change?

    That there be benefit to wearing the various armour types, thus making more builds viable for tanking etc.

    Now here's the tricky part:
    Refrain from suggesting a solution.

    In this thread I'm not interested in solutions - only because it will make parsing people's perceptions of the problems that much more difficult.

    This thread will be closed as soon as it serves its purpose.

    Thanks in advance for your participation.
    Answers in red
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  12. #12

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    1) Is there something wrong with AC as currently implemented?

    Yes

    2) If you answered yes to #1, what do you think is the problem?

    Three things.

    First the range of ac values is too high for a d20 roll. Making a 50-60 ac as worthless as a 2 ac.

    Second AC is balanced around the upper tiers making it hard to reach the useable range and at very steep tradeoffs.

    Third Epic raid boss ac have unattainable Ac requirements.

    3) If you answered yes to #1, what end result would you hope for from a change?

    A wider range of useable ac values. Ability to get even moderately useful AC in all content without having to completely forgoe dealing dmg and then be able to ramp up your ac to better values with more tradeoff.
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  13. #13
    Founder THAC0's Avatar
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    1) Yes.

    2) From a WF perspective, there are not many selections for high AC Docets.... I can't think of any to be honest. (I think AC of 32 was my best at lvl 20...after that I stopped caring about AC so most are in the 20-28 range and I just ignore it.)

    3) While it is nice to see non-WF chars get to the AC 60+ range with a lot of effort... consider WFs and their needs too. And I'm not just talking about tank builds. Docets are all WF can wear (for people who don't know).

  14. #14
    The Hatchery BruceTheHoon's Avatar
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    1) Yes

    2) Even epic geared characters get hit by practically everything on epic difficulty. In addition, characters that may fare really well in non epic content, have a great aspect of their build nullified when entering epic quests. This remains so all the time while collecting the best possible gear.

    3) I would like to have reasonable damage mitigation with reasonable effort put into gearing characters. AC changes should be gradual but noticeable on every step.
    Gearing an AC character should be comparable to gearing a spell user or a melee damage dealer, where one can do more than acceptable contribution to the party, while having good gear. Not great, awesome or top notch, just good.

  15. #15

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    Yes, there is something wrong with the current AC system. At the heart of this issue is the effectiveness of AC at end game. When a PJ clad 20th level fighter is marginally better off than the same character in plate armor, there is definitely a problem. I would hope that any change would provide some correction to the scaling deficiency which begins to resemble a logarithmic curve in usefulness vs. attainability beyond AC 50.

  16. #16
    Community Member Vazok1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    1) Is there something wrong with AC as currently implemented?
    I like it personally as i am past the AC break point on my fav chars. however, Yes there is something wrong with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    2) If you answered yes to #1, what do you think is the problem?
    on a 1-100 scale, 70% of it will get hit ALL the time, 30% will get hit NONE of the time. its either on or its off. no inbetween
    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    3) If you answered yes to #1, what end result would you hope for from a change?
    first there to be a white area of ac, lets say 1-60 that gets hit 95% of the time and there to be a grey area, say 61-99 that gradually gets you hit less and less the higher you go into that scale, and there to be a black area 100+ that gets you hit 5% of the time. obviously with different numbers and a different grey area but I have no idea what AC we'll be able to attain after enhancement update or destinies release. hint hint
    secondly, ac to work in ALL content, if I decide to make a 6str dex build wtih uber high ac I shouldnt be hit 95% of the time by an epic minotaur runt.

    also seeing someone elses post saying the pajama wearers get high ac. AC is supposed to be how difficult your character is to hit, if your dodging around something avoiding all blows you'd want to be in light or no armor. to me that makes sence. however i also accept that heavy armor should offer more benefits towards tanking
    Last edited by Vazok1; 04-19-2012 at 06:19 PM.
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  17. #17
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    I find it works conditionally. It works up till about level 10 or 12 depending, but after that, forget it.

    Even during my days of being a power gamer, I didn't care because I absolutely hated the grind necessary. You just about have to have an elitest attitude and 40 hr a week work ethic for the game to have relevant AC. I refuse to treat this GAME as WORK these days. I want it to be fun.

    In PnP displacement and blur were a commodity, but this game treats them as a necessity with all the buffed up beyond belief mobs we deal with. It is the only thing we have to keep the shots a bit more even it seems.

    And then you've got the AC of the mobs, on most you know? just fine don't have an issue, execpt... archers. The way those gun turrests are done up, they are worse than any of the melee "armored" out there. For instance your average skeletal archer has a higher AC than a blackbone warrior. ???? More HP also, let alone that bloody annoying jump that makes them unhitable. Seriously? They "tumble" to move and we can't hit them, but they can ALWAYS hit us?

    I like the rule of "if they can, we can" which I will fully admit, SHOULD come back to bite us in the rear at times.

    I know you said you didn't want solutions, but you did ask what result. To me a high AC and wearing cloth means you weren't there to be physically touched, other wise you were hit. But a high AC and heavy armor/shield/etc means maybe you weren't there to be touched, but more than likely you used gear to deflect/absorb the shot so you didn't take damage. (which realistically means the heavier armor gets damaged more.) And monks are a tricky sort given the mysticism of Ki/Qi.

    In other words, I want AC and armor type to mean something beyond metal type.

    I also want personal DR to mean more. WF can have it with adamantine body type, Monk lvl 20 get epic, Barbs get DR/-, fvs, etc. Why a monk can get equal to a barb just because of stance.... ggrrrrr, I have NEVER agreed with that. And the cost to raise these values are EXPENSIVE. But these DR values were fine in PnP but the mobs here aren't close to PnP, they are inflated. DR needs to mean more than the pittance that it does. A lvl 20 mob on normal does what? 30-50 points on a melee swing. That 3/- dr on adamantine full plate... yeah, why bother at all. But per swing it adds up! right? A character with 450 hp, against those mobs, assuming average 40 hits a swing, and lets give them adamantine full plate. Takes 12 swings to be killed. 11 without. yeah... big friggen deal. I expanded my life by 5 seconds.
    Last edited by Missing_Minds; 04-19-2012 at 06:25 PM.

  18. #18
    Community Member bbqzor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    1) Is there something wrong with AC as currently implemented?
    Indirectly, yes. AC as implemented is essentially a player statistic, as you (Turbine) could change the mob values at will. Maybe I'm reading too much into your choice of words, but really, AC as a statistic in terms of its value on gear, its calculation, feats/enhancements/etc which affect it... all of that is relatively self consistent and working fine for us as players. People who want to invest in AC can, people who choose not to have other options available, and thats good for the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    2) If you answered yes to #1, what do you think is the problem?
    The problem is generally on the mob side, which indirectly impacts AC. Their attack values do not scale well at the upper end, and certainly not in proportion to player AC values. I suppose I would say, the problem with "AC as currently implemented" in the above question, is really a problem with "mob attack values as currently implemented".
    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    3) If you answered yes to #1, what end result would you hope for from a change?
    What I would hope for from a change (ie solution, not just a change for change's sake) is an end result where mob attack values are far more proportional to player AC values. This result would likely only be noticed at the upper tiers of the game, as the lower part tends to (more or less) already stay proportional. But a result where AC was as consistently relevant at 20, as it is at 5 or 10 or 15, would be the desired goal.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    1) Is there something wrong with AC as currently implemented?

    Yes.

    2) If you answered yes to #1, what do you think is the problem?

    The math does not seem to support a worthwhile AC as you progress, especially for casual players. The result is that if you pursue AC, you must specifically pick a build style (e.g., Stalwart Defender) and/or be lucky and/or determined enough to pursue the few class of items that make a worthwhile AC.

    3) If you answered yes to #1, what end result would you hope for from a change?

    I would like to see a reasonably obtainable AC which incorporates all types of armor (I am looking at you medium), perhaps by taking into account AC factors from a helmet, greaves and glove types. I would also hope to see a much greater benefit to shield users - make the trade-off between 2wf dps and using a shield a legitimate choice.

    Perhaps it means making fortification work differently in conjunction with AC. Perhaps it means adding a 3rd element to the equation. I don't have the answer so I can't give one - but giving players many more choices to vary the type of of equipment they use is good for the game, imo.
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  20. #20
    Community Member Jaid314's Avatar
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    1) yes

    2) mostly epics. AC is not useful in epic fights, except for completely ridiculous extreme examples, which even then only work on trash which is much more easily dealt with in numerous other ways such as instakill and CC (there is iirc video of someone who had enough AC to get missed reasonably often in one of the epic house D quests. it was something like 105 AC). in traditional content, it's mostly fine (if you truly invest in AC, you will get some protection against some mobs, at least. even with very minimal effort, it's possibly to get some protection in the later levels, though not necessarily for elite amrath, which is fine imo).

    3) the possibility for builds that put in the effort to get significant AC to benefit from that AC against at least some mobs, some of the time. this does not mean that i expect to see epic velah reduced to getting glancing blows on a 19, but it would be nice if, say, epic tieflings in eChrono would miss more than 5% of the time vs someone who has invested heavily in AC (and it would be especially nice if the guy who brings a maxed AC tank to the end fight doesn't feel like he's wasted a lot of time farming rare gear that simply doesn't meaningfully help him at all in those fights)

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