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  1. #1
    Community Member hockeyrama's Avatar
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    Default why all the rogue hate- not just rogues have low hps

    There is a thread about a level 17 rogue with 122 hps yet I was in a quest with a level 18 5 time tr cleric that had 128hps. He said he does not need fort or hps as he stays out of the melee and is an excellent healer. I mentioned the fact that it hard to heal if you dead.

    The truth is people need to understand that you should start with 14 con on any character (even a drow). You need to take toughness (except maybe on a character with really high hps like a barb where it may not be necessary but even then I say take it). You should get a +6 con item and a greater fase life item as soon as possible and by level 15 there are many availavle on AH. Of course there is more things then that like minos but then to get minos and gs hp item you need packs so it not mandatory. But +6 con, greater false life are necesssary.

    So lets look at numbers.
    starting con 14 +6 con item gives 20 con. So at level 18 you would get 90 from that. Greater false life gives 30 more. 20 more from toughness feat 3+17. wizard gets the lowest hitpoints so d4 per level so 72. THen action points on race toughness 20hps. So even a level 18 wizard should have at lest 232hps and all characters should have that much at least.

    Add in toughness on a minos 20, 45 grom a gs, 20 more on a guild slot item and 317 is fairly easy to achieve. But at 18 you have no excuse to have at least 200 and heavy fort and should have more no matter what class.

  2. #2
    Founder adamkatt's Avatar
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    thats not rogue hate, its just a bad build.
    Outatime Exodus
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  3. #3
    Community Member hockeyrama's Avatar
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    i know just it is pointed out soo fat on rogues yet i see alot of other builds with same issue and no comments made and they are all bad builds imho

  4. #4
    Community Member Zachski's Avatar
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    Rogues are a melee-base class with a low HD, they suffer from the inability to reach usable AC, like most classes that aren't Fighter or Paladin suffer from, and to top it all off, most new players rolling a Rogue don't understand how important HP actually is, so you have 8 CON or 10 CON Rogues running around.

    And due to how DDO works, they can even get to level 20. It's just that it's a half-existence, as they can't fight, so they end up skulking around and contributing as much as they can through dismantling traps (if nothing else, they tend to have reflex saves) and unlocking chests and doors.

    It's not Rogue hate. It's a reputation. Squishy mages also have a reputation, but they aren't as inclined to be in melee zone. So they're less noticeable.

    Now, the people who automatically reject a Rogue assuming that they're squishy... those people are as wrong as the people who think 8 constitution is a good idea because "You should never have aggro"
    Last edited by Zachski; 01-14-2012 at 12:27 PM.
    Once I get my moods under control, I might actually get a character past level 7... ooh, shiny!

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  5. #5
    Community Member Arnhelm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zachski View Post
    ...those people are as wrong as the people who think 8 constitution is a good idea because "You should never have aggro"
    Drat! Now I have to clean my screen again.
    There is no free lunch.

  6. #6
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    If I don't hate on Rouges, then I have to hate on Rangers or Arti$ or Palis... Wait, I hate them all.


    (Hopefully, I annoyed someone by saying rouge instead of rogue)

  7. #7
    Community Member ~Quilny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hockeyrama View Post
    There is a thread about a level 17 rogue with 122 hps yet I was in a quest with a level 18 5 time tr cleric that had 128hps. He said he does not need fort or hps as he stays out of the melee and is an excellent healer. I mentioned the fact that it hard to heal if you dead.
    I have a cleric healer with 2466sp and 507hp and 100% fort and deathblock this should be the standard well at least 2,000sp and 400hp 100% fort.

    If anyone cares he also has 19turn attempts .


    Anyways happy hunting and I agree with you you cant heal if you are dead seems like 90% of shrouds I run im only healer alive solo healing it.

  8. #8
    Community Member KillEveryone's Avatar
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    I don't hate rogues.

    I dislike squishy characters, including rogues if they are squishy, but this isn't due to the class but the player that thinks CON is a dump stat.
    Disappointed and without trust in the powers that be.
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  9. #9
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    The trick to playing a successful rogue is aggro management with a party and having decent gear. Radiance or deception can cause your dps to go up 100 hp per strike and drain strength.

    You may see a lot of people playing rogues as fighters with lockpicking abilities. Course you also see a lot of people who don't understand that Harry, Sully etc. have a 180 degree cleave swing and the best place for non-tanking dps is to be in the other 180 degrees. So rogues require a fair amount more finesse in understanding the system imo to really be effective.

  10. #10
    Community Member Dwarfo's Avatar
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    heres a very non squishy rogue that is an amazing fun to play build, suprised theres not more of these around.
    http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=305658
    Levistis, Orcys, and Thirzax of the Dragon Blood Cult of Maguuma, GW2.

  11. #11
    Community Member dkyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dwarfo View Post
    heres a very non squishy rogue that is an amazing fun to play build, suprised theres not more of these around.
    http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=305658
    Note the Paladin and Monk levels. Not really a typical Rogue.

  12. #12
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    This subject is an emotional one for me.

    If your Rogue is dying, you are doing it wrong!

    Rogue's should not have agro!

    I don't care if you are a 100 Str 10000 HP Rogue, if you have agro, you are losing a huge amount of DPS from lost SA damage.

    Possible exception of Radiance weps and reliable CC that grants SA damage, but in the case of CC you are still not getting beat up in return......so again.....
    Why is your Rogue dying?!


    HP are good.
    Thinking rogues will die just because they have low HP is bad. That is not the case.. (if they are played correctly)


    A similar situation is with low HP Wizards.
    Wizards should not be dying either! regardless of how many or few HP they have.

    You have access to every damage mitigating buff in the game.
    And CC spells that can stop an army in it's tracks.....
    (add Pale Masters or WF for self healing)

    Why are you dying again?!


    It's not the HP, it's the player.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  13. #13
    Community Member azrael4h's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by talon_moonshadow View Post
    it's not the hp, it's the player.
    qft! +1
    It was the night before Hogswatch....

    Optimus Prime/Grimlock 2016 Because in diplomacy, sending in the Dinobots is the only answer.

  14. #14
    Community Member dkyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post
    Rogue's should not have agro!
    You don't need to have aggro to take damage, and some aggro is random.

    You have access to every damage mitigating buff in the game.
    And CC spells that can stop an army in it's tracks.....
    (add Pale Masters or WF for self healing)

    Why are you dying again?!
    Even with self healing, you need enough HP to survive large amounts of burst damage, so you live long enough to hit "Reconstruct" or Necro Burst.

    It's not the HP, it's the player.
    Sure. But low HP is very often a sign of a player that doesn't know what they are doing.

  15. #15
    Community Member azrael4h's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkyle View Post
    Sure. But low HP is very often a sign of a player that doesn't know what they are doing.
    I don't even need a finger to count the number of Barbarian players I've pugged with that knew what they were doing. They had reasonably high hp, presuming newbie gear (400-500), though a large number have been TRed. By that logic therefore, Barbarian is a sign of a player that doesn't know what they're doing.
    It was the night before Hogswatch....

    Optimus Prime/Grimlock 2016 Because in diplomacy, sending in the Dinobots is the only answer.

  16. #16
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    But still 122HP is inexplicable.

    I have 30 toons (plus 4 mules) of almost all classes, levels and races and the only ones with less than 122HP are a lvl4 human sorc (86HP), lvl5 elf bard (102HP) and lvl6 elf wizard(106HP).

    I may think I'm an OK player but mistakes can happen and a few extra HPs do help one survive a stupid mistake or random event.

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by donblas View Post
    a few extra HPs do help one survive a stupid mistake or random event.
    This

    It is true that some toons can do quite well with low hp, but what I tell them is that the hp is buffer to mistakes and lag. I solo'd Elite Shrieking mines with my 11 cleric/1 Fighter and have 317 hp, and with less hp I would have died, not as much to the mobs but running through the sonic trap, sometimes I would mistime jumping through and a failed save did about 100 damage to me even with sonic resist up.

  18. #18
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    Hockey, if your server is Argo than I know the person you ran with and the guild he's the leader of. This guy's a total tool and has absolutely worthless builds all around, and any respectable guild/person knows it. Here him say he doesn't need fort/hp because he's an excellent healer, watch him go down in a single fireball, and know there's no way he's ever run an epic or even a high end raid for that matter. Laugh at him, then promptly boot him from the party or be prepared to lose 10% xp. Then squelch his entire guild.

  19. #19
    Community Member EatSmart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smatt View Post
    (Hopefully, I annoyed someone by saying rouge instead of rogue)
    I believe "rouge" has now become the accepted term for someone that spends most of their time as a ten foot smear on the floor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Torc View Post
    We like the fact it’s a choice as suppose to, “hell we just kill yonder dragon cause we’re OP”.
    Quote Originally Posted by Memnir View Post
    I say we take off and nerf the whole game from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

  20. #20
    Community Member dkyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azrael4h View Post
    I don't even need a finger to count the number of Barbarian players I've pugged with that knew what they were doing. They had reasonably high hp, presuming newbie gear (400-500), though a large number have been TRed. By that logic therefore, Barbarian is a sign of a player that doesn't know what they're doing.
    400-500 is very low on even a new Barbarian. I would be very concerned about such a Barb.

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