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  1. #41
    Community Member korsat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by keveniaftw View Post
    You're wrong... While your overall DPS in the right destiny may be higher, thanks to fury manyshot, and even shiradi manyshot or regular manyshot, your melee DPS won't be close to one of a pure monk. This has several reasons:
    Lack of attack speed vs wind stance IV
    Lack of base damage in: Monk 16, monk 20, feats (maybe), destiny/twists (to keep good ranged DPS)
    Even on favored enemies you won't get close enough. Without deadly weapons my monk has 10[W] base die, with deadly that becomes 11[W], the whole concept of the monkcher is you have nice burst DPS to surpass melee DPS, but you can't get your melee DPS equal to one of a monk...
    that post was a bit outdated, by the way I was comparing a pure monk using earth stance not wind. Everyone knows that wind has better dps but earth comes close due to the better crit multiplier, around 60-80 more hp and more PRR, in terms of survivability is for sure a better choice.

    Now comparing a pure monk with a moncher:
    -both can take gtwf line, power attack, ic:bludg, vorpal strikes, improved martial arts
    -pure monk has up to 10d6 base fists damage, my moncher has 7d6(i know both can be pushed a lil more), that is 3d6 or 10.5 difference in damage
    -moncher has rams might +3 damage/hit so the difference is 7.5
    -favored enemy damage is up to +9 damage

    So I would say, in most of the cases a pure monk has better melee dps but not vs favored enemies.
    On the other hand a pure monk has better TOD dc while a moncher has free haste boost from fighter and +1str avaiable.

    I would not say monchers are behind, but if they are they still close enough for melee to matters.
    I see that everyone around is dropping the gtwf line, stunning fists, vorpal strikes and improved martial arts to get cleave, gc and OC. Well in this case I can say yeah moncher are far behind a pure monk in melee! But since I hit for 120 on a stunned mob and crit for 400-500 with a 9%DS and touch of death I'll keep my moncher as it is : P
    Last edited by korsat; 04-04-2013 at 02:20 AM.

  2. #42
    Community Member korsat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by korsat View Post
    EPIC LEVELS:
    DPS feats: Improved Martial Arts, Vorpal Strikes.
    AC feats: Combat Expertise (instead of PA/precision at lvl18), Bulwark of Defence, Improved Martial Arts.

    Regarding EDs:
    I personally love Fury of the wild for the huge epic moment. Twists: Dance of flowers, Legendary tactics, Extra action boost/Rejuvenation Cocoon/Pin/Haste boost III (depending on situations).
    Of course going full ranged is better for solo - because of kiting - loosing some dps. Twists: Rejuvenation Cocoon/Pin/Otto's Whistler

    U17 setup: planned gears with pinion and antipode set (claw set, monk set and planar focus no more stacks so I get rid of claw for the purple dragon gauntless):
    -Epic Helm of frost (+7cha) (Y slot: old greater false life +30hp)
    -Epic Schorced bracers (G slot: heavy fortification)
    -Epic Corrosion boots (G slot: 14PRR, C slot: +7wisdom)
    -Spider-spun caparison (+3 insightful wis, thoughness, +6 saves, reinforced fists, +1ki on hit)
    -Planar focus of prowless (+3 insightful str)
    -Dream visor EE (+5+5 competence to hit/damage) (Y slot: deathblock or +2 insight dex) / swappable true seeing
    -Drow piwafwi cloak (+5/+8 s.a., invisibility guard) / GS concordant opposition (10hp/150sp +5 cha skills)
    -Gilvenor's neckle (+2 competence to hit, +10%bow speed)
    -Purple dragon gauntless (+30% healing amp, +7 strenght, +2insight con)
    -Epic spare hand(+5 combat mastery, staggering blow, riposte, +3competence umd, +3% ds) (G slot: +2 good luck, C slot: +7 constitution )
    -Ring1: Epic ring of the stalker(+6seeker, ghostly, manslayer, exceptional sneak attack +3/+5) (Y slot: +2 insightful cha,C slot: globe +1 exc on all stats)
    -Ring2: Gilvenor's ring(+6 dex,+1exc dex, slotted holy burst,+10%bow speed)
    -Weapons: Antipode (R slot: 1d10 elemental damage)/Pinion (R slot: good/1d10 elemental damage)

    Added: +5/+8 sneak attack damage, 14prr slotted, 15prr and +9+9 to hit/damage (planar set bonus+dream visor), +2 good luck, deathblock.

    UMD: 11ranks+9cha+5gs+4gh+3belt+5epic levels+2good luck=39 standing <-- no fail heal, raise and teleport scolls; Cove Epic spyglass T3(swappable)=42 . Up to 47 with human versatility IV.

    Stun DC: 10+12+18wis+10wraps+5belt+6legendary tactics= 61

    32 pb, with +4 tomes, using FoTW (LR needed to fix some stat with end game gears - 15dex+4tome is enough to qualify for IPS, so we can raise intelligence for skills or charisma for umd) - 34 and 36 pb can start with higher str(dps), con(hp), int(for skills and combat expertise if you want it) or cha(umd):

    STR 46 (+18) (14+4tome+7item+1exc+2rams+5primal scream+2ship+1fighter+3echrono+3insightful+2fury+2 yugo)
    DEX 28 (+9) (15+4tome+6item+1exc+2ship-2stance+2yugo)
    CON 38 (+14) (14+4tome+7item+1exc+2insightful+2ship+5primal scream+3stance)
    INT 15 (+2) (8+4tome(+2 at lvl 7)+1exc+2ship)
    WIS 46 (+18) (16+4tome+7item+2monk+1human adaptability+2ship+6lvlup+1exceptional+3insightful +2fury+2yugo)
    CHA 28 (+9) (10+4tome+7item+2insight+1exc+2ship+2yugo)
    Reporting here the new gear layout for U17, more sneak attack, full UMD without gear swap, increased DPS, PRR and more!

    Enjoy

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by korsat View Post
    that post was a bit outdated, by the way I was comparing a pure monk using earth stance not wind. Everyone knows that wind has better dps but earth comes close due to the better crit multiplier, around 60-80 more hp and more PRR, in terms of survivability is for sure a better choice.

    Now comparing a pure monk with a moncher:
    -both can take gtwf line, power attack, ic:bludg, vorpal strikes, improved martial arts
    -pure monk has up to 10d6 base fists damage, my moncher has 7d6(i know both can be pushed a lil more), that is 3d6 or 10.5 difference in damage
    -moncher has rams might +3 damage/hit so the difference is 7.5
    -favored enemy damage is up to +9 damage

    So I would say, in most of the cases a pure monk has better melee dps but not vs favored enemies.
    On the other hand a pure monk has better TOD dc while a moncher has free haste boost from fighter and +1str avaiable.

    I would not say monchers are behind, but if they are they still close enough for melee to matters.
    I see that everyone around is dropping the gtwf line, stunning fists, vorpal strikes and improved martial arts to get cleave, gc and OC. Well in this case I can say yeah moncher are far behind a pure monk in melee! But since I hit for 120 on a stunned mob and crit for 400-500 with a 9%DS and touch of death I'll keep my moncher as it is : P
    If you take everything you said you greatly drop in ranged DPS.
    My monk goes air stance mostly (except when PRR is rlly needed) because the DPS output will still be greater, that is more attack speed than the monkcher could get.
    On a stunned mob my monk hits for 150 damage. 30 damage a whack behind isn't minor IMO
    Ainevek: 9/6/2 FvS/ranger/paladin (life 2/?) Shinweng: 8/5/2 monk/wizard/paladin (life 4/3?Abaranda: 18/2 FvS/monk (life 7/?) Kevenia: 6 sorcerer (life 2/?)
    Two handed chruchers, Ghallanda

  4. #44
    Community Member korsat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by keveniaftw View Post
    If you take everything you said you greatly drop in ranged DPS.
    My monk goes air stance mostly (except when PRR is rlly needed) because the DPS output will still be greater, that is more attack speed than the monkcher could get.
    On a stunned mob my monk hits for 150 damage. 30 damage a whack behind isn't minor IMO
    Why drop in ranged dps? Just because I do not take OC? It's kinda meh... It's very good of course - something like 7%more dps - but I'm trading the 4 feats to get it for the full melee ability, +2 wisdom(I would otherwise spend 2 points in strenght to meet the OC prerequisites) and the possibility to stun.

    By the way, don't misunderstand me, I'm just saying that the melee part of the build is often underrated. It may be a personal preference but when 10k stars and ms are on cooldown I prefer to use melee to attack faster: 120 damage per hit on a stunned mob+sense weakness dices+tunnel vision+(6d6+13)sneak attack+touch of death+wraps bursts with 19-20/*3 critics, vorpals and 9%ds multiple time per second sounds better to me than 2-3 arrows per second(and hope in a crit), that results also in a faster furies regeneration.

    This is imo, some melee toons cannot get such high melee dps neither if they are full melee specced, so looks like a waste to renunce at the melee part for a +1 critical multiplier on 19-20 only
    Last edited by korsat; 04-07-2013 at 09:30 AM.
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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by korsat View Post
    Why drop in ranged dps? Just because I do not take OC? It's kinda meh... It's very good of course - something like 7%more dps - but I'm trading the 4 feats to get it for the full melee ability, +2 wisdom(I would otherwise spend 2 points in strenght to meet the OC prerequisites) and the possibility to stun.

    By the way, don't misunderstand me, I'm just saying that the melee part of the build is often underrated. It may be a personal preference but when 10k stars and ms are on cooldown I prefer to use melee to attack faster: 120 damage per hit on a stunned mob+sense weakness dices+tunnel vision+(6d6+13)sneak attack+touch of death+wraps bursts with 19-20/*3 critics, vorpals and 9%ds multiple time per second sounds better to me than 2-3 arrows per second(and hope in a crit), that results also in a faster furies regeneration.

    This is imo, some melee toons cannot get such high melee dps neither if they are full melee specced, so looks like a waste to renunce at the melee part for a +1 critical multiplier on 19-20 only
    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's melee DPS sucks or you didn't make a correct decision
    I say you can't compare it's sustainable DPS to full monk :-), and the closer you want to get the gap, the lower your burst DPS will be. That is all I'm saying.
    Ainevek: 9/6/2 FvS/ranger/paladin (life 2/?) Shinweng: 8/5/2 monk/wizard/paladin (life 4/3?Abaranda: 18/2 FvS/monk (life 7/?) Kevenia: 6 sorcerer (life 2/?)
    Two handed chruchers, Ghallanda

  6. #46
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    if I did 2 arti intead of fighter what level split shud I do, you lose 1 fighter str so if ur 34 pb just add 1 str?

  7. #47
    Community Member korsat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flute136 View Post
    if I did 2 arti intead of fighter what level split shud I do, you lose 1 fighter str so if ur 34 pb just add 1 str?
    exactly, start with 15 strenght. You need to take arti earlier if you want to have trap skills, I would say AMMARRRRRR then M to end. Or RMMRAARRRR and M to end.

    Remember you don't need to take mental thoughness if you have arti levels so you can swap it for power attack or precision at level 6 and then take what do you prefer between gtwf and ic:bludgeon at 18.

    Arti gives you UMD, renuncing at haste boost, +1bab and 1 more feat basically. Since with end game gear you can easy hit 38 UMD also without arti or rogue levels (see OP) reflect on your choice

    tc
    Avenlight - Human - 12Fvs/6Monk/2Pal/8Epic
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  8. #48
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    Default Gear

    OK this is what I have set up for gears. Let me know what you think.
    Antipode(Adamantine or +2 insight int or cha or devotion 114), Pinion(114 devotion)
    Helm of Frost(GFL)(+7cha)
    Boots of Corrosion(14prr, +7 int? why not lol)
    Sunsoul Outfit(with this gear set up the spiderspun is minimal difference watch)
    Sunsoul Belt(+7 con, insight +2 wis)
    Sunsoul Bracers(superior parrying(kept from convalescence), wis +7, insight +2 con)
    Planar Focus(+3 insight str)
    Dreamvisor(EH or EE)(insightful +2 cha)
    Envenomed Cloak(heavy fort)(con +7, resist +5)
    Shintao/gilvaners necklace
    PDK Gloves(Str +7,insight +2 con(already acquired but still), 30% amp)
    Stalker Ring(+2 int, +1 exc all stats)
    Shintao/Gilvaenor's ring(holy burst)(dex +6) With this set up you have +7 everything but dex(+6) and +3 ins str, +2 cha con int

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenmonkcherhelp View Post
    OK this is what I have set up for gears. Let me know what you think.
    Antipode(Adamantine or +2 insight int or cha or devotion 114), Pinion(114 devotion)
    Helm of Frost(GFL)(+7cha)
    Boots of Corrosion(14prr, +7 int? why not lol)
    Sunsoul Outfit(with this gear set up the spiderspun is minimal difference watch)
    Sunsoul Belt(+7 con, insight +2 wis)
    Sunsoul Bracers(superior parrying(kept from convalescence), wis +7, insight +2 con)
    Planar Focus(+3 insight str)
    Dreamvisor(EH or EE)(insightful +2 cha)
    Envenomed Cloak(heavy fort)(con +7, resist +5)
    Shintao/gilvaners necklace
    PDK Gloves(Str +7,insight +2 con(already acquired but still), 30% amp)
    Stalker Ring(+2 int, +1 exc all stats)
    Shintao/Gilvaenor's ring(holy burst)(dex +6) With this set up you have +7 everything but dex(+6) and +3 ins str, +2 cha con int
    can use backstabbers gloves instead of PDK for the sneak attack bonus and slot str +7 on them to keep +7 and then slot +2 insight str on stalker ring instead of +2 int. this is what I will do actually. I lose a lot of heal amp but you get more dps out of it.
    Last edited by Zenmonkcherhelp; 06-19-2013 at 11:38 AM.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by korsat View Post

    WIS 46 (+18) (16+4tome+7item+2monk+1human adaptability+2ship+6lvlup+1exceptional+3insightful +2fury+2yugo)
    where is insight +3 wis coming from? if that's a typo and is supposed to be +2 then wis is going to be 45 unless you only train 1 monk enhancement or start with 15 or 16 base wisdom..

  11. #51
    Community Member korsat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenmonkcherman View Post
    where is insight +3 wis coming from? if that's a typo and is supposed to be +2 then wis is going to be 45 unless you only train 1 monk enhancement or start with 15 or 16 base wisdom..
    when I updated OP i was using +7 wisdom slotted and +3 insight on spider robe. Now I've switched to +8 on spider and +2 insight slotted. why? because when I swap robes I don't have odd wisdom (still have +6 conc opp gs +2 insight slotted). Thanks anyways gonna modify it now.

    Regarding your equipment, I find it solid. The sun soul set +2+2 doesn't stack with planar focus +4+4 thou. So if you have the planar focus already you can get rid of sun soul for an epic spare hand e.g. for the +3 umd, +5 combat mastery (you want this if you use melee) and 2 free slots. I find sun soul set pretty good while gearing up but it's not the best you can get. By the way saves matter in EE so if you are not going to use sun soul I would find space for superior parring somewhere. Bracers still best place imo with 20% healing amp too (if you use pdk), you can find bracers with superior parring and 30% healing amp in ah and free the gloves slot for s.a. ones or whatever you need.

    Do you have 2 arti/rogue levels? If so it's ok, otherwise you can just avoid to slot intelligence and use slots for something else.

    hf
    Last edited by korsat; 06-19-2013 at 05:43 PM.
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  12. #52
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    Angry New enhancement overhaul

    After looking at it on lamannia for a while it seems we will lose a **** ton of feats. This is a bad thing. We're all doomed.

  13. #53

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    Gratz, mate - your build survived after u19 =)
    "I shall take your position into consideration. Well, it seems your terms are not acceptable." (c) Baal
    Argonnessen :: Marche Funebre (200) : Leningradets / Zapasnoy / Grimstave / Rockernaut / Dociznogoud / Feldshaman

  14. #54
    Community Member korsat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noble_pirate View Post
    Gratz, mate - your build survived after u19 =)
    Thanks lenin, best builds survive I still need to go deeper in the new enhancement sysem and try out the new stuff.

    Post is updated, switched from dark to light. Melee is much stronger than before with the 30% haste boost, +3 action boosts and +3 tactical dc, while ranged is more or less the same (furyshot still rocks). Selfheal ability is really better with close to 280 healing spellpower, light path and cocoon (can renunce at some spellpower to take 15 more prr but I don't see a huge difference between 50 and 65). Also have more sneak attack and longer ranged range with a nice +3 reflex from ninja spy. HPs are perfectly the same @800 at 25. Only thing lost is the old slaying arrows but we gained so many things that I'm not gonna crying on

    I will post the enhancement trees i'm using after some more testing!
    Avenlight - Human - 12Fvs/6Monk/2Pal/8Epic
    Avenlight - Human - 17Cleric/2Monk/1Fighter/8Epic
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  15. #55
    Community Member korsat's Avatar
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    Just updated the OP with a vid to show you the enhancement trees I'm testing trying now to fit in snip shot...

    Quote Originally Posted by korsat View Post
    ENHANCEMENTS
    You can check from this vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AExTkZxjn6g
    Followed by a fast dps test in gh to show the ranged/melee ability.
    EDIT: at the moment i'm renuncing at the +2 dc from kensei tree (just got +1, still overkilling >60 stun dc) to try Sniper Shot(+4 threat range, +2 critical multiplier on ranged) and a couple prerequisites: emphatic healing(2ap for a lesser vigor effect)+tendon cut(1ap for +0,5[w] and slow down attack speed 50% on sneak attack, figuring if it can be useful on bosses).

    Sniper Shot is really good, combine it with adrenaline to have an autocrit x5 or x6 and +400% for 2k damage easy. Do it under manyshot and it's like 8k-10k with 4 arrows. Do it on a stunned mob with +30% sense weakness and stacking +30% no mercy and you will double the number O.o Looks like a nice substitute for slaying arrows, with lower cooldown and less prerequisites.
    Last edited by korsat; 08-29-2013 at 08:48 AM.
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  16. #56
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    So I'm looking at finally making a monkcher which is something I've always wanted to do and really like your build but just curious is there any reason to go HE over Human at this point? Most of my half elf chars I have seem to be struggling to find the points for the dilletante now that it's so expensive. If you were to go human is there anything you would change and what feat would you pick up?

    Thanks for any input.
    Cain.

  17. #57
    Community Member korsat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cain View Post
    So I'm looking at finally making a monkcher which is something I've always wanted to do and really like your build but just curious is there any reason to go HE over Human at this point? Most of my half elf chars I have seem to be struggling to find the points for the dilletante now that it's so expensive. If you were to go human is there anything you would change and what feat would you pick up?

    Thanks for any input.
    Cain.
    Yes, human is a good substitute at this point. Actually halfelf only gives me 1d6 sneak attack from dilettante since I don't have more ap to spend in the tree. Human would give a free feat instead and a less expensive racial tree with the nice action surge.

    I see a couple of possibilities for the bonus feat:

    1. take power attack at level 1, then take cleave at 6 and great cleave at 18, then overwhelming critical on one of the epic feats (other 2 feats are IMA and Vorpal strikes). To do this you probably need 36 point build and +4 or +5 tome (initial stats 16 15 14 10 16 8) and put a couple of points in strenght to qualify for OC. That results in -2 wisdom and no binding speed at cap but you gain more or less a 7% increase in overall dps, also you gain the cleaves (may be useful to charge blitz and for some aoe melee);

    2. drop thoughness at level 1 and take dodge, mobility with human bonus, then combat expertise at 12 with monk bonus (need 13 base int for this, 10+3 tome is enough), spring attack at 18 and whirlwind attack with one of the epic feats. Whirlwind is something I really would like to have on my build, a really strong AOE that procs offhand (yeah it's not broken with unarmed). Also in this case you have to drop binding speed at 27 (imo IMA and Vorpal strikes are too good to be dropped).

    Ok if you don't want to change the build too much some easier possibilities are:
    - take skill focus UMD at 1st level and grandmanster of forms at 18 (+1 con, +3 prr, +25% threat);
    - just the cleaves (human bonus+lvl 18 feat if you take PA at 1st level);
    - take skill focus UMD at 1st and improved sunder at 18;
    - take lighting reflex or iron will or greater fortitude for a +2 to save.

    NOTE: just tested dance of flawers, IMA and combat archery all work now for a total of +1,5+0,5+1[w] = +3[w] so you may want to start with 16 dex+5 tome to qualify for it and take in the place of binding speed. I'm not gonna do it since dance of flawers and IMA already give me +2[w].

    Remember that this guy is built to be a 50%-50% melee-ranged to get the best from both the worlds, if you're looking for a pure ranged toon, then the sithali may be more suitable for you

    hf and gl
    Last edited by korsat; 08-30-2013 at 10:08 AM.
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  18. #58
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    Thank you for your reply,
    Still not sure what I'll do yet but I'd rather stick with your build even at 50-50 as his is built around using the +4-+5 tomes and completionist. I plan on rolling a new character into this though I did find I have a +3 dex tome on one of my characters so I should be ok as far as that goes. I always thought one day I'd try for completionist but I'm not so sure after the change to quest ransack that they did. In all fairness I also don't see much of a difference between his build and yours to make his a more pure ranged build. If there is a big difference can you let me know otherwise I'll stick with yours.

    Thanks.

  19. #59
    Community Member korsat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cain View Post
    Thank you for your reply,
    Still not sure what I'll do yet but I'd rather stick with your build even at 50-50 as his is built around using the +4-+5 tomes and completionist. I plan on rolling a new character into this though I did find I have a +3 dex tome on one of my characters so I should be ok as far as that goes. I always thought one day I'd try for completionist but I'm not so sure after the change to quest ransack that they did. In all fairness I also don't see much of a difference between his build and yours to make his a more pure ranged build. If there is a big difference can you let me know otherwise I'll stick with yours.

    Thanks.
    Updated OP, I think human is definitely a good alternative and an option for 36pb:

    Quote Originally Posted by korsat View Post
    NOTE 2: since UPDATE 19, the difference between helf and human is little. I suggest human for 36 point build with +4/+5 tomes, start with 16/16/14/8/16/8, +2/+3 lvlup str and +5/+4 tome (other lvlup wis) to qualify for OC (in place of binding speed or vorpal strikes), to do this take Power Attack as human bonus feat, Cleave at lvl 6 and Great Cleave at lvl 18.
    The tradeoff is -1d6 sneak attack,-2 wisdom and -3umd for +1crit multiplier, +2 strenght and cleaves. I would say that on full geared characters 36pb with +5 tomes worth it.
    Avenlight - Human - 12Fvs/6Monk/2Pal/8Epic
    Avenlight - Human - 17Cleric/2Monk/1Fighter/8Epic
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    Korsat's Build Index

    ROS, Argonessen.

  20. #60
    Community Member Arkadios's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    571

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    So for a 34pb with +3/4 tomes half elf would be better than human?

    Edit: Also would it be better to get fighter levels at 19/20 so you can get master of forms for free at monk 12, char level 18 and pick up grandmaster of forms at the same time?
    Last edited by Arkadios; 09-14-2013 at 08:33 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by katz View Post
    wow. i actually made it to someone's sig! O.o


    yay!

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