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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    This topic should prove interesting.

    As you all know, U12 saw the release of a new type of content - Challenges.

    I would like to get your thoughts on these - preferably in a constructive manner. I’m specifically interested in gameplay feedback.
    Let me preamble with I love Dr. Rushmore's Mansion. I'm alright with Kobold Island and Extraplanar Mining. I don't like Lava Caves.

    For those who do not enjoy this type of gameplay, can you elaborate on why?
    I'm not a fan of having to herd kobolds. It's why I don't like Lava Caves, and the only reason I don't mind Extraplanar Mining is the routes are super short. The reason I don't like herding kobolds is because I feel like the kobolds are distracting me from the important stuff: killing bad guys. And there is nothing worse than an Incoming call when I'm way out laying the end of a line, and lose a bunch of kobolds by the time I get back. That's why EM doesn't bother me as much. I can get back to the center very quickly.

    Thus, I won't run Lava Caves. I'll do the quests that give me ingredients I can trade in for Lava Caves ingredients instead.

    But that's my preference. I loved Cove because we always had a full group, and I never had to lead kobolds. I got to scout for good routes and clear em out.

    Also, it kind of stinks that they stress being self-sufficient so much. Of course, really, all quests do to a certain degree.

    That said, in my opinion, it sucks that half the challenges were kobold stuff. Also, in my mind, this pack kills Crystal Cove, as it won't be a rare, interesting thing if it ever comes back.

    For those of you who do enjoy playing them, what aspects do you enjoy?
    Dr. Rushmore's is just good fun. I mean, what's not to like about running around killing things?

    But in terms of gameplay, I do enjoy the points idea. I'll often take longer runs of Picture Portals than is efficient just to see if I can 5 star it running solo. The idea of a quantified "perfect" run is kind of cool. It reminds me of the good old days of playing Tenchu on the first Playstation, and going back and forth with friends trying to get the highest score on a level.

    General feedback is encouraged, but again, please limit feedback to gameplay and respect other’s opinions. I expect this to be a very polarizing subject.

    Thanks in advance.
    In terms of general gameplay, I feel sad because it feels like good maps are going to waste for me because I don't like the challenge. Also, it's a bit of a bummer than every version of Dr. Rushmores seems more or less the same, as does every version of Kobold Island, Extraplanar Mining, and (from my very limited experience) Lava Caves.

    I think it would have been much better, and made the pack sell better, if every map had a number of different types of challenges (kobold leading, boss hunting, defending hardpoints). For example, Moving Objects could have been the boss hunting Mansion challenge. Then Picture Portals could have been a defend the harpoints challenge (make the portals a static thing so they could be learned and used effectively, and then make bad guys teleport into different rooms and you have to protect the rooms from getting wrecked), and there could have been a Raid the Mansion challenge, where you lead kobolds through and, rather than crystals, they steal books and art and other loot from the mansion.

    Do that for every map, then reduce the number of ingredients to 4, one type for each map. That way, players could play the challenge type they most enjoy, and still get the ingredients they need, and a challenge type they don't like doesn't end up being half the pack (2 kobold leading maps makes me sad). Also, if the ingredients were standardized to the map rather than the individual challenges, it would become much easier to implement more or new challenges utilizing the same maps.

    Also, I think new challenge types would be cool to implement. I know someone made the suggestion about a Blown to Bits style challenge, where you are constantly dropping explosives everywhere and killing teammates with explosions can be optionals and what not. That could be fun. Also, I wrote up a thread not too long ago titled Godmode here, and I think that would make for a fun challenge type.

    Basically, I'd like to see more variation in challenge types within the individual maps, so that people could run what they like to do most.

    The next part isn't going to be on general gameplay, but definitely challenge related.

    First, cost. Who's idea was it to do a non-standard pack yet charge an insane amount for it? I saw a post on the forums where someone hypothesized that a upper-management type saw the participation in CC and thought: "Holy cow, people love that! Let's clone and sell it for a redonkulous amount!" and I have to think that's what happened. Why else was it so over-priced? Bring the cost on it down to 750 TP, and I bet you'll make a lot more money off it.

    Second, lack of divine loot. Why were they left out? A number of items were made that were obviously meant to be caster or melee items (having abilities for both that very very very few builds could take advantage of all of them), so why weren't divine items covered here? That was a sad oversight in my mind, and I did start a thread on that here, too.

    Third, BtA switching to BtC. It's not very apparent that this happens, and I've heard of more than a couple players making a tier 3 on the wrong toon thinking it's BtA. I think they should be BtC on tier 3, but that should be more obvious (like a warning message, similar to the one you get when you are about to equip a BtA or BtC on Equip item).

    Fourth, Docents and Armor. You did a good job with Mournlode, making sure there was a version for everyone. But what about Frozen Tunic? Was there a reason you didn't want warforged getting access to a cold-caster-specced item? Or why a warforged monk wasn't supposed to get ki+1 on a body slot? Seems rude. Why not make a Frozen Docent, as well?

  2. #82
    Community Member Dawnsfire's Avatar
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    I'm probably not the type you want to hear from. I avoided challenges like the plague but perhaps the reasons why I did might be useful. . .

    1) I avoid timed content if I can. The first few times I run a quest I like to loiter and take things in. I don't like to be rushed through stuff.

    2) It is way too tied to the Crystal Cove event. I mess around on the island when the event rolls around but I detest babysitting the Kobolds. It never felt D&D to me, it felt like a Facebook game.

    3) It doesn't feel like it has a serious goal. It doesn't seem like it advances an actual serious plot line. It is just learn it so you can farm stuff. It has a 'hurry through this so you can gather stuff' feel that doesn't appeal to me.

    I get that I am probably not the type that this is meant to appeal but is I had to sum it up in one word it would be too gimmicky. Good luck with feedback from people that actually play them though. Hopefully you can improve them a bit for those people

    Quote Originally Posted by Torc View Post
    I’m only nerfing you now so I can buff you later.

  3. #83
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    I don't really mind the challenges myself. They have some decent rewards, are fairly easy with some practice which leads to progress you can count on towards whatever you're trying to achieve, and at least the mansion I find has a decent quick pace style. The thing I don't like about them is they just don't feel like D&D to me. They feel more like some shareware or popcap game to me. I get no sense of adventure from them, which is one of the biggest reasons I play MMOs.

  4. #84
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    Love the Low Level Lava Caves but from what I have seen theres not enough red named mobs for loot drop. I find it fun but agree that far to few ingredients drop for the time put in.

    Hate the Mansions, grinding and repetitive. Would love fixed crest place for doors that attach to the rooms. Also the price for the pack needs to be lowered, at least a little, and if it is those of us who bought the pack should get a refund, maybe

  5. #85
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    They suxxor! (heh ok sorry =)

    Constructive(?) Stuff:

    - I despise with a passion that I can't insta kill on a caster on epic challenges. This alone was WAY more than enough for me to boycott challenges altogether and to not help even friends in the few times when they tried to run them. I'd simply reply sorry, challenges suck, I'm not interested.

    (You guys already limited insta-kill's power by including a lot of mixed content such as constructs, undead, orange names, stuff immune to one element or necro bolts, or both, etc. This extra limiter was overkill)

    - I hate the way scoring works. It should be extremely clear that achieving X yields Y reward, and these objectives should be in the quest objectives listed as optional, and not have to be read in some compendium entry that can't be easily referenced during the quest.

    I never know exactly what the score is going to be until after the run, and then it seems to be based on some voodoo because some runs it SEEMS we do better but get worse scores, and sometimes it's the opposite and you go ...huh.

    - I also hate with a passion that there's an order to the things. So if exploring I run into a dragon, kill it, it doesn't count because someone in the party accidentally used 1 teleporter too many, etc.

    - I strongly dislike having to run 10 different quests to gather ingredients, and that maybe the one challenge I don't hate completely is the one that drops useless components. I think all items should require 5 or 6 components in equal quantity, while allowing you to exchange 1 ingredient for another in a 2:1 ratio.

    - I hate quests where soloing is nearly impossible for a reasonable time vs reward.

    This would also mean you could skip content you REALLY disliked or had horrible time to ingredient ratios.

    - Speaking of which, I hate challenges that take 10x longer and don't deliver 10x the loot.

    - Price for the pack is ABSURD. Call me when it's in the 700 or so BASE AND then it gets discounted 20%
    .
    (Side note: Price for Artificers is also absurd, which is why I won't be rolling one apparently ever, since I don't care to do these !*#^! quests as they are to gather the favour to unlock. I still say making Arty's a regular favor reward for VIPs would have lessened a lot of the ill-will you created)

    Lastly, I can't help but feel that you guys took something super special (CC) and cheapened it by making it available 24/7. These quests would have made for AWESOME future festival quests.
    Last edited by Solmage; 01-11-2012 at 11:13 PM.
    Devs: Thanks for making Druids available to VIPs without the pack. This more than anything, has made me want to buy the pack.

  6. #86
    Community Member Ralmeth's Avatar
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    When the challenges first came out I really didn't get terribly excited about them and it was some time before I ran one. Perhaps this was because there didn't seem to be a story or compelling reason to want to run them . I didn't even really know what they were about. I took a look at the loot on DDOWiki and didn't see anything that really wowed me (no shields to replace my now ugly Epic Swashbuckler, really? Do developers hate shields?) and it looked like a lot of grinding. So I eventually tried a handful of challenges to see what they were all about:

    Kobold Island challenges:
    I tried one of these (the disruptor) on level 20 with myself on my 20th level Pally and a guildie of mine. It was crazy. There were so many things going on around the island and it wasn't clear to me what I needed to do. When a big red name showed up I spent quite a bit of time fighting them. Overall, I came away confused as to what I should have done, with my only thought that you probably need a full group to do the zillion things that need to be done. I haven't ran one since, or had the desire to go back because it didn't seem clear what I was supposed to even be doing.

    Mansion challenges:
    I ran one of these a few times. I liked the fast pace and motivation to keep moving, adding time on as you got through different portals. It was lots of fun, except when I got to a boss guy that had a gazillion elementals around him. My guildie and I were able to beat the elementals and boss guy eventually, but it was a frustrating fight (air elementals blowing you around for example) and I couldn't help but think if I was an uber caster the fight would have been over easily. Which just irks me to no end.

    Crystal Cove challenges:
    Loved it! I really like the Crystal Cove and I'm glad I could run this type of quest again. I've done these a few times and enjoyed it each time.

    Overall Thoughts:
    In general, these seemed fun and something a little different to do. I think there needs to be a story line / reason for adventurers to want to run them. I did like that you could select what level you could run at. However the higher difficulty levels need to be more melee friendly (though you could say this about epics in general). It's not fun to swing, and swing, and swing, and swing, and swing, at the same trash mob. There's a certain number of swings it should take to kill a mob to keep gameplay enjoyable. But I digress (into one of my pet peeves). Certainly when I log on, I don't think to myself...ooh, let me go run a challenge, instead I'm looking at what raids or epics are going on.
    Aryk Stoutheart, Paladin - Sarlona
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  7. #87
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    I like the challenges, and I like being able to pick out items in advance that are useful and reliably available.

    I'm not experienced enough at them to provide detailed feedback, but I can suggest that you pretty much need mentoring or ddo wiki access to figure out how to do them -- or quite a bit of patience. I went the "wiki" route, but wasn't entirely comfortable doing it; in general, I like being able to figure out what to do without having to do external reading or invest a lot of time just on the "puzzling through" part. Perhaps better in-game tips for the challenges would help newer players not give up in frustration.

    Don't make them more complicated, if you do similar things in the future.

  8. #88
    Community Member bbqzor's Avatar
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    As before, answering the questions in an itemized format.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    For those who do not enjoy this type of gameplay, can you elaborate on why?
    At the risk of coming across as unruly, here is the rather large list of things I do not enjoy about them.

    - They're Timed. This makes it very hard to play them in some of the more common mmo situations. Need afk to bio? Can't, timed. Coffee burning or stove beeping or cooking situation need attention? Tough, timed. Kid needs you a second? Well, there goes your progress, timed. The timed nature of these is somewhat necessary by their format, however its also one of their own worst enemies. Either these need to be kept very short (like 10, maybe 15 minutes tops; none of those 30-40 minute rushmore ones) where you could plausibly time those things outside them for the most part. Or, they need to be rethought to avoid, or provide alternatives for, any timers in future ones.

    - Horrible Scaling. This makes it non-group friendly. By which I mean, I have 5 star'd about half of them solo or duo, including some on epic. It would be much more difficult to do that in a full group, simply because the mobs scale up so amazingly much. This is largely due to their hp scaling, specifically. It simply makes it take longer to do anything, which results in it going slower, which again works against the timed nature of things. They need to scale a lot less, especially in the mob hp department. As someone with over 160 cannith favor and tons of parts I assure you I'm not asking for the change out of an inability or unease with attaining the rewards. Its just not fun to tell people no, I don't want to group with you, you would be dead weight because of how Turbine coded it. While adding someone always bears the risk of them slowing you down with sub-par play, here it slows you down regardless of what they do... and that's not really much fun. (note, I consider hirelings not scaling it to be a wise choice, as it avoids punishing which classes you bring to a large extent; something that cannot be said of many places).

    - Drastically Different Payouts. Some of them pay out well for your time, some of them decidedly do not. And, sadly, most of the fun ones (for me and my regulars anyhow) are the good payout ones. Why is this sad? Because I have to do the most reps, of the least fun missions. Getting the first chunk of ingredients wasn't so bad... but finishing up the rest feels like a horrible grind because I know when I log on for it that I'll be facing the same thing I don't like over and over. The trading hand ins to covert parts helps somewhat, but in the end its still (in most cases) shorter to do the mission you need (which I think it should be or the trade option would be too good), and for people with limited playtime it somewhat forces their hand into the quickest, not most fun, option. Consider taking some of the more popular or better paying ones, and trying to bring up some of the crappy payout ones up a bit. One of the castle missions (if I recall correctly) was paying something like 60% of the farmed amount on a run where the mission was higher level than the group... is that really necessary? In general, getting like 200-250 parts from there, when some other missions pay out like 350-450 is kind of disheartening, to say the least. Let alone some of the gravy ones which can go even higher. Requiring repeats for totally abstract reasons is not popular with me, heh.

    - Unique Objectives Cause Unique Problems. I'm looking at you, Kobold Island. While defending things isn't new to DDO, defending them all over a whole zone largely is, rather than in a smaller area where you can combine arms. And, there can be more spots to defend than you can have people. This creates a situation where you really need several self-sufficient people to try and cover as much ground as consistently as possible, which caters to building very specific groups. To top it off, when defending only certain attacks/abilities are generally useful (depending on mob type, and the speed with which you need to control small groups of mobs) and combined you've rather alienated a large number of builds. The complaint here, as it were, is to maybe lighten up on some of the pressure. Maybe allow us to turn off a small extractor after a large is turned on, or spend shards on a 5 minute extractor cloaking in addition to turrets, or something. But you can't add a relatively specific group building requirement, and then make it a relatively general ingredient requirement, and not expect it to rub folks the wrong way.

    - "Required" DDO Store Items. Yes, okay, I could farm for hundreds of missions and maybe enough would drop to not have to use the store. But practically speaking, if you want to gold star some of them (again, looking at you Kobold Island), you need to use the store. This is just unnecessary and insulting. Again, there's more than enough favor without doing those ones, and you can get ingredients without getting all the stars, so its not an issue of being forced to buy anything. But, it is something you cannot practically complete, without buying anything, and personally I feel nothing in the game should be beatable only by paying to do so. As the only thing its preventing is a 'completionist' feeling, whats the harm of fixing the requirements to allow this. If the argument over there is, well they drop so you could save enough up... well your drop rates may need to be adjusted. And also, you might consider making them mission specific if they're not already. I honestly didn't pay super close attention to what dropped where, but knowing that if I want a skeleton crest I can at least limit it to missions using crests, that's a way to feel like I'm working towards the right direction.

    - The Chests. Boy do I hate them. They can spawn in a full inventory and delete something, that right there is a problem. And I can't avoid looting junk like arrows if I want to, so I have to spend extra clicks destroying or selling them. And they do not drop renown, which can be more valuable than vendor loot to some people. And they all require killing, every single one I can think of. No more stealth runs for rogues, or open locks, or optional objective spawns, etc. This is so unfortunate for the game. I know why: because they're timed, and because generally it wouldn't be good if people could blitz open them and recall out, nor would it be good if they ransacked after a few runs given the number of reps you have to do here. But for heaven's sake that doesn't mean they have to be sub par. Let chests of the same CR stack, that cuts down on the inventory slots taken. Stop them from deleting stuff when full and let it go into overflow, same as festival cookies or something (and cookies also stack, like chests should). Put renown in the chests so you don't have to look elsewhere to pay your daily decay before coming to house C. Maybe add a few (clam style so don't ransack) behind locked doors, or after talking and taking a non-combat resolution. Just put some work in on them.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    For those of you who do enjoy playing them, what aspects do you enjoy?
    And now, the smaller list of what I enjoy.

    - Solo/Duo-ability. Yes, I just said above I dislike that its less advantageous to group. However, I also like that it is something I can log in and solo when no ones on, when I'm not feeling sociable, when I'm waiting on a raid to finish to catch the next one, when I'm timer-ed out on whatever's in the lfm, etc. Whatever is done to address the grouping issues above, maintaining the ability to solo and duo these is important. I would not want to see missions with objectives that required hitting 4 switches at once, or some other nonsense, where it was specifically designed to 'hurt' the solo player. I know you're not sitting there in your leather armchairs planning how to hurt people while sipping brandy and laughing maniacally (well, not Madfloyd anyhow) but when I see design like that, that's how it feels.

    - Diverse Gameplay. Well, diverse relative to other missions/quests anyhow. I would like to see that maintained in the future, with the next ones perhaps ignoring kobolds, torches, extractors, pictures, and generally anything the heck having to do with the current set. Maybe one where you kill mobs and loot keys and open doors and facilitate a jailbreak of captured adventurers who help you as you unlock them (kinda like New Invasion or CO6 combined with Wrath of Flame post succubi in the middle combined with the fluff of Ghola Fan), so by the end you are leading a train of like 30 npcs you can buff up with bard songs and laugh when they all fall over to cometfall at once. But whatever you do, dont make defending them required. Let us send some npcs to their deaths for once... they're adventurers, they knew the risks. Freedom or Death! Anyhow its just one idea (which you are free to use) just don't give us more of the same in the next batch. I am tired of kobolds... its dungeons and dragons not dungeons and cute kobolds following torches (I mean stat wise they even have darkvision not scent, come on).

    - Partly, the XP. Do not misunderstand me, the xp in here is generally poor. However, the 'first time' bonus parallel of unlocking the stars is great and fun. In other words, these missions pay off more the first time relative to others, and less on repeats relative to others. That is a model I am inclined to say is a good idea. I would like for content to be higher on rewards the first run, so that it is a game of diverse playing with changing story, and not a game of Shroud #500 hoooooo. I understand some repetition will always be needed... but consider keeping it at least as low as it is now, possibly lower. Its not too far worse than anything else, but its creeping up there. If anything, go lower, maintaining this level of reps for future items is going to be a bit much, imo.

    - Item Rewards. Not to be confused with liking the items, I think the stats could definitely use some work (as usual, some clear winners, some losers, and some what were they thinkings... by this point players can pretty readily look at an item and call a spade a spade, the item devs should sure be able to do the same). However, not needing to run a ton of runs waiting for the last piece to drop has an appeal. And being able to choose tokens or loot, lets people cater to farming what they want to farm, and to both get some advancement in whatever adventures folks need. In other words, it saves 'I need an item out of quest A, and you need one out of quest B, so lets run both and half the time maybe I get something'. This is why, I assume, that the reps required was aimed high... since while it takes a tad more work, the payout is guaranteed. While the format of rewards (flexible so accommodating to different build's item goals, and more slanted towards time in rather than luck) is good, I again hope the items themselves and the reps required are examined.

    I am sure there's more I'm forgetting, but this is a monster post as it is so I'll leave it at that for now. Thanks for the chance to offer feedback, cheers.

  9. #89
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    I haven't read the whole thread so I'll likely be parroting some common concerns.

    First off I'll preface this by saying I do not own the pack but do challenges, via daily token hoarding, on a regular basis with characters at levels from 4 to 20. I find them fun and there are very nice items to be acquired.

    Now the meat, Pricing:
    Way out of whack. The one sale was still overpriced, in my opinion. I mean if you take 30% of the letters away from "Way Too Much" you still end up with "Too Much".

    Next, Pay to Win:
    Having objectives that are only possible through DDO Store purchases is what leads to marketing departments being the ones "first against the wall when the revolution comes." I will grant that the items required also drop randomly within random challenges themselves, but at the rate that I have seen turret requisitions it will take a full year of 20 challenges a day to get enough to try and 5/gold star The Disruptor one time, then I'd still need to be everywhere at once right from the start.

    Next, Scaling:
    Brutal. If I do these with more than 2 friends, I shouldn't have (what feels like) 3000% increase in spawns and their hit points.

    Lastly (for now, it's late and I'm tired) Nonsensical lvl8 items:
    I've already asked about this in the Quests and Challenges forum, to no avail:

    You can get ingredients for lvl4 challenge items at lvl4

    You can get ingredients for lvl8 challenge items at lvl12, lvl10 if you trade for mephit wings.

    You can get ingredients for lvl12 challenge items at lvl12, lvl10 if you trade for mephit wings.

    You can get ingredients for lvl16 challenge items at lvl15.

    You can get ingredients for lvl20 challenge items at lvl15.

    ^^ What's wrong with that picture?

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    I would like to get your thoughts on these - preferably in a constructive manner. I’m specifically interested in gameplay feedback.
    Quick hits of some challenges design feedback:
    • The mechanic of a wide level range could've been separated from the "time-limited odd objective game" nature of challenges. There's nothing solid connecting those two ideas.

    • Some objectives don't seem fully designed, or rely on too much randomness of spawn positions. (How many people have gotten full stars on Colossal?).

    • It's a bit counterintuitive, but having a strict timelimit can work against replayability by punishing people who deviate from the "right" way to play the challenge. If you divert away from the optimal path, you're losing out.

    • Superlinear scaling with group size. Basically, increasing the number of players raises both the hitpoints of monsters and quantity of monsters, which is rather like doubling your team quadruples the enemy. That is especially bad when there is a deadline and there is a dungeon alert threshold of a number of monsters which is not scaled upward with party size.

    • Divergence between getting stars and getting loot. Basically, star objectives are meaningless wastes unless you are on a max-favor attempt, which is only needed once per character. Being good at stars is quite different from being good at loot.

    • It doesn't make sense to have the most expensive pack also allow (eventual) access to every single instance for free. Imagine if Gianthold allowed f2p people to get into one dungeon per day: that would lower the gain from buying a Gianthold pack, thus making it seem like that pack should be cheaper.

    • Let's count up the ways in which Challenges favor mages over other characters (beyond the usual advantages of mages):
      1. You are under a strict timelimit, so the ability to blast resources faster to kill faster is important.
      2. You need to move from place to place quickly, advantaging those who can cast Haste (plus those with Leap of Faith or Barb/Acrobat running)
      3. You often (2/4) need to make kobolds run faster, advantaging those who have Haste.
      4. You often (3/4) need to return to the center quickly, advantaging those who have Dimension Door.
      5. You often (2/4) need to send kobolds to the center quickly, advantaging those who have Dimension Door. This is especially true when a star objective requires no teleporters.
      6. You may need to protect Kobolds, advantaging people who have Invisibility. (Previously applied to extractors too)
      7. You need to kill monsters without diverting from your running route, advantaging people with ranged attacks.
      8. You often can't Madstone, disadvantaging those who don't cast spells.
      9. Air Elementals + strict timelimit.
      10. Party size scales up the number of monsters, but killing 7 guys with Cone Of Cold can be just as easy as killing 2 of them.

    • Abusing Kobolds again and again gets old.
    Last edited by Angelus_dead; 01-12-2012 at 12:38 AM.

  11. #91
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    One more thing I'd suggest. Currently getting items from the Challenges takes a fair number of runs. Maybe make 'tier 0' items that are really quite low quality versions of the real items, but that can be attained quickly.

    As an example, the 'tier 0' Epic Elemental Greataxe of Fire might just have the augmented base damage and the Greater Incineration from the 20/t1 axe, but nothing else.
    I don't have a zerging problem.

    I'm zerging. That's YOUR problem.

  12. #92
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    Playing FvS or caster speced artificer i do ok in most of the challenges.
    currentlich doing the lvl21 epic ones. while grouping in "time is money" i noticed that for example rogues and elven sorcs have way harder time in there.
    so i guess getting good results it's heavily class dependant. could be a letdown to some who bought the pack.
    in addition having to repeat the same challenges over and over again becomes boring with time. (ok.some were even boring from the start.)

    we need more randomness for less predictable outcomes and to give everyone the same chance on completing his stuff.


    i'd suggest to add some new challenge types for people who are not that self sufficiant to give them an opportunity to get their mats.

    the new mage fire canons have potential. you could easily implement some tower defense mini game where the player won't come in direct contact with the mobs.

    you could even make it xoriat themed so you could spawn the enctrance in any challenge any time at random locations.
    reward could be a random typed mat.

    the content could be something like: preventing beds and bookshelves from building an air ship and invade eberron by taking them out before they reach their destination. this would be done by building and upgarding different kinds of mage fire cannons along their way.

  13. #93
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    I like most of the challenges. My main complaint with them is that too many of them involve torch running. Torch running is very boring. One challenge map with torch running would have been enough. Please do not inflict more torch running challenges on us.

    The reason it sucks IMHO is that it involves nothing anyone builds a character to do. A hireling could be programed to easily do it... infact if you put a torch running hireling in the store it would likely be your biggest selling challenge item. When I am picking what I am going to spend my time doing, I prefer to pick things that will either make me shine, or that I will struggle through. The first is a fun pick me up. The second is for the feeling you get when you overcome incredible odds.

    Running torches does not allow for either of those to occur. Other things in the quest might, but honestly running torches is one of the most menial things I could possible do with my time. Climbing up things and jumping off them in the market without any accomplishment is more fun.

    Possibly more constructive feedback: One problem I have been experiencing on sarlona is that it is difficult to find people to run them with. Based on my guildies varying attitudes, I suspect it is that no one wants to learn how to succeed with this different structure of stars/scores. The weird differences between the challenges scare people off. If you can mitigate that at your end it would be nice.

    I suspect another reason for the lack of groups is no one wants to teach others how to run them, and they are a far too new and unpopular a thing for people to be able to expect anyone they run with at all to know what they are doing. I honestly don't blame them. I spent an entire day trying to get people to come learn how to run them, and by the end of it I was burned out, not from running them, but from trying to explain everything.

    As a side note, I have done successful runs of every basic map on: Arcane archer, acrobat w/ ftr splash, wizard, sorc, cleric, monk/pally, monk, barb... all solo. Some seemed easier to me on non arcanes/divines due to the lack of rest shrines. Some seemed easier on my melee types than on my ranged/caster types, though I'm not sure why.

    Edit: Add my voice to those mentioning the scaling (specificly the number of mobs) they have said everything I would on the subject.
    Last edited by Havok.cry; 01-12-2012 at 01:52 AM.
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  14. #94
    Community Member zorander6's Avatar
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    I'm trying to be constructive but the price for the pack is exorbitant. As for the challenges themselves I never see groups for them, I have only run one, and have no desire to deal with yet another crafting system. I mean seriously that's what, 9 different crafting systems now that I have to collect different items for? Crystal Cove was ok as a random event but seriously no desire to try challenges. I am not fond of timed quests and have no desire to run them unless absolutely necessary.

    I gave up on cannith crafting since it was too time consuming for what little game time I get, I have not even started shroud crafting, and seriously have no desire to start challenge crafting. Every pack IMO does not need a new crafting system and personally I'd be happier if there could be a maximum of one or at most two crafting systems (gasp combine shroud crafting with lesser ones?) Sorry I see more requests for airships with altars for shroud than I do for challenges. Could I lead one? Sure, but I have other quests I'd rather run.

    Frankly I'm probably not the intended market but I have no desire to bother with the challenges. If there was an item that would help my cleric or favored soul that I felt could be acquired in a reasonable amount of time I might bother but honestly haven't heard of anything worthwhile.
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  15. #95
    The Front Side Gratch's Avatar
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    I like the challenge content as it does mix things up, gives a direct line of rewards that let you build toward certain gear (as well as slotting that gear). Though while we have the content devs at the capped end (80% of my toons are capped at all times), I'd really like more high level raids especially ones with a challenge like the pair of epic raids we just got. MORE OF THAT IS MY HIGHEST WISH.

    As to the specific challenges. Some of it still needs rebalancing and sometimes the challenges seem to get randomly setup in unwinnable fashions (no crests to unlock rushmore doors, no purples anywhere near a torch chain in the lava caves, etc). There also seems to be a massively unfair balancing of mob HP versus arcanes for some reason. I get that in short and non-epic quests arcanes are abit Op. But in long spell point exhausting quests (dragon hoarde, colossal, disruptor) with epicwarded mobs and boss mobs that never run out of HP's - arcanes are almost the worst thing to have. Why so wardist and classist Turbine?
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  16. #96
    Community Member Drona's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dawnsfire View Post
    1) I avoid timed content if I can. The first few times I run a quest I like to loiter and take things in. I don't like to be rushed through stuff.

    2) It is way too tied to the Crystal Cove event. I mess around on the island when the event rolls around but I detest babysitting the Kobolds. It never felt D&D to me, it felt like a Facebook game.

    3) It doesn't feel like it has a serious goal. It doesn't seem like it advances an actual serious plot line. It is just learn it so you can farm stuff. It has a 'hurry through this so you can gather stuff' feel that doesn't appeal to me.
    Absolutely correct!

  17. #97
    2014 DDO Players Council Flavilandile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    This topic should prove interesting.

    As you all know, U12 saw the release of a new type of content - Challenges.

    I would like to get your thoughts on these - preferably in a constructive manner. I’m specifically interested in gameplay feedback.
    Oh dear.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    For those who do not enjoy this type of gameplay, can you elaborate on why?
    ok, I find the challenge as an effective time sink between two groups. Now I hate Rushmore... this Specific map is a pain and this kind of challenge is awful... And I only get tokens for it.

    The other ones are more interesting though after a few times they become boring and tedious. ( like Cove, but Cove had both the items and the XP appeal, which the Challenges don't have )

    Seriously, in my opinion Challenges are great idea for event type things, but not as a standard feature that is always on. Thats what made the Cove so loved, a Challenge with great items to get.

    Right now the Challenges have several problems compared to the Cove :
    - They are always on, people will get bored with them
    - The items are not that appealing ( in fact compared to cove, crafted and other epic items they have almost no appeal )
    - the pack price is too high. ( ok, I don't care I'm VIP, but a lot of people don't have them because they are F2P/Premium and don't want to pay that much for Cove rehash. )

    Last, I find them tough on anything that is not a minmaxed arcane... On a minmaxed arcane it's just zergathon.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    For those of you who do enjoy playing them, what aspects do you enjoy?
    Pro and Con above.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    General feedback is encouraged, but again, please limit feedback to gameplay and respect other’s opinions. I expect this to be a very polarizing subject.

    Thanks in advance.
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  18. #98
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    Well i bought the pack and was disappointed. Why? The items are good, i like them. But that's the problem - I like a few to have on several of my toons. And here the grind begins:

    Let's just assume you go for Tier 3 - you need twice as much items as you need from the Epic Challenges than you needed for Tier 1. However you still end farming the same optionals all over again. I woul really appreciate some kind of variety. Is it too much to ask to assign for Tier 1 Rushmore-ingredients, for Tier 2 Lava-Cave stuff and for Tier 3 Extraplanar Palace ones? So you can switch to other challenges as soon as you get bored and don't just have to grind the same quest (if epic or not) over and over and over again till you get the amount you want. If you want 2 or 3 items of the same kind, well its just even longer you need to farm the quests. At least you got one good point - they are BtA up to Tier 2, but if you want to slot some stuff in there, you also want to go up to Tier 3 which means you need to grind again till you got that extra Item up to Tier 2 for your other characters to use.

    You might get a pro running the same challenge all over again but seriously.... you consider this as fun? And I hope you all agree on the fact that DDO should be fun to play.

    I'm quite experienced, got several 5-star optionals done and also got enough favor to unlock Artificer, so I had a good look in all of the challenges. I like several of the optionals you have to do, some are harder to get as others but they are quite easy to 5-star them with a bit of effort (i played before you made it easier with the last patch, I just was too demotivated to run the same challenge up to xyz times to get enough of the items to fully upgrade the rewards you get there as a side note, so not sure what exactly changed since then) but I guess the basic principle remained the same.

    Now a closer look to the special areas:
    Rushmore - it's quite fun to play, however if you got all doors covered and all optionals done you can choose if you hunt more enemies down or wait the remaining 10-15 minutes to pass. I would appreciate a 'hand in and get reward , I'm fine with what i achieved so far'-option. Saves you some idling till the time runs out. Maybe all of the rushmore adventures should have several salesmen where you can sell your spare time to them to make it end quicker.

    Lava Caves & Extraplanar Palace - quite fun to play, I liked the extraplanar palace more however. Lavacaves was just too close to CC. Optionals are not that different but either its the palace environment or sth else - if i can choose, I'd vote for palace to do some stuff in theres

    Kobold Island - One word fits it best i assume: HORRIBLE. As mentioned before i played it before the last challenge-patch which should make it easier, but it was quite a pain covering all of the extractors, for some optionals you even dont have enough time to suceed in there and the fact that you need stuff from the ddo-store to have even a slight chance to get more stars in there... doubt you will sell much of those and it also makes the challenges less popular. Not sure if you are aiming for that, but if you did you scored!

    To sum it up - i bought the challenges-package. But it is pretty unlikely I will buy any further challenge packages if more come out. It is something different but its a) too much grind of the same challenge over and over again b) all of the challenges are too similar - aim for variety! You achieved it with the quests, why did you fail at the challenges? c) the price really hurt

  19. #99
    Hopeless Romantic dunklezhan's Avatar
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    I know people are running these things - but I have yet to see a single LFM on Argo, euro evening times. THis could be because they aren't being run on argo at those times, it could be that they aren't being run in PuGs (which is a crying shame) or it could be that people are soloing them.

    I'd like to see LFM integration improved for challenges, for example the quest names in the LFM panel be changed to start with 'Challenge - [name]' to make them easier to find, as they would be all clustered together. I'd also like to see an LFM created for one of these selections default to +/- 1 level of the level of the person starting the LFM.

    I'm also not sure its necessary to have all the ingredient types split over the 5 level brackets with the exception of maybe the epic gear. Fact of the matter is a lot of people (not me especially) level so fast that its pointless buying anything other than the L16+ stuff, unless you intend to hold onto the lowbie ingredients or gear until the next life.

    I'm all for different ingredients coming from different challenges - but why not have those ingredients count for different items, not different levels of items? E.g. the ingredients you get from the Disruptor are always used to buy x y and z items - of whatever level. The only thing that changes between item x of L4, 8, 12, 16 would be the number of ingredients. This would more closely link certain gear with specific challenges, and hopefully would mean that players could for example pop back into a specific challenge once per level until the number of ingredients they have dovetails with the price of an item of comparable level, then they can choose to spend it there and then.

    I think what's happening right now is that people are grinding the challenges at L4, 8, 12, 16 for ingredients in order to get an item they can usefor the next 4 levels, instead of just playing them in a more ad hoc fashion and buying stuff when they have enough ingredients. Currently you can't do that - starting at L4, by the time you'd have enough ingredients you'll be L7 or 8 and you want the L8 gear, but now you have to grind a whole different set of ingredients.

    I like the idea of the challenges, I'd quite like to run them, but folks in my guild are not interested at all, there's no LFMs, and I don't want to start LFMs for challenges and give people the impression that I know what I'm doing...
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    The best of the best DDO players generally overperform when given a real challenge

  20. #100
    Community Member Feithlin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dawnsfire View Post
    I'm probably not the type you want to hear from. I avoided challenges like the plague but perhaps the reasons why I did might be useful. . .

    1) I avoid timed content if I can. The first few times I run a quest I like to loiter and take things in. I don't like to be rushed through stuff.

    2) It is way too tied to the Crystal Cove event. I mess around on the island when the event rolls around but I detest babysitting the Kobolds. It never felt D&D to me, it felt like a Facebook game.

    3) It doesn't feel like it has a serious goal. It doesn't seem like it advances an actual serious plot line. It is just learn it so you can farm stuff. It has a 'hurry through this so you can gather stuff' feel that doesn't appeal to me.

    I get that I am probably not the type that this is meant to appeal but is I had to sum it up in one word it would be too gimmicky. Good luck with feedback from people that actually play them though. Hopefully you can improve them a bit for those people
    I have an overall similar feeling about challenges. This sounds more nintendo than D&D. It's probably possible to make challenges with a more serious feeling though.

    In general, I'm also not a big fan of timed quests. The good point of some of the challenges is that they're short (not all of them though), so I can do one then go to something more serious.
    Overall, challenges greatly favor characters with a high speed run, and casters in general. I only do the challenges with my monk and my wizard.
    * An example of another way to do it would be a challenge where you need to defend an outpost, with waves of enemies every time harder, with the points depending on how long you could survive. To prevent the challenge from requiring your death, you could have an option to stop after each wave so a character who had a bad time could decide to stop there.
    * Another type of challenges could be to involve sneaking in a house to assassinate someone. The stealth could be optional for the barbarian-lovers, but still be an effective way to complete the challenge.
    There are probably a lot more possibilities, these are only examples.

    In the future, I wouldn't like updates with only challenges. It could be fine if there were 3-4 quests with one though, but in this case, the challenge should be some kind of bonus, not a requisite to advance the quest chain.

    I like the fact that you can do them at every level with some benefit. This way, I can level my toon and do a challenge from time to time to gather some ingredients and get some xp. I'm not in the xp per minute mood so I don't really care if it's not the best way to level.

    I also like the fact that you can do them for free. It takes more time to gather the ingredients obviously, but this is possible. And since I hate doing the same quest 5 times in a row, it's fine to do one from time to time.

    As a final note, I would reiterate that I prefer content with a plot, more than platform-games, even if some are acceptable from time to time as long as they don't replace the *real* quests, which constitute the game.
    Thelanis: Nassim* (F12/P6/M2) - Talienor** (P18/Ra2) - Feithlin** (F12/Bd7/C1) - Stoneoak* (F12/M6/P2) - Hokusai (M17/F2/C1) - Ardence* (Bd15/F3/Ro2) - Matsushiro* (Ro11/M6/P3) | Argonessen: Luneargent (W18/Ro2) - Talienor (Ro20) - Takshir (Bd16/F2/Ro2) - Hiacynthe (C20) | Ghallanda: A bunch of pre DDO Unlimited characters (field of testing for post U19 )

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