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  1. #141
    Community Member Bakarne's Avatar
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    I have no desire to play the challenges. I was burnt out on Crystal Cove, and I have never even visited Mabar. Considering both of those are free, I will not purchase the challenge pack. Like posted above, they seem like minigames and not real quests.

    Also, I do not wish to deal with even more ingredients clogging up my inventory. I already have 2 or 3 ingredient bags on all my characters and I'm at the limit with Scrolls, Seals, Shards and Cannith Crafting items as is. Imagine my annoyance first walking into the U11 explorable areas, as I cannot even choose to leave that junk on the ground.

    During Crystal Cove it was impossible to pry people away from the event to do other raids and epics. Somewhat understandable due to limited time scale of the event. However, now my guild is entirely worthless for actual questing as they just want to do challenges for the quickest tokens. Unfortunately, there's no fixed and timed end for challenges. Considering finding somewhere else to play if the guild is going to be this consistently lame.

    30 tokens for a Yellow slot in normal game play is far too tedious, especially if you swap gear (tanks especially).

    Epic VoN4 and Spies in the House need to reward a full dungeon token for the trouble, but real epics all around need a boost to match the epic token rate you can achieve via challenges.

    P.S. I had someone with that stupid Elemental Rapier with the Slicing Winds effect blow out my dancing ball crowd control in an epic. Why go through the effort to get a weapon that just is a griefing nuisance?
    Last edited by Bakarne; 01-12-2012 at 10:15 AM.
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  2. #142
    Community Member Calonderial's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by le_goat View Post
    I've only run three of the challenges so far so my opinion may be watered down:

    1. Rushmore: you either need to drop more crests, require less crests or scale the mansion down by 1/3rd

    2.the one that you kill the kobolds for parts-personally i think the mobs respawn too quickly .

    3.lava caves- multi-floor maps and kobolds do not mix.
    100% agreed on this

  3. #143
    Community Member red_cardinal's Avatar
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    There are still bugs with challenges.
    Lava caves - buying time - level 16 - Giants still drop unpickable bags,
    Kobolds don't follow torch line -> Please, make it strictly to follow torch line. If kobold has some 3D area in which detects torch position, then maybe you should limit that to the very near area. Also, let kobold be lead by a player, if no torch in neighborhood.

  4. #144
    Community Member Meat-Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocBenway View Post

    Now the meat, Pricing:
    Way out of whack. The one sale was still overpriced, in my opinion. I mean if you take 30% of the letters away from "Way Too Much" you still end up with "Too Much".


    LOL!

    Funny.
    Clever.
    AND Accurate.

    = +1
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  5. #145

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    I don't care that much for the challenges. The similarity between them, the Cove and, to a lesser extant, Mabar events is the reason. When the events are in session, I don't object to spending a week grinding away to obtain something I find useful because I know the torture will end. The permanent nature of the challenges appears to me as a hill I have no wish to climb for items that frankly I don't want, need or could craft-copy if I did.

    I understand their appeal to many, yet I'd rather spend my time running regular quests which are, to me anyway, not so mindlessly grindy. I don't wish to imply that the inclusion of the challenge system is a bad thing or that time was wasted on it when more important aspects of the game need to be addressed. I simply find them... boring.

  6. #146
    Community Member undeadted's Avatar
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    At first I was totally against the very idea of these, but they grew on me a little. They provide a nice distraction from questing from time to time, and the gear is great for some of my builds, which is why I bought them.
    That said, I don't want to see any more development time spent on them. These kind of things work much better as special events, because they become way too repetitive. They are too far removed from the spirit of D&D in my opinion. They remind me of console games sometimes, and that isn't really a good thing.
    More quests please.

  7. #147
    Community Member SickCat's Avatar
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    Unfortunately for the Challenges systems (in so far as I'm personally concerned) I've been playing MMO's since they came out, and I played MUD's before that...this means that I was burned out on grinding a LONG time ago. Challenges, again, for me, turned out to be Grindages...I got two pieces of unupgraded gear and couldn't do it anymore. There's my perspective
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  8. #148
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    Thumbs up

    Overall I think challenges have been a fantastic addition to the game as they are a change of pace from questing and the rewards are good, but not mandatory where everyone feels like they have to run them. I like the variety offered, the mansion and the cove-like challeneges are my favorite (minus collosal crystals). Here's some constructive feedback I think could make them better:

    1) Give challenges more of a group focus rather than encouraging groups to split up. A vast majority of the challenges encourage your group to split up instead of staying together, making less self-sufficient characters (usually melee) less useful when grouping. For instance, running lava caves most groups have someone torch, someone guard the center and others scout for good crystal locations. In all those instances it's more useful to have self sufficient characters. It's also not terribly fun to get stuck on guard the center duty. Kobold island is a lot worse, as usually players are expected to solo defend an extractor. More grouping type objectives, such as the mansion where you usually zerg as a group to ensure you have the right crests would make challenges more accessible to everyone. Plus, it's more fun to play with your group rather than solo in the same area as your party towards a common objective.

    2) Any quest that has a timer, needs to have an option to either spend down the time or end the quest. Nothing quite like finishing a mansion run and having to wait 15 minutes to receive your reward if you completed with extra time on the clock. Buying time is a good example where you pick how long the challenge goes for, or Picture Portals where you can spend down your extra time at the end from the kobold.

    3) Give groups a chance to buff when entering before starting the timer. Make it a circle where until your group leaves that small starting area, time won't start ticking down.

    4) Make stars for completing optional objectives add a multiplier or additional reward materials at the end. It was frustrating trying run challenges for favor to unlock artificer (done now!) because many of the LFM groups were farming for materials. When farming for materials, there is no reason to even try for the optional objectives since you don't get anything additional for them. So unless the group specifically forms to farm for favor, the optionals are ignored (now when I do challenges, I don't want to even try for the optionals as I don't need them anymore). I think it would be worth looking into encouraging groups to try for optionals by increasing rewards for completing additional stars.

    5) Agreed with others that optional objectives shouldn't require items from the DDO store.

    Love what has been done with the challenges so far, but would love to see any new ones created stray away from the mantra of everyone splitting up and more of a focus on staying together. I know a lot of people complain that challenges are the best way to farm epic tokens, but I think it's ok as there is a tradeoff involved. If you're turning in your rewards for tokens, you're not using them to get items. Whereas when I'm doing epic quests, I have the opportunity to pull scrolls/seals/shards on top of the token rewards.

  9. #149
    Community Member red_cardinal's Avatar
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    Challenges might be a little overpriced, but they offer pretty good equipment, crafting at all levels including epic and they're quite fun.

    The other remark I might add is that you have overdone on kobolds. Only Rushmore is different, the rest are kobolds. Not really enthusiastic about that. I understand that you hired a good voice actor and stuff - but at least you could've put Troglodytes on the Kobold island instead kobolds :P.

  10. #150
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    Smile 2cps

    I agree with Psiandron. I would add that I find the overall problem for these quests to be that for players who like this playstyle, they will run, and re-run them and grind out the content or play it for fun. For those who do not, especially casual players, there is little to offer. If you do not like the quests, whatever the reason, then you are not going to grind them out - because rather than having good loot drop, you tacked on ANOTHER inane crafting protocol. Not only do many casual players not want to grind with their limited time, they do not want to learn yet some other system on how to build an item, often not even knowing what they should build or what fits best for their character.

    I will say this, IF you made some challenges where you could pull good items from a chest, rather than having to learn another inane crafting protocal, I think more players, especially casual players, might be attracted to the challenges. Opening a chest or finishing one and getting a bunch of jargon named, inventory hogging parts is not fun for many, no matter the end prize.

    It seems to me that by continually introducing more grind systems on top of the existing ones, you are constantly catering to the *not* casual player. The pendulum in this game seems overly tilted toward high end, high play time players right now. That is not going to attract flocks of casual players as f2p did.

    I believe the House C challenges have a place in the game - whether they fit my playstyle or not, many players do like them and having 'quests' of different stripes is good. IF you want these (or future) challenges to attract a wider audience, I think you have take steps to attract both casual players with less grind, and make some challenges without any grind at all - just loot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psiandron View Post
    First off, I love the cove. It's a fun break from questing and there's some great loot to be had. That said, it's not why I play the game. I like running the quests. That's why I'm here. I really don't mind that the challenges exist (excepting that I do find it a bit irritating that so much development time and resources were spent on them when there are longstanding bugs and issues with the core game). I also am not thrilled at the prospect of carrying around x amount more of twink items and the various and sundry ingredients needed to upgrade them.

    I have run them a few times and I'm sure I'll run them on occassion again. Barring mindcontrol, I really can't see every spending the thinnest dime to have greater or any access to them.

    Hey, you asked.
    Last edited by Hafeal; 01-12-2012 at 11:29 AM.
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  11. #151
    Community Member red_cardinal's Avatar
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    Yes, elementals are impossible. Especially when solo on higher levels. Perhaps a tiny nerf?

  12. #152
    Community Member Nuryam's Avatar
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    The Challenges were introduced as: something short you could do while waiting for your friends. Or quickly in between quests.

    They often take as long as a regular quests. And some of them you can't really solo well (hence you need the friends you were waiting for in the first place). That has stopped me from diving into them headlong. I rather jump on Pug while I wait.

    Do I dislike them? No, they are a nice break from regular quests/raids. And they can be quite funny and challenging. But do they yield enough to repeat them often enough for the items? No.

    The first time you run one and get some stars you get decent XP. Not sure what happens after 3 or 4 runs. And the difficulty can be scaled, meaning there is a wide range at which to play. That's why I saved up all the coins from the daily collector and decided to try more challenges on the next life of my TR. Figured he could use the xp. But with opening all quests on hard and repeating on elite I get so much xp that I do not need the challenges.

    I tried a few and found you are usually best off with a versatile character (that can at least cast or UMD something). DDoor and self-healing/buffing are good to have. Most non-casters find they do not perform too well in challenges. Making them less likely to join/set up groups. I must say I don't see many PUG's either. And if I do, they are level 20+. Not many people in my guild are into them either.

    With the daily token vendor giving out the tokens, why buy the pack at all? Better to buy some universal tokens if anything at all.

    So, recapping...not for items, not for xp, maybe for fun, not many pugs and even less guild organized runs.

    I think the enthusiasm that was felt for CC was due to it being new, fairly easy, limited availability (for 2 weeks every event) and with good items.

    My advice would be: do not change or expand the challenges themselves. Make the items better and just leave them be.

  13. #153
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    Great point, I fully agree with you - actually, to preserve the fun of CC, I think they should have had NO kobolds.

    IF they had a new voice and script of sayings for, say, trogs - many players, including myself, would be there to hear them, even if they were not particularly enamored of the challenges.

    Quote Originally Posted by red_cardinal View Post
    The other remark I might add is that you have overdone on kobolds. Only Rushmore is different, the rest are kobolds. Not really enthusiastic about that. I understand that you hired a good voice actor and stuff - but at least you could've put Troglodytes on the Kobold island instead kobolds :P.
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  14. #154
    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    Overall I like the challenges, but by far the worst part is the inconsistent (and quite broken) dungeon scaling mechanic. Its great that the challenges are solo-friendly, but the scaling on some of them really, REALLY, discourage group play. Which is bad.

    Colossal crystals is the best example of this. With 2 players, you get a reasonable amount of spawns when you pick up the progenitor crystal (about 10 trash mobs and a couple named). If you do the same thing with 6 players, not only do all the mobs have 3 times and much hp and do 3 times as much damage, but you also get 3 times as many... causing an instant orange/red dungeon alert. But of course for some reason the poor kobold with back pain doesn't get his hp scaled up to the same ridiculous levels and can easily get killed if you don't quickly grab agro of everything (which is difficult for casters, and near impossible for melees while fighting in a red alert).

    The biggest problem with this scaling is hp. On epic 25 many named mobs have raid boss level hp and damage output. But of course, you not have a 12 person party to deal with them. Not only that, but half the group is likely busy doing the actual quest objectives (oh right those raid bosses aren't even part of the objectives) so it basically comes down to 2-3 people trying to defeat a raid boss, or more likely one person kiting it all over. Which is not all that fun.

    Solution:
    Keep the current scaling, but turn the challenges into raids. (at least on epic 25) So a 6 person party would be dealing with the current 3-4 person scaling difficulty (which is more reasonable) and the ridiculous raid level scaling that epic 25 currently gives could actually be handled by a raid party. A huge benefit to this would be characters that are not self sufficient would actually be a welcome addition since you could have enough spots to include dedicated healers.


    Also, do this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    -Tweak the 25s to add more incentive to run em over 23 (max loot lvl). Maybe add some epic fragments in the chests, or rare changes at rare ddo-store only items like super ability potions.

    -Fix the leaderboards. People like to compete for score, not arbitrary stars. Let us sort them by either score or stars, and track the highest score for each player, not just the highest score they got on their highest star run.
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  15. #155
    The Hatchery danotmano1998's Avatar
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    While I haven't personally run any of these challenges, I CAN comment on one thing I see:
    Almost NO LFM's for these, ever. I do believe I can count on one hand the total number of PUGS I have seen on Thelanis for any of the challenges.

    That in itself should speak volumes. I don't have access to Turbine's data, obviously. It would seem to me that Turbine should be able to answer that question for themselves as to whether or not they are a success. From what I've seen: epic fail.

    The initial price on these was ridiculous in many eyes, mine included. Heck, I'm VIP and as such got them for free, and was still stunned over the cost. The price excluded almost everyone I run with that is NOT vip. Yeah, yeah, the tokens, right? No thanks. a couple of free tries is not going to entice anyone when the content is weak, buggy, and pretty much a rehash of old content with a new 50 million component crafting system.
    <-Curelite Bottling Company->

    Quote Originally Posted by Chilldude
    Dude, did you see they way that guy just pressed button 1? It was amazing! A display of skill unseen since the 1984 World Games where in the men's room, between events, a man washed his hands with such unbridled majesty that people were claiming the faucet he used was OP.

  16. #156
    Community Member dragons1ayer74's Avatar
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    First I hope we never again see an update that only offers new challenges without the inclusion of new quests.

    Balance
    The balance between different challenges seems way out of wack, some are easier than others and I still am unsure how you are supposed to 5 Star some of the kobold island ones. Also the amount of components varies far too much. Some challenges seem almost too easy to get components, while many seem too hard to get a decent number in a decent amount of time.

    Dungeon Scaling
    Dungeon scaling is terrible on these, some of these are hard or near impossible to do by yourself (character choice makes a big difference, Sufficient Casters rule the roost – melee suffer) then you add some friends and it becomes way worse.

    Rewards
    End Loot: Very Nice (although not so much for level 8 and under) to perhaps too nice.
    Challenge Loot: For the most part sub-par this could use a slight enhancement.
    XP: Good first time, sub-par subsequent times look at bumping subsequent times.
    Guild Renown: Needs more, lots more, every time you complete a challenge that would give you XP you should get a free random guild renown reward.
    Favor: Interesting idea but the balance issue between the challenges makes it frustrating for some.

  17. #157
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    [*]Superlinear scaling with group size. Basically, increasing the number of players raises both the hitpoints of monsters and quantity of monsters, which is rather like doubling your team quadruples the enemy. That is especially bad when there is a deadline and there is a dungeon alert threshold of a number of monsters which is not scaled upward with party size.
    I do think this is a problem.... Note also if you have more mobs active, you're more likely to get dungeon alert, so really doubling your party may equal 8x the mob difficulty (twice as many with twice the hp, with DA).

    This is especially noticable in the Mansion, especially the rooms with elementals... 1-2 elementals when soloing is no problem... 6-12 elementals when with a full group is deadly...
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  18. #158
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    So actually in rushmoor, is you want the best ingredient over time ratio, the best strategy is to ignore all the trash monsters using mass invis, and go straight for the gates and bosses.
    How exactly do you open the gates without killing trash mobs and getting more crests from them?
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  19. #159
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    I play DDO because I enjoy leveling up characters via intricate quests that feature real-time combat and resource management over a sustained period of time. These are the strengths that differentiate DDO from its competitors and are the reason I have little interest in its competitors.

    I found the challenge pack discouraging for several reasons: they're too short, they're too grind-y, their reliance on "beating the clock" inherently disfavors builds I enjoy playing, their heightened need for self-reliance and speed inherently disfavors other builds, and they generally encourage characters to split up rather than stay together. I'm even seeing some of these behavioral trends show up in PUG/guild questing and raiding, to the general detriment of group play. So it isn't a simple matter of "different strokes for different folks," as some people like to say in response to concerns about challenges -- it's an instance where an option I don't like actually worsens my gameplay elsewhere.

    But my biggest concern about challenges is the dev time they consume. It's all well and good to say the devs can continue to produce core content while also doing challenges, but it's an unavoidable reality that the devs have limited time and always will no matter how many new people get added to the team. And as I look at the things that attract me to DDO over its competitors, I can't shake the feeling that reallocating dev time from quests/raids/classes/races to challenges dilutes DDO's key advantages without doing nearly enough to tear the challenge-friendly sort of player away from the MMOs that are specifically designed to serve that niche.

  20. #160
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    Unbreak the disruptor and shortcuts extraction challenges. They are utterly unfun without the ability to invis the things, and just plain annoying and too difficul to run. Yet I actually enjoy kobold chaos.. Main issue is that disruptor and shortcuts are just far too hard for most players, so if I pug a run, all I can expect is a lot of deaths. Decrease the difficult al around, SEVERELY drop the red named (who have freakin 100k hp on lvl20 and 300k+ on 25 hp down to reasonable lvls. No idea why you made these so insane, but made the marilith in the palace so easy, when to begin with, she was already easier.
    I never played the Kobold Island ones when invisibility worked, so I have nothing to compare it to, but they seem pretty easy to me.... It's not that hard to protect the excavators. The red names are a little over the top I agree.

    Air Elementals: Ugh.
    Fix their no save abilitys. I don't care if you set them to a DC40+, just put a freakin save on the knockback and the gust of wind. Doesn't make sense for them to have 2 utterly crazy ability that cripple melee classes so harshly and not casters as much, in the ONE challenge where melee may actually be able to compete with casters (at great difficulty.)
    Yes, make another pass at Air Elementals or use them more sparingly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

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