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  1. #121
    Community Member Sarisa's Avatar
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    I bought the pack when it came out, and have run the challenges a grand total of twice. Aside from Rushmore, I do NOT enjoy them, and doubt I ever will.

    Rushmore isn't really that bad, its strengths and flaws are all described in detail above. It's just inefficient for ingredients when compared to the others. The time it takes is also difficult when the people you run with are all older people with families and other responsibilities.

    Lava Caves and Extraplanar Vault are just rehashes of Crystal Cove. I'm simply burnt out on Cove after the massive grindfest we had recently, and many others I've talk to expressed the same thing. These kobolds seem a LOT squishier than the Cove ones. I wouldn't mind one set of challenges that were Cove-like, but these comprise half the pack. Having no shrine in Extraplanar Vault is also an issue, especially for the dragon challenge.

    Kobold Island comprises the worst aspect of questing, protecting an aggro magnet. Requiring a self sufficient player with high Intim just to get a mob with under half health to finally change target to you from the extractor is crazy.

    I also dislike the old-style epic ward, and the scaling on epic. This I know is made for making it friendlier for solo players, but it's a completely different mechanic from the rest of epic. People who have only done epic challenges (aside from the CR24-25 ones) are not prepared for what happens in real epic quests.

    I also dislike that these quests are the best source of epic tokens in the game, by far. I've heard reports of upwards of 12 tokens per hour, which is way below the best speed you can get in real epic questing (4 in an hour with two consecutive runs of eDA with alts). eDA is way more challenging, and should reward you better (eDA I don't believe drops +3 tomes, high CR epic challenges can).

    The challenge system also destroyed my desire to cap favour, which I had done in update 10, and almost completed in update 11. Some of these challenges are impossible to gold-star due to requiring cash items or simply unbalanced goals. Add on top of it the bug where you don't get your favour rewards if you cross over a boundary by doing the challenges.

    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    Make them strength and dex checks, not saves - similar to a trip check. Melee love.
    The knockdown already is. It's just that the STR required (nobody can get DEX high enough) for high CR eles in Reaver's Fate or Rushmore is so insanely high that only top tier Barbs and Kensai's can reach it.

    Gust of Wind should be a fort save like it is in PnP (however, the PnP version of Gust of Wind and the DDO version have different effects, besides knocking down Halflings).

    The knockback is the obnoxious ability that needs to be adjusted, with extreme prejudice.

  2. #122
    Community Member EnjoyTheJourney's Avatar
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    I've read a few more responses an I realized that there's one more question not asked by MadFloyd, but that the devs would probably like to know about.

    Question: Would I buy another Challenge pack, if another one was put together?
    Answer: Almost certainly not

    I like the current Challenges pack because it's different, and it's different in that it provides something unusual to do in a short (!) period of time, and they can be done solo (ie: no "simultaneous pressure plate" stuff that is an obvious attempt to discourage solo play). The increase in fun associated with another Challenge pack would probably be quite low (already got one, why would I need two?) and for that reason I'd be unlikely to want to purchase another one.
    Last edited by EnjoyTheJourney; 01-12-2012 at 07:25 AM.

  3. #123
    Hero AZgreentea's Avatar
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    I generally dont have a problem with the pack, and I even purchased it when it was on sale. However, there are only two packs in the game that give House C favor. A high level pack, and this one which can be hard to earn favor from. I would like the pack more if earning favor was more straight forward.. Maybe leave the old star system in place, but reward favor based on a CR range. Divide the available CR by 3 (like the current N/H/E system) and if you complete the quest at the CR for Elite you get full favor.
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  4. #124
    Community Member somenewnoob's Avatar
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    I've only run Rushmore, Lava Caves and Extraplanar Mining, so from that perspective:

    Crystal collection......."another one? Really?" . I liked Cove, but not because of the collection, it was kobold voices and GREAT loot that made it worthwhile. Plus the pirate theme was sweet. Using this over and over again feels lazy, and doing the exact same thing in different settings is pretty boring.

    Rushmore wasn't bad.

    In general, I'm not a fan, because they have 2 mechanics I don't like:

    Protect the NPC.......there are just a lot of them to protect. I've never liked htose type quests, I never will. I do it when I have to, but I don't like doing it over and over again.

    Timed quests......in general I dislike time limits. I like to take my time exploring new areas, smash everything, peek into every nook and cranny. You can't really do that in these, it feels more like a rushed zerg. Rushmore could have been a fun multi objective quest, but it's just this rushed cluster eff through the mansion as it is.


    All in all, I think I would rather not see challenges added int he future. And definitely not lazy "cove clone" type things for sure. You should have just turned cove into a permanent challenge area with some minor modifications, and left it at that.

    And one more thing.....STOP WITH NEW INGREDIENTS. Seriously, it's overkill at this point. Enough. I'm completely burnt out on having to collect 500 of this stuff to make this other stuff good.

    One thing I DO LIKE, is that you make progress towards your item every time you run it. I wish more raid loot/spic loot was like this.
    Last edited by somenewnoob; 01-12-2012 at 09:04 AM.

  5. #125
    Community Member falcon2030's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    This topic should prove interesting.

    ...
    I would like to get your thoughts on these - preferably in a constructive manner. I’m specifically interested in gameplay feedback.

    For those who do not enjoy this type of gameplay, can you elaborate on why?

    For those of you who do enjoy playing them, what aspects do you enjoy?

    ...
    For my opinion, I feel that the quest design as far as differentiation from the typical quest packs was a good idea, diversity is always a possitive. With that being said I have a couple big complaints:

    First, as a player of primarily divine characters, I feel that we have been shunned in the loot dept. of these quests. Every savant, wiz, rogue, melee, and arti have loot that seems designed for their types but not one thing in the crafting table for these challenges works well for a divine character. So aside from helping guildies gather their gear for their toon why should I run them?

    Second, and this is with all quest designs throughout the game. One of the reasons I started playing DDO 6 years ago was that the quest seemed to be diversified from the typical "Hack-n-Slash" of other MMO's. Hack-n-Slash is okay in a few quests as it caters to the diversity issue. Now with the revamps and nerfs to out-of-the-box strategies, this game is getting worse to the point where I find myself bored even with new content because it is the same thing as the old, with only the background changed.

    I would love to see more cerebral gameplay and design out of these challenges, but I will not hold my breath.

  6. #126

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    Running challenges before level 20: I won't do it. Even with an optimal group with twinked gear, it's not efficient to run challenges for XP. I'd rather run XP efficient quests with little to no risk rather than bank on trying to 5-star a challenge for 55k XP that may or may not be possible due to the random number generator (mansion crest availability, crystal concentration/placement, etc).

    At level 20, if you don't raid then the loot rewards are fine. If you raid, then there's little reason to do challenges for loot rewards. There are few exceptions, like the level 16 wind bracers for the AC tanks, and perhaps the Tier3 Spare Hand if you're a TWF toon with Improved Sunder, Tier3 Ring of the Stalker and Tier3 Frozen Tunic for monks (in certain circumstances at least). Compared to what's available elsewhere in the game, the challenge weapons really aren't a consideration for raid encounters. The undead weapon is fine for Abbot, but I already have a triple positive Green Steel maul which I've had crafted long before the challenges (and is more useful b/c of the Raise Dead clicky). The dragon weapon is pretty meh, considering other options available.

    Healers have absolutely ZERO reason to run challenges for loot rewards. The Turbine itemization folks really dropped the ball on that. If you want healers to do challenges, then introduce multiple rewards for healers. You can start with a +7 Wisdom item (see thread in my sig regarding +7 WIS items being ignored compared to all other stats).

    Blasting Chime's Weaken Construct doesn't work on Lord of Blades. Really?
    Last edited by Carpone; 01-12-2012 at 08:43 AM.
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  7. #127
    Community Member zeonardo's Avatar
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    Default Challenge not accepted!

    I have all the Adventure Packs/Races/Classes (except Drow for obvious reasons) in the game. All of them with my money without being VIP in any momment. I want to support the game and I like playing it on my free time.

    I didn't buy the challenge pack because there's nothing in there for me.
    I only play Divines. Other classes are just splashes or test builds.
    If I want to play a content just for fun, I play the ones I already have.


    I know some of you will say "and what about this item or that other one, it could fit in if, and only if, you were that one build MrGrog/Shadow posted on the forums and blah blah blah"
    Last edited by zeonardo; 01-12-2012 at 08:44 AM. Reason: names
    I don't care...

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  8. #128
    Uber Completionist luvirini's Avatar
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    Overall:
    Rushmore, really nice: feels different than normal quests so is quite fun. points: 9/10
    Lava caves and extraplanar mining: Bleh, too much like each other and chrystal cove. Points: 4/10
    Kobold island: Pretty much like other protection quests with small rts elements: points: 6/10

    General notes on epic:
    The old style death immune mobs are kind of annoying in the epic versions, for the very same reasons they were immune in normal epics.

    Epic quests that use dungeon scaling, really? really?

    General notes on all:
    The dungeaon scaling is bit overboard overall.

    Too many types of ingredients added.. total ammount of ingredients in the game is just way too high overall.

    Suggestions for new challenges:
    In general they should be something different, meaning things that are different from normal gameplay. Else just make normal quests.

    Some possibilites: (though many of these are limited to some classes, so might not be development priority)
    -A parcour track
    -Direct DPS challenges, Melee, ranged and Spell.
    -Million traps track for rogues and overconfident monks..
    -Underwater swim track, with somethingcausing both warforged and underwater action items to need to surface too.
    -Social skills challenges.

    Some more generic things:
    -Traditional treasure hunt: get some item that can indicate distance to nearest treasure(like: near, quite near, far, very far), but not direction. Having several such treasures hidden in random locations on a map and you would need to go around and use the item(with suitably long cooldown) and get readings, thus occasionally you would get reading from different treasure than the one you got reading for last time..
    -Murder mystery.. closed room, random plot like those board games and then talk to people and such to who is lying and search places to get clues.
    -Catapults. Defend some harbor or such by firing a catapult at approaching ships, with ballistic trajectory and moving ships.

  9. #129
    Community Member zeonardo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    Healers have absolutely ZERO reason to run challenges most contents for loot rewards. The Turbine itemization folks really dropped the ball on that. If you want healers to do challenges play the game and group up, then introduce multiple rewards for healers. You can start with a +7 Wisdom item
    Here.
    Fixed it for you.

    Nice thread btw, Carpone!
    I don't care...

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    It can certainly hurt to be on the receiving end of a nerf

  10. #130
    Community Member MartinusWyllt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vengeance777 View Post
    - Hate the timers. I don't like racing against a timer or being locked into having to set aside a certain amount of time to complete something.
    I agree with this. For some of the challenges a timer makes sense (like time is money). To me the Dr. Rushmore timer does not specifically make sense, nor does it really in some of the mining quests. I'd like to see fewer timer-based failures and more time-based star objectives. This way you're rewarded for doing it fast...and you're obviously being rewarded for ingredients/min, too. I wouldn't mind doing them slower in some challenges, though, just a less frantic pace once in a while.

  11. #131
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BananaHat View Post
    I will say that I completely and utterly hate the Rushmore mansion. Why? The stupid crest doors. Example: First crest door, need 1 monkey. What do me and my wife get before the monkey finally shows up after 5 minutes? About 5 of every single other crest after breaking everything in the area and killing lots of guys (we ran out of time trying to find more monkeys for other doors too). Being held up in a certain area by something so unlucky makes the entire quest entirely too luck based. I do not feel like I am making progress in the quest so much as just getting really lucky and getting the crests I need. Am I worried about the boss difficulty? I wish, I can hardly ever get far enough into the mansion to find them. Even when I did complete, the returns were very poor for the time spent in the mansion. I am probably missing something major about the quest though.

    At this point however, I have decided not to run all Rushmore mansion challenges, I would much rather farm another one of the challenges twice as much than run that horrible challenge.
    This is how I feel too... I LIKE the Rushmore challenge, except for the pure luck of getting the right crests. And the drop rate is way too low, considering I can actually fail this challenge with bad luck... I'd rather just farm the scroll challenge where I never fail, it has a higher drop rate, and turn those in 2:1 for goblets.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by TedSandyman View Post
    Some people brag about how fast they finished the game. I cant think of a stupider thing to brag about. Or in this game, going from level 1 to level 30 in two days, or however long it takes. I can't even begin to imagine what drives a person to think that is fun. You are ignoring all of the content and options and going for sheer speed. It is like going to a museum and bragging about how fast you made it through. Or bragging about how fast you finished a good steak.

  12. #132
    Community Member Avidus's Avatar
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    Ok I read all the posts in this thread and rather than say it again in a slightly different way here are some quotes that capture my feelings on the challenges:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kambuk View Post
    I would like to see the stars give a flat bonus in ingredients at the end.
    <snip>
    At this point as far as replayability goes people are figuring out the best ingredient per min runs, currently this does not involve trying to max stars as well.

    Trying to max the stars out should reduce some of the repetition, and balance a bit the ingredients earned per minute.

    Kambuk
    Quote Originally Posted by lugoman View Post
    I am not a fan of timed quests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Every single epic scorpion, rat, and lion has deathblock. Arbitrary immunity is arbitrary. I understand when drow witchdoctors cast deathward on themselves, but please remove the deathblock snuggies from the animal and vermin mobs that should not have this effect.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dawnsfire View Post
    1) I avoid timed content if I can. The first few times I run a quest I like to loiter and take things in. I don't like to be rushed through stuff.
    <snip>
    And here are some posts that I agree with as well that are just too long to quote all of them fully in one post.

    http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...2&postcount=41

    http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...3&postcount=60

    http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...8&postcount=67

    http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...4&postcount=71

    http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...2&postcount=85

    http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...1&postcount=88

    Basically the price is too high, the loot is buggy, I do not like that all of them are against a clock, completing stars should not be separate from gathering ingredients, the sacling is wonky and out of whack, the payouts are way to drastically different bewteen the various challenges, the xp is poor giving a 'once you have your items why go back again?' feeling to them.

    However I do enjoy the 'making progress every run' aspect of the loot as opposed to I ran this 100 times and never saw what I was looking for lotto system.

    Sorry there wasn't more positive things to say, but that is just how I (and most of my small guild feel about them)
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  13. #133

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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    This topic should prove interesting.

    As you all know, U12 saw the release of a new type of content - Challenges.

    I would like to get your thoughts on these - preferably in a constructive manner. I’m specifically interested in gameplay feedback.

    For those who do not enjoy this type of gameplay, can you elaborate on why?

    For those of you who do enjoy playing them, what aspects do you enjoy?

    General feedback is encouraged, but again, please limit feedback to gameplay and respect other’s opinions. I expect this to be a very polarizing subject.

    Thanks in advance.
    I'm not a fan of challenge type of quests (this include Cove and Mabar as well). I find them boring, repetitive, predictable and rather uninspiring. Additionally, running them while leveling will break your bravery streak, so that makes it a non-starter for people leveling TRs.

    Now, I've watched the LFM panel closely since the release of U12 challenges, and perhaps it's a confirmation bias, but judging by the complete lack of LFMs for challenges at peak hours, I'd say most players feel that way as well.

    So, as for constructive criticism, I would say that, in my humble opinion, time spent designing challenges could be time better spent squashing the plethora of bugs that seem to arise on every update and patch, or adding full-fledged content and quests.
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  14. #134
    Community Member ColsonJade's Avatar
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    My thoughts as I keep an eye on DDO from a galaxy far far away.

    I like the challenges. They are quick, easy and repeatable quests you can do in a short amount of time. Each run, while the plan can be the same, the challenge is just random enough to have every run be different. And you have to make changes on the fly.

    That being said it is only because you put in the ability to get epic tokens from them.

    I have TRed my main 10 times and I don't see them as good xp grind for leveling.

    The U12 gear is cool and adds to the many increases options a player has.

    I like the normal story driven quests most but wouldn't mind seeing more challenges just not the whole update being them. Add one or two per update with at least double the story driven quests.

    My 2 cent

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  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    First thoughts: I didn't like them much at first.

    With experience: These have really grown on me. So much fun to zerg, and they can be really tough (4-starring Lava Caves: Time Is Money solo on 25 was... intense, five of the most fun minutes I've ever had). And you have made some really, really impressive boss fights in them.

    But:

    - They are brutally punishing of toons that are not self sufficient. Many players build characters (stereotypical Barb without Silver Flame pots, etc) to do one thing and do it well. Challenges don't work well for those toons as so much of them is 'Hey Numot, you split off from the group and kill kobolds for parts' or 'Myrmidral, answer that "Incoming"' etc.
    - The scaling encourages metagaming group size around prior knowledge of the challenge. Time is Money I always solo, duo or trio for this reason. Short Cuts I want a full group for.
    - Mob HP is nonsensical on 24/25. A supergeared character (one 25 is designed for) might do 30% more DPS than a modestly geared 18-20 (what 21 is designed for). So mobs should have 30-40% more HP, not 100-300% more. I think the scaling of damage players suffer from 21 to 25 is perfect. As a rule of thumb: If players are kiting mobs rather than killing them, something is wrong. Likewise if the most effective thing a melee can do is UMD Enervation scrolls on mobs, again something is wrong.
    - Mob HP also scales too much with party class makeup. The Cloud Giant in 20 Time is Money seems to have less HP when in a 3-player all melee group than when I've soloed it on a Wizard or Sorc.



    One suggestion: Allow raid groups to attempt challenges (with further scaling). Then instead of sending off 1 character to deal with an 'Incoming' in a 4 player group, we could send two Barbarians AND a Bard or Cleric in an 11 or 12 player group. That lets the 'I do one thing and do it well' builds be useful in challenges. You have solo to raid scaling tech in the Cannith Manufactuary.

    I'm not sure what your intention was re. underlevel (17-19th level) toons in 21-25 challenges. You gave the challenges XP and put a 'soft lockout' of 'you must have a 20 in your group to enter' rather than a raid-timer style 'hard lockout', indicating you want characters to be able to attempt 21-25 challenges pre-20, but getting in to them requires a 20 in group. Can I suggest changing this to a hard lockout of level 1-16 characters, and letting 17-20s in freely (possibly with a warning to 17s, 18s and 19s that 'this is an extreme challenge intended for level 20 characters, you can try it if you dare').


    Another thought: Combat is DDO's strong point. The non-combat mechanics of Challenges effectively remove 1-2 players from combat throughout the challenge. IMO a future Challenge that is *pure combat* against bosses has real potential. For example, think of fighting a toned-down Harry and 3 of his Lieutenants at once - the Lieutenant auras buffing the pit fiend as well. Primary star for killing the Pit Fiend before time expires, and another for killing all three Lieutenants within 30 seconds of each other, then another for killing the Fiend first, then another star for no player deaths, and a final star for not using a rest shrine that is in the arena.
    I agree with everything here...even my own personal experience with the challenges.

    I really enjoy them now although now that I've starred all of them at the best level I'm likely to get solo I've got less reason to run them in down time like I had been - at least until I hit epics on the toon I'm playing a lot right now. I've done the epic versions of these and I have to say that my bard is far more useful there than most of the much better melee dps that I'd grouped with simply because I could split off from the group and survive. You're exactly right - complete self-sufficiency is almost a requirement in here. Still find it amusing that they put my bard on guard an extractor duty in one of the epics and I was falling behind...just couldn't drop the high hp mobs fast enough solo on a pure bard. Didn't panic though...just spent the entire run keeping Fascinate up. By the end I had about 25-30 mobs surrounding my extractor...all with music notes over their head. I think I'd killed 2 of them before I realized, "Why bother?"
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  16. #136
    Community Member Cyr's Avatar
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    What I dislike about challenges...

    • They feel like something someone put together who does not play DDO. Really everything in it feels contrived and mini-gamish. If I wanted to play a mini-game I would play a good one online for free not one inside of DDO.
    • They are one giant money grab. Not a good money grab where a company makes a really solid product and then expects to make lots of money on it, no these seem like they were designed to get the most profit for the least effort with no concerns about the long term health of the game. Huge price tag, recycled content (that is what they are basically recycled content), stuff to make them easier in the store, very low favor reward for the time, making artificers unlock tied to them to frustrate VIPs into buying artificers, poor design and QA letting in devastating exploits, and worse yet huge reward amplification to try and drive sales after all this they were still seen to not make much money short term again drying up long term profits.
    • CC was cute the first three times. After that the only enjoyment I got from it was hearing my guildies do horrible kobold voice overs on TS. Making tons of content that is basically CC redone...yeah that is incredibly lame.
    • Delusional design goal of 'apealing to everyone' made these not great for almost any level range.
    • They actually were fairly lazy design. Lots of re-used stuff. Tons of consequences not thought out leading to tons of changes in waves after release. This was the worst pack released post EU and that says alot because there were alot of mediocre packs released post EU. Only the necro series packs and catacombs are worse in my opinion.
    • Different rules for these dumb things that had to be done differently...epic, nah we are not going to bother making them work like other epics now...xp, nah we are going to give them a completion bonus xp, because that worked out oh so well for you guys...loot, nah we are going to do these chests which appear in your inventory, again that worked out just great didn't it...favor, let's have these give a pitance compared to normal quests and make it dramatically harder to get full favor from them, all because you guys wanted to squeeze people into buying artificers
    So what do I like about challenges?

    • Some interesting items from them.
    • Relatively known completion times for most lets people plan if they have time for them.
    I would say that if the plan is to make more of these, stop it now!

    Make quests and raids. We still need more high end leveling content and at some point you guys are going to have to make a real decision about end game advancement if you want to keep raising the level cap, create some sort of epic xp reward system, or just do loot gating type advancement. The status quo is boring, really boring. Some people are all excited about alchemical weapons, but to me it is like who cares it is incremental improvement to a melee which is not worth the time. It's not a lightning 2 compared to a mediocre loot gen weapon. It can't be because you guys have not figured out what you are doing with end game yet and that decision really needed to be made about a year and a half ago.
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  17. #137
    Community Member bhgiant's Avatar
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    I know it's a little off topic as Mad didn't ask for suggestions on new challenges, but if this challenge were to be created, I would fully support, purchase, and would probably play the heck out of it if it were created. Everyone loves killing mobs, that's why we play DDO and get better lootz.
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  18. #138
    Community Member Valindria's Avatar
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    My only feedback so far: The adventure pack is too expensive.

  19. #139
    Community Member Alaunra2010's Avatar
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    Well, two things. First, I do not like challenges because they break immersion. Clearly they can be fun and interesting, but they do cater to a certain style of play that I do not enjoy. Puzzles and quests that have a literary root in the game's lore are interesting to me. In this respect however, challenges seem very shallow. They do not seem to do anything to perpetuate a meaningful story in the game.

    Or... hmm... perhaps you could take challenges in a different direction than what I'm suggesting. Perhaps it would be interesting to play to the strengths of these challenges, and embrace them for the play style to which they cater: introduce a ladder system listing the top 10 groups whose teams have achieved the highest score for the daily challenge on the maximum difficulty setting. Put up boards in-game that show the top 10 groups from the day before, so that everyone can see the winners. At the end of the day, give these players in the top 10 an account-wide perk that lasts a few game hours. +2% guild renown and XP boost. or +1 stacking bonus to all stats. +1 to all loot. *shrug* I don't know, just a suggestion!

  20. #140
    Community Member barecm's Avatar
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    Mar 2006
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    The challenges are fine. I would not take them away, but I would not get too "challenge happy" either. It is a good permanent feature for those who want to take a break. Adding different types of loot like a quarterstaff would be nice. Did I say add a quarterstaff? I meant to shout ADD A QUARTERSTAFF. The only class that really gets screwed is thief acrobat. Back to the main point. I agree with a lot of folks saying the quests are far and away more fun, but the challenges are nice to have if you need to grind out some ingredients for an item or for trade in for epic tokens or simply run something different. Other than that, there is a limited replayability once you get all the stuff you want. So unless you update items from time to time, eventually the interest will disappear. You may want to look into limited time offer items. So, make an item available for like a weekend or whatever. Something to spike interest from time to time.
    Sarlona Server Mythical:
    Kluege Fixer- Baddabing - Majuscule Kluege - Klueje - Klooj Maker - Dundar Kluege - Superkluege

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