I think something like this, which would be simular to devils assault (but perferably being able to trigger the next wave) would be awesome. Either items could be assigned based off of surviving the wave, or more likely, would be that each wave would provide mobs that were worth more points, and once everyone in the party was dead for 60 seconds, the quest would end, providing end reward items based off of score. (this would be intresting with arty or pets where the party could be dead but their pets were still eeking out those last few points)
My thought? Remove all scaling from adding hirelings to the party. The only time they actually pull their weight to any significant degree other than healing is in lower content and scaling is much less of an issue there anyway so it's not noticed as much. I can't even imagine a reason to have a melee hireling in a higher level group. The mob hp added through scaling is probably more than the hireling's damage output, making it counterproductive to bring him along for what I can only imagine his intended purpose would be, adding damage.
Edit. Ok I did think of a reason to bring a melee hireling along in high level content. In cases where I specifically want more mobs or tougher mobs, such as in extraplanar mining where you need to kill a certain number of mobs for a star objective. In that case, having any dead weight hireling or added party member will help you with that objective so I guess that's one reason.
Last edited by redspecter23; 01-24-2012 at 03:15 PM.
Kaarloe - Degenerate Matter - Argonnessen
Just stung myself doing this. This behavior is pretty unintuitive. Now I have a pair of tier 3 bracers bound to and useless for my caster.
I agree there should be a warning at least.
If the devs want to foster a player attitude of wariness and mistrust towards DDO then this feature should be left as is. I don't know how new players deal with this sort of thing happening to them.
There isn't really a polite way to say this. You completely effed up and dropped the ball with this last update nerfing the rewards.
Less grind is good, but you just increased it. There is very little reason to purchase this pack now. You should have increased the other rewards to bring them more in line with the higher ones, NOT decreased the higher ones.
I'm piking at work.
I disarm traps........with my face!
How do I know that I am better than you are? Because I'm in Thrudh's signature and you're not. That's how.
Sorry Mal, after today's patch your 'goodwill' well with many people just went dry.
Aeolwind (5/12) - 18 Sorc/1 Art | Melisandria - 20 Fighter SD | Anlona - 20 cleric RS
In honor of this thread, I've been playing some Challenges. I've found that on my TR with lots of raid loot and GS weapons, that it's a very pleasant experience. I've especialy enjoyed Extraplanar Mining: The Dragon's Horde. The pacing is great, a few attacks to keep me on my toes but not so many that I can't enjoy running torch lines.
I tried going one above my level (level 14) I got more rewards and the fights were more exciting but the Kobolds seemed to die much quicker. Next I'm going to try guarding the foreman with a hireling so I can focus elsewhere.
I also got my first reward, a pair of level 4 rock boots. I like them alot since they essentialy replace the functionality of my Reflecting Shield.
So I've played nearly all the challenges each many times, going both solo and in a group. From that experience I notice one of the major problems with these is that they simply don't scale well, based on group members.
Going solo 'at level', its nearly impossible in many of the challenges to do anything meaningful to get a reasonable score in the time allotted. Extraplanar palace and lava caves in particular are notorious, as you no more start running torches then 10 seconds later 'Incoming!' and every 15-30 seconds thereafter. For most classes without Dimension Door or a purchased store item, its impossible to both run torches and return to the base to defend it, can't be in both places at once. Therefore I recommend reducing the number of wandering mobs attempting to reach the foreman by at least half, maybe more, specifically for solo runs. The remainder of stationary mobs seeded throughout the map seems appropriate and done well.
In full groups played 'at level', I feel there aren't enough encounters to keep the party busy, and the experience tends to feel a bit easy at times. For this I would recommend increasing the number of encounters slightly (notice the keyword here 'slightly', which btw does not mean double or triple mind you). This will give players something to do during the dead time while waiting for the quest to end.
As for the lich or marilith spawn when you reach the quota, in the extraplanar palace. I'm not entirely sure what the point of this concept is, or why its necessary to have a really tough boss spawn on solo runs, with the sole intent of killing the foreman and wiping out all kobolds above anything else after the player merely reaches their quota. Is there some reason for this event besides someone's twisted sense of humor? The only thing this spawn does is serve to annoy players. This was a bad idea; these bosses need to be removed. No 'surprise spawn' should appear once you achieve your goal.. the idea is to reward players, not punish them.
I may have more to add later after I run some more.
Hey did you guys increase the number of crests that drop in Picture Portal?
I haven't had a failed run in a while now due to missing a crest.
I've had a few doors I couldn't open, but so far I've always been able to make it to at least 1 boss...
And the drop rate on goblets is MUCH better... thank you!
On a related note, can we get an increase to the ingredient drops in Rushmore please? I know it's been asked before, but you spend much more time in there than other challenges. Also making 3 of the bosses ridicuhard for melee (and just plain insanely hard in general) has me scratching my head. Am I missing some obvious way to make these other 3 boss fights much less annoying on higher levels? On level 4 I soloed all the bosses on an at level melee toon. I can't imagine doing that on any epicly geared melee toon at level 20. At least not on a regular basis. The level scaling seems way out of whack. The best way to farm that quest shouldn't be to keep a toon parked at level 14 so they can run it easier because of wonky scaling. If my relative power compared to the mobs actually goes down as I level up, that is hopefully not WAI.
Another edit. How will this work when our max level increases to 25? Will we essentially be cut off from standard ingredient runs (or take a 5 level penalty). Also running at level 25 won't give us any sort of bonus like it does now, but we won't really have the option to run at level 21 anymore either. I don't like the idea of having to park toons on lower levels just so I can get challenge ingredients. It's a minor issue right now with the level 4 challenges, but once cap goes to 25, it becomes a much larger issue.
Last edited by redspecter23; 02-03-2012 at 01:40 PM.
Kaarloe - Degenerate Matter - Argonnessen
Overall I love the challenges. They are (mostly)fun and interesting and really do some things that I have not seen out of many other quests.
One thing that concerns me though is the challenge reward diversity, or really the lack thereof. Some builds and characters see some excellent returns as far as items go, others really receive little to nothing.
In particular I refer to divines, particularly WF FvS followers of the LoB, and tanks. There are no challenge Greatswords, Bastard Swords, or Dwarven Axes. Nor are there any shields for tanks. The system is absolutely fantastic and an expansion on it would be welcome just don't forget about some of those builds that are kind of specific in their needs.
I also rather like the boss spawns. The lich is literally unkillable for low level arcanes, yes, but everything else is workable, and they give a chest (which someday might contain renown), and they provide a tidy increase to score. It's really not a surprise after the first time.The sad fact is the people in charge have no idea what the air elemental experience is like in game.Originally Posted by redspecter23
Also, the cap isn't really going to 25. Instead, the levels will be on another axis: epic levels. If coded properly, it should have no impact whatsoever on any other level-based mechanic in game, including but not limited to ingredient return from challenges.
I'm a F2P Player who finally decided to start using the Challenge Tokens I was stockpiling. Anyhow, the answer your first two questions at the beginning of the thread - with the bonus of attempting to keep them short, concise, and constructive:
For those who do not enjoy this type of gameplay, can you elaborate on why?
One of the biggest problems with the Challenges I find is that they cater to soloists - and this includes Kobold Island (everyone has to split up and solo defend an Extractor). The one exception might be Dr. Rushmore's Mansion since you can slightly get away with everyone traveling in a group.
An additional problem though is that you can't really take anyone in to do a challenge with you. Dr Mushmore's Mansion will scale horribly as you pick up additionally characters, and you really need a Spellcaster to do well. In the Kobold Island, Lava Caves, or Extraplanar Palace, self sufficiency is King; and if you can't take care of yourself then your doomed because no one is going to be around to help you - even though there may be 5 people with you in the challenge.
The Second biggest problem is that some of the challenges aren't easy to understand. Even after running all the challenges now a good 5 or so times, I don't necessarily have a mastered grasp on executing a strategy for any of them. I understand the basics of what to do in them sure, but then I also understand the basics of Chess. Like chess in learning a few moves to checkmate the opponent, I can learn a few ideas on how to farm out a quest to generate a lot of easy Epic Ingredients on a few specific Challenges; but that's a far cry for mastering how to get 5 stars.
Repetition may somewhat help but the fact is I only get so many tokens from the NPC that dispenses them, so I'm more concerned with maximizing my ingredients. Buying the Pack may alleviate that problem but the way I see it - 1495 Turbine Points could get me access to several adventure packs with nice loot, overall favor and favor for a specific faction, potential epic content, and a more enjoyable experience. Additionally, just with the free challenges tokens, I'll eventually get what I want out of the content so that's even more reason to ignore buying Vault of the Artificers.
For those of you who do enjoy playing them, what aspects do you enjoy?
While there is a lot to dislike about Challenges, I do like the concept of having repeatable quests that can be run at anytime for any reason. I also like the idea of it being worthwhile in some way that isn't necessarily overpowered or out of sync with the rest of the game. I can't particularly say I heavily enjoyed the current challenges, but then I don't heavily enjoy favor grinding or farming something either. As long as the rewards are there then getting those rewards is enjoyable in themselves.
Further Thoughts and Opinions
I wish I could say more but really, the current challenges need heavy refinement, and many people have already stated most of what needs to be said. I would add that if you want to sell Vault of the Artificers and really address the two problems I've stated above then a solution is fairly simple:
Make More Challenges, and center them around having a group that focuses more on assisting each other then running off solo. Add those challenges into the Vault of the Artificer so that it might actually become worth the high cost. Finally, make it so that it isn't centered around having specific classes - have it so that you can pick up 5 people to group with and then enter the challenge without fear because you don't have a specific class with you.
Please make all challenges scale to level 20. Please make daily tokens BTA not BTC. Is there a reason to make then BTC? What if, you know, we want to run a challenge on a different character?
Having ALL your tokens BOUND to your main, capped character means that you effectively can't make lower level items as you get a MASSIVELY reduced ing/min ratio as you are forced to run CR15 challenges on a level 20 character, probably solo unless you have some friends willing to help for hours and know they will get next to NOTHING out of it.
There is also no way to trade for these lower level ing, forcing people to grind out these ing at 2-3/min, which SUCKS.
Is this a ploy to get people to buy the pack? Nice try, pretty underhanded...but at 1500 or whatever TP, my monk can go without a lowbie spare hand.
I have a few reasons not to like the challenges that I think Turbine should really think about before implementing a new type of quest.
1. Very few people actually go for the stars. This would not be a problem unless you don't want to put up the cash for arti. I don't think that it is right that Turbine is making VIP's unlock it or pay extra money especially since we will have to pay for an expansion pack soon.
2. I personally do not like the grind of the events (though I still do it for gear) let alone for challenges. Finding a balance between completing stars and the ingredients could solve both of these problems if done right.
3. Do we really need another crafting system? With regular crafting, epic crafting, item upgrade per raid (ie gianthold and necro 4), item upgrades per pack (ie lordsmarch and madness set), and shroud crafting there seems to be little point to doing house c/challenge crafting as well. I realize that for years people have been asking for crafting other than shroud but this has gone a little overboard in my opinion. Why can't we have one or two crafting systems all tied in together?
Until this last week I have refused to do the challenges in hope that Turbine would come to their senses and realize that VIP's should not have to pay for arti. Since that didn't look like it was going to happen, I finally broke down and decided to try to unlock it with favor but that may not happen with the only people doing challenges are those looking for ingredients.
Since my play time has been fragmented recently, I play challenges a lot more than quests/raids nowadays. And here are some of my thoughts:
- There should be a way to convert epic ingredients down to normal ingredients, and a 1:1 rate would seem reasonable. As time has progressed, the majority of Lv20 challenge LFMs are doing them now on epics (CR21 ~ 25), and this has become a hindrance for basic ingredients collecting.
- Over half of Lv20 challenge LFMs are now only doing mining challenges, mostly Extraplanar Mining: Buying Time, since the ingredients/time ratio is the most stellar (powergamers are putting up LFMs advertizing their ratio as 2 ~ 3 epic tokens per 20 minute). Mansion challenges on the other hand have come to be hated for the long play time to complete a single run (30 ~ 45 minutes on average needed for 200 ~ 300 ingredients). Hopefully this issue can be addressed for in some way, otherwise the difficulty of finding a group to obtain some certain ingredients have become a very tough job.
Last edited by balancetraveller; 02-11-2012 at 11:29 AM.
This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.Reload