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  1. #241
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    The design intent was to offer something not only different, but re-playable and more strategic. Many quests merely require the player to get from point A to point B; challenges were designed to give the player agency to form a plan and have some degree of control over not just success but the degree of success.




    No, no, yes, and no.
    Thanks for the response, and for keeping up with the thread.

    It's hard to make this segue, but I am very concerned that the developers weren't aware of the first two issues. They have been brought up on the forums many times, at least one thread has been started regarding each, and a Turbine person has commented in at least one of those threads. It makes me very concerned that this information did not reach you.

    There has to be a better way for Turbine to access the information that is common knowledge to the player base than you personally keeping up with a 12+ page thread. My recommendation is that for every release of new content, the devs release an exhaustively detailed set of release notes describing how they believe the content works. As we saw recently, players will absolutely point it out if a release note does not accurately describe what is happening in game. It's unlikely for any one player to exhaustively test every part of a new release, especially if they don't know what has been changed, but if you harness every player put together you have an incredible resource.

    I recognize that is no easy task to comprehensively describe new content, but the challenges have been out for two months and you are just now learning things about them. Devoting more effort to documentation and if necessary slowing down the release schedule is absolutely worth not repeating this. I'm assuming that's not your call to make, but whatever pressures you can bring to bear against whoever does make the call would be greatly appreciated.

  2. #242
    The Hatchery Rinnaldo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Thank you. Love the whip idea.
    Awesome. Thanks, MadFloyd!

  3. #243
    Community Member barryman5000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Tons of valuable feedback here; thank you.
    Dearleader has a trend of valuable feedback. Kudos to him again. Hit alot of things I didn't remember to type.

  4. #244
    Community Member parvo's Avatar
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    I don't like challenges. Challenges were a wasted dev cycle for me and my guild. I asked my guild for feedback on whether to include them and got almost none. What I did get was negative. It is the one and only DDO element that I disallowed from MV that didn't get a single argument from our members. Not one member argued to keep them. I tried one myself on a non-PD character and was not impressed. The one I tried was a DDO version of an RTS (real time strategy). Now, I love me some RTS. Back in the day, I played a lot of Age of Empires, and Command and Conquer. (I once relived myself in an empty soda bottle to avoid what would have been a guild match defeating AFK.) RTS is great when the opponent is a human. RTS is great when that is the expectation. But this is Dungeons and Dragons. There is no reason to turn DDO into RTS. It simply doesn't meet the expectation players have. You originally marketed DDO as Real Combat, Real Danger, Real D&D (with an initially successful subscription model I might add). Challenges are none of those things.
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  5. #245
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    What I like about the challenges.

    ** Something different than the typically dungeon crawl. It's more "gamey" feeling than the typical "Save the princess/mayor/town, Kill the Bad guy, adventure type things.

    ** They are quick paced, with little downtime.

    ** The rewards are great once you added Epic Dungeon Tokens, Guild Renown/Xp/Slayer boost potions, allowing for wanting to do them numerous times.


    What I don't like about the challenges.

    ** To little variance from Crystal Cove. If you are going to add more, completely step away from Crystal Cove and do other things, similar to Kobold Island and Dr. Rushmoors mansion.

    ** The pack cost was excessive, I think 900-1100 (when not on sale) would have been more appropriate.

    ** Random elements that can dictate failure/completion is annoying to no end.

    ** Malandis? The lich in Extraplanar palace is still way to annoying, not that he's deadly, it's that he has to many immunities, to many hps, undead, and everything else. If your a solo caster that is spec'd for Ice/Cold, your going to hate it every time he spawns. On my wizard, I have found the only way I can kill him is to use a Mournload weapon, put up GH, Haste, Rage and then use Tensers Transformation and spend 5 minutes meleeing him down. Thats annoying as heck. For some reason Disintegrate always "misses" him, Sunburst never hits either, and I can't seem to figure out why.

    ** More loot type chests (they don't even have to be max loot level for the instance) for some of the more stingy type quests. It's very possible to run some of those instances 10 times and get 1-2 supply chests, which basically means your losing money for repairs/potion/hireling and whatever other costs.

    ** Any thing where a DDO Store purchase is needed to 5 star (ahem Kobold island turret requisitions) is a VERY VERY bad idea

    ** I'd like to see more weapon types added to the groups of Mournload/Elemental weapons and so forth, Dwarven Axes, Quarterstaves, Longswords etc etc. And they should be included for ALL the types, not just Rapier Mournload or Khopesh Elemental, you should be able to get each type in each weapon, and this will definitely increase peoples desire to do them.


    Overall, I want to see more challenges, but I would like to see different things. Some ideas would be...

    *** Tackling the Droaam Army - Similar to how at the end of Assault on Summerfield near the Koranoo River, DM text states "It would be suicide to take on the whole army head on"

    Challenge level 15-25, Epic included. No time limit. The object is to kill as many Droaam Soldiers/Chiefs and so forth as possible, before dying or having to run. No rest shrines, no rez shrines. Only what you can bring with you. Star objectives based on # of kills, # of Generals/Leaders, maybe # of War tents destroyed (and please don't make fire spells necessary to destroy them, maybe have explosive barrels next to them).

    *** Destruction Derby - Similar to Blown to Bits, but the object is to destroy as much of a target location as possible. Just like the one above, no time limit, no shrines, just how far can you go? How much can you destroy?


    *** Run for your lives! - How about an adventure thats not based on killing or destroying, but instead, staying alive? The farther you can get, the higher the star rating.


    Edit: Remembered a couple other things I disliked.
    Last edited by Ruphus; 01-12-2012 at 08:18 PM.

  6. #246
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    Reformating my thoughts to make them easier to follow, etc.


    The Good:

    * Epic content that can be run by level 18 characters that feel they are up to it, and that awards XP. 'Old' epics should get this tech of '20s can open, non-20s can come along'.
    * If you like zerging, high CR challenges are serious zergfests.
    * Really varied difficulty. Pretty much any group *can* beat most challenges on 21 given a few tries. But high-star runs on 25 are really tough.
    * The boss fights. Most of them are quite different from the old style 'surround and pound' fights.
    * Caster AI. The caster mobs are nasty, and they have been given spells that really hurt.

    The Bad/Ugly:

    * Lots of them require splitting the party. This is punishing of a lot of character archetypes - if you aren't self-sufficient, you are at a BIG disadvantage. While a raid group could send away 2-3 people to deal with an extractor being attacked, 6 player (or smaller) groups usually can only spare one person.
    * The scaling encourages you to choose group size around prior knowledge of the challenge. Time is Money I always solo, duo or trio for this reason. Short Cuts I want a full group for. I don't like this sort of metagaming.
    * Mob HP is nonsensical on 24/25. A supergeared character (one 25 is designed for) might do 30% more DPS than a modestly geared 18-20 (what 21 is designed for). So mobs should have 30-50% more HP, not 100-300% more. As a rule of thumb: If players are kiting mobs/bosses rather than killing them, something is wrong.
    * Mob HP also scales too much with party class makeup. The Cloud Giant in 20 Time is Money seems to have less HP when in a 3-player all melee group than when I've soloed it on a Wizard or Sorc.
    * Star objectives that require sabotaging your score (keep the Entropic Giant Skele alive five minutes, etc) cause an annoying tension in PUGs. I had this happen recently in a 20 Lava Caves: Time is Money where we decided on the fly to sabotage our score to achieve a six-star run, but two of the five of us already had that achievement down and would have preferred to get another 100 crystals instead.
    * It's been said before, I'll say it again: The star objectives that cannot be completed without requisitions need to go.
    * Some way to END CHALLENGES EARLY if everyone agrees would be great. I'm an impatient person, and sitting dead solo in Rushmore 23 with two bosses dead, an OK score, and six minutes on the clock is annoying.
    * The barter boxes are too cluttered because there's just so many things available at each one. I'd rather have all the consumables (including epic tokens) removed to a separate vendor, and all of the ingredient swaps moved to a new vendor. Search helps a lot if you know what you want, but if you are browsing them, the search feature isn't useful. Oh and the prices for non-EDT consumables are silly - 300 ingredients - one-sixth of a high quality item - for 2d6 Greater Essences or a small number of Fire Resist 20 potions?

    Suggestions:
    1) Let players bring raid groups into Challenges if they want (with further scaling). Solves the 'self-sufficiency' issue as you can split the group in more different ways.
    2) Add an 'End this challenge early' button that each player may press ONCE per challenge. If EVERY PLAYER in the instance hits it, the timer is set to one second immediately.
    3) Reassess material drop rates. Rushmore and Kobold Island could do with a 25-60% boost. The five minute kobold ones might even warrant a nerf.
    4) Remove Deathblock from the weakest 30% of mobs in 21-25.
    5) Mob HP should scale less from 17 to 20 and 21 to 25. 23 is a 'sweet spot' IMO - 24/25 should be 8/16% higher, not whatever they are now. I don't mind boss HP scaling higher than this.
    Last edited by sirgog; 01-12-2012 at 11:43 PM.
    I don't have a zerging problem.

    I'm zerging. That's YOUR problem.

  7. #247
    Community Member Vormaerin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinerd View Post
    Thanks for the response, and for keeping up with the thread.

    It's hard to make this segue, but I am very concerned that the developers weren't aware of the first two issues.
    To be fair, "MadFloyd" not being aware of something is not the same thing as "the Devs" not being aware of something. If MF isn't the guy doing bugfixes for challenges, the memo may not go to him.

    Still, it would be nice to have a better "known issues" feature.

  8. #248
    Community Member fco-karatekid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    ...For those who do not enjoy this type of gameplay, can you elaborate on why?
    ...
    I don't want to play a casual game (and by that I mean the recent trend of everything being angry birds - see gamasutra for further elaboration).

    I think the reason I got SOOO ticked off at these things was we introduced this out of character play style at a time when bugs hit critical mass and so many unfinished things COULD have instead been the focus.

  9. #249
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    Default my picks

    my picks:


    make challenge minimul level: 4 8 12 16 20

    if i need material x to craft ml 8 gear, i dont want a challenge that can be played only if you level 10 or more

    challenge should last between 5min or 10min or 15min (this way one could pick a challenge taking in consideration how much time wants to spend.)

    getting a star objective should be humanly possible (and without ddo store item needed) so... rework those stars who arent "earnable"

  10. #250
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    I'm still making my way through the thread, but I don't think you're alone here. I think the lack of being able to get lucky and 'get it on this run' is a negative, compounded by the fact that it's a long haul to get your first reward.
    A possible solution to the two differing opinions on this, that has been brought up before in regards to epic loot, is to have a small chance of dropping completed items.

    Maybe you have a small chance of opening an Epic Frozen Tunic (maybe base, maybe partially or fully upgraded). The chance should be low, but simply adding that into the mix would likely satisfy everyone. The pieces can be used for things besides making items, so even people grinding away to make something and then pulling what they were after will still have something to show for that effort.
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  11. #251
    Community Member decease's Avatar
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    brought these a while ago.. the downside is they all being the same.. well rougly.. would be nice if there are something unique in each series... instead of old stuff in different map repeating X times..

  12. #252
    Community Member Feithlin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    I'm still making my way through the thread, but I don't think you're alone here. I think the lack of being able to get lucky and 'get it on this run' is a negative, compounded by the fact that it's a long haul to get your first reward.
    Personally, I hate randomness and much prefer something you see advancing. Or if it is random, you should be able to get it after a fixed number of attempts (like 20th raid rewards, even I would really like if all the raid's named items were on the list, but that's another story).
    Thelanis: Nassim* (F12/P6/M2) - Talienor** (P18/Ra2) - Feithlin** (F12/Bd7/C1) - Stoneoak* (F12/M6/P2) - Hokusai (M17/F2/C1) - Ardence* (Bd15/F3/Ro2) - Matsushiro* (Ro11/M6/P3) | Argonessen: Luneargent (W18/Ro2) - Talienor (Ro20) - Takshir (Bd16/F2/Ro2) - Hiacynthe (C20) | Ghallanda: A bunch of pre DDO Unlimited characters (field of testing for post U19 )

  13. #253
    Community Member azrael4h's Avatar
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    1 - I did not buy the pack, because 1500 tp is insane. So I've not tried all of them, in fact only a couple using tokens.

    2 - Protection quests = fail. Look at how full the LFM is for Threnal parties. Or even some of the better designed ones, like Small Problem.

    3 - Timed quests = fail. Look at how many LFMs are up for those few timed quests in the game.

    4 - XP sucks. Really, that low xp for any timed quest? Any protection quest? A TIMED PROTECTION QUEST!!! Not happening.

    5 - Loot is situational at best for most items, far too much of a grind to make worthwhile.

    So all told, a over-priced pack featuring heavy in the two worst mechanics in the game combined with poor xp and poor loot that requires excessive grinding for means they're not worth running, nor purchasing.

    Now, the concept of a level-adjustable quest pack is a good idea. Leaderboards are meh, since that's just pointless epeen waving, but giving players the option to try for more "stars" on completion rather than just once on elite and done is a good idea. Try these out on some real quests instead.
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  14. #254
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    I want to give some feedback from a different point of view. I have mostly attempted challenges on low (level 4) and a medium (level 11) characters. It is very hard at these levels getting players to group for them, so I end up doing them solo with a hireling.

    I feel the cost of the gear at the vendor for low and medium levels is too high. The level 4 items cost 400 of part A and 400 of part B. After failing the initial run of each instance figuring out what to do, I got somewhere around 100 parts per run on my level 4. So after several hours of play, I ended up with about half of what I needed for one level 4 weapon.

    The costs are much worse at medium levels when the small upgrades become available. It is 1200 parts for level 8 and 12 items. 1200 more to upgrade it once, and another 1200 to upgrade it to tier 3. If somehow, my level 11 could make 200 per run every run, it would still be 18 runs to make one tier 3 item. This is in no way likely, as on some of the mining maps you get unlucky and end up with hardly any purple crystals and have to start over.

    My suggestion is to lower the costs of the low and medium level items, especially the t2 and t3 upgrade costs.

  15. #255
    Community Member Vormaerin's Avatar
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    I don't like the kobold herding ones. I'm not fond of escort type gameplay in general. So I just run the others more often and pay the conversion costs. I'd rather run Kobold Island 4 times as often then do Lava caves, especially solo.

  16. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rinnaldo View Post
    • Inventory space is a major hassle in some challenges. Because you need to have a clear space for teleporters, cannon construction kits, torches, 8+ different kinds of crests - and also largely because your inventory is constantly taking on more and more supply chests that don't stack - having 1 or 2 blank spaces free is almost a non-starter. In Rushmore, I try to have at least 8 spaces free, and that just sucks to clear out. It might be nice if there were some sort of "challenge space" for challenge-only items like torches, or else some kinds of challenge bags, although having yet another kind of bag would make me die a little inside, I think. Anyway, lack of inventory space. Major hassle. Point made, I hope.
    About that -- I'm currently Premium, and because I've been collecting Challenges tokens for the day when I'll feel like having a big Challenges spree, I currently have one entire inventory tab on my main containing these things only (except for two item slots) -- this is EXTREMELY annoying -- and that's not even including the space I'd need for the Challenges quest items....

    So not just +1 ; but +5 to this suggestion about freeing up inventory from being cluttered with all of this junk !!!

  17. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by Natashaelle View Post
    About that -- I'm currently Premium, and because I've been collecting Challenges tokens for the day when I'll feel like having a big Challenges spree, I currently have one entire inventory tab on my main containing these things only (except for two item slots) -- this is EXTREMELY annoying -- and that's not even including the space I'd need for the Challenges quest items....
    If you'd bought the pack you wouldn't have to carry all those things... the financial incentive isn't for WB to change this.

  18. #258
    Community Member Artos_Fabril's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    If you'd bought the pack you wouldn't have to carry all those things... the financial incentive isn't for WB to change this.
    Except that there is still an incentive to collect and use these for VIPs and people who bought the pack, in that they can get you temporary buffs, or challenge buff items and things like parts, kobolds, torches, etc.

  19. #259
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    I didn't buy this pack with challenges, because it is way too expensive to buy the "cat in the sack", like we germans say.
    I have no idea what these challenges are about and i don't like to pay such a huge amount of turbine points just to try it.

    It would be nice if at least one of these challenges could be done without cost, or if the really expensive package would be made into some smaller packs, so that i can try if these are something that i'd like to do.

    bye
    hewi

  20. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by hewimeddel View Post
    It would be nice if at least one of these challenges could be done without cost
    You already can do one without cost; and it changes everyday so you can eventually do them all.

    "Get the milk for free" as the English say.

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