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  1. #201

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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post

    No, no, yes, and no.
    Guild reknown will be nice to have in chests but not a game breaker. The others though are some of the worst parts of challenges I think. Equality in time/reward is a big factor for me. Getting the same amount of rewards out of a 30-40 min rushmore run as I do out of a 5 min buying time run is pretty bad.

    Kobold island star objectives need an overhaul. Look at the leaderboards for most of these and see how many stars people are getting. It's not many.
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  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    No, no, yes, and no.
    In regards to mathematically impossible, I believe Disruptor (for almost certain) and perhaps Kobold Island are mathematically impossible to 5/6 star.

  3. #203
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    No, no, yes, and no.
    I'm glad you reading our comments! Many thanks for these threads...
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  4. #204
    Founder & Build Synthesis Battlehawke's Avatar
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    To me the Challenges just don't have the AD&D feel. They are clearly worth the rewards and you almost "have" to do them if you want to keep your toons up to speed. I actually do enjoy them but sometimes get caught up in the Marathon, just to get back in and restart. They are a fun break, and I personally think they should remain in the game, but should be kept to a minimum.

    I'm not sure of the decline of players on Gallahanda, but I think it is a combination of things.
    1) STOR. My guild lost about 30 players to this game. I can only imagine the impact game-wide.
    2) HOLIDAYS. Clearly a lot of people just haven't had tine to play, or have new "distracting" toys.
    3) CHALLENGES. In a full pug these seem much harder to score higher on. I can solo on my caster with much better results. I think a TON of people are solo'ing these and not doing the typical Quests/LFM's, thus another contributor to the decline of LFM's. Once. Once everyone finally gets all the gear they want this will improve....
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  5. #205
    Developer MadFloyd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vazok1 View Post
    call me old fashioned but I prefer the 'will I get it, will I not' approach of % based drop rates on completed items rather than knowing I MUST do 10 runs of this to get the item. I know its odd but I am more likely to run it 50 times if I have a chance to get the item EVERY run, even the first. I like the mystery rather than the, 'I am going to run this xx times and I will do it here, here and here then I wont run it again as there is nothing left from it for me'.
    I'm still making my way through the thread, but I don't think you're alone here. I think the lack of being able to get lucky and 'get it on this run' is a negative, compounded by the fact that it's a long haul to get your first reward.
    The kobold cannot be marked as junk because it cannot be sold. You can destroy it by dragging and dropping it outside your inventory.

  6. #206
    Developer MadFloyd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rinnaldo View Post
    I love the challenges, but I agree there's a lot of room for improvement.

    I read many good suggestions so far, but here are some of my own:


    • I have about 46 favor from getting stars in challenges with my level 20. I set the goal for myself to try and get the first 50 favor from them - as I do not own the other Cannith content - and I feel like 1 favor per star is too low. If it were even just 2 favor per star, gaining them would feel much more worthwhile. Alternately, if you could select or have a randomized list of new star objectives for some challenges, that would increase replayability, in my opinion. (Example: Let's say I've gotten all 5 stars on Rushmore's Mansion: Picture Portals, next time I enter, I get the option of selecting newly unlocked star objectives, which could be harder or simply different than the previous 4 optionals - main goal will remain the same. Maybe these new stars are worth 2 favor each.)
    • Inventory space is a major hassle in some challenges. Because you need to have a clear space for teleporters, cannon construction kits, torches, 8+ different kinds of crests - and also largely because your inventory is constantly taking on more and more supply chests that don't stack - having 1 or 2 blank spaces free is almost a non-starter. In Rushmore, I try to have at least 8 spaces free, and that just sucks to clear out. It might be nice if there were some sort of "challenge space" for challenge-only items like torches, or else some kinds of challenge bags, although having yet another kind of bag would make me die a little inside, I think. Anyway, lack of inventory space. Major hassle. Point made, I hope.
    • The ingredients and equipment you can buy with them are a great carrot. Even if I've done a challenge many times and don't "need" the ingredients from it (right now), I still am quite willing to run it with a group for others who might need it not only because I like the challenges, but also because you can readily convert them and trade them between characters on your account. Nice job with these! For those who don't see any reason to gain ingredients after you have what you want, aside from epic tokens, there are XP potions. (Lower % than others and shorter duration, I know, but still pretty cool.)
    • More variety amongst the challenges would be great! I mean both within the same map and between challenges. Or, wildly different goals on the same map for different levels could be very fun. (Example: What if, on one version of lava caves or extra-planar mining, the PCs were trying to STOP the kobolds (who had all the super-speed and stoneskin buffs, etc. That would be a neat twist on the same dungeon. Especially if the NPCs like the rakshasa, etc. were still trying to kill you or accomplish some other goal themselves. Maybe you'd get optionals for fewer crystals collected, and ultimately try to kill off all the teleporting, stealthy, super-speeded, displaced kobolds. Or even just screwing up their torch lines and sending them off a cliff or into the dragon's lair.)
    • Might be fun to have a couple even shorter ones - 5 minute timers with no need/ability to extend time.
    • In general, I like the way the timers work in all challenges now. However, I'd like it if the random extended-time buffs I've seen only rarely were more common in some challenges (I've only seen it in Rushmore, whereas, it might be nice to have this on Kobold Island.). Furthermore, other ways to extend time by one or two minutes here and there would be fun. (Example: New, rare, yellow crystals for kobolds to gather that did nothing for crystal count, but added between 15 seconds and 1 minute to the timer - depending on whether they were just kinda rare, or really, really rare. Heck, you could even have evil, time-draining crystals that might entice naive kobolds that you'd have to avoid. That'd be pretty darn evil, though.)
    • Just a note on difficulty: With my (admittedly, non-optimized) level 20, I can solo Epic Extra-planar Mining: Buying Time at level 21, even though I die a lot, and usually end up dead or continually re-using the center resurrection shrine by the end. And I can usually do this while getting about 3 stars. Conversely, I can't do Kobold Chaos anywhere near level, solo. With a hireling and his high-level summons for guard duty, I can eek out a completion (1 or 2 stars, rarely 3) at ~6 levels lower (if I'm lucky). Certainly at 10 levels lower. Either way, the scores you get when you're that far below level are abysmal and the ingredient rewards are almost non-existent. It was fun to try these (Kobold Island challenges) solo at first, but it is not fun to play them solo now. Similarly oddly, I have found it much easier to solo Colossal Crystals with a level 12 character than to do it with a group at that level, or any higher level group, either. This might be due to scaling of the NPCs when more PCs are in the party. It seems a little over-balanced, I guess. I'm not saying they were in any way designed to be done solo, but the soloing difficulty difference between challenges that I point out may be interesting for some to think about.
    • Two-way teleporters are fun. More challenges involving them would be fun.
    • The price of the pack was too high. I only bought it after it went on sale for 30% off, and still thought that that was a little too high. Future add-ons to challenges should be priced lower. 100-150 TP per kind of challenge would make sense to me. So, for example, if you come out with 2 new kinds of challenges (with 3 variations on each, and 2 epics for each), 200-300 TP for that add-on would be reasonable. 1200 would not. See what I'm getting at?
    • I thought of this during Crystal Cove, but here goes: Please start selling taskmaster whips in the DDO store that are only usable in challenges. Different colored whip could do different things, but the main idea is that you target a kobold and activate the whip, and all it does is MAKE the KOBOLD TURN AROUND (180 degrees). These could be one-shot items or multi-use. A pink one could maybe make the kobolds jump a certain height. A blue one might tell the kobold to skip the next torch and continue on in the same direction they're facing for a few seconds. Endless possibilities here.

    In general, good, well-thought-out work on the challenges. Thanks for the ability to be a part of the discussion.
    Thank you. Love the whip idea.
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  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auran82 View Post
    It would be awesome if any BTA ingredients could go into an account accessible UI pane, so any character on the account could use them from there. Ingredient tetris is just not fun or interesting in any way at all.
    Oh wow, YES! This would be amazing. There must be ways to make it continue to pay by granting access based on bag purchase on a char or something (perhaps number of withdrawals/deposits per day limited for smaller, free bags or something so still some incentive to buy).

    I'm sure a dev could do this better but wow, I'd love this. Micromanaging increasing numbers of ingredients is tedious in the extreme.

  8. #208
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    I'm still making my way through the thread, but I don't think you're alone here. I think the lack of being able to get lucky and 'get it on this run' is a negative, compounded by the fact that it's a long haul to get your first reward.
    Whoa... careful... he may not be alone, but I don't think he's the majority....

    I am on the opposite side of the field... I absolutely HATE random drop grinding... I would a thousand times rather have a goal where I slowly make progress. Having a chance to pull an item on my first run does not interest me when it comes with a corresponding chance to NOT have the item even after 100 runs...

    My favorite grinds are where you are always making progress to your goal. Shroud, Crystal Cove, these challenges... I always feel like I'm making progress..

    Raids are a decent combination of random, and progress... You have a chance to get the item randomly, but even if you don't you're still making progress towards that 20th list...

    I HATED Reaver's Refuge when I could grind for a WEEK and be ZERO percent closer to my goal... I quit running that grind... If the whole game was like that I would quit immediately. Epic is only tolerable to me because I need tokens... I dislike the random drop nature of epics, but at least after a night of running epics with zero seals or shards, at least I've made progress on my next augment slot.

    I may not be the majority either, but I guarentee there are some of us who love making slow and steady progress and who hate 100% random drops.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  9. #209
    Community Member Avidus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    I'm still making my way through the thread, but I don't think you're alone here. I think the lack of being able to get lucky and 'get it on this run' is a negative, compounded by the fact that it's a long haul to get your first reward.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Whoa... careful... he may not be alone, but I don't think he's the majority....
    <snip>
    I may not be the majority either, but I guarentee there are some of us who love making slow and steady progress and who hate 100% random drops.
    ^^this and everything else in Thrudhs post.

    As someone who has not, in almost 6 years of playing, ever hit the lotto and pulled anything worth half a damn in my first run of anything I have to disagree. Would I like being able to get what I am after in one run, sure I would.
    Are the odds of that even remotely in my favor? No they aren't. Therefore I like the make steady progress approach to loot. This way I know I will eventually get my item. How many times have we seen the thread 100+ runs of <insert quest/raid here> and still no <coveted Item>. For example see this thread

    Now if you can just add some of the items to the loot drops in the various challenges so that the gamblers can 'hit the lotto' with out feeling that you need to lower the ingredient drop rate we will have reached the so called win-win.
    Last edited by Avidus; 01-12-2012 at 04:06 PM.
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  10. #210
    Community Member ferd's Avatar
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    ;; Removed comments as they were negative. And I shouldnt be negative about something I dont know much of.
    Last edited by ferd; 01-16-2012 at 01:06 PM.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    "I like pie. Pie is delicious." "You know, cake is better", and a sudden nerf gun war breaks out because Pie is supreme. Then someone says, "What about dinner?"

  11. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Whoa... careful... he may not be alone, but I don't think he's the majority....

    I am on the opposite side of the field... I absolutely HATE random drop grinding... I would a thousand times rather have a goal where I slowly make progress. Having a chance to pull an item on my first run does not interest me when it comes with a corresponding chance to NOT have the item even after 100 runs...

    My favorite grinds are where you are always making progress to your goal. Shroud, Crystal Cove, these challenges... I always feel like I'm making progress..

    Raids are a decent combination of random, and progress... You have a chance to get the item randomly, but even if you don't you're still making progress towards that 20th list...

    I HATED Reaver's Refuge when I could grind for a WEEK and be ZERO percent closer to my goal... I quit running that grind... If the whole game was like that I would quit immediately. Epic is only tolerable to me because I need tokens... I dislike the random drop nature of epics, but at least after a night of running epics with zero seals or shards, at least I've made progress on my next augment slot.

    I may not be the majority either, but I guarentee there are some of us who love making slow and steady progress and who hate 100% random drops.

    10000000% agree i'd rather have an attainable goal 80+ tod runs and counting and still no shintao ring
    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Fernando has yet to even suggest a nerf of anything.
    Oh and by the way (referring to your sig), we aren't nerfing the Torc.

  12. #212
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Whoa... careful... he may not be alone, but I don't think he's the majority....

    I am on the opposite side of the field... I absolutely HATE random drop grinding... I would a thousand times rather have a goal where I slowly make progress. Having a chance to pull an item on my first run does not interest me when it comes with a corresponding chance to NOT have the item even after 100 runs...

    My favorite grinds are where you are always making progress to your goal. Shroud, Crystal Cove, these challenges... I always feel like I'm making progress..

    Raids are a decent combination of random, and progress... You have a chance to get the item randomly, but even if you don't you're still making progress towards that 20th list...

    I HATED Reaver's Refuge when I could grind for a WEEK and be ZERO percent closer to my goal... I quit running that grind... If the whole game was like that I would quit immediately. Epic is only tolerable to me because I need tokens... I dislike the random drop nature of epics, but at least after a night of running epics with zero seals or shards, at least I've made progress on my next augment slot.

    I may not be the majority either, but I guarentee there are some of us who love making slow and steady progress and who hate 100% random drops.
    Yeah I much prefer Challenge reward systems to randomness, despite having some quite impressive luck lately (2 Tharne's Goggles dropping for me in 4 runs of VOD)

    I've given up on ever making Desert epics other than raid items, because there is no progress - after 100+ runs of the dungeons out there, I'm no closer than I was when I started.

    Challenges, OTOH - I know that 8 good runs or 20 poor runs will get me an item or an upgrade of it.



    Edit: Collecting 600/600/600 could seem overwhelming to people that find the challenges very, very difficult. Not sure that is any different, however, to completing 20 TOD runs.
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  13. #213

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    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    Yeah I much prefer Challenge reward systems to randomness, despite having some quite impressive luck lately (2 Tharne's Goggles dropping for me in 4 runs of VOD)

    I've given up on ever making Desert epics other than raid items, because there is no progress - after 100+ runs of the dungeons out there, I'm no closer than I was when I started.

    Challenges, OTOH - I know that 8 good runs or 20 poor runs will get me an item or an upgrade of it.



    Edit: Collecting 600/600/600 could seem overwhelming to people that find the challenges very, very difficult. Not sure that is any different, however, to completing 20 TOD runs.
    It's much more frustrating to run 100 vods to get your goggles then it is rewarding to pull a litany on your first ever abbot. I'd keep challenges as is there's enough lotto ticket pull items in the game for people that prefer that type of thing.

    I could see a lowering of first tier item costs (especially at lower levels) to smaller amounts. I can imagine a new player hit's level 4 and finds out he needs 1200 total items to get some gear. On his first challenge he doesn't do so well and gets 75 ingredients for 20 min of work. I can see that being a bit disheartening.

    This is also moreso of a reason i dislike all the lev 4 challenges being extremely long. It takes an extremely long time for a newer player to get it done and if they don't do well or worse not even complete it certainly doesn't make them wanna hop right back in. Whereas the shorter challenges are more inducive to lets get back in there and try and do better. I think the longer ones should have been relegated to later levels with some pretty tough objectives that would take most of that time but give them good rewards to boot.
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  14. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    One more thing I'd suggest. Currently getting items from the Challenges takes a fair number of runs. Maybe make 'tier 0' items that are really quite low quality versions of the real items, but that can be attained quickly.

    As an example, the 'tier 0' Epic Elemental Greataxe of Fire might just have the augmented base damage and the Greater Incineration from the 20/t1 axe, but nothing else.
    Also a great idea. This would alleviate the loot-is-too-far-off element I described for some, if they felt the drop in loot quality worth the fewer runs.

    What I was getting at earlier in the thread was that, with Cove, even a failed run netted gems that could be traded for doubloons or spent on clickies, or whatever. Mabar also had a sense of progress without needing to do the full dragon bit if you didn't happen to be on when the doors were open. With the static challenges there doesn't feel like there's an intermediate reward, especially if you don't hit objectives.

    As others have said, the timer is not that attractive for those of us who have to afk a lot. I think this exacerbates the above for some. I don't know if I'm just regurgitating received wisdom here but it feels like DDO has a more mature player base, generally, than most other MMOs I've tried. With greater age usually comes greater responsibility and that translates into need for afks for most of the players I know, or shorter available play times.

  15. #215
    Founder Riggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Whoa... careful... he may not be alone, but I don't think he's the majority....

    I am on the opposite side of the field... I absolutely HATE random drop grinding... I would a thousand times rather have a goal where I slowly make progress. Having a chance to pull an item on my first run does not interest me when it comes with a corresponding chance to NOT have the item even after 100 runs...

    My favorite grinds are where you are always making progress to your goal. Shroud, Crystal Cove, these challenges... I always feel like I'm making progress..

    Raids are a decent combination of random, and progress... You have a chance to get the item randomly, but even if you don't you're still making progress towards that 20th list...

    I HATED Reaver's Refuge when I could grind for a WEEK and be ZERO percent closer to my goal... I quit running that grind... If the whole game was like that I would quit immediately. Epic is only tolerable to me because I need tokens... I dislike the random drop nature of epics, but at least after a night of running epics with zero seals or shards, at least I've made progress on my next augment slot.

    I may not be the majority either, but I guarentee there are some of us who love making slow and steady progress and who hate 100% random drops.
    yeah +1 as well.

    Most everyone I know hates, hates, hates the random grind.

    The fact that some challenges are pretty annoying to run, and the wide discrepancy in rewards for time, and the whack scaling keep a lot of people from running them.

    Moar two way teleporter - in fact ALL teleporters should be two way. Otherwise 'soloing on my caster' is basically the default setting because dimension door is so bloody valuable in these quests.

  16. #216
    Community Member Auran82's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    The design intent was to offer something not only different, but re-playable and more strategic. Many quests merely require the player to get from point A to point B; challenges were designed to give the player agency to form a plan and have some degree of control over not just success but the degree of success.
    I'm not totally sure whether that design intent really comes through, most of the challenges are more "Learn to do it the most efficient way or why bother". Other than semi randomness of part drops/crystal placement/crest drops they are more or less always the same. Having them all being times immediately pushes away one segment of the players who hates timed quests (not really a fan personally).

    Regarding the random drop Vs Cove style rewards, it would be nice if there was some chance of completed BTA base items dropping, as well as having the ingredients to work toward what you want, hell, make the rare drops BTA on equip.

    And please, please, please, please do something about the insane number of ingredients that are being dumped on us, what really scares me, is that in the future, when we see more challenge quests being relased, it will mean even more different ingredients being dumped on us. I know it might be hard now with ingredient bags being sold in the store, but the few times I did run challenges (with free tokens) I did so on the one character, initially because the ingredients were BTC, and now with them being BTA, I'm not sure I trust the shared bank enough to put any bags in it, so I would need to drag them out of the bags one at a time.

    Regarding bags, are there any plans to add more real categories to them instead of having everything sitting under misc?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jkm View Post
    [*]Instakill Spells - The lich annoys me to no end with his spamming of finger of death. Once again, 10th level barbarian -> how am I supposed to keep him from fingering me AND the kobolds?
    You: Wear a deathblock item.
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  18. #218
    Community Member Auran82's Avatar
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    Oh yeah, last 2 points.

    Standardise (between challenges) or advise the player in game so they have some idea what reward they can expect at the end of the challenge. CC was great, get X extra crystals, multiply by bonus multiplier, there you go.

    Consider the price of the pack, I obviously don't have access to sales figures, but I can't be the only person who has not bought it out of principle even though I have enough points to buy it. I don't want to give the impression that I am happy with that kind of pricing going forward, this is from someone who owns every single pack other than the challenge pack (even 3BC, which I have not visited in what, 3 years or more)

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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    I'm still making my way through the thread, but I don't think you're alone here. I think the lack of being able to get lucky and 'get it on this run' is a negative, compounded by the fact that it's a long haul to get your first reward.
    On the flip side, I've seen several threads where people comment that they prefer making gradual, measurable progress over trying to farm a rare item. It's demoralizing to run a quest 20 times and still have nothing to show for it.

    I was able to get my first challenge item (L12 Spare Hand) after about 6 runs (3 types of challenges, about twice each). To me, the excitement wasn't in "will I get the item?" but in "how many widgets can I earn in one run?".
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  20. #220
    Community Member BladeTricks's Avatar
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    Keep in mind my experience with the challenges has mostly been at lvl 20-21 with a WF Sorcerer.

    The Good:

    + Love the range of abilities enemy spellcasters use. Sphere of Dancing, PW:Stun, Wail, FoD, etc. That's awesome. I love the fact that they can punish you quickly if you did not come prepared. As I said, I mostly experienced lvl 20-21 gameplay, but if you made spellcasters use level-appropriate spells all the way from level 5 to 25 challenges, then big kudos!

    + Every run, I feel like I'm getting somewhere. Be it ingreds for items, ingreds for epic tokens, favor, XP, etc. Much of the rest of DDO is based on a lottery system, so it's nice to have something that's a complete opposite.

    + Challenge tokens are still worthwhile for VIPs and pack owners because of the small boosts they can give. Getting a couple free torches or a kobold for example is a nice touch.

    The Bad:

    - The return of the Epic Ward. I have nothing against enemy divines casting Death Ward on themselves and their buddies, or certain types of creatures being naturally immune, but otherwise, the blanket immunity needs to go, the same way you removed it from regular epic quests. It seems to come from the fact that you borrowed the Crystal Cove code for the House C challenges, but now is the time for a revisit.

    - Kobold pathing. Kobolds not being able to follow the torch path because of terrain is INFURIATING!! Remember, these are all time-sensitive challenges, I don't want to spend one minute trying various torch placements until the kobolds can finally find their way down a slope or whatever the case may be.

    - These challenges are made to be fast and furious, I don't want to spend 20 minutes to fill then 10 minutes inside the challenge playing. I put the blame squarely on the price point because it is such an easy target. :P No way I would buy the pack if I was not VIP. Probably should be about half price. As is it, I'm sure most people that have not pulled the trigger are happy to skate by with just the free tokens.

    - Scaling with party size. Look, I understand there's a lot of tweaking going on behind the scenes, as you need to keep it equally challenging for party size 1 to 6 and from challenge level 5 to 25. Things are still out of whack. Some challenges are extremely hard solo, while others are extremely hard with a full party (but easy solo).
    ~ Crate & Barrel Smashing, LLC ~
    ~Hydrode~ Sorc18/Pal2/Epic5 - Oaked FvS20/Epic5 - ~Guttts~ Bbn 5


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