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  1. #3901
    Community Member Cyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waterboytkd View Post
    How would you deal with stacking issues? One of the things the devs said very early in this thread is they want to remove any weird stacking rules, and just make it so everything stacks. If you have unlimited tree access, how do you deal with that? Especially considering it looks like every tree will have (at least) 2 ability score increasing enhancements. What about toughness enhancements?

    You could say "then don't let them stack", but that would lead to unintuitive non-stacking issues again. It's easy to say "Kensai Strength and Ravagen Strength don't stack" but how easy is it to say "Kensai Chosen Weapon Attack Bonus and Assassin Knife Attack Bonus don't stack"? Non-stacking is most likely going to lead to either a blanket effect that actually restricts some build possibilities (like a dagger using Kensai Assassin), or it's going to be riddled with exceptions, which is the exact opposite of the intent.
    I have outlined already in thread how this sort of stacking could be handled, but this thread is so massive that it is buried somewhere in it.

    Basically like enhancements WOULD stack, BUT the amont of tiers still available to purchase would reduce on all trees when you purchased it from one. Tooltips would state which enhancements are 'overlapping' or 'count as the same enhancement'.

    So basically you would puchase "Str Bonus: Class Based" from the Kensai tree which has a tooltip saying 0/3 before purchase and 1/3 after purchase. You would then look at the SD tree and see "Str Bonus: Class Based" which had a 0/3 listed would now list 0/2. The points spent on that enhancement would count towards the kensai tree since you bought it from that tree. Later you might buy the next step from the SD tree.

    The assumption here is that tiers will have flat progressions based upon the indications given by the develops, but if some retain an increasing cost then the tiers purchased later would cost more points and count towards more points on the appropriate tree they are purchased from...

    For example, let's say that str bonus costs 2/4/6 AP based upon the tier purchased. You would then have two points spent in the kensai tree for the first tier you purchased and if you bought the second tier from the SD tree you would have 4 points purchased in that tree.

    As for Kensai Weapon attack bonus and a proposed assasin knife attack bonus...let them stack. Really specific weapon choice bonuses will presumably be limited in application to one specific PrE tree or be part of the kensai tree. That is unlike something like 'str bonus' which would presumably be in alot of PrE trees.
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  2. #3902
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    I think that while its not necessarily a bad idea it's likely the wrong direction. Now removing the level gating on the other hand is a terrible idea as much as it SEEMS like a good idea for multiclassers it actually favor 18/1/1 builds and discourages single-classes and deeper multi-classes.
    I'd just like to comment on the idea of 18/1/1 making out like bandits without class level gating, because the relaxing of class level gating for Tree Tiers and Enhancement Tiers was something I championed a long ways back in this thread.

    In order for an 18/1/1 to really take "advantage" of no class level gating, it would have to take at least 1 tree from each of its two splashes. Let's consider an example: the split is 18 ranger/1 rogue/1 monk (your classic exploiter build). If they took Tempest (ranger), Assassin (rogue), and Ninja Spy (monk), it would be possible for them to end up with a total of 6 PrE Bonus Enhancements, as they could only get them from Tempest.

    Consider that against a single-class Ranger 20. They could get up to 13 PrE Bonuses (6 + capstone from, say, Tempest, 6 from Deepwood Sniper). Or compare that to a an 18 ranger/1 rogue/1 monk who took Tempest, Deepwood Sniper, and Assassin--this build could get 12 PrE Bonuses (6 from Tempest, 6 from Deepwood Sniper).

    And, of course, there's AP limits. If you go for the level 18 PrE Bonuses in two trees, that's A LOT of your AP. If you only go for one, you have a lot more AP to spend how you please (which seems to benefit splashes). But this second notion is just as good for deep multis as splash multis, if not better, because a deep multi can pick up PrE Bonuses from his low to medium dedication to a tree. And it's the same for single-classes--if they only go for broke in one tree, they get quite a few points to pick the best enhancements out of their other two trees, and that might actually get them PrE Bonuses while they're at it.

    This would only benefit 18/1/1 builds over other builds if the PrE Bonuses are meh. If the PrE Bonuses are really stong, then taking a tree from a splash class is a trade with serious drawbacks, especially if you do it for two (or more) of your trees. Even a 12/6/2 build (or any of the new splits, if the PrE Bonus breaks are at 3/6/9/12/15/18) has some considering to do with its trees. Do you take a tree in the 6 or 2 class, knowing you get less or no PrE Bonuses? Say you had a 12 Fighter/6 Ranger/2 Monk dps build. You want Kensai and Tempest, but what do you take for your third tree? A monk tree?

    Truthfully, this no level gating for Tree Tiers and Enhancement Tiers lives or dies by the potency of the PrE Bonuses, just like the whole multi-class vs single-class thing (at least for non-monk melees) lives or dies by the potency of the capstones.

  3. #3903
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waterboytkd View Post
    Stuff
    So basically what your saying is no level gating can have 2 outcomes

    1 - Non-PrE enhancements are so powerful its worth splashing 1 level & losing a Tree/PrE to get them in which case removing the level gating is a bad idea

    2 - Non-PrE enhancements are NOT powerful enough to be worth splashing 1 level & losing a Tree/PrE to get access to them in which cause the removal of level gating is mostly pointless

    So it will either be a bad thing or make no difference...yeah I'm still in the it's a dumb idea camp.

    Also it seems you accidentely made a good case for why the 3 Tree limit is bad.

    The only two limiting factors should be Level Gating (which can be reduced by 1 or 2 if its your favored class) and Availible AP.
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 03-12-2012 at 04:32 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  4. #3904
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post

    The only two limiting factors should be Level Gating (which can be reduced by 1 or 2 if its your favored class) and Availible AP.
    I could see Favored Class enhancements being available for MC characters to effectively gain further access to certain class enhancements (PrEs and the like)

    ie Elf is FC Wizard
    an Elven Wizard 12/ Fighter 8 would count as wizard 14 fighter 8 for purposes of Enhancements available.

    Additionally an Elven Favored Class Enhancement could increase the level by 1 per tier of the enhancement.

    Of course this would only work with MC builds to allow more Enhancement flexibility and not to allow faster Enhancement acquisition.

    Other Enhancements would be available to further the Pure Favored Class (similar to the Elven Arcanum etc lines.

    I'd say you'd have to actually splash a level of the class to actually open those benefits of the MC lines however. No picking up fighter haste 1 without being a fighter.

    Humans and Half-elves may not have an initial FC but would be able to pick up an enhancement line for a class they have.

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  5. #3905
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waterboytkd View Post
    How would you deal with stacking issues? One of the things the devs said very early in this thread is they want to remove any weird stacking rules, and just make it so everything stacks. If you have unlimited tree access, how do you deal with that? Especially considering it looks like every tree will have (at least) 2 ability score increasing enhancements. What about toughness enhancements?

    You could say "then don't let them stack", but that would lead to unintuitive non-stacking issues again. It's easy to say "Kensai Strength and Ravagen Strength don't stack" but how easy is it to say "Kensai Chosen Weapon Attack Bonus and Assassin Knife Attack Bonus don't stack"? Non-stacking is most likely going to lead to either a blanket effect that actually restricts some build possibilities (like a dagger using Kensai Assassin), or it's going to be riddled with exceptions, which is the exact opposite of the intent.
    If people are going to stack up all the str or all the dex from an entire class they have to pay points to do so. The fact that you only have X points to spend is already a balancing factor. If you do that, you are forfeiting something else in trade for a few points of a specific stat.

    The other way to do it is to have a generic class tree that has all of the stat and skill based stuff, so that all three class trees dont have those. Someone could be rogue and ranger and stack dex, but cant just do it from all 3 rogue trees. This also eliminates casters from being able to multi-stack int without multiclassing in order to do so.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  6. #3906
    Community Member MissMoogle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by decease View Post
    i wish they reduce the requirement of class level from 6,12,18 to 4,12,16.. for now it is not very wise to multi class.. hopefully something can be changed..
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Interesting idea.
    ^ this
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  7. #3907
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    If people are going to stack up all the str or all the dex from an entire class they have to pay points to do so. The fact that you only have X points to spend is already a balancing factor. If you do that, you are forfeiting something else in trade for a few points of a specific stat.

    The other way to do it is to have a generic class tree that has all of the stat and skill based stuff, so that all three class trees dont have those. Someone could be rogue and ranger and stack dex, but cant just do it from all 3 rogue trees. This also eliminates casters from being able to multi-stack int without multiclassing in order to do so.
    I dunno I think it would make more sense to give stats the same treatment as skills.

    Ie. Instead of Barb StrI/II/III, Fighter StrI/II/III,etc. change it to Mighty Strength I/II/II...add it to the genral tab with the pre-req being the relevant level in one of the associated Classes or Races (Refering to Racial PrEs...Racial Str, Dex,etc. would still be in the racial tab).

    Same thing should be applied with monk stances, favored enemy, spell damage lines, skill bumps, etc. than only things SPECIFIC to the PrEs would be in the PrE trees...about 60 AP per tree and they would be golden (also remove tree limit of course) If needed they could even have the general tab use a different points system so you don't have to worry about "siphoning" the points spent into the PrEs somehow.

    Sidebnote: Rename Action points to Augmentation Points...makes much more sense :P
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 03-12-2012 at 06:48 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  8. #3908
    Community Member WurmBurned's Avatar
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    I haven’t been keeping up with every post in this thread, but I remember it being mentioned earlier that improved fortification was being turned into an enhancement line. I’ve spent a lot of time playing a melee focused warforged and would prefer to see the new line and healers friend re-worked to look something like this:


    Warforged Juggernaut

    tier-1 positive energy healing is 10% less effective, gain an extra15% fortification, and repair spells are 10% more effective.

    tier-2 healing spells are 20% less effective, gain an extra 35% fortification, and repair spells are 25% more effective

    tier-3 healing spells are 35% less effective, gain an extra 55% fortification, and repair spells are 45% more effective

    tier-4 immune to healing spells, gain an extra 75% fortification, and repair spells are now 80% more effective.


    Reforged Self

    tier-1 resistance to positive energy healing spells is decreased by 10%, lose 5% fortification.

    tier-2 resistance to healing spells is decreased by 20%, lose 10% fornication, repair spells are 10% less effective.

    tier-3 resistance to healing spells is decreased by 30%, lose 15% fortification, repair spells are 30% less effective.

    tier-4 resistance to healing spells is decreased by 40%, repair spells are 50% less effective.

    The idea is that these would cost 1 AP per tier and warforged could reach 100% base healing when wearing a blood docent in exchange for losing their fortification bonus.
    Last edited by WurmBurned; 03-12-2012 at 07:08 PM.

  9. #3909
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    With the new racial/class enhancement lines if you ask the questions...
    -what is the best melee race/class combo
    -what is the best arcane race/class combo
    -what is the best divine race/class combo... and so on

    and if there are obvious answers to any of these questions then the devs will have failed.

    There's a lot of crazy builds, diversity, and tradeoffs in DDO right now and they need to keep it that way (well with the exception of arcane... 20 PM human/drow wiz anybody?).

  10. #3910
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WurmBurned View Post
    I haven’t been keeping up with every post in this thread, but I remember it being mentioned earlier that improved fortification was being turned into an enhancement line. I’ve spent a lot of time playing a melee focused warforged and would prefer to see the new line and healers friend re-worked to look something like this:


    Warforged Juggernaut

    tier-1 positive energy healing is 10% less effective, gain an extra15% fortification, and repair spells are 10% more effective.

    tier-2 healing spells are 20% less effective, gain an extra 35% fortification, and repair spells are 25% more effective

    tier-3 healing spells are 35% less effective, gain an extra 55% fortification, and repair spells are 45% more effective

    tier-4 immune to healing spells, gain an extra 75% fortification, and repair spells are now 80% more effective.


    Reforged Self

    tier-1 resistance to positive energy healing spells is decreased by 10%, lose 5% fortification.

    tier-2 resistance to healing spells is decreased by 20%, lose 10% fornication, repair spells are 10% less effective.

    tier-3 resistance to healing spells is decreased by 30%, lose 15% fortification, repair spells are 30% less effective.

    tier-4 resistance to healing spells is decreased by 40%, repair spells are 50% less effective.

    The idea is that these would cost 1 AP per tier and warforged could reach 100% base healing when wearing a blood docent in exchange for losing their fortification bonus.
    I disagree with this...I have no problem with the ideas for the lines but these should be WF Racial PrEs NOT so random line in their Race Tree.

    Also Juggernaut vs. Reforged should not be ONLY a matter of Repair Amp+More Fort vs. Heal Amp+Less Fort. Juggernaut should get some sort of charge ability with extra effects getting added with each tier and Reforged should get some other bonus as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  11. #3911
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    Default Eldrich night PRE

    Found an interesting post by Caervas (source http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=215551).

    Was basically a Caster with high BAB (15).

    Two things I like about this PRE are

    1) High BAB arcane/melee caster with a different focus than say warchanter, Artificer variants or Purple Dragon (or at least what I suppose will be Purple Dragon anyway)

    2) Some say pure, but the OP suggested it would be a multiclass PRE, and to be honest I like the idea of multiclass pres. If were going down the 3 tree limit path, then we might as well give different incentives to multiclassing to the point of making them equivalent to pure builds (and yes that also means balanced :P)

    Dunno if anyone else likes it, but in anycase I hope to see more interest in multiclass pres. Perhaps not in concrete examples but how this would/could turn out. For example:

    * capstones?
    * How would it fit in the new UI?
    * What do devs think about the idea of leaving this door opened ?
    * What possible niches are we looking to fill?

    Im not suggesting going overboard but maybe including this posiblity when considering trees and such. That way the foundations for these new PREs would be here and could probably see some of them in the near future (maybe U15 maybe later, but U15 would be nice)


    On an entirely different note, I like the pay extra for stuff that you shouldnt have access to idea : say 2* for one tier aobe that which you qualify for, 3* for 2 and maybe say 10*(or more) for a capstone you missed; thus making multis completely either jack of all trades or specialized builds by means of AP cost/feat requirements alone...

    But since were getting access to most of the trees anyway (save the really good stuff) I dont see this catching on at all, and thats probably for the best.

    Cheers

  12. #3912
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aldured View Post
    comment about hybrid PrEs
    I actually mentioned this earlier in the thread a few times

    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Thats why I think they should add in "Hybrid" PrEs to give a place to PrEs that don't fit with just one class..Eldritch Knight require levels in both an arcane and martial class...Sacred Fist requires Monk + Cleric...etc. It would add something unique to deep splashes which at this point is needed since the new system from what we know will heavily favor Single Class/Light Splash builds.

    Here's a quick example using Swiftblade (and using the Tempest Template)

    The Requirements:

    Tier 1 Bonus: Arcane1/Martial1 Character Level 3
    Tier 2 Bonus: Arcane2/Martial2 CL 6
    Tier 3 Bonus: Arcane4/Martial4 CL 9
    Tier 4 Bonus: Arcane5/Martial5 CL 12
    Tier 5 Bonus: Arcane6/Martial6 CL 15
    Tier 6 Bonus: Arcane7/Martial7 CL 18
    Capstone: Arcane10/Martial10 CL 20

    Note: This means a Arcane18/Martial2 would only have access to tier 2

    The "Free Bonuses"

    5 Points Spent: Gain Spring Attack
    10 Points Spent: Swiftblade I, 10% Blur Effect, +1 AC, To-Hit & Reflex Save
    15 Points Spent: Haste Lasts 50% Longer
    20 Points Spent: Swiftblade II, 20% Blur Effect, +2 AC, To-Hit & Reflex Save, All Hits deal an extra 1d6 Untyped Damage
    25 Points Spent: Haste Lasts 100% Longer & Cannot be Dispelled
    30 Points Spent: Swiftblade III, 30% Blur Effect, +4 AC, To-Hit & Reflex Save, All Hits deal an extra 2d6 Untyped Damage
    41 Points Spent: Perpetual Celerity - When any Haste effect is on you it lasts until Rest/Death

    The PrE Tree itself would likely have a bunch of movement related things like increased run speed, immunity to knockdown, freedom of movement, balance, jump, tumble,etc. also some way to increase BAB...only while hasted of course
    Here's a few Hybrids I thought would be cool for various reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    A few other Examples:

    Swiftblade: Any Arcane + Martial (Note: Alot of SB abilities require "Haste" to function)

    Pirate Captain: Warchanter + Purple Dragon Knight

    Sacred Fist: Cleric + Monk

    Arcane Trickster: Rogue Mechanic + Wizard

    Eldritch Knight: Arcane + Martial (maybe limited to Elves)

    Daggerspell Mage: Rogue Assassin + Wizard

    Bone Knight: Palemaster + Paladin

    ?????: Arty Master Maker + Rogue Mechanic (This just NEEDS a Hybrid PrE...it just feels right.)

    Corrupt Avenger: Acolyte of the Skin + Divine Avenger

    Fist of the Forest: Druid + Monk
    I'd like to reiterate that a Rogue Mech + Arty Master Maker Hybrid PrE !!MUST!! be made...Self-Forged could be an option..with bonuses to fort and ability to be repair (with some heal amp penalties of course), the ability to utilize docents (as well as any other armor their proficient in), possibly some immunities, Con Bonus, etc.
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 06-01-2012 at 04:24 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  13. #3913
    Community Member airavon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    I actually mentioned this earlier in the thread a few times



    Here's a few Hybrids I thought would be cool for various reasons.



    I'd like to reinterate that a Rouge Mech + Arty Master Maker Hybrid PrE !!MUST!! be made...Self-Forged could be an option..with bonuses to fort and ability to be repair (with some heal amp penalties of course), the ability to utilize docents (as well as any other armor their proficient in), possiblym some immunities, Con Bonus, etc.
    I agree completely. Hybrid PrEs are an amazing idea. Here's my idea on how they would work in the UI, since I think someone mentioned that.

    There would be a button at the bottom, labeled:
    Enable Hybrid PrEs
    That would make Hybrid PrEs appear in the general tab. There would be too many for them to be their by default, because they would clutter things up too much.

    If this is implemented, I'm so making an Elven Wizard PM Bladesinger PDK/Kensai Eldritch Knight.
    Madness....YESZ! THIS! IS! XORIAT!

  14. #3914
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by airavon View Post
    I agree completely. Hybrid PrEs are an amazing idea. Here's my idea on how they would work in the UI, since I think someone mentioned that.

    There would be a button at the bottom, labeled:
    Enable Hybrid PrEs
    That would make Hybrid PrEs appear in the general tab. There would be too many for them to be their by default, because they would clutter things up too much.

    If this is implemented, I'm so making an Elven Wizard PM Bladesinger PDK/Kensai Eldritch Knight.
    I think (assuming 3 Tree limit) the best way would be the first 2 PrEs must fulfill the prerequisite of the Hybrid PrE...ie. PrE 1 (Mechanic) + PrE 2 (Master Maker) Unlocks Self-Forged in the 3rd PrE slot if you wish.

    This also works if you remove the Tree limit but keep the PrE limit at 3 (IOW you can spend AP in as many Tree's as you want but only get the "free bonuses" in your chosen three ie. Mech + MM = SF.)

    In you Elven Wizards case you would be a PM/PDK/Bladesinger or a Elven PM/Kensai/E-Knight or something like that
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 03-12-2012 at 08:17 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  15. #3915
    Community Member airavon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    I think (assuming 3 Tree limit) the best way would be the first 2 PrEs must fulfill the prerequisite of the Hybrid PrE...ie. PrE 1 (Mechanic) + PrE 2 (Master Maker) Unlocks Self-Forged in the 3rd PrE slot if you wish.

    This also works if you remove the Tree limit but keep the PrE limit at 3 (IOW you can spend AP in as many Tree's as you want but only get the "free bonuses" in your chosen three ie. Mech + MM = SF.)

    In you Elven Wizards case you would be a PM/PDK/Bladesinger or a Elven PM/Kensai/E-Knight or something like that
    That's what I was thinking for the Pre-reqs, someone asked how the Hybrid PrEs would fit in UI, and I was answering that.
    Madness....YESZ! THIS! IS! XORIAT!

  16. #3916
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by airavon View Post
    That's what I was thinking for the Pre-reqs, someone asked how the Hybrid PrEs would fit in UI, and I was answering that.
    Same way you select the rest of the PrEs.

    3 Tree Limit = Select from a drop down menu...you only see PrEs your eligible for.

    No Limit = Any Tree you have access to it displayed along the right side of the UI similar to spell levels each with its own unique Icon. Clicking a tab shows you it's tree...each tab also has a check box and you can select up to three once you've selected two a new tab may appear if you qualify for a Hybrid PrE...going to that tab shows any available...selecting one of those will cause the "Hybrid Icon" to become the Icon for that specific Hybrid PrE

    Similar to this Except replace familiar with "Hybrid"...familiar,construct, etc. and Racial will actually be their own tabs at the top and it will actually be its own UI (as opposed to being part of the character sheet) which will allow for future additions by adding tabs along the top just like the Character sheet.



    Side-note: I think it would be cool if each race has a variable enhancement line based on their sub race (ie. Dwarf could choose Gold Dwarf, Shield Dwarf, Duergar,etc. or Drow could choose Lloth or Vulkoor)
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 03-16-2012 at 06:29 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  17. #3917
    Community Member WurmBurned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    I disagree with this...I have no problem with the ideas for the lines but these should be WF Racial PrEs NOT so random line in their Race Tree.

    Also Juggernaut vs. Reforged should not be ONLY a matter of Repair Amp+More Fort vs. Heal Amp+Less Fort. Juggernaut should get some sort of charge ability with extra effects getting added with each tier and Reforged should get some other bonus as well.
    PREs function more like class archetypes than true prestige classes at this point and I doubt we’ll get full racial PREs the way things are looking now. Either way, they could always add enhancements that hook into these at a later time.

    I’m not sure how well bullrush would work in DDO, but an AOE knockdown could fit the theme and a passive thorn-guard could be in-line with the PRC as well.

    Maybe the reforged line could grant access to stacking wisdom or charisma enhancements? I’m not as familiar with that one.

    Honestly, I don’t care what the lines are called. I just want better healing.

  18. #3918
    Community Member Ziindarax's Avatar
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    Default Dev response wanted....

    Quote Originally Posted by kingfisher View Post
    i find it funny that this basic question about the sudden need for a 3 tree limit has been asked at least a hundred times in this thread withuot a single response as to why. do the devs not understand the question? or maybe they dont understand why its a big deal? this 3 tree limit is a break from how DDO has been for its entire life. Char gen options has always been one of the best things about DDO, and its one of the most striking differeneces between DDO and other MMO's. how can you not answer this question, beyond the whole 'make it easier for new players' buyll**** that is.

    enough with the 'hmmmm' and 'interesting idea' and 'still reading!' posts from the devs, come on. in the immortal words of wyatt earp - if you have come to a fight, get busy fighting or get the hell outta the way.
    This. Considering a number of us have shelled out money for the expansion pack (including the Collector edition), I think we have the right to know what the deal is in relation to the sudden need of a three tree limit.

    Why do we need a three-tree limit? Why not keep the number of trees unlimited, and simply organize the display a bit?
    Ziind Stargazer - Level 12 fighter/6 Barbarian/2 rogue Half-Orc (Neutral Good) - Formerly a level 20 Paladin Human - Orien

    Fernian Summer Carnival

  19. #3919
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    What I would like to see is to have 10/10 dual class splits viable - which means having Tier 2 PrE at level 10 instead of 12. Maybe having 4 tiers, at levels 5,10,15,20 instead, would provide clear advantage to level 20 pure class and still provide incentives for dual classing.

  20. #3920
    Community Member Artos_Fabril's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    I think (assuming 3 Tree limit) the best way would be the first 2 PrEs must fulfill the prerequisite of the Hybrid PrE.
    Why would you need to lock in all three trees for one hybrid PrE?

    Although I like the general idea, I disagree with basically everything you mentioned for implementation.
    1) Hybrid Trees should not be less restrictive on level splits than pure class trees. (1/1, 3/3, ... 10/10)
    --7/7/6 and 13/7 are not "pure hybrids" so they should not get capstone benefit, nor should a 14/6 get a tier 3(6) PrE. there still have to be tradeoffs.
    2) Locking in 3 PrEs just to get the one you want? Terribad.
    --With the new system, you already change out trees with a dropdown, put the hybrid trees on the dropdown.
    ----If the system doesn't support this readily, put a 0 point "unlock" enhancement for each hybrid PrE in the qualifying classes' general tabs.
    3) Caster hybrids need to be capable of becoming viable casters, either by PrE granted benefits or by selected enhancements within the tree.
    --This means high value spell pen and DC lines, or enhancements that count the other class's levels for purposes of spell pen and raise the cap on heighten, possibly by granting higher level spells or spell slots. (See my ideas earlier in the thread on Mystic Theurge.)

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