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  1. #3101
    Community Member Meat-Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BruceTheHoon View Post
    It is commendable od Turbine employees to kep following this thread, but for me (and I can only assume that for many other people too), it's gotten TL;DR some time ago.

    Anyway, my point is, that silence of many here doesn't necessarily mean agreement.
    I implore Trubine employees to take that under consideration when sieving for ideas.
    I (and again, I can only assume that many more) am waiting for some feedback from Turbine - not just acknowledgement - before giving feedback again.


    Uh.. You're NOT the only one. I followed it closely for about the first 2500 posts. After that, I think most of the concerns have been pointed out. Need to see where they are headed in order to give much more feedback now IMO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkrok View Post
    First, Meat-Head is exactly correct...

  2. #3102
    Hatchery Founder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    I don't see whats complicated about the UI Tiran made (or even the shoddy one I made)...I think its fairly self explanatory.

    Even stuff like Multiclass PrEs and Favored PrE and various other systems that have been suggested are quite simple and if any info is required a tutorial NPC would suffice (Give the trainers something to do)

    As far as the 3 Tree limit its great were getting a bunch of new enhancements but so do Single-Classes...and they get more...so theres less reason enhancement wise to multiclass...and theres really no reason for thwe limit beyond making it "easier"
    I don't mind Tiran's UI model actually. It's fairly nice and condense. Though I believe I still might like to see more than the racial and one class tree at a time.

    Multiclassing, in my opinion, is to have more options available, not necassarily better or worse options. I believe that's accomplished just fine by letting players swap out one tree for another they might find more suitable. At best, we're talking about a player only being able to get up to the top of two tree anyway. (Unless of course they change how many APs a player gets.) Being able to spend points in 9 different trees might be great for the advanced player, but I'm just worried it would be too much for the casual player to deal with.
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  3. #3103
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldin View Post
    I don't mind Tiran's UI model actually. It's fairly nice and condense. Though I believe I still might like to see more than the racial and one class tree at a time.

    Multiclassing, in my opinion, is to have more options available, not necassarily better or worse options. I believe that's accomplished just fine by letting players swap out one tree for another they might find more suitable. At best, we're talking about a player only being able to get up to the top of two tree anyway. (Unless of course they change how many APs a player gets.) Being able to spend points in 9 different trees might be great for the advanced player, but I'm just worried it would be too much for the casual player to deal with.
    I can understand that by why handicap veteran players because a new player might just get a bit overwhelmed...when i first started playing the game i found the community quite readily answered any questions I had...stupid or not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  4. #3104
    Community Member ormsbygore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiranBlade View Post


    EDIT: And it's starting to look like a folded open book with a bunch of tabs....,
    Interesting Idea, similar(but still different and new) to the one I thoought of here...

    Quote Originally Posted by ormsbygore View Post
    Harmonious Balance: ~Nimzaraka~, ~Nimalika~, ~Nimfu~, ~Pseudonim~, Nimhish, ...more Nim's in other places
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  5. #3105
    Community Member Meat-Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ormsbygore View Post
    Interesting Idea, similar(but still different and new) to the one I thoought of here...

    FWIW Orms, yours is still my favorite (though the devs would make it prettier)



    To the people who say "it'll be too complicated" I say:

    1. They'll learn
    2. It's not THAT complicated
    3. Let the braindead go play another MMO. [WoW is turning into Pokemon and kung-fu panda (paraphrased from a friend who is a WoW player)]
    4. Rolling a gimp toon in DDO is like a right of passage. :P We've all done it.
    KASHIL -- KASHILAH -- MATTAH -- MAHGANE -- KHYBER -- ANNIHILATION
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkrok View Post
    First, Meat-Head is exactly correct...

  6. #3106
    Time Killer TiranBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxwellEdison View Post
    I like this layout, it's clean and simple.



    This is definitely more in line with FailedLegend's vision. However, it also helps illustrate my concerns with it.

    First: Too much focus on pet enhancements. Currently, only the Artificer has a need for pet enhancements. Druid most likely will and there is a very small, yet non-zero, chance Rangers will. I don't think the pet enhancements need to be folded into the character enhancement screen. It would work better to be able to access them from the pets own character sheet.

    Second: Multi-class PrE's. Correct me if I am wrong, but I can't think of any time when multi-class PrE's have been mentioned with any of the plans for the future. As such, I don't think the UI should be built around their future inclusion. If they ever did get included just add a fourth PrE tab on each of it's component classes.
    Yeah, I put in a later edit or post, don't remember which at this point that stated to the degree, I shouldn't have put the pet tab in, I don't think it fits because the pet is on a different enhancement system.

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  7. #3107
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Has it been established somewhere in all of these posts what Humans will be able to take for racial prestige enhancements? Will humans have their pick of any prestige enhancement in the game or just their pick of any racial prestige enhancment? I would not mind on my human cleric taking the current Favorite soul prestige enhancement in addition to the radiant servant one for instance.
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

  8. #3108
    Community Member dkyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Has it been established somewhere in all of these posts what Humans will be able to take for racial prestige enhancements? Will humans have their pick of any prestige enhancement in the game or just their pick of any racial prestige enhancment? I would not mind on my human cleric taking the current Favorite soul prestige enhancement in addition to the radiant servant one for instance.
    We've not been told much about Humans. Just that they'll be able to choose from some set of PrEs. Could be all of them, could be the ones other races get, could be ones that only they get. We've also been told that Humans would have to spend more to unlock their Racial PrE.

  9. #3109
    Community Member boomer70's Avatar
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    Well things seemed to have died down so I thought I would post an idea for a reworked Stalwart Defender prestige. This is designed with the idea that prestige would be separate entities that you meet certain non-class level specific criteria to enter. Obviously some stuff could be used under a different scheme.

    Basically this breakdown would spread out the benefits of the class over most smaller enhancements. In order to get all of the same benefits that SD gives now it will cost significantly more AP than the 8 it costs now. This is intentional. Prestige "classes" are supposed to represent a focus on a specific role. 8 AP is hardly an investment at all. Also by spreading out the benefits you no longer have to be 18/12/6 to see such a huge jump in power. If you look at the benefits granted by the prestige currently it is so OP above what none prestige classes grant that it is virtually impossible to balance.

    To mitigate this, I added some new abilities to the class. I tried to avoid entirely new mechanics to increase implementation speed. It also gives a lot more flexibility to pick what areas of the prestige to focus on.

    Stalwart Defender I
    Requirements: BAB +6, one of (Combat Expertise, Dodge), one of (Shield Mastery, Tower Shield Proficiency), one of (Toughness, Diehard), Intimidate 6 ranks, AC Boost I
    Cost: 4 AP
    Benefit: You gain the ability to enter a defensive stance by expending a use of AC Boost.
    Defensive Stance
    Stance Type: Morale (can’t be used with other Morale based stances)
    You gain a +1 Competence bonus to Strength and Constitution, +10% bonus to Hit Points, a +2 dodge bonus to AC, +1 bonus to DCs to resist combat maneuvers, a +1 bonus to Will saves, a +2 Competence bonus to Intimidate, and a +15% Competence bonus to Incite (threat). While in a defensive stance you move 25% slower. You can end your stance at any time but when you do you become Fatigued. If you become incapacitated your stance ends. Because of the concentration required to maintain your stance spells cost twice their normal spell point cost when cast while you are in stance.

    Morale Stance
    Examples: Defensive Stance, Power Surge, Rage
    Can’t enter a Morale Stance when fatigued or exhausted.

    Stalwart Defender II-V
    Requirements: 8/16/24/32 AP spent in tree
    Cost: 1/1/1/1
    Benefits: stacking DR 1/- per tier

    Improved Defense I-III
    Requirements: Dodge, Defender I/III/V
    Cost: 1/1/1
    Benefit: +1 stacking AC per tier.

    Improved Intimidate I-III
    Requirements: Defender I/III/V
    Cost: 1/1/1
    Benefit: +2 Intimidate per tier

    Improved Tower Shield Mastery I-III
    Requirements: Tower Shield Prof, Defender I/III/V
    Cost: 1/1/1
    Benefit: +1 MDB with tower shield per tier.

    Defensive Shield I-III
    Requirements: Shield Mastery, Defender I/III/V
    Cost: 1/1/1
    Benefit: DR 2/- per tier with shield (doesn't stack except with itself)

    Intimidating Presence I-III
    Requirements: Shield Proficiency, Defender I/III/V
    Cost: 1/1/1
    Benefit: +25% Incite when using a shield per tier.

    Mobile Stance I-III
    Requirements: Defender I/II/III
    Cost: 1/1/1
    Benefit: decreases movement penalty in stance by 5% per tier.

    Hardy Stance I-V
    Requirements: Defender I/II/III/IV/V
    Cost:1/1/1/1/1
    Benefit: additional +1 Con per tier when in stance.

    Powerful Stance I-V
    Requirements: Defender I/II/III/IV/V
    Cost: 1/1/1/1/1
    Benefit: additional +1 Str per tier when in stance.

    Intimidating Stance I-V
    Requirements: Defender I/II/III/IV/V
    Cost: 1/1/1/1/1
    Benefit: +10% Incite per tier when in stance

    Willful Stance I-V
    Requirements: Defender I/II/III/IV/V
    Cost: 1/1/1/1/1
    Benefit: +1 Will save per tier when in stance.

    Defensive Reflexes I
    Requirements: Defender I/III/V
    Cost: 1/1/1
    Benefit: +2 Reflex save per tier when in stance.

    Clear Mind I-II
    Requirements: Defender II/IV
    Cost: 2/2
    Benefit: Reroll failed Will save once per tier while in stance

    Internal Fortitude
    Requirements: Defender II, Hardy Stance I
    Cost: 2
    Benefit: Immune to conditions poisoned, diseased, nauseated, fatigued and exhausted while in stance

    Smash I-II
    Requirements: Defender II/IV
    Cost: 2/2
    Benefit: Gain an increase of 20% chance per tier to Shield Bash while in stance.

    Riposte I-II
    Requirements: Defender II/IV, Dodge
    Cost: 2/2
    Benefit: You gain the Riposte ability. Tier 2 grants twice the proc rate.

    Fearless Defense
    Requirements: Defender II
    Cost: 2
    Benefit: You are immune to the effects frightened and shaken while in stance.

    Immobile Stance
    Requirements: Defender II
    Cost: 2
    Benefit: While in stance you are immune to knockdown/knockback but move 10% slower.

    Improved Armor Mastery I-II
    Requirements: Defender III/V
    Cost: 1/1
    Benefit: +1 MDB when in heavy armor per tier. Tier 2 grants +1 MDB in medium armor.

    Improved AC Boost I-II
    Requirements: Defender III/V
    Cost: 1/1
    Benefit: Your AC boosts last 50% longer per tier.

    Renewed Defense I-II
    Requirements: Defender III/V
    Cost: 2/2
    Benefit: Gain healer's bounty-like effect while in stance. Tier I grants CMW, Tier II grants CCW (min CL to cast). Proc rate 5%.

    Mighty Resilience I-II
    Requirements: Defender III/V
    Cost: 1/1
    Benefit: Gain 5% additional HP per tier when in stance.

    Stalwart Defense
    Requirements: Defender IV
    Cost: 2
    Benefit: You gain the effect of a Stalwart Pact spell when you enter your stance. The spell ends when you leave stance. The caster level is equal to your character level.

  10. #3110
    Community Member orakio's Avatar
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    As commendable as your effort is boomer it moves away entirely from what the purpose of the trees are and what the developers have stated their intentions to be. Much of what you have could very well be enhancement options for stalwart but you have SOOOOO many restrictions on every enhancement on there and there are no real 2nd or 3rd ranks of the PrE listed. I know you have "Stalwart defender 2-5" but really, 1/- Dr is supposed to simulate a tier 2 or tier3 PrE?

    A big part of the new tree system concept is keep it simple. You have 79 AP just for stalwart enhancements listed in there, just seems like a bit much and takes nearly 40 of it just to give what you get outta SD3 now.

    Personally I think Stalwart and DoS are in decent spots and need more of just a translation to the new system rather than a rework.
    Last edited by orakio; 01-25-2012 at 03:25 PM.

  11. #3111
    Community Member boomer70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by orakio View Post
    As commendable as your effort is boomer it moves away entirely from what the purpose of the trees are and what the developers have stated their intentions to be.
    That was the entire point. I don't like what they have proposed so I am proposing an alternative.

    Quote Originally Posted by orakio View Post
    Much of what you have could very well be enhancement options for stalwart but you have SOOOOO many restrictions on every enhancement on there and there are no real 2nd or 3rd ranks of the PrE listed.
    There are very few restrictions listed except that you have to take a tier 1 enhancement before you can take a tier two.
    Quote Originally Posted by orakio View Post
    I know you have "Stalwart defender 2-5" but really, 1/- Dr is supposed to simulate a tier 2 or tier3 PrE?
    No it is not supposed to be a tier 2 or 3. The point is to smooth out the development of the prestige over the life of the character.
    To help understand it think of how Arcane Archer works now. You need to have Conjure +2 Arrows before you can get the next special arrow.

    As I explained in the intro, it is supposed to take more of an investment to get the best abilities. Currently the game is entirely built around the PrEs because they provide so much for so little investment (8AP for tier IIIs). You have to take the concept in the context it was intended, that the class enhancements get a rework providing many more and stronger options. It should be an option to be a defender not a requirement.

    Quote Originally Posted by orakio View Post
    A big part of the new tree system concept is keep it simple. You have 79 AP just for stalwart enhancements listed in there, just seems like a bit much and takes nearly 40 of it just to give what you get outta SD3 now.

    Personally I think Stalwart and DoS are in decent spots and need more of just a translation to the new system rather than a rework.
    The idea of having many choices (79AP) is that you should have to make a trade off. This is not the case today so it seems like a big change but it would definitely help balance things because there wouldn't be MASSIVE increases in character power at 6/12/18 breakpoints.

    I really am not sure how this is any more complicated than the proposed system. You can easily display a tree with each tier of SD I-V as a root and each option available as a row much like the tree provided by the devs (except there wouldn't be the ability to take an option multiple times at the same tier).

    The point is I don't like the new system so I am showing an alternative.

  12. #3112
    Community Member orakio's Avatar
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    I don't mean to be offensive but your proposal is pretty ridiculous and just adds to the overall complication and bloat found in the current enhancement system. Your proposal does little other than increasing the relative cost of a PrE to 5x what it currently does, although it does add a ton of new enhancements.

    Btw, there are a TON of restrictions in the enhancements you suggested. Every single one has PrE rank requirements, some have feat requirements that have nothing to do with the enhancement. "Improved Defense I-III, requires: dodge" +1 bonus to ac, why does it require dodge? I am struggling to think of anything in the current system with a feat requirement that isn't a PrE or that the enhancement isn't directly related to (i.e. improved power attack). As a matter of fact, you can't even pick a single one of those enhancements without picking a PrE first, that seems a bit odd if you don't necessarily want the PrE.

    Why should you prevent people from being able to rage while entering the defender stances? Why are you adding an pointless 100% spellpoint cost increase to the defender stance like it is combat expertise all of a sudden? All you did was make a FUBAR'd version of stalwart defender because you think PrE's should take up more of a character investment. That isn't to say that some of the enhancements wouldn't be awesome for the proposed tree system but you totally neutered PrE's themselves. Might as well do away with PrE's altogether with what you suggested and just build it all into enhancements...and ignore what 90% of players have asked for over the last few years.

    Quote Originally Posted by boomer70 View Post
    The idea of having many choices (79AP) is that you should have to make a trade off. This is not the case today so it seems like a big change but it would definitely help balance things because there wouldn't be MASSIVE increases in character power at 6/12/18 breakpoints.

    I really am not sure how this is any more complicated than the proposed system. You can easily display a tree with each tier of SD I-V as a root and each option available as a row much like the tree provided by the devs (except there wouldn't be the ability to take an option multiple times at the same tier).

    The point is I don't like the new system so I am showing an alternative.
    I don't think you understand how the PrE roots are designed to work under the dev's proposed system. You don't put points into those root abilities to unlock things, they are unlocked as you invest in the tree. They are also staggered now for levels 3/6/9/12/15/18/20 creating less distinct breakpoints than you see with the current 6/12/18 splits of PrE's. That being said the game itself currently see's pretty large increases in monster progression and dungeon difficulties around those 6/12/18 breakpoints, it all evens out.

    It is ok to reduce the baseline effectiveness of some PrE's when entering the new system so that you have more enhancements and distinction for people with deeper investment but your suggestion goes so far beyond that, it just wrecks PrE's.
    Last edited by orakio; 01-25-2012 at 10:50 PM.

  13. #3113
    2015 DDO Players Council Seikojin's Avatar
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    Kind of off topic, but every time I see this thread title, I hear the dwarf in the first dragon age game saying Enchantment!

  14. #3114
    Time Killer TiranBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seikojin View Post
    Kind of off topic, but every time I see this thread title, I hear the dwarf in the first dragon age game saying Enchantment!
    Sandal: Enchantment?
    : pause :
    Sandal: ENCHANTMENT!!

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  15. #3115
    Time Killer TiranBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ormsbygore View Post
    Interesting Idea, similar(but still different and new) to the one I thoought of here...
    I forgot about your idea comletely though I had seen it before, yours was a good idea, I just thought I would work around the ideas of others using what the Devs intend to use in the first place. Pretty much it all condenced down.

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  16. #3116
    Community Member Artos_Fabril's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boomer70 View Post
    Well things seemed to have died down so I thought I would post an idea for a reworked Stalwart Defender prestige. This is designed with the idea that prestige would be separate entities that you meet certain non-class level specific criteria to enter. Obviously some stuff could be used under a different scheme.[...]
    I think that by massively increasing the cost associated with taking a PrE without increasing the benefits, or at least incorporating other benefits, you're basically proposing an across-the-board nerf to PrEs, both multi-class and pure.

    That said, here's an example of what I want to see for Rogue enhancements:

    Code:
    General Tab
    Enhancement Name                      Cost Progression     Class Level Requirement     Benefit
    Faster Sneaking                         1/1/1/1/1            1/4/7/10/13                 10% faster movement while sneaking
    Sneak Attack Training                   1/1/1/1/1/1/1        1/4/7/10/13/16/19           +2 Sneak attack Damage per level
    Sneak Attack Accuracy                   1/1/1/1              2/5/9/14                    +1 to-hit to sneak attacks per level
    Subtlety                                2/2                  3/9                         Your attacks produce 15% less threat per tier
    Device Mastery                          2/2/2/2              1/6/11/16                   +1 to Disable Device, Open Locks, and UMD per level
    Stealth                                 1/1/1/1              1/6/11/16                   +1 to Hide and Move Silently per tier
    Haste boost                             1/1/1/1/1            1/5/9/13/17                 10% haste boost for first tier, 5% each additional tier
    Skill Boost                             1/1/1/1              1/4/7/10                    +2 skill boost first tier, +1 each additional tier
    Damage Boost                            1/1/1/1/1            1/5/9/13/17                 10% damage boost for first tier, 5% each additional tier
    Rogue Dexterity                         2/2/2/2              1/6/11/16                   +1 Dexterity per tier
    Wand and Scroll Mastery                 1/1/1/1/1            2/5/8/11/14                 +15% increase to effectiveness of wands/scrolls/other items that cast spells
    The General Tab contains no tier unlocks or benefits, and is class-level gated as noted. The general tab is automatically available with 1 rogue level , Half-Elf Dilettante: Rogue, or the rogue active past life feat, Past Life: Sneak of Shadows.
    Half Elf Diletante: Rogue would count as 1 level of rogue for the purpose of class-level requirements. Dilettante enhancements would increase this level by 1 each. Past Life: Sneak of Shadows would count as 2 levels of rogue for the purpose of class-level requirements. A Half-Elf with Rogue Dilettante, all dilettante enhancements and Sneak of Shadows would count as a level 5 rogue for the purpose of general enhancements, but would not be eligible for any of the PrE trees. These "virtual levels" are added to rogue levels for general enhancements, but not for PrEs.

    Code:
    Acrobat
    Enhancement Name                 Cost Progression     Class Level Requirement     Benefit
    Acrobatics                         1/1/1/1              3/6/9/12                    +1 to Balance, Jump, Tumble
    ->Showtime                         1/1/1/1/1/1/1        1/3/5/7/9/11/13             1 use per tier of "Showtime" (as current Showtime, no boost use)
    ->->Prime Time                     1/1/1                9/11/13                     Showtime adds 3/6/10% doublestrike
    ->->->Grand Finale                 3                    15                          Consume a use of your "Showtime" ability to gain 15% doublestrike and 50% fortification bypass for 8 seconds
    ->->->->Encore!                    1                    18                          Striking the killing blow on a red- or purple-named monster returns a use of your "Showtime" ability
    Tactical Staff                     1/1/1/1/1/1          2/6/10/14/18                +1 bonus per tier to all tactics feats with quarterstaff equipped
    Staff Training                     1/1/1/1/1            2/5/8/11/14                 Increase the Enhancement Bonus of your Quarterstaff by +1 per tier
    ->Staff Fencing                    1/1/1/1/1/1          6/8/10/12/14/16             Gain 2% fortification bypass and +1 deflection bonus to AC per tier while using a quarterstaff
    ->->Defense Staff                  1/1/1                9/12/15                     5% competence bonus to damage reduction per tier with staff equipped
    ->Staff Specialization             1/1/1                6/9/12                      +2 damage per tier with equipped staff
    ->->Staff Expertise                1/1/1/1/1            9/11/13/15/17               +2% per tier to glancing blow damage or off-hand proc rate with staves
    ->->->->Staff Mastery              2/2                  15/18                       +1 to Staff Critical Threat per tier
    ->->->->->Staff Impact             2                    18                          +1 to Staff Critical Multiplier
    ->Staff Blitz                      2                    3                           Treat Staves as double-weapons
    Uncanny Relfexes                   1/1/1/1              4/6/8/10                    Uncanny Dodge grants additional +1 AC and +1 reflex per tier
    ->Uncanny Dodger                   1/1/1                6/9/12                      Uncanny Dodge lasts 10 seconds longer per tier
    ->->Uncanny Mind                   1/1/1                9/11/13                     Uncanny Dodge also grants +2 per tier to will saves
    ->->Uncanny Body                   1/1/1                9/11/13                     Uncanny dodge also grants +2 per tier to fortitude saves
    ->->->Uncanny Evasion              3                    18                          Uncanny Evasion gives the rogue a second chance on a failed reflex save
    Nimble Strike                      1/1/1/1              3/6/9/12                    Add 2 points of your dexterity bonus to sneak attack damage per tier
    Slow Fall                          3                    4                           Gain Slow Fall as a monk of equal level
    Aerobatics                         2                    15                          +20% movement speed while falling
    
    
    Granted Benefits:
    Tier .5     +10% movement speed
    Tier 1      +5% attack speed with Staves +2 uses of uncanny dodge
    Tier 1.5    +1 use of uncanny dodge
    Tier 2      Immunity to knockdown and slippery surfaces
    Tier 2.5    +1 use of uncanny dodge
    Tier 3      Full ability bonus to damage with staff as double-weapon, or +15% glancing blow damage and 5% effect proc rate as two-handed
    Capstone    +2 to dexterity and gain incorporeal miss chance equal to your reflex save
    PrE tiers granted at levels 3/6/9/12/15/18/20, points spent requirement 4/8/16/20/24/31, total of 77 points worth of options. Arrows (->) show dependencies. A character could spent almost all of their points in acrobat enhancements, or just over 1/3rd, and pick up other trees. A character could gain the capstone taking only staff enhancements, no staff enhancements, or some of each. Capstone would either become a stance, or mutually exclusive, in order to prevent a character getting more than 1.

    Code:
    Assassin
    Enhancement Name                 Cost Progression     Class Level Requirement     Benefit
    Stealth                           1/1/1/1              3/6/9/12                    +1 to hide, move silently, and bluff
    ->Running Silent                  1/1/1/1/1            4/7/10/13/16                1 use per tier of 35% sprint boost, while stealthed only
    Assassin's Focus                  1/1/1/1/1/1/1        1/3/5/7/9/11/13             1 use per tier of "Assassin's Focus"*
    ->Assassin's Quickness            1/1/1                9/11/13                     Assassin's Focus adds 3/6/10% doublestrike
    ->->Penetrating Focus             3                    15                          Consume a use of "Assassin's Focus" to ignore 100% of fortification for 10 seconds
    ->->->The Big Hit                 1                    18                          A successful Assassinate returns one use of your "Assassin's Focus"
    The Subtle Knife                  1/1/1                6/12/15                     Your attacks cause 10% less threat per tier (stacks with Subtlety)
    Serrated Knives                   1/1/1/1/1            2/6/10/14/18                Your dagger/kukri criticals reduce enemy AC and fortification by 1% for 10 seconds, 1 stack per tier
    Knife Sharpening                  1/1/1/1/1            2/5/8/11/14                 Increase the Enhancement Bonus or your Dagger or Kukri by +1 per tier
    ->Razor Edges                     1/1/1                8/12/16                     +2 damage per tier with equipped daggers and kukris
    ->->Flashing Blades               1/1/1/1/1            9/11/13/15/17               2% chance per tier to proc a 'Deception' effect on hit
    ->->->Knife Mastery               2/2                  15/18                       +1 to critical multiplier with knives on 20/19-20
    ->->->->Stiletto                  2                    18                          +1 to critical threat range with daggers
    Poisoner                          2                    3                           Choose one of three poisons (see current assassin I poisons)
    ->Concentrated Poisons            1/1/1/1/1            6/9/12/15/18                +1 per tier to the DC of your poisons
    ->->Cunning Poions                3                    12                          Add your intelligence modifier to the DC of your poisons
    ->->->Corrosive Poison            1/1/1                6/12/18                     Your poisons deal 2d6 untyped damage per tier to enemies who are immune to poison
    ->Experienced Poisoner            2                    15                          Gain Immunity to Poison and Disease
    Weighted Dice                     2/2/2                2/11/20                     Increase the minimum result of your sneak attack dice by 1 per die, per tier
    
    *Assassin's Focus: +2 to hit with sneak attacks, +20 to confirm criticals, bypass 10% of fortification, when attacking from stealth, you have 100% offhand attack chance.
    Granted Benefits:
    Tier .5    +15% faster movement while sneaking; +2 to Hide, Move Silently, and Fortitude saves
    Tier 1     +1d6 sneak attack damage
    Tier 1.5   +1d6 sneak attack damage
    Tier 2     Assassinate (dex based); +2 to Hide, Move Silently, and Fortitude saves
    Tier 2.5   +1d6 sneak attack damage
    Tier 3     Vorpal Assassinate; +2 to Hide, Move Silently, and Fortitude saves
    Capstone:  +2 Dex; +4d6 Sneak Attack Damage
    I couldn't come up with as much for Assassin, only 69 points, but then Assassins needed less help, and daggers/kukris are inherently better than staves. You could still get away with taking less than half of the enhancements, and still reach the capstone, or take all of them, with a few points left over for the DPS enhancements in the general tab. No dagger or poison enhancements required to meet the capstone, just barely.

    edit: Grabbed the mechanic enhancements back into this poste from here in order to consolidate for linking back to this post.
    Code:
    Mechanic
    Enhancement Name                 Cost Progression     Class Level Requirement     Benefit
    Engineering                       1/1/1/1              3/6/9/12                    +1 to Disable Device, Open Lock, Search, Spot
    ->Reverse Engineering             1/1/1                6/10/14                     +1 to Use Magic Device, +1 crafting level, +2 trap DC
    Combat Engineer                   1/1/1/1/1/1/1        1/3/5/7/9/11/13             1 use per tier of "Combat Engineer"**
    ->Demolitionist                   1/1/1                9/11/13                     While Combat Engineer is active, your traps are emplaced instantly; traps and grenades have a 4% chance per tier to crit for double damage
    ->->Big Ba-da-boom                3                    15                          Consume a use of "Combat Engineer" to increase all trap, grenade, and crossbow damage by 50% for 8 seconds
    ->->->Mass Destruction            1                    18                          When your score a kill with a grenade, reclaim one use of "Combat Engineer"
    Bolt-Ridden                       1/1/1/1/1            2/6/10/14/18                Repeater criticals reduce enemy fortification by 2% and fortitude saves by 1 for 10 seconds, 1 stack per tier
    Mechanical Aptitude               1/1/1/1/1            4/7/10/13/16                Increase the enhancement bonus of your repeating crossbow by 1 per tier
    ->Repeater Specialization         1/1/1                8/12/16                     +2 damage per tier with your equipped repeater
    ->->Repeating Repeater            1/1/1/1/1            6/9/12/15/18                Your repeater has a 1% chance per tier to fire a second volley immediately
    ->->->Repeater Mastery            2/2                  15/18                       Reduce repeater reload time by 25% per tier (multiplicative stacking with rapid reload)
    ->->->->Sabot Shots               2                    18                          +1 to Critical multiplier on vorpal strikes with all crossbows/repeaters
    Manual Dexterity                  1/1/1/1/1            3/6/9/12/15                 Reduces time to open lock or disarm by 20% per tier
    ->Nimble Mind                     3                    12                          Add your dex bonus to your disable device total
    Practiced Eye                     1/1/1/1/1            1/3/5/7/9                   +1 spot and -20% search time per tier
    Monkeywrencher                    1/1/1/1              3/8/13/18                   +1d6 per tier bane damage to constructs
    ->Wrack Construct                 1/1/1                5/10/15                     Wrack Construct I/II/III (as current)
    ->->Ruin Construct                2                    12                          Wrack construct stuns on crits; red/purple named lose additional 15% fort instead
    Repair Construct                  1/1/1/1              1/4/7/10                    repair 1d3+3 per second, per tier - 15 second duration
    Trap Resistance                   1/1/1                2/8/14                      +2 to saves vs. traps and +3 to all elemental resistances per tier
    
    **Combat Engineer: Traps take 50% less time to place and enemies who successfully save still have their defenses compromised, reducing fortification by 10% for 10 seconds (does not stack with itself) 
    Granted Benefits
    Tier .5    Light Repeating Crossbow Proficiency; Critical fail while disarming trap dazes you, but does not explode the box
    Tier 1     Add your Int bonus to crossbow/repeater damage; your trap DCs are increased; all of your traps and grenades deal 10% more damage
    Tier 1.5   Heavy Repeating Crossbow Proficiency; +3 to Disable Device, Open Locks, and Search
    Tier 2     Add half your dex bonus to sneak attack damage; your trap DCs are increased; +3% crit chance with traps and grenades (+0.5 multiplier)
    Tier 2.5   Smite constructs/living constructs; +3 to elemental resistances, 10% damage reduction vs physical traps
    Tier 3     Great Crossbow Proficientcy; your trap DCs are increased; traps and grenades deal addional 15% damage
    Capstone:  +2 Int; All light/heavy/great crossbows you wield fire volleys of 3 bolts, instead of 1; Trap DCs increased
    There still aren't enough crossbow bonuses to reach the capstone without taking anything else. I'm not sure if I'm ok with that. You could still get the capstone without taking any trap enhancements, or without taking any crossbow enhancements, although I can't imagine why you'd want to. 74 total points in the tab.
    Last edited by Artos_Fabril; 01-30-2012 at 03:44 PM.

  17. #3117
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiranBlade View Post
    Sandal: Enchantment?
    : pause :
    Sandal: ENCHANTMENT!!
    Heh heh BEST Dragon Age Character

    Quote Originally Posted by Artos_Fabril View Post
    Good Stuff
    Lots of Good stuff there Artos..I especially love that you have it so Assassin can specialize in Daggers/Kukris it just makes sense, Also that they have an actual backstab ability. I appreciate the attempt to make Mech but if you look back at a bunch of Mech suggestion threads I would swear aside from the spells they built artificer from them so I'm really looking forward to what the devs are doing with them. I also can't wait to see Wild Mage...I really hope they make alot of their abilities completely random (ie. Wild Stance: 50% chance of doubling damage/buff time[stack with metas], 10% turning party members purple, 10% of summoning a horde of useless monkeys, 1% Chance of becoming a barrel,etc.)

    Anyways when someone first suggested general/class enhancements I wasn't really sure but honestly it just makes sense now...core stuff like Monk Stances, Ranger Favored Enemies, Most Action Boosts, Spell Damage Lines, etc. really don't belong in PrE lines and honestly if they can come up with as much stuff as you they won't need that stuff to fill in the gaps (which was my original worry when someone first suggested it) and the PrE lines would feel much more unique as a result.

    The MAIN thing I like about your proposed Trees is not everyone's tree will look the same since there's SO much available. I still think the 3-Tree limit should be removed than have the "Choose 3 PrEs" system implemented instead.

    Oh and removing level gating would be a nightmare (unrelated to your post artos I've just seen a few suggestions to do it)
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 01-26-2012 at 03:46 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  18. #3118
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    Default How about these ideas to address many of the expressed concerns?

    After reading through the posts in this thread, there are a number of valid concerns, which I think I may have an answer for.
    1) There is a concern that limiting the character to 3 Pre trees, would have the result in penalizing multiclass characters, since they would be getting locked out of the higher level enhancements of their Pres. Balancing pure/splash/deep multi class tree access could be accomplished by the following:
    Have both a class level gate and a character level gate applied in each PRE as follows, to unlock each tier:

    Tier .5 abilities in a Pre: Char lvl 3+, and Class lvl 1+, and 5 AP spent in Pre
    Tier 1 abilities in a Pre: Char lvl 6+, and Class lvl 2+, and 10 AP spent in Pre
    Tier 1.5 abilities in a Pre: Char lvl 9+ and class lvl 3+, and 15 AP spent in Pre
    Tier 2 abilities in a Pre: Char lvl 12+, and class lvl 4+, and 20 AP spent in Pre
    Tier 2.5 abilities in a Pre: Char lvl 15+, and Class lvl 5+, and 25 AP spent in Pre
    Tier 3 abilities in a Pre: Char lvl 18+, and Class lvl 6+, and 30 AP spent in Pre
    Tier capstone ability in a Pre: Char lvl 20, and Class lvl 7+, and 41 AP spent in Pre

    Enhancements determined to be powerful enough to require a level requirement would be based on character level instead of class level. Combine this with the three Pre limit, where a multi class can swap out any of his 3 Pre's for a Pre in one of his other classes.

    Comparing pure/splash/deep multis we have the following: a Pure class can go all the way up to capstone in any one of his Pre's and can spend his AP in any of the other 2 Pre's. A splash or deep multi could go all the way up to capstone in any Pre of a class in which he has at least 7 levels, up to tier 3 of a 6 lvl class, tier 2.5 of a 5 lvl class etc. He loses nothing compared to a pure class (in fact he could always elect not to swap any Pres and have the exact same choices as a pure class). He doesn't have a major stacking advantage over a pure class, since he can only put points in 3 Pres, total (he can't select toughness from 6 Pre's, for example which an unlimited number of Pre's would allow), but still has an advantage in that he can reset and swap out enhancement trees, which means a multiclass would have greater flexibility in enhancements than a pure class, but not significantly more power, and the flexibility would be offset by the reduced class abilities, spell levels, etc.

    There will be some current builds which cannot be duplicated under this system, since they would require abilities spread out in more than 3 Pres. However, with the reduced stacking requirements, more enhancements available, and judicious tree and enhancement choices, you'll probably be able to come up with some build that can accomplish pretty much the same things, though maybe not in the same way. This is a tradeoff for the fact that unlimited tree usage would most likely lead to a MUCH greater problem with stacking enhancements from different trees (if you have the choice of taking enhancements from 9 trees at once instead of only 3).

    2) There is a concern that the duplication of Racial Pres and class Pres would reduce the viability of favored Pre's. For example a Halfling with the racial assassin Pre would supposedly lose out on a Pre tree compared to a pure rogue of another race. The idea is that a Halfling pure rogue would only be able to choose between assassin, mechanic, and acrobat, but a Drow pure rogue (for example) would have the choice of tempest as well as the three rogue Pres.

    This could be prevented with the simplification of the stacking limits. While it's true a pure Drow rogue tempest/assassin would have many abilities a pure halfling rogue wouldn't, the Halfling could be much better at being an ASSASSIN due to the relaxed stacking limits. The Halfling could put AP into BOTH assassin Pre trees, gaining double the abilities. For example if the assassin tree allowed 5 ranks of sneak attack training and 5 ranks of sneak attack damage, the Halfling could put 5 ranks in each, on BOTH trees, gaining a +10 to hit and +30 damage with their sneak attacks compared to the Drow's max of +5 to hit, +15 damage.

    The same would be true for all the other enhancements in the tree. A Pure Drow ranger could double up on the tempest tree, getting double the effects of a tempest from another race, etc. True, some of the abilities gained may not stack (the +20 % offhand proc, with GTWF already gives 100% chance, and wouldn't benefit from doubling), but other effects could (like the shield bonus). With this option, there would still be a reason to go Drow ranger or Halfling rogue, etc.

    3) A different concern with having racial Pre's duplicate class pres is the fact that many of the racial Pres just don't really fit with many race/class variants, or would be so overwhelmingly advantageous as to make them virtually required for that role. To fix this, I propose the following: Each race would have 3 Pre's that are about 90% the same between races, with just enough of a difference to make them unique. The 3 Pre's would be divided as follows:

    A) A mundane Pre with no prerequisite, no unlock needed, containing things like racial skills, weapon choices, dragonmarks, etc.
    B) A caster Pre with a prerequisite of being able to cast spells or mental toughness, containing enhancements involving the casting of spells, using wands, UMD, spells points, arcane fluidity, etc.
    C) A pet Pre, with the prerequisite of the feat Augment summoning, containing enhancements replacing the iron defender line that grants the use of a racially specific pet.

    They could either design some new creatures for the racial pets (like a Halfling dinosaur) or use existing ones, like dogs for humans, fey cats for elves, lions for half orcs, wolves for halflings, scorpions for Drow, rats for for Dwarves, iron defenders for warforged, and either fey cat or dog for half elves. These pets would have some similarities to the artificer pets in that they'd have a character sheet and can be named, can equip armor, and increase in level as the character levels, but would be less useful in that they don't get AP of their own (the character must spend his own AP to improve them), they take the place of a standard hireling (but not a gold seal hireling), and can only be summoned near a dungeon entrance, can't be summoned in public areas (to reduce lag), and don't get to equip a weapon module (limited to their own natural attacks).

    Enhancements in these Pre trees would be arranged in tiers like the class Pres, but the AP required for each tier would be 2/4/6/8/10/12/15, and if there are any abilities granted for each tier, they would be smaller than the abilities granted from a class Pre tier.

    Aquiring the various tiers in 2 or more of the racial Pres would be the equivalent of getting a level in a racial paragon prestige class (introduced in Unearthed Arcana). Ie: tier 1 in 2 racial pre's = paragon lvl 1, tier 2 in 2 racial pre's = paragon lvl 2, tier 3 in 2 racial Pres = paragon lvl 3, capstone in 2 racial pre's = paragon lvl 4. The paragon levels would be different for each race, building on the strengths of that race, but typically fairly minor. I think this would be a better idea than having racial Pre's duplicating class Pre's, would allow the racial Pre's to actually grant benefits to a character of any race or class, offer enough racial diversity to make each race different, without making any race the "must be" race for a particular build.

    Overall, I think we could go with option 1 and 2 or option 1 and 3 (my preference), If they decided to go with all 3 options (the generic racial Pre's AND a race specific class Pre), they should make the unlock cost of the racial class Pre significant. Anyway, those are my ideas, let me know what you all think.
    Last edited by daydrmrzzz; 01-26-2012 at 11:45 AM. Reason: clearing up the "wall of text"

  19. #3119

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  20. #3120
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    Default Slight change to the racial pets idea

    With update 13 cosmetic pets, the Druid class, and possibly the Ranger animal companion coming out, they are making a big investment in pets anyway, so maybe the racial pets idea in my last post can be easily incorporated. I suggest the following: the Artificer homunculus should become a humanoid like in the PnP version (picture a short, squat warforged mini-me), the Druids should get a tiger, Rangers a wolf, Paladins a horse, all as class pets. For racial pets (that count as a hireling), Humans should get dogs, Elves should get Fen cats, Dwarves should get lizards, Halflings should get a velociraptor, Warforged should get the iron defender, Drow should get scorpions, Half orcs should get bears, Half elves should get either a Fen cat or a dog (their choice). In my original post i said they shouldn't get attack gear, but after thinking it over, decided they probably should. Let's have the homunculus and iron defenders getting docents and pet modules, and all the other animals getting barding and amulets of natural attack. They should make the pet modules, the barding and the amulets craftable with Cannith crafting (the docents already are) instead of using trapmaking so that any class has access to making gear for their pets. Perhaps we could get an "Animal trainer" NPC in the market that sells non magical barding and pet modules to deconstruct, and use necklaces and docents that are already available to deconstruct for crafting.

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