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  1. #141
    I <3 DDO Pwesiela's Avatar
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    I'm going to repost this here, for condenseness:

    Quote Originally Posted by Pwesiela View Post
    Was thinking about this today and thought I'd give an update as to the progress. It's kindof sad considering it's been 3 years.


    Artificer: Battle Engineer, Runic Champion (?), Mastermaker (?) 1/9 - 1 that is 1/3 done, 2 that are just guesses as to the name
    Barbarian: Frenzied Berserker, Occult Slayer, Ravager 1/3 - 1 fully done
    Bard: Spellsinger, Virtuoso, Warchanter 2/3 - 3 that are 2/3 complete
    Cleric: Exorcist of the Silver Flame, Radiant Servant, Warpriest 2/9 - 1 that is 2/3 complete
    Favored Soul: Divine Avenger, Beacon of Hope, Angel of Vengeance 2/9 - 1 that is 2/3 complete
    Fighter: Kensai, Purple Dragon Knight, Stalwart Defender 2/3 - 2 that are complete
    Monk: Henshin Mystic, Shintao Monk, Ninja Spy 5/9 - 1 that's complete, 1 that's 2/3
    Paladin: Defender of Siberys, Hunter of the Dead, Knight of the Chalice 3/3 - all 3 finished, and the only class that is such
    Ranger: Arcane Archer, Deepwood Sniper, Tempest 5/7 - 2 complete, 1 at 1/3.
    Rogue: Assassin, Mechanic, Thief-Acrobat 7/9 - 1 complete, 2 at 2/3
    Sorcerer: Acolyte of the Skin, Air Savant, Cold Savant, Earth Savant, Fire Savant 12/15 - 4 complete, 1 not even started (or you could say 1/2 if you lump the savants together as Elemental Savant, but I won't do that here)
    Wizard: Archmage, Pale Master, Wild Mage 8/11 - 2 finished, 1 not even started

    Human: Cannith Dragonmark Heir, Deneith Dragonmark Heir, Orien Dragonmark Heir, Tharashk Dragonmark Heir 0/12 - none, if you think each will be 3 tiers total
    Dwarf: Kundarak Dragonmark Heir, Dwarven Defender [Counts as Fighter] 0/6 - none, even though stalwart defender is in the game and should be easy to move over
    Elf: Arcane Archer [Counts as Ranger], Phiarlan Dragonmark Heir 1/4 - since AA technically only has 1 teir at the moment still
    Halfling: Jorasco Dragonmark Heir 0/3 - not even started
    Warforged: Warforged Juggernaut [Counts as Barbarian] 0/3 - not even started
    Drow: Scorpion Wraith [Counts as Rogue] 0/3 - not even started, even though assassin is complete and should be the same PrE (since it count's as rogue)
    Half-Orc: Who knows...we don't
    Half-Elf: Arcane Archer, Who knows...we don't. Phiarlan Dragonmark Heir?


    You finish these, and people have a reason to play the whole game all over again.

    For game re-play-ability, PrE's are key. You want people TRing, LRing, respeccing, featswapping? This is how you do it.

    I sincerely hope that when this goes through, you take serious time to add in A LOT of PrEs. Indeed, I'd imagine you'd have a tone of people very happy were there to be a PrE focused update with only minor quest additions (knowing that dev teams work on different things, may as well have the quest people do something.... Maybe add some good xp lvl 11 quests.)

    Also, keep in mind that you likely still have crit rage barbarians out there that would be disappointed to have their enhancements automatically respecced. Now, were ravager and occult slayer to be introduced in a completed form, and should one of those integrate some of crit rage, you'd probably forestall all revolt.


    In sum...



    Add PrEs.
    Archangels
    Pwesiela - Completionist Arcane Archer; Pia - Silver Flame Assassin; Aes - of the Blue Ajah; Insene - Deathpriest; Enaila - Aiel Bodyguard; Uduk - Dwarven Meatwall; Vitalien -Warder
    Quote Originally Posted by Victorie View Post
    Pwesiela is correct.

  2. #142
    Community Member Nataichal's Avatar
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    I'm cautious about this, largely because I LIKE the ability to regularly reset my enhancements, and can take different things in whatever order I'd like to a certain extent. Also, a 'tree' gives me this feeling that I might lose access to things that I can currently use due to some artificially added branching. Enhancements are one of the best customization abilities in game; don't bork it.
    Guinglain 20 Barb Tynnian 20 Cleric Citrinitas 23 Rogue Nataichal 20 Sorcerer Dy Trying 20 Bard/Ranger Altar Boy 8 Paladin Wynds of Change 20 Pal/Fight/Rogue Near Miss 20 Ranger/Rogue Beeten Senseless 24 Monk/Fighter Systematic Elimination 16 Wizard

  3. #143
    The Hatchery Urist's Avatar
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    A chieftain stands in his yurt after a successful battle, and asks the assembled generals:
    Chieftain: "What is best in enhancements?"
    General: "The most effective choices, getting the most bonuses for your AP, minmaxing your DPS."
    Cheiftain: "Wrong! Conan, what is best in enhancements?"
    Conan: "To choose your PrE, to have the prerequisites selected before you, and to still have AP left for healing amp."

    To wit:
    My primary concern, when selecting enhancements, is usually the PrE/s I want to take. IMO, these are so important to most builds, that they should on a separate and vastly more prominent part of the UI.
    It would be useful, at any level, to select one or more "target" PrEs, and have its prerequisites somehow highlighted (but not automatically taken, due to the otherwise completely useless prereqs most PrEs have). Ideally, this also includes prerequisite feats, though we're then straying into another UI element...

    Trees ... branching ... WoW ... reduced customisability ...
    I think you're all reading way too much into this. It seemed obvious to me that MadFloyd was clearly just talking about the UI. Newsflash folks - we already have a "tree" structure in the enhancement UI, it's just that there's currently only one level of nesting most of the time.
    I suspect the suggested "tree" (UI) design is more to categorise and sub-categorise things, like:
    Magic -> Spell Augmentation -> Healing Augmentation -> Prayer of Life
    Skills -> Useless skills -> Improved Swim
    Combat -> Damage -> Pompius Elven Weapon Damage
    Combat -> Abilities -> Rage -> Critical rage (OK, maybe not )

    That way, when you first open the enhancements UI, you're greeted with just five or six categories, rather than a list larger than a Greatclub of the Scrag.

  4. #144
    Community Member markusthelion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ganolyn View Post
    You guys really need to advertise this on the log in (and possibly splash screen) pages when you get ready to do this so that people have a chance to take a screen shot of or write down their current Enhancements. Some players have altoholism and having to remember dozens of character's lists will be a chore.
    /This.

    Not only do I have alt-itis, my memory sucks from only playing 3-4 hrs a week now and I just want my characters to be the same as before or better. But new IU is a welcome improvement, but please give me a heads up first!

  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    I got racial improved balance 4 on my WF wizard to reach the non-failure on titan balance. But I agree, there is few reasons to ever get improved <skill> in most builds. Very few skills really benefit from a +1~4 bonus (Mostly, Intimidate, Balance, and UMD for arties)
    Don't forget the PD players who don't twink or obsess over the AH and hand-me-downs.

    I think leaving some enhancements for flavour would be good, not everything has to catered only for a geared/crafting/twinked players.

  6. #146
    Community Member PNellesen's Avatar
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    As long as I still can haz mah RSII aura, it's all good

    And thanks for sharing! Much appreciated.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ertay View Post
    While they were at it though, the devs decided to go on an incredible nerfhammer rampage and left nothing in their wake standing...

  7. #147
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    Done well this will be a wonderful addition to the program.

    Just don't forget that it's the overwhelming customization available in DDO that makes the character building system so wonderful. I'd highly recommend that the 'trees' are reserved for PrE pre-req's or other spots that they're currently applicable and the ability to pick certain unrelated AP's is preserved.
    Tajawuka 20 Bladeforged Paladin running divine ETR's (3 ranger/monk/fighter pl's, 3 martial epl's) - Toolbots working on Morninglord Cleric life #2 (3 wizard/sorc/druid pl) - Evisra 28 rogue

  8. #148
    Community Member Bolo_Grubb's Avatar
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    I am going to go hide in a corner and cry at the thought of having to spend the time redoing the enhancements for all my alts. :P


    and make sure I have all my builds up to date so I all the information I need to redo them when the time comes.
    Kill'em all and let their favorite deity sort'em out
    BoloGrubb / DJgrubb / Gijo

  9. #149
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    Default Please keep the colorblind and visually impaired in the back of your mind.

    Thank you very much for giving us the opportunity to give feedback and share conversation with you.

    I'm sure many others will address important concepts, but I just wanted to request that...

    ...any UI decisions be made with the notion of keeping them viable for those who are colorblind and/or visually impaired. Please keep the text large enough and the contrast between text and background stark, or allow a UI option to do so, especially if this will be the interface for future work.

    Also please test the new UI for viability in 800x600 screen mode.

    Thanks for your consideration.


    (Remember, DnD players grow older too - think of all that retirement time, and monthly subscribers!)

    (You think I am kidding? In my previous MMO I met many people that fit this....People who have time on their hands because of retirement or disability are a perfect market for, and stabilizing player base for DDO.)

  10. #150
    Community Member Ralmeth's Avatar
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    Great idea! I've learned to live with the current enhancement UI, but this would be helpful. Most importantly, balancing class power with these enhancements is going to be the most critical.
    The best part of the 10th Anniversary of DDO...the description on the Oatmeal Raisin Kookie,
    "From a distance you thought this was a chocolate chip kookie. Now you're sad."

  11. #151
    Hero nibel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by learst View Post
    Don't forget the PD players who don't twink or obsess over the AH and hand-me-downs.

    I think leaving some enhancements for flavour would be good, not everything has to catered only for a geared/crafting/twinked players.
    I know. That's why i said "few" reasons. Leveling rogues also benefit greatly from trap skills.
    Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist (12/14) [<o>]
    Almost-never-played-alts: Arquera - Chapolin - Fabber - Herweg - Mecanico - Tenma


    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Kensai, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

  12. #152
    Community Member Meat-Head's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    I got racial improved balance 4 on my WF wizard to reach the non-failure on titan balance. But I agree, there is few reasons to ever get improved <skill> in most builds. Very few skills really benefit from a +1~4 bonus (Mostly, Intimidate, Balance, and UMD for arties)

    WHAT!? Listen pal, every point of SWIM I can get on my Michael Phelps build barbarian beyond my SF: Swim feat, helps, ok?

    If you can't keep up underwater, that's YOUR problem! I'll show you what zergy xp runs of Shadow Guard look like bud.
    KASHIL -- KASHILAH -- MATTAH -- MAHGANE -- KHYBER -- ANNIHILATION
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkrok View Post
    First, Meat-Head is exactly correct...

  13. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by mourne View Post
    I don't post often, ..... but here it goes. Since certain Dev's have started to contribute, this game has been getting more and more like WoW, other MMO's, and basically being dumbed down. This is a serious issue with many of us who play this game precisely because it is NOT LIKE the above and it requires a bit of thought to play it well.

    Given that it was already identified that you are fixing something that is not broke, it stands to reason that a rational person would ask, then why change it?

    It is also getting damn discouraging to see things like this, that take a significant amount of resources from developers, being done when there is sooooooo much else that needs to be done. Why not complete the PRE's? How about fixing the bug reporting system? Or here is a novel idea!! How about making more high level content or launch some new epic version of the old content????

    This is why people leave. Some of schedule significant amounts of our time to play this game. This is our enjoyment, hobby, whatever. I've been playing since launch, no breaks, dealt with every nerf/change/balance issue and here we go with another one. To say it is not a nerf, then tell folks some enhancements will change.....it is a nerf. You know it, we know it. Will you folks just quite with all this tinkering around the edges and spend some real time developing the future of this game! To spend all this time and significant amount of resources and something the game or the player base doesn't need or hasn't pestered you for for years is really mind boggeling.

    This game is on the verge of becoming either completely irrelevant or something completely unique and enjoyable in the world of MMO's. Driving the development into the same UI and other things that are common everywhere else and not finishing the enhancements that are already in at the expense of content does not engender high hopes.

    In short, I think this is another death nail in this game. I hope I'm wrong
    There's a lot that I agree with in here. Spending scarce developer resource time (and it must be scarce given the lack of timely bug fixes in this game) on tweaking something that, while less than ideal, is not broken seems to be a misallocation of resources. The last time we went down this road was when the party UI was "improved" in Update 11. Not coincidently, that was when the server population really started to decline at a steep rate. I'd suggest treading carefully here.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Some of you might dismiss this as ‘fixing something that isn’t broken’ and that’s fine – it’s totally subjective – but, hey, I’m giving you a heads up just the same.

    We hate the Enhancement UI. It’s been 4 years and I still cringe every time I see it, let alone use it. It does a poor job of letting players plan out character goals and you need the patience of a saint to use it. I could go on and on, but I won’t (feel free to use this thread to vent your frustrations with it if you share our opinion).

    We’re re-doing it – replacing it with a tree-based design that should make character planning and advancement much better and also have the added benefit of making it easier for us to implement new enhancements (PrE’s anyone?).

    It will also be the foundation for some future work.
    If it actually is an enabler to reduce the overall cost of future game development, its worth doing, assuming the amount of time you spend designing and subsequently tweaking the UI doesn't in the end cost more than your future projected savings. The bigger the changes you make here, the more likely your net savings will be small or nonexistent. Once again, the Update 11 UI changes (and the subsequent rework and impact to the user community) should be reason to step back and reassess what you are about to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    The changed enhancements will also help balance out many classes (think augmentation here, not nerfs).
    The primary class imbalance issue you have in this game is a lack of divine casters. That is apparent from the LFM panel showing all the groups waiting on a cleric or FvS. Conversely, there is a glut of melee toons in this game. Basic supply/demand rules apply here: buff what is scarce, nerf (or leave unchanged) what is in abundance.

    People in this game primarily prefer the path of least resistance. If you doubt that, just recheck your thread on the Shroud and all the cries for nerfing Shroud normal. Melee classes currently provide the path of least resistance in this game. Look at what people do, not what they moan about in the forums.

    Buffing the wrong classes here will perpetuate and aggravate the current problems, not solve them.
    Last edited by GermanicusMaximus; 01-07-2012 at 10:07 AM.

  14. #154
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    Sounds like more ways to nerf melee.

    Thats what the last major enhancement overhaul did. Many of the best enhancements disappeared or got nerfed without any discussion.

    Don't do that again please. Expand melees selection of enhancements, dont limit it.

  15. #155
    Community Member ArcaneMelee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post
    I've got a bad feeling about this.

    Are we going to see some interesting multiclass builds being nerfed?
    ...
    I honestly don't see how this wouldn't be an outcome. Cross your fingers, and hope ours dodge the bullet

    Edit: Considering the size of the impact of an enhancement change, make that a "sawed-off-buckshot".

  16. #156
    The Top Side GoldyGopher's Avatar
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    My two CP on this discussion:

    I realize not everything I say will be popular to the masses.

    The UI is majorly outdated. When it was release it seemed like a quick merger of the old four-enhancement system with the new Action Point system.

    The UI needs to have a tabbed system, not on my big computer so this is only a text version of my thoughts.

    II ALL || Race || Class || Stats || Skills || Combat || Spells ||

    Things should be listed under multiple tabs/categories where appropriate. For example “Paladin Toughness” should be under All, Class, and Stats.

    Moving into the actual Enhancements
    The cost of Enhancements need to be evaluated, sorry but there are some that just don’t seem to be in tune with the game as it has grown from Level 12 cap to level 20 cap. Examples have already been given.

    Don’t front load the enhancement. Right now to many players take one of this and one of that because the biggest bang for the buck is the first AP spent. I personally think a Bell Curve is a better model. For example “Sorcerer Wand and Scroll Mastery Line” is currently 25, 10, 10, 10 in percentage increase in my book it should be 10, 15, 20, 10 or maybe 10, 20, 20, 10. Right now there are just too many front loaded enhancements. (And what makes it worse they are not at points where it is easy to spend points).

    Look at the Prerequisite costs of each enhancements, some prerequisites don’t make sense 3 AP spent or Level 2. I know low level example but it much clearer when you look at that way. One or the other is fine but not both.

    There needs to be more low level enhancements that provide some benefit. Bard, Sorcerer, and Paladin all have dead spots where you end up wasting an AP to get to next level (10 and 40 AP comes to mind).

    Every enhancements should be available to every character things like class and race should only reduce their cost. For example if I want to use a Rapier as a human I should have access to +1/+2 to Attack and Damage. Being an Elf should just reduce the cost.
    I would add the same concept to Enhancements that have Feat Requirements. Toughness springs to mind, if I have the Toughness feat the Toughness line should be reduced from 3, 4, 5, 6 to 2,2,3,3 and if I have the correct Race 1, 1, 2, 2. You can set the cost of not having something pretty high, but even complicated PrE like Tempest should be available without having the Feats.

    PrE should have a PrE 0 (zero) level that has a minimal cost but reduces the cost to get items in that line. Thinking about Sorcerers here for an example, Taking Earth Savant 0 reduces the cost of the Acid attack and damage modifiers by 1 (you would have to increase their cost by 1 to do this).

    There should be epic versions of all PrEs.

    I am not a fan of removing any Enhancements regardless of how useless most of think they are. I am reminded of the discussion of how useless “Sap” feat was until a solo player popped on and said it great you can do this.

    Without seeing how you are going to do “Trees” I can only provide general feedback. I am not adverse to skill trees if it does not limit my choices. There is a big game in which once you make a mistake it takes upwards of hundreds of hours to rectify and I hope DDO doesn’t follow that path. On the other hand I am not averse to making some changes.

    I like many others can add more detail as we get more information on what you are thinking about.

    The Twilight Avengers are always recruiting - http://twilightavengersofeberron.yuku.com/topic/655

  17. #157
    Community Member DragonTroy's Avatar
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    Over all, I think you have already gotten what you wanted in the way of feedback Madfloyd, there is a LOT of great ideas in here. And it is quite possible that this could be a really great improvement to the game as a whole.

    One thing that would probably help a lot, considering so many people have already mentioned the issues with searching for a certain enhancement, is simply adding a text box somewhere in the UI so someone could find that specific enhancement could help people save a lot of time. Maybe this tree idea will also alleviate said issue, but the addition of one in the auction house was a great improvement. In fact I think I started using the AH more since that was added.

    Good luck Madfloyd, Varguille, and anyone and everyone else over at Turbine working on this. I hope we can expect great things
    Quote Originally Posted by DragonTroy View Post

    at one point during the aggro issues i pulled horoth on my monk, which i admit i kind of enjoyed for about half a second. but then he hit me.

  18. #158
    Community Member Hakushi's Avatar
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    I agree the UI for the enhancements needs to be upgraded. Some classes have so much to scroll that it becomes a complete mess. One thing that has to come with it is a complete review of a lot of APs costs. I'll take an example, but there's many more: Halfling Thrown Weapon Damage, the costs are 2/4/6 for only +1/+1/+1 damage. That's a huge amount of Action Points for what we get.

    Another thing is some prereqs for some PrEs. Why there's always the need for some completely useless and wasted APS to qualify for a PrE. More ways to qualify would go a long way and that would prevent the: All characters of that specific PrEs all look exactly the same. Some are so tight on their Feat and PrE rerquirements that all characters with those builds are almost exactly the same.

    Anyone would would try to convince me that the 12 APs you you need to spend to qualify for Kensai 1-3 arn't useless or wasted in a large portion. They would only be slightly useful very situationnaly if useful at all. Again, anyone would would try to convince me the 6 points you have to spend in Inspire Bravery to qualify for Warchanter arn't wasted?

    That's the kind of things that needs to be reviewed.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeLoric View Post
    Can we do away with the ap spent requirement of enhancements? The level requirement should be enough to limit things as far as acquiring them at a certain time. All the ap spent does is create some rare situations where points must be spent on things that people just don't want or need just to hit a certain ap spent requirement.
    I definitely agree with LeLoric here. The PrEs and the prereqs solved a part of this problem, but there's room for improvement.

    -Edit- I forgot to add this part: Also there's some people who have enhancements that gor nergef/changed over time but they decided to keep the old version. Most popular example is Crit Rage barbarians, also some PrEs got nerfed with time with added prereqs like as an example the rogue thief-acrobat. If the people with these builds currently reset their APs, they currently: Arn't able to get the same things, or have to spend more to get the same thing.
    Last edited by Hakushi; 01-07-2012 at 11:03 AM.
    Guild I'm one of a kind, Khyber (Originally from Riedra)
    Current Crew: Raika ~ Carolanne ~ Sulthania ~ Yasminne ~ Zazette
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  19. #159
    Community Member fco-karatekid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pwesiela View Post
    ...SNIP...
    OK, while the most distinguished Arcane Archer advocate we have in the forums is theoretically correct; I have to protest that although Arcane Archer is theoretically "complete", by no means do I think the devs should interpret that as "done".

    It needs a review and augment (to quote MF) of its damage potential of ~10% to (no more than) 15%. That would keep it lower than Melee, but not have it be the middling contributor to DPS (when off manyshot) it is now.

    The change (in Oct, I think) to Improved Precise Shot was a good change - inched us up a bit - but just a smidge more is still needed.

  20. #160
    Hero nibel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fco-karatekid View Post
    The change (in Oct, I think) to Point Blank Shot was a good change - inched us up a bit - but just a smidge more is still needed.
    Fixed.
    Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist (12/14) [<o>]
    Almost-never-played-alts: Arquera - Chapolin - Fabber - Herweg - Mecanico - Tenma


    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Kensai, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

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