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  1. #561
    Community Member sweez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meat-Head View Post
    Part of me agrees with this (selfishly I wanna maximize my toons too), but I disagree.


    Selling hearts is why PrE work is GOOD for revenue. We don't want PrEs to be P2P. So, this is how we do it.

    We actually WANT the company to make money to fund the work of all the new Devs that they supposedly recently hired so that they make new/better/less-bugged content etc.

    Think about it this way: More hearts sold = more likely to get GS decon in a reasonable amount of time.


    Now a SALE on hearts. That's just a good idea.
    I disagree. PrE's should be free, and means to redo your toon from 1-20 if they change the enhancement system should also be free. Now, it'll still take people some time to figure out which builds are 'optimal', which fit them best, whatever - that's where they'll get money from store Hearts.

    But I also think that hearts should drop a lot more in actual chests and that it's a bit sad if they don't make enough money out of actual content (packs, races and classes) and have to make it up on stuff like hearts, so that's just me.
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  2. #562
    Community Member scoobmx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrin View Post
    They do have the same favored class, and the Warforged were originally built to act as "tanks" in the war.
    What good are tanks with healing penalties? I urge you guys to think deeply about this question.
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  3. #563
    Community Member somenewnoob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobmx View Post
    What good are tanks with healing penalties? I urge you guys to think deeply about this question.
    Expendable tanks!
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  4. #564
    Community Member dkyle's Avatar
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    Alternatively to free LR hearts, or easily acquired in-game LR hearts, perhaps a "Major Reincarnation". The heart would cost 3 Epic tokens, and work like a True Reincarnation, except the current life would not count towards past life benefits, the re-leveling would take only normal first life XP, and tomes and Raid completions would not be lost.

    Should make extensive respecs more accessible, but still not trivial, while maintaining a market for the instant gratification of LRs.

  5. #565
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ferd View Post

    I'd like to see some attention paid to how each race can or can not attain certain class attributes. Dwarves by nature are cave dwellers and IMO have no business swinging from trees, hiding in bushes and trying to be a sniper.
    Too many elf ranger stereotypes associate rangers with "the woods". Heres something I wrote up a while ago for a different board discussing old school D&D stereotypes and how to overcome them as a DM.

    An elven ranger or maybe a human ranger would fit the "prancing around in the woods" stereotype. A dwarven ranger is a completely different animal.

    The ranger is a master of his own environment, so while those "sissy elves" are prancing around in the woods and hugging trees (dwarven point of view), the dwarven ranger is scouting the underdark for goblin / ettin / orc raiding parties, looking for new ore veins for the clan to mine, and finding new sources of underdark plants for use in brewing the 70 proof "holy water" the clerics use in their rituals.

    He regards his heavy pick and light pick with the same esteem a defender would regard his ax and shield. Take care of your equipment and your equipment will take care of you. Each weapon has a name, and can be used for delicate extraction of mithral samples, scaling walls, or wildly splitting orc skulls.

    His armor is cured displacer beast hide grometted with many dulled mithril studs, and while sturdy enough to deflect an ogre club at the right angle, is still light enough for the ranger to move nimbly enough to dodge traps, and quietly enough for the ranger to perform his scouting duties.

    The wilds of the underdark are even less tame than those above. No "sissy" (ranger stereotype) wanders these natural corridors alone. While the merchants, beaurocrats, and paladins of the clan are safe in their houses and ministry buildings arguing about how to best leverage their trade agreements despite the current blockade situation, the ranger is already in the underdark, where even the most stout battle hardened dwarves dont travel alone, fleshing out another trade route behind enemy lines.

    The warriors, tacticians, and mercinaries are bantering amongst eachother about how to respond or retaliate to a raid on their stores by a rival clan, meanwhile the rangers have already tracked the raiders down, and are halfway back to their clan dwelling with the stolen posessions and a bag full of heads of those who decided it was a good idea to rob them, in tow. If one attempts to flee from Dwarven rangers into the underdark, they just die tired.
    Last edited by Chai; 01-09-2012 at 02:14 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  6. #566
    Community Member bhgiant's Avatar
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    I agree with sending BTC +0 Hearts of wood to those characters who FEAT requirements have changed for their prestige line. I do not think that it should be a blanket send-all. The mutliclassed builds will most likely still be very viable. They will not lose out on anything they didn't already have. If, however, they decide they want to try something new, that is their choice but I don't think Turbine should pay for it. Just my opinion .

    Edit: Which brings to mind, is there going to be a feat redo with this as well? I mean, besides Dragonmarks (which are beyond needing a major overhaul). What about feats like... acrobat, or Weapon Focus. Acrobat would be awaesome if it were to give something to the prestige line. Weapon Focus should be a +2 imo.
    Last edited by bhgiant; 01-09-2012 at 02:09 PM.
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  7. #567
    Community Member Meat-Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweez View Post
    I disagree. PrE's should be free, and means to redo your toon from 1-20 if they change the enhancement system should also be free. Now, it'll still take people some time to figure out which builds are 'optimal', which fit them best, whatever - that's where they'll get money from store Hearts.

    But I also think that hearts should drop a lot more in actual chests and that it's a bit sad if they don't make enough money out of actual content (packs, races and classes) and have to make it up on stuff like hearts, so that's just me.

    So, what about 12,6,2 builds? Should they get 2 +5 hearts for free? If not, why? Why do pure or nearly pure classed ppl get more love if they give out free hearts?

    You WILL get a chance to redo you character... in terms of enchancements.

    I don't think it's sad. This is why it's ok to do some updates on PrEs WITHOUT any real pack work. It's because it will generate revenue.

    Remember that microtransactions are a major/main source of income. If we want our game to survive, it has to make $$ and stuff.

    Just my op.
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  8. #568
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyr View Post
    lol, that is right that would be very dangerous...so what is your take on my suggestion for the branch based idea for PrE's so we can get the full doomsday scenario going here.
    I like it because it has the ability to not restrict PRE simply to class but to specific pre-reqs if they intend to go that route. The current interface is already technically tree based even though it doesnt display as such. It also has the ability to open up a huge amount of options that may not even be PRE based. Who said PRE had to be the best choice for a build in the first place.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  9. #569
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geoffhanna View Post
    I am not thinking about the TWF requirement. Halflings can get a 20 starting dex, it is their very best thing, but only 17 is needed for TWF. Compare that to an elven INT 20 wizard or a horc STR 20 melee.

    The point about the backstabbing is that it is already not helpful in endgame except in limited use versus trash. More backstabbing is not an improvement.

    Acrobat is not perfect, you are right. But it is better than Assassin.

    There is more but I have to go to work. Later.
    Sorry, but I have to lol at the belief that 20 starting dex is halfling's best thing. Thats just funny. Unless your building for AC or ranged combat, that much dex is a waste on anything. The +2 starting dex does however make qualifying for feats much easier without putting as many points into it as you might have had to. Also if you think assassins are not very good at end game you've never run with even a halfway decent assassin. As cyr said, assassins are greater than acrobats.
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  10. #570
    Community Member somenewnoob's Avatar
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    I'm going to make the prediction that this will be totally FUBAR. And generate at least 20x the nerd rage of shroud blades and VIP's not getting artificer COMBINED!

    I hope I'm wrong, I really do. But I worry anytime they start effing with things that aren't broken.

    Fool me once.......
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  11. #571
    Community Member red_cardinal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    We're considering relaxing the feat requirements. Specific enhancements within a PRE may require a feat (e.g. getting Supreme Cleave, an enhancement by itself, requires Cleave), but Frenzied Berserker: Tier III may be achievable without taking Cleave at all.
    That would open up full lines of prestiges for a character. Dwarven ranger AA SD,
    Drow Cleric Radiant Assassin, etc.

  12. #572
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by red_cardinal View Post
    That would open up full lines of prestiges for a character. Dwarven ranger AA SD,
    Drow Cleric Radiant Assassin, etc.
    Will there even be enough points to go class pre tier 3 -AND- race pre tier 3? This is where the hilarity is going to ensue, as those APs are going to get tight once the number of options expands.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  13. #573
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meat-Head View Post
    Part of me agrees with this (selfishly I wanna maximize my toons too), but I disagree.


    Selling hearts is why PrE work is GOOD for revenue. We don't want PrEs to be P2P. So, this is how we do it.

    We actually WANT the company to make money to fund the work of all the new Devs that they supposedly recently hired so that they make new/better/less-bugged content etc.

    Think about it this way: More hearts sold = more likely to get GS decon in a reasonable amount of time.


    Now a SALE on hearts. That's just a good idea.
    Good point.. Yeah, we're just going to have to suck it up and buy some hearts to pay for the next Update
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  14. #574
    Community Member Cyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Good point.. Yeah, we're just going to have to suck it up and buy some hearts to pay for the next Update
    See there we go...back to normal again...

    No that is not a good thing.

    These forced purchased respecs are a reason why people leave the game. Having their character screwed with by development changes and then not being able to fully fix them loses players.

    It might be good for short term profits, but it comes at the expense of cannabalizing long term profits by shrinking the player base and generating anger in the community that results in less ongoing sales and a lower threshold towards quitting over the next thing that upsets them.
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  15. #575
    Community Member somenewnoob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyr View Post
    See there we go...back to normal again...

    No that is not a good thing.

    These forced purchased respecs are a reason why people leave the game. Having their character screwed with by development changes and then not being able to fully fix them loses players.

    It might be good for short term profits, but it comes at the expense of cannabalizing long term profits by shrinking the player base and generating anger in the community that results in less ongoing sales and a lower threshold towards quitting over the next thing that upsets them.
    Did anybody else see the irony in his post containing "suck" and "up" in it?



    (not your post, the one you quoted....and Thrudh, you know I only tease you because I lub joo!)
    Last edited by somenewnoob; 01-09-2012 at 02:36 PM.
    I'm piking at work.
    I disarm traps........with my face!
    How do I know that I am better than you are? Because I'm in Thrudh's signature and you're not. That's how.

  16. #576
    Community Member red_cardinal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark-Star View Post
    The combat mechanics and character customization of DDO are what separate it from other games.

    The direction you are going with this is music to my ears as a student of character builds and player in general.

    You sirs, are very much in touch with your community.
    True, but the sad part was that they didn't take a month, month and half 3 years ago to finish prestiges back then. Most of then were partly done.
    Well, better late than never.

  17. #577
    Developer MadFloyd's Avatar
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    Arrow

    So here is the mockup that was promised.

    To make it easier to digest, I’ve copy-pasted a section direct from Eladrin’s spec below. Again, all of this is subject to change.

    In practice, the trees will probably look different, with more sideways arrows, etc but it should give you a pretty good idea of what we have in mind.



    A single classed character will have their racial tree and the three trees that are associated with their class displayed. These trees correspond to the three Prestige Enhancement lines tied to the class.

    A multiclassed character can change a class enhancement tree with 0 points spent in it to a different class tree that is available to them using the drop down menus. For example, if this character multiclassed into Wizard, it could change the Rogue: Thief-Acrobat tree into Wizard: Archmage, Wizard: Pale Master, or Wizard: Wild Mage. Trees that have points spent in them cannot be changed to other trees. The racial tree cannot be swapped out for a different one.

    Each race will have an enhancement that adds another specific enhancement tree to the character’s available list of trees. Elves and Half-Elves, for instance, gain access to the Arcane Archer tree if they take the racial enhancement to unlock it. Dwarves gain access to Stalwart Defender. The player can choose to unlock the tree and then not use it, if they so desire. Trees unlocked in this way use the character’s total character level instead of class level for prerequisites and effects.

    Initially, players will have the bottom row of enhancements available to them. As players spend enhancement points within the current tree, additional tiers of enhancements will become available to them. Enhancements will no longer have a “total action points spent” prerequisite, this is replaced by a “total action points spent in this tree” prerequisite, and is defined by the tier the enhancement is on. (5 * [Tier of Enhancement – 1])

    Most enhancements will be able to be selected multiple times – the player will do this by selecting the same enhancement repeatedly, incrementing the number of times it has been taken, giving greater effects, up to a limit. (For example, Sneak Attack Damage can be taken 5 times.) High tiers of most enhancements will have class level requirements.

    Enhancements that are unavailable to the player are greyed out. Enhancements can still have feat or class level prerequisites – if a player does not meet these prerequisites, a red border or lock display is added to the icon. This should not be subtle, it should be absolutely clear to the player that there’s something wrong here, and they need to do something if they want this enhancement. Players can figure out what requirements they’re missing by viewing the tooltip.

    Some enhancements have other enhancements as a prerequisites chain. These are shown in the mockup with arrows in between them. Knife Attack leads to Knife Damage, which then leads to Knife Specialization. An enhancement that has another as a prerequisite cannot have a rank higher than its prerequisite, so to get Knife Damage III, the player must have Knife Attack III. To get Knife Spec IV, the player must have both Knife Attack IV and Knife Damage IV. Most enhancements cost 1 Action Point. Rare ones will cost more. Costs do not increase each time you take an enhancement.

    Each enhancement tree will have a line of enhancements that are automatically granted to the character based on the number of points spent in that tree. For example, when a character puts any 10 points in the Assassin tree, they will gain the Assassin I enhancement if they meet all other prerequisites. (Rogue level 6 in this case.) If they do not meet the prerequisites, then they will NOT gain the enhancement until they do. (Any time a player modifies their feats or gains a level, we’ll have to check access to the auto-granted enhancements.) These are shown in the mockup as the horizontal row of enhancements beneath the tree name.

    Players should be able to spend action points anywhere in the world by opening up the Enhancements UI, without needing to seek out a trainer. Enhancements can be reset on a tree-by-tree basis using the “Reset Enhancements” button near the bottom of each pane, which is only available in public areas. This has a platinum cost associated with it based on the number of points currently spent in the tree.
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  18. #578
    Community Member somenewnoob's Avatar
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    Can't say I like the idea of having action points spent requirements replaced with "spent in tree". Sounds like it will force more of a cookie cutter approach to building your enhancements.

    Not a fan of the idea at all. Especially because what will no doubt happening is that you have to take enhancements that you consider worthless to get to certain other ones, which already happens to some degree with the prestige requirements (screw you improved heal!! lol)

    Not a fan at all if it leads to more cookie cutter builds.
    I'm piking at work.
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    How do I know that I am better than you are? Because I'm in Thrudh's signature and you're not. That's how.

  19. #579
    Community Member barryman5000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    "Great explantion"
    Absolutely amazing description. I was worried about the tree design but that pic and your explanation put alot of my fears to rest.

    Hate to ask, but how many pre's are you looking at being done from this reset?

  20. #580
    Community Member dragons1ayer74's Avatar
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    The layout looks functional and interesting.

    The one thing about this I don’t like and hope I am wrong is by the looks of it multi-classed character could be getting a big nerf. Unless I am understating this wrong a multi-class character can no longer have 2+ prestige classes.

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