Unless I misunderstood your post (and that is very possible for a very wide gamma of reasons), I still don't see what you're referring to. No one is saying that you shouldn't be able to multiclass or that multiclassing should be "OMGZSOHORRIBLE", or that you shouldn't combine abilities.Originally Posted by SableShadow
I'm however done with this "3 vs 9 trees" discussion, this is just tiring since it is plainly based on suppositions. Besides, I honestly doubt if devs are interested in this topic.
For instance, I'm currently running a 6Art/7Rogue/7Fighter build for PL:Fighter. Which trees the boosts go into would be very important to my build under the new system. If Rogue Haste Boost is in Acrobat (where it is a prereq for Showtime) and Fighter Haste Boost is in PDK, for example, I lose haste boost completely. If Sneak Attack training is in the Assassin tree, as expected, rather than mechanic, I lose 6 SA damage per bolt. These are just some off-the-top examples to demonstrate the concern, an exhaustive list would be exhausting to compile.
Buffing pure? Why? They are already the best specialist. Buffing pure leads to LESS choices not more choices. A Pure 20 or minor 18/2 splash is already the single best "specialist" at almost every class and role.
No one did anything creative or thoughtful by "choosing" pure, they followed a pre set path of least resistance that gives pre definined and already meta gamed to death DC's, saves, and perks that are nearly guaranteed to be sufficient to be good at that classes main focus (unless the person does something dumb like dumping a main stat).
This is the crux of the debate, people who want predefined pathways to "the best" You already have that...
A 20 Mechanic will be the best trapper, a 20 Wiz/Sorc will have the best DC's and Spell Penn, a 20 FvS will have wings and unlimited zero cost capstone spell that either Heals with full Quicken/Max/Empower, without mana or does 1000 point light damage crits with those meta's without costing mana, a 20 Fighter will have the best Tactical DC's, Tier III Kensai for the some of the highest critical hits, and the most combat feats by a mile.
Why do you want to buff the best? It's already hard to do more than SPLASH, in fact there are only 3 or 4 classes that don't outright break if you do more than splash 3 levels.
i don't want the new enhancement system to decrease options for multi class builds, but i do think there needs to be improvements in the system to make building pure more attractive. i have a ranger that is 18 R/ 2 F. that extra 2 ranger levels and capstone aren't worth it to my Tempest. the extra feat i gained allowed more options that i can fit feats in better. some enhancements are driven more towards certain prestige lines that are kinda weak after Tier 1 or after Tier 2. that goes back to when level cap was lower and enhancements were added on when cap was raised only boosting the enhancement power.
better enhancement options, universal class capstone or choice of capstone depending on prestige (like rogue) and balance to enhancements spread out through 20 levels is what i would like to see.
Thelanis - Dragons of the Shire
Naeryna (Sun Elf 24 FvS Evoker) // Dianocia (Drow 11 Buckler o' Swashes) // Valissia (Elf 22 Shiradi Druid)
Nae haz a story. Go read it.
And defining the choice as "either what *I* want or we're WoW" is absurd ... at best.
Creativity in multi-classing is one (1) person; if it's effective, it gets copied.
I'm all for multi-classing being effective, innovative, and flavorful...the whole "Dancing Rogue" thing comes from running xRogue/1Bard to various caps in the various days.
On the other hand, the corner cases that push the devs into screwing up the quests for the rest of us? Not so much.
While I can agree in principle (any level in any class should, I submit, give you the same benefits of any other ... given what you're trying to do), in practice I don't see this happening.
And it isn't because other players don't want it to happen, it's because I don't think Turbine (or anyone, realistically) has the time n' money to put a system together that can make it happen without borking class combos in general.
Can we be done with the whole "zomg! people are jealous of my as yet undisclosed prune-based, rectal-grappling, ginger half-orc-half-human-halfling-pixie build that I yanked out of the latest splat book! Why aren't you people creative!"***general comment***
People want your current build to work; they also just want a system that isn't stupid broken, and know that the easiest way to stupid-brokenize it is to leave it entirely up to player's whim.
Last edited by Archangel666; 04-05-2013 at 12:35 AM.
Please, a dev give us a (group of?) specific point concerning enhancements to discuss.
That said some of the classes that AREN'T the best at their specialty by going pure are clearly designed and/or historically intended in D&D to be "jacks of all trades" the Bard class for example.
In the case of the ranger, the things a ranger is supoosed to be uber at, don't really exist in MMO's
"The ranger who's guiding you puts his hand up, halting the party, "something wrong with these trees, he whispers"
Animal empathy, wilderness exploration, long travel, tracking things, hunting down dinner... being in tune with nature... none of it translates well to a MMO where such things are abstracted out and mimimized because "the lowest common denominator" doesn't want careful exploration, atmosphere or "dungeon crawling", they want 5 chests and 1000xp a minute, only the best "raid loot" 100% meta gaming and efficient completions. The path of least resistance...
I was simply pointing out that there clearly are some pure classes which could use a buff and a half because the current implementation is lacking at best. An entire class should not be seen as a way to get Feats by taking six levels and no more. It should be a tough choice between taking fourteen more levels of that class and taking fourteen levels of something else and other than flavour, it isn't.
The truth is you appear to be doing just that. For the longest time multiclassing in DDO has been primarily seen as a sub optimal thing to do and has been relegated to "splashing" for the vast majority of the games life, only after ED's lowered the emphasis of Heroic levels a small amount* has the tide changed much. Outside of a few types of deeper multiclass builds that have always been semi-popular (6 ranger 12 other full BAB melee 2 evasion for example) most have been restricted to 18/2 splits that barely qualify as multiclassing at all.
Now a few scant months later post ED's and the curious admixture of slightly reduced emphasis and substantially changed perception it's time to return to the lame splash only pure class dominated days that have been the norm for most of the game? I couldn't disagree more.
I'm bored to hell of that, I'm tired of the bar always being raised to "you must have this many pure class levels to enter this ride" buffing pure class when they are already the absolute best at 90% of the tasks that are possible in the game, is a terrible idea.
* (and I do mean a small amount, the truth is this is mostly a perception by players who used to be dead set against multiclassing, and because this perception is beneficial to people who like to multiclass, no one tends to point out that multiclassing still has the same losses of DC's and Trapping ability, and Spell Pen, and Double Strike, and third tier PrE's and etc. that it always had, ED's have just made them a little less shiny and obvious)
And Yes 10,000 Stars has no business effecting arrows... sorry it just doesn't. if you want 10.000 arrows (or better yet "rain of arrows") add that as a feat w/ archery feat prereqs and free to Rangers at 16th level
Well I hope theyll add sth to caster PREs to allow e.g. sorcs to be good not nly as WFs.... Cause Id love to try this class out but will never play WF with that :male: look :/.
Or maybe theyll consider adding WF body shapes... but lets be honest. Some ppl are asking for it from ages and now I think its never gonna happen :/
Also, good multiclass builds were never seen as sub-optimal. The reason why "just go pure 20" is the default advice given to new players is that most of the possible multiclass builds are just terrible. Every level of Fighter has synergy with a Fighter. Have a level 15 Monk and you're trying to figure out what would be a good choice for level 16? Splashing a level of Monk on to your Monk character is guaranteed to be a good option. *GOOD* multiclass builds, on the other hand, provide the same kinds of synergy to the character and have been popular since day 1 and bad multiclassing remains unpopular even since the rollout of MotU.
No one in the world ever gets what they want
And that is beautiful
Everybody dies frustrated and sad
And that is beautiful
FotM builds arise due to someone noticing a synergy of abilities that they hadn't previously, or a set that addresses new demands of recent content better than other class mixes do, or have, or in a different way.
Wrong.For the longest time multiclassing in DDO has been primarily seen as a sub optimal thing to do and has been relegated to "splashing" for the vast majority of the games life, only after ED's lowered the emphasis of Heroic levels a small amount* has the tide changed much.
Multiclassing has been a fixture of DDO since its inception. Years ago we had the batman builds (fighter/paladin/rogue), and we've had the Tukaw builds, the Hurtlocker, Big Rock Candy, Blitz, and many, many others. The quality and type of multiclassing shifts as the DDO metagame shifts. EDs make multiclassing a little easier, as you note, but we've had deep multiclasses for basically the entirety of the game's life.
The addition of PrEs, and in particular tier III PrEs is a major factor in this style of multiclassing: losing that third tier is often worse than anything you'd be picking up, but not always. You must not read the class and build forums very often, because I see plenty with 12 monk, 13 rogue, 12 fighter, 12 barbarian, 12-16 bard, 11-12 ranger, that are very effective. You don't see many casters splashing other classes, let alone multiclassing deeply, because the 3.5 system strongly discourages such characters by tying caster advancement exclusively to your class, whereas martial characters are doing basically the same things regardless of their class, so you have greater flexibility in how you achieve your goals.Outside of a few types of deeper multiclass builds that have always been semi-popular (6 ranger 12 other full BAB melee 2 evasion for example) most have been restricted to 18/2 splits that barely qualify as multiclassing at all.
There are some pure classes that definitely need a boost, particularly in the later levels (ranger and bard, I'm looking at you). Pure classes are not necessarily better than pure classes. A 12 monk/6 ranger/2 fighter or artificer is going to be much better than any other archer build, except maybe a Kensei III, and that's debatable. Multiclass builds are almost always bringing more DPS than their pure class counterparts, because they are trading out small gains at later levels for bigger gains through synergy. EDs make some of those trades no longer quite as valuable, such as taking several levels of rogue or fighter for Haste Boost, but there are plenty of other combos that still really pay off.I'm bored to hell of that, I'm tired of the bar always being raised to "you must have this many pure class levels to enter this ride" buffing pure class when they are already the absolute best at 90% of the tasks that are possible in the game, is a terrible idea.
Uh...no. The people who were dead set against multiclassing are probably still going pure, because that's what they like, and how they think. The folks who looked at multiclassing as a strong and interesting option before are the ones who would view the effect EDs have on heroic levels as you describe, because they do just that: increase flexibility and expand options. As for multiclassing hurting trapping and double-strike...you're, again, Wrong.* (and I do mean a small amount, the truth is this is mostly a perception by players who used to be dead set against multiclassing, and because this perception is beneficial to people who like to multiclass, no one tends to point out that multiclassing still has the same losses of DC's and Trapping ability, and Spell Pen, and Double Strike, and third tier PrE's and etc. that it always had, ED's have just made them a little less shiny and obvious)
Trapping has zero reliance on rogue (or artificer) levels after the 1st, and it's entirely possible to build a better trapper on a non-rogue with a 1 or 2 level rogue dip than on a pure rogue. An 18 wizard/2 rogue or artificer is probably better at traps than a pure rogue. My 12 monk/6 ranger/2 artificer is almost as good at traps as my pure rogue is, and the only reason he isn't equal is because I chose to lose a little bit of that strength for some additional versatility. As for double-strike, you can get more double-strike from multiclassing than you can from staying pure. 14 paladin/6 monk is adding 10% from Zeal to Wind Stance II. Similarly you can combo paladin and ranger. You can go 10+ rogue/some amount of monk (and even add 6 ranger as well) to gain greater alacrity with Opportunist, Wind Stance (and Tempest). And spell penetration can actually be higher for some characters. How, you ask? Well, sorcerer, cleric, druid, and favored soul are all feat-starved classes, and it can be difficult to squeeze in all the feats you really want/need. Splash 1 level of wizard for one metamagic feat you would have taken anyway, and spend your new free feat slot on (Greater) Spell Penetration. You just gained a net of +1 SP. Obviously, though, multiclassing on primary casters is a poor idea, generally, as I mentioned above. That's a failing of the 3.x system.
No.And Yes 10,000 Stars has no business effecting arrows... sorry it just doesn't. if you want 10.000 arrows (or better yet "rain of arrows") add that as a feat w/ archery feat prereqs and free to Rangers at 16th level
A separate enhancement may be worthwhile, but not a feat--archers are already spending more feats on their discipline than any other character. Ten Thousand Stars works for arrows because the idea fits thematically, as they aren't all that different. It's an extension of Zen Archery, which is almost exclusively a monk feat. Splitting the arrow effect into a new enhancement, separate from the shuriken-focused one, will just change what most people spend their couple of AP on, while forcing the few people out there who use 10K Stars for both archery and shurikens to spend more AP to support their mediocre characters. That's a draw for most of the people that have 10K Stars now, and a major loss for the few who use it for all of its benefits.
The only problem I have with 10K Stars is that it so thoroughly overshadows all other archers, forcing that multiclassing. MY solution would be to do a better job of defining the class-based strengths fighters, rangers, and rogues bring to archery. The problem right now is that rate of fire trumps basically everything else, because there really isn't anything that offers a comparable benefit (Kensei III comes close).
Give fighters the ability to use tactical feats (Trip, Stunning Blow, Sunder) with ranged weapons, and they become a strong contender with higher damage per shot, Haste Boost, more feats and HP, and some martial battlefield control at range.
Give rangers some of their 3.5 spells that enhance archery, either for short bursts of high ranged alacrity, or AoE archery, some CC effects tied to archery (different from those the fighter gets), and a shorter cooldown on Manyshot (not much shorter) and they will have the most versatility in what they can do with a bow, all while being able to dump their Dex if they choose. Deepwood Sniper should also bring some special ranged abilities, such as an Assassinate-like shot, and the ability to loose arrows without breaking stealth.
Monks will have the highest RoF, and a lot of movement and defensive abilities. They also really need to be able to generate Ki with their ranged weapon (if concerned about the interaction between Ki generation and things like Manyshot and Improved Precise Shot, just set the parameters to only grant 1 Ki per shot fired that hits, rather than for each target hit, or something like that), and should be able to use any Ki Strike abilities that they would normally be able to use with a weapon, with a ranged weapon. Then they'd have a few other nifty abilities to add to their archery abilities. If you look at Pathfinder, they have a Zen Archer monk archetype that sets monks up to be archers with the highest rate of fire, among other things.
Rogues probably need to be able to pick up some special rogue feats that benefit archery, such as by granting high-prerequisite feats (like IPS), or expanding their Point Blank Range the way Deepwood Sniper does.
I play DDO because of 4 things it's DnD, Its multi-classing, its active combat system, it's flexible subscription system.
DnD - It's losing this feel slowly but surely...the lose of dice notation is a big hit...also not happy with it switching it focus to the generic...err sorry the FORGOTTEN Realms. (Not being in FR was one of the big pluses DDO had over Neverwinter Online)
Active Combat - This is getting more and more common specifically Wildstar is looking to be extremely awesome
A-La-Carte payment style aka Premium - This used to only be for bad games but the F2P/MTX market has boomed recently...some could say Turbine started it.
DnD I can get from Neverwinter if I really want...active combat + F2P/MTX style I can easily find BUT the only other MMO I've found with well done multi-classing with a community that supports it is FF11 and unfortunately it's P2P so since I refuse to support Square-Enix unless they get their act together I can't play it. So as long as that remains a dominant feature of DDO it's unlikely I'll go anywhere...if its crippled I'll likely leave simple as that.
Last edited by Failedlegend; 04-09-2013 at 04:03 PM.
Originally Posted by Cordovan
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