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  1. #5021
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artos_Fabril View Post
    Not to mention that under the new enhancement system, there would be a tier 2.5 at 15 and a tier 3 at 18, as well as a tier 1.5 for battle engineer at 9, a tier 2 at 2, a tier 2.5 at 15 and a tier 3 at 18.

    With finished Prestige lines, there will be more and different trade-offs to consider even without a 3-tree limit. The difference is, limiting the trees will impact multiclass builds without impacting pure-class builds in a way that may break some currently existing characters.

    Giving us more or better options is the "right" way to boost TRing and sales of +hearts. Breaking currently viable builds by removing options is the "wrong" way to do it.
    Only reason why certain multi class builds would break is because current options are weak, prestiges are front loaded and people found ways to get the most out of multiple classes along with the right EDs. It sounds to me the new enhancement system would attempt to be more balancing and offer better pros to stay pure or mostly pure. Cant fault the people for taking advantage of an old system and building extremely powerful multi class builds, but at least it seems theres an attempt for better balance and choices. We will see soon enough if thats what happens and im sure there will be rants about nerfing my build.

  2. #5022
    Community Member Blayster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SableShadow
    If the level / class breaks are all the in the same, well-known places, how is that *not* cookie cutter?
    Unless I misunderstood your post (and that is very possible for a very wide gamma of reasons), I still don't see what you're referring to. No one is saying that you shouldn't be able to multiclass or that multiclassing should be "OMGZSOHORRIBLE", or that you shouldn't combine abilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    Only reason why certain multi class (...) im sure there will be rants about nerfing my build.
    Dude, I wish this were my post. These are exactly my thoughts.

    I'm however done with this "3 vs 9 trees" discussion, this is just tiring since it is plainly based on suppositions. Besides, I honestly doubt if devs are interested in this topic.

  3. #5023
    Community Member Artos_Fabril's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    Only reason why certain multi class builds would break is because current options are weak, prestiges are front loaded and people found ways to get the most out of multiple classes along with the right EDs. It sounds to me the new enhancement system would attempt to be more balancing and offer better pros to stay pure or mostly pure. Cant fault the people for taking advantage of an old system and building extremely powerful multi class builds, but at least it seems theres an attempt for better balance and choices. We will see soon enough if thats what happens and im sure there will be rants about nerfing my build.
    What those arguing against the three-tree limit see as potentially breaking multi-class builds are certain key or highly desirable enhancements being moved into specific trees.

    For instance, I'm currently running a 6Art/7Rogue/7Fighter build for PL:Fighter. Which trees the boosts go into would be very important to my build under the new system. If Rogue Haste Boost is in Acrobat (where it is a prereq for Showtime) and Fighter Haste Boost is in PDK, for example, I lose haste boost completely. If Sneak Attack training is in the Assassin tree, as expected, rather than mechanic, I lose 6 SA damage per bolt. These are just some off-the-top examples to demonstrate the concern, an exhaustive list would be exhausting to compile.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    It sounds to me the new enhancement system would attempt to be more balancing and offer better pros to stay pure or mostly pure.
    If they were just offering more options to pure class characters, without removing them from multi-class characters, that would be great. In fact, I specifically stated that that is the "right" way change the system, and it would come regardless of the tree limit with smoother PrE progression, completed PrEs to tier 3, and allowing pure class characters to take multiple PrEs within their class. It is unnecessary, and harmful to one of the best aspects of the game, to place additional restrictions on multi-class characters, who already give up depth for breadth, to then limit their breadth to that of pure classes. Since in no scenario are multi-class characters getting more than the 80AP that pure-class characters get, and they are still limited by their class levels, there is no compelling reason to further limit them to the same number of trees that pure-class characters have access to.

  4. #5024
    Community Member Blayster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artos_Fabril View Post
    If they were just offering more options to pure class characters, without removing them from multi-class characters, that would be great.
    Please, correct me if I am wrong, but in other words what you mean is:
    "Im okay with buffing pure classes, but not with nerfing multiclasses"

  5. #5025

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blayster View Post
    No one is saying that you shouldn't be able to multiclass or that multiclassing should be "OMGZSOHORRIBLE", or that you shouldn't combine abilities.
    Exactly. I was trying to respond to some of the hyperbole ... probably would have made more sense with less nyquil. :/

    Quote Originally Posted by Blayster View Post
    I'm however done with this "3 vs 9 trees" discussion, this is just tiring since it is plainly based on suppositions. Besides, I honestly doubt if devs are interested in this topic.
    Pretty much that.
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  6. #5026
    Community Member IronClan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    It sounds to me the new enhancement system would attempt to be more balancing and offer better pros to stay pure or mostly pure. Cant fault the people for taking advantage of an old system and building extremely powerful multi class builds, but at least it seems theres an attempt for better balance and choices.
    So this basically breaks down into a "I want less multiclassing" versus "I want at least the same amount of multiclassing".

    Buffing pure? Why? They are already the best specialist. Buffing pure leads to LESS choices not more choices. A Pure 20 or minor 18/2 splash is already the single best "specialist" at almost every class and role.

    No one did anything creative or thoughtful by "choosing" pure, they followed a pre set path of least resistance that gives pre definined and already meta gamed to death DC's, saves, and perks that are nearly guaranteed to be sufficient to be good at that classes main focus (unless the person does something dumb like dumping a main stat).

    This is the crux of the debate, people who want predefined pathways to "the best" You already have that...

    A 20 Mechanic will be the best trapper, a 20 Wiz/Sorc will have the best DC's and Spell Penn, a 20 FvS will have wings and unlimited zero cost capstone spell that either Heals with full Quicken/Max/Empower, without mana or does 1000 point light damage crits with those meta's without costing mana, a 20 Fighter will have the best Tactical DC's, Tier III Kensai for the some of the highest critical hits, and the most combat feats by a mile.

    Why do you want to buff the best? It's already hard to do more than SPLASH, in fact there are only 3 or 4 classes that don't outright break if you do more than splash 3 levels.

  7. #5027
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    So this basically breaks down into a "I want less multiclassing" versus "I want at least the same amount of multiclassing".

    Buffing pure? Why? They are already the best specialist. Buffing pure leads to LESS choices not more choices. A Pure 20 or minor 18/2 splash is already the single best "specialist" at almost every class and role.

    No one did anything creative or thoughtful by "choosing" pure, they followed a pre set path of least resistance that gives pre definined and already meta gamed to death DC's, saves, and perks that are nearly guaranteed to be sufficient to be good at that classes main focus (unless the person does something dumb like dumping a main stat).

    This is the crux of the debate, people who want predefined pathways to "the best" You already have that...

    A 20 Mechanic will be the best trapper, a 20 Wiz/Sorc will have the best DC's and Spell Penn, a 20 FvS will have wings and unlimited zero cost capstone spell that either Heals with full Quicken/Max/Empower, without mana or does 1000 point light damage crits with those meta's without costing mana, a 20 Fighter will have the best Tactical DC's, Tier III Kensai for the some of the highest critical hits, and the most combat feats by a mile.

    Why do you want to buff the best? It's already hard to do more than SPLASH, in fact there are only 3 or 4 classes that don't outright break if you do more than splash 3 levels.
    there are specific multiclass builds that can outshine a pure class. whats the flavor of the month now? theres always some mix build that is considered better than <insert pure class>.

    i don't want the new enhancement system to decrease options for multi class builds, but i do think there needs to be improvements in the system to make building pure more attractive. i have a ranger that is 18 R/ 2 F. that extra 2 ranger levels and capstone aren't worth it to my Tempest. the extra feat i gained allowed more options that i can fit feats in better. some enhancements are driven more towards certain prestige lines that are kinda weak after Tier 1 or after Tier 2. that goes back to when level cap was lower and enhancements were added on when cap was raised only boosting the enhancement power.

    better enhancement options, universal class capstone or choice of capstone depending on prestige (like rogue) and balance to enhancements spread out through 20 levels is what i would like to see.

  8. #5028
    Community Member Antheal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SableShadow View Post
    If the level / class breaks are all the in the same, well-known places, how is that *not* cookie cutter?
    The only things I care about taking from the Enhancement Pass are the Jorasco Dragonmark Heir, and the Healing-based Favoured Soul tree.

    Then I'm going to make a Radiant Servant/Beacon of Hope d'Jorasco and my life will be complete.

    P.S. CLERIC DOMAINS PLEASE!

  9. #5029
    Community Member dlsidhe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antheal View Post
    The only things I care about taking from the Enhancement Pass are the Jorasco Dragonmark Heir, and the Healing-based Favoured Soul tree.

    Then I'm going to make a Radiant Servant/Beacon of Hope d'Jorasco and my life will be complete.

    P.S. CLERIC DOMAINS PLEASE!
    ...got leaked during U17 on Lamma briefly. No real info, but there are domains.
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  10. #5030

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    This is the crux of the debate, people who want predefined pathways to "the best"
    Repeating the same mantra over and over again means jack.
    And defining the choice as "either what *I* want or we're WoW" is absurd ... at best.

    Creativity in multi-classing is one (1) person; if it's effective, it gets copied.

    I'm all for multi-classing being effective, innovative, and flavorful...the whole "Dancing Rogue" thing comes from running xRogue/1Bard to various caps in the various days.
    On the other hand, the corner cases that push the devs into screwing up the quests for the rest of us? Not so much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Artos_Fabril View Post
    For instance, I'm currently running a 6Art/7Rogue/7Fighter build for PL:Fighter.
    Are you seriously saying "my minimalist gear, PL-only build needs to be just as effective as a best spec build, or this thing is broken"?

    While I can agree in principle (any level in any class should, I submit, give you the same benefits of any other ... given what you're trying to do), in practice I don't see this happening.
    And it isn't because other players don't want it to happen, it's because I don't think Turbine (or anyone, realistically) has the time n' money to put a system together that can make it happen without borking class combos in general.

    ***general comment***
    Can we be done with the whole "zomg! people are jealous of my as yet undisclosed prune-based, rectal-grappling, ginger half-orc-half-human-halfling-pixie build that I yanked out of the latest splat book! Why aren't you people creative!"

    People want your current build to work; they also just want a system that isn't stupid broken, and know that the easiest way to stupid-brokenize it is to leave it entirely up to player's whim.

    Pax.
    Last edited by SableShadow; 04-04-2013 at 11:22 PM.
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  11. #5031
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Buffing pure? Why? They are already the best specialist. Buffing pure leads to LESS choices not more choices. A Pure 20 or minor 18/2 splash is already the single best "specialist" at almost every class and role.
    Hello, I'm a pure Ranger, I don't need buffing because I can summon a CR 4 Young Razorcat at level 14 and my Capstone is uber! It gives 12.5% Ranged Alacrity! (It says 25% but you know how that pesky Ranged Alacrity is, can't have it applying to actually knocking an arrow, no, no, that would be silly! It should apply only to releasing the arrow, 'cause that involves opening fingers and that's the most time consuming part of Archery obviously).
    Last edited by Archangel666; 04-04-2013 at 11:35 PM.

  12. #5032
    Community Member Blayster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blayster View Post
    give us a topic, and then we give our thoughts/suggestions on the specified topic. That works better than shooting in the dark, for both sides, really.
    I'll re-quote this, just to make sure that eventually a dev will reply to this specific post. I'm eager to give suggestions or to discuss possible new content with the rest of the community, but I personally need a subject, otherwise I'll feel like talking to the wind.

    Please, a dev give us a (group of?) specific point concerning enhancements to discuss.

  13. #5033
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Some of you might dismiss this as ‘fixing something that isn’t broken’ and that’s fine – it’s totally subjective – but, hey, I’m giving you a heads up just the same.

    We hate the Enhancement UI. It’s been 4 years and I still cringe every time I see it, let alone use it. It does a poor job of letting players plan out character goals and you need the patience of a saint to use it. I could go on and on, but I won’t (feel free to use this thread to vent your frustrations with it if you share our opinion).

    We’re re-doing it – replacing it with a tree-based design that should make character planning and advancement much better and also have the added benefit of making it easier for us to implement new enhancements (PrE’s anyone?).

    It will also be the foundation for some future work.

    It does mean that when this goes live, all of you will have your enhancements reset and you will have to re-spend your action points. Some enhancements will remain the same, but many will be new. The changed enhancements will also help balance out many classes (think augmentation here, not nerfs). I appreciate that forced change can be very stressful and realize that this will be major inconvenience for those who don’t enjoy having to make a ton of decisions – especially when there are ‘new’ enhancements to digest, but have no doubt it will be worth it in the end.

    I hope that many of you will welcome this sort of change, but either way, feel free to share your thoughts and concerns. Again, I invite PMs for those who prefer to voice their opinions that way.

    EDIT: See a mockup/explanation on page 29 of this thread: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...&postcount=578
    Why are you augmenting things? The game is SOOOO easy already. I came back from a long break to try "Epic" Gianthold and breezed through "Epic" hard soloing. Feels like a kids game its so easy. If your trying to make a mostly Kids game then i suppose you have achieved your goals. AFK 1 year. DDO 2 would be your best idea and make it a challenge for every type of player, goodbye.
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  14. #5034
    Community Member IronClan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archangel666 View Post
    Hello, I'm a pure Ranger
    Notice how I said "almost every class"?

    That said some of the classes that AREN'T the best at their specialty by going pure are clearly designed and/or historically intended in D&D to be "jacks of all trades" the Bard class for example.

    In the case of the ranger, the things a ranger is supoosed to be uber at, don't really exist in MMO's

    DM:
    "The ranger who's guiding you puts his hand up, halting the party, "something wrong with these trees, he whispers"

    Animal empathy, wilderness exploration, long travel, tracking things, hunting down dinner... being in tune with nature... none of it translates well to a MMO where such things are abstracted out and mimimized because "the lowest common denominator" doesn't want careful exploration, atmosphere or "dungeon crawling", they want 5 chests and 1000xp a minute, only the best "raid loot" 100% meta gaming and efficient completions. The path of least resistance...

  15. #5035
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Notice how I said "almost every class"?

    That said some of the classes that AREN'T the best at their specialty by going pure are clearly designed and/or historically intended in D&D to be "jacks of all trades" the Bard class for example.

    In the case of the ranger, the things a ranger is supoosed to be uber at, don't really exist in MMO's

    DM:
    "The ranger who's guiding you puts his hand up, halting the party, "something wrong with these trees, he whispers"

    Animal empathy, wilderness exploration, long travel, tracking things, hunting down dinner... being in tune with nature... none of it translates well to a MMO where such things are abstracted out and mimimized because "the lowest common denominator" doesn't want careful exploration, atmosphere or "dungeon crawling", they want 5 chests and 1000xp a minute, only the best "raid loot" 100% meta gaming and efficient completions. The path of least resistance...
    I don't disagree with you and you did indeed say almost every class.

    I was simply pointing out that there clearly are some pure classes which could use a buff and a half because the current implementation is lacking at best. An entire class should not be seen as a way to get Feats by taking six levels and no more. It should be a tough choice between taking fourteen more levels of that class and taking fourteen levels of something else and other than flavour, it isn't.

  16. #5036
    Community Member IronClan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    there are specific multiclass builds that can outshine a pure class. whats the flavor of the month now? theres always some mix build that is considered better than <insert pure class>.

    better enhancement options, universal class capstone or choice of capstone depending on prestige (like rogue) and balance to enhancements spread out through 20 levels is what i would like to see.
    FOTM builds are a result of min/maxing by people who are bored of being the best at the predefined specialties that are almost always done best by a pure 20. Sometimes they are a result of tweaks to mobs (Insta kill saves in eGH for example, making Shiradi magic missile nuking even more attractive) that make the specialty less attractive temporarily. This comes and goes with new packs, and frankly should never be in the discussion. Not long ago Archmagi Evoker PrE was considered a gimpy choice. If your reason for buffing pure classes that are already CLEARLY superior at almost every specialty in the game, is that FotM builds pop up, then I think you're basing your opinion on a very short sighted view of the game.

    The truth is you appear to be doing just that. For the longest time multiclassing in DDO has been primarily seen as a sub optimal thing to do and has been relegated to "splashing" for the vast majority of the games life, only after ED's lowered the emphasis of Heroic levels a small amount* has the tide changed much. Outside of a few types of deeper multiclass builds that have always been semi-popular (6 ranger 12 other full BAB melee 2 evasion for example) most have been restricted to 18/2 splits that barely qualify as multiclassing at all.

    Now a few scant months later post ED's and the curious admixture of slightly reduced emphasis and substantially changed perception it's time to return to the lame splash only pure class dominated days that have been the norm for most of the game? I couldn't disagree more.

    I'm bored to hell of that, I'm tired of the bar always being raised to "you must have this many pure class levels to enter this ride" buffing pure class when they are already the absolute best at 90% of the tasks that are possible in the game, is a terrible idea.

    * (and I do mean a small amount, the truth is this is mostly a perception by players who used to be dead set against multiclassing, and because this perception is beneficial to people who like to multiclass, no one tends to point out that multiclassing still has the same losses of DC's and Trapping ability, and Spell Pen, and Double Strike, and third tier PrE's and etc. that it always had, ED's have just made them a little less shiny and obvious)

    Quote Originally Posted by Archangel666 View Post
    I don't disagree with you and you did indeed say almost every class.

    I was simply pointing out that there clearly are some pure classes which could use a buff and a half because the current implementation is lacking at best. An entire class should not be seen as a way to get Feats by taking six levels and no more. It should be a tough choice between taking fourteen more levels of that class and taking fourteen levels of something else and other than flavour, it isn't.
    I agree some Classes need buffs to return to relevance... and this enhancement pass is an opportunity to help make that happen. But that's not really a Multiclass versus pure thing. And really it needs to not be strictly an enhancement thing. Bard's needed a severe boost in Spells during that spell pass that didn't happen. Ranger's feat abilities have always been too front loaded, and their later perks too irrelevant or not working (Ranged alacrity being pretty nearly half).

    And Yes 10,000 Stars has no business effecting arrows... sorry it just doesn't. if you want 10.000 arrows (or better yet "rain of arrows") add that as a feat w/ archery feat prereqs and free to Rangers at 16th level
    Last edited by IronClan; 04-08-2013 at 12:51 PM.

  17. #5037
    Community Member Kayla93's Avatar
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    Well I hope theyll add sth to caster PREs to allow e.g. sorcs to be good not nly as WFs.... Cause Id love to try this class out but will never play WF with that :male: look :/.
    Or maybe theyll consider adding WF body shapes... but lets be honest. Some ppl are asking for it from ages and now I think its never gonna happen :/

  18. #5038
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    The truth is you appear to be doing just that. For the longest time multiclassing in DDO has been primarily seen as a sub optimal thing to do and has been relegated to "splashing" for the vast majority of the games life, only after ED's lowered the emphasis of Heroic levels a small amount* has the tide changed much. Outside of a few types of deeper multiclass builds that have always been semi-popular (6 ranger 12 other full BAB melee 2 evasion for example) most have been restricted to 18/2 splits that barely qualify as multiclassing at all.
    18/2 in 3E is very close to what you saw in 2nd Edition as a 50/50 split. The 2nd Edition multiclass rules split all of your XP evenly, but because the rate of XP required per level was exponential, you consistently ended up just 1 level behind your party. By the time you hit 20, everyone else would be a level 20 Fighter or a level 20 Cleric, etc. while you were a level 19 Fighter/19 Wizard. But because you only took the best number from each side instead of adding them together, you were only slightly more powerful than a level 19 Fighter or a level 19 Wizard. Because levels in 3E add their features and bonuses and stats directly to each other and because most classes are strongly front loaded, the only significant difference between 18/2 3E and 19/19 in 2E is that spell progression.

    Also, good multiclass builds were never seen as sub-optimal. The reason why "just go pure 20" is the default advice given to new players is that most of the possible multiclass builds are just terrible. Every level of Fighter has synergy with a Fighter. Have a level 15 Monk and you're trying to figure out what would be a good choice for level 16? Splashing a level of Monk on to your Monk character is guaranteed to be a good option. *GOOD* multiclass builds, on the other hand, provide the same kinds of synergy to the character and have been popular since day 1 and bad multiclassing remains unpopular even since the rollout of MotU.
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  19. #5039
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    FOTM builds are a result of min/maxing by people who are bored of being the best at the predefined specialties that are almost always done best by a pure 20.
    Wrong.

    FotM builds arise due to someone noticing a synergy of abilities that they hadn't previously, or a set that addresses new demands of recent content better than other class mixes do, or have, or in a different way.
    For the longest time multiclassing in DDO has been primarily seen as a sub optimal thing to do and has been relegated to "splashing" for the vast majority of the games life, only after ED's lowered the emphasis of Heroic levels a small amount* has the tide changed much.
    Wrong.

    Multiclassing has been a fixture of DDO since its inception. Years ago we had the batman builds (fighter/paladin/rogue), and we've had the Tukaw builds, the Hurtlocker, Big Rock Candy, Blitz, and many, many others. The quality and type of multiclassing shifts as the DDO metagame shifts. EDs make multiclassing a little easier, as you note, but we've had deep multiclasses for basically the entirety of the game's life.

    Outside of a few types of deeper multiclass builds that have always been semi-popular (6 ranger 12 other full BAB melee 2 evasion for example) most have been restricted to 18/2 splits that barely qualify as multiclassing at all.
    The addition of PrEs, and in particular tier III PrEs is a major factor in this style of multiclassing: losing that third tier is often worse than anything you'd be picking up, but not always. You must not read the class and build forums very often, because I see plenty with 12 monk, 13 rogue, 12 fighter, 12 barbarian, 12-16 bard, 11-12 ranger, that are very effective. You don't see many casters splashing other classes, let alone multiclassing deeply, because the 3.5 system strongly discourages such characters by tying caster advancement exclusively to your class, whereas martial characters are doing basically the same things regardless of their class, so you have greater flexibility in how you achieve your goals.
    I'm bored to hell of that, I'm tired of the bar always being raised to "you must have this many pure class levels to enter this ride" buffing pure class when they are already the absolute best at 90% of the tasks that are possible in the game, is a terrible idea.
    There are some pure classes that definitely need a boost, particularly in the later levels (ranger and bard, I'm looking at you). Pure classes are not necessarily better than pure classes. A 12 monk/6 ranger/2 fighter or artificer is going to be much better than any other archer build, except maybe a Kensei III, and that's debatable. Multiclass builds are almost always bringing more DPS than their pure class counterparts, because they are trading out small gains at later levels for bigger gains through synergy. EDs make some of those trades no longer quite as valuable, such as taking several levels of rogue or fighter for Haste Boost, but there are plenty of other combos that still really pay off.
    * (and I do mean a small amount, the truth is this is mostly a perception by players who used to be dead set against multiclassing, and because this perception is beneficial to people who like to multiclass, no one tends to point out that multiclassing still has the same losses of DC's and Trapping ability, and Spell Pen, and Double Strike, and third tier PrE's and etc. that it always had, ED's have just made them a little less shiny and obvious)
    Uh...no. The people who were dead set against multiclassing are probably still going pure, because that's what they like, and how they think. The folks who looked at multiclassing as a strong and interesting option before are the ones who would view the effect EDs have on heroic levels as you describe, because they do just that: increase flexibility and expand options. As for multiclassing hurting trapping and double-strike...you're, again, Wrong.

    Trapping has zero reliance on rogue (or artificer) levels after the 1st, and it's entirely possible to build a better trapper on a non-rogue with a 1 or 2 level rogue dip than on a pure rogue. An 18 wizard/2 rogue or artificer is probably better at traps than a pure rogue. My 12 monk/6 ranger/2 artificer is almost as good at traps as my pure rogue is, and the only reason he isn't equal is because I chose to lose a little bit of that strength for some additional versatility. As for double-strike, you can get more double-strike from multiclassing than you can from staying pure. 14 paladin/6 monk is adding 10% from Zeal to Wind Stance II. Similarly you can combo paladin and ranger. You can go 10+ rogue/some amount of monk (and even add 6 ranger as well) to gain greater alacrity with Opportunist, Wind Stance (and Tempest). And spell penetration can actually be higher for some characters. How, you ask? Well, sorcerer, cleric, druid, and favored soul are all feat-starved classes, and it can be difficult to squeeze in all the feats you really want/need. Splash 1 level of wizard for one metamagic feat you would have taken anyway, and spend your new free feat slot on (Greater) Spell Penetration. You just gained a net of +1 SP. Obviously, though, multiclassing on primary casters is a poor idea, generally, as I mentioned above. That's a failing of the 3.x system.

    And Yes 10,000 Stars has no business effecting arrows... sorry it just doesn't. if you want 10.000 arrows (or better yet "rain of arrows") add that as a feat w/ archery feat prereqs and free to Rangers at 16th level
    No.

    A separate enhancement may be worthwhile, but not a feat--archers are already spending more feats on their discipline than any other character. Ten Thousand Stars works for arrows because the idea fits thematically, as they aren't all that different. It's an extension of Zen Archery, which is almost exclusively a monk feat. Splitting the arrow effect into a new enhancement, separate from the shuriken-focused one, will just change what most people spend their couple of AP on, while forcing the few people out there who use 10K Stars for both archery and shurikens to spend more AP to support their mediocre characters. That's a draw for most of the people that have 10K Stars now, and a major loss for the few who use it for all of its benefits.

    The only problem I have with 10K Stars is that it so thoroughly overshadows all other archers, forcing that multiclassing. MY solution would be to do a better job of defining the class-based strengths fighters, rangers, and rogues bring to archery. The problem right now is that rate of fire trumps basically everything else, because there really isn't anything that offers a comparable benefit (Kensei III comes close).

    Give fighters the ability to use tactical feats (Trip, Stunning Blow, Sunder) with ranged weapons, and they become a strong contender with higher damage per shot, Haste Boost, more feats and HP, and some martial battlefield control at range.

    Give rangers some of their 3.5 spells that enhance archery, either for short bursts of high ranged alacrity, or AoE archery, some CC effects tied to archery (different from those the fighter gets), and a shorter cooldown on Manyshot (not much shorter) and they will have the most versatility in what they can do with a bow, all while being able to dump their Dex if they choose. Deepwood Sniper should also bring some special ranged abilities, such as an Assassinate-like shot, and the ability to loose arrows without breaking stealth.

    Monks will have the highest RoF, and a lot of movement and defensive abilities. They also really need to be able to generate Ki with their ranged weapon (if concerned about the interaction between Ki generation and things like Manyshot and Improved Precise Shot, just set the parameters to only grant 1 Ki per shot fired that hits, rather than for each target hit, or something like that), and should be able to use any Ki Strike abilities that they would normally be able to use with a weapon, with a ranged weapon. Then they'd have a few other nifty abilities to add to their archery abilities. If you look at Pathfinder, they have a Zen Archer monk archetype that sets monks up to be archers with the highest rate of fire, among other things.

    Rogues probably need to be able to pick up some special rogue feats that benefit archery, such as by granting high-prerequisite feats (like IPS), or expanding their Point Blank Range the way Deepwood Sniper does.
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  20. #5040
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    stuff - snipped due to length look up one post please
    Yes allk that is true proving that multi-classes and single-classes are fairly well balbced right now with any class that have useful tier 3 PrEs...once all classes have tier 3 PrEs (enhancement system currently has 2 pres for each class at least) it will be almost perfect (it will NEVER be perfect) but that the 3 tree limit suddenly puts a huge damper on multi-classing making single-class builds the clear superior option and multi-classing gets regulated to "flavour" builds. Which if it weren't for the fact that my static group doesn't care (I could play a 7Sorc/7Wiz/7Cleric and they wouldn't care) I'd probably stop playing.

    I play DDO because of 4 things it's DnD, Its multi-classing, its active combat system, it's flexible subscription system.

    DnD - It's losing this feel slowly but surely...the lose of dice notation is a big hit...also not happy with it switching it focus to the generic...err sorry the FORGOTTEN Realms. (Not being in FR was one of the big pluses DDO had over Neverwinter Online)

    Active Combat - This is getting more and more common specifically Wildstar is looking to be extremely awesome

    A-La-Carte payment style aka Premium - This used to only be for bad games but the F2P/MTX market has boomed recently...some could say Turbine started it.

    DnD I can get from Neverwinter if I really want...active combat + F2P/MTX style I can easily find BUT the only other MMO I've found with well done multi-classing with a community that supports it is FF11 and unfortunately it's P2P so since I refuse to support Square-Enix unless they get their act together I can't play it. So as long as that remains a dominant feature of DDO it's unlikely I'll go anywhere...if its crippled I'll likely leave simple as that.
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 04-09-2013 at 03:03 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

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