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  1. #5001
    Community Member IronClan's Avatar
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    Another more oblique example of how I worry about the new system homogenizing old cool synergies out: Right now you can have a Bard with sonic spell power 80, then splash Wiz and add +50 because the Wiz Electric/Sonic doesn't close out the Bard's Healing/Sonic, and then splash Druid and add +20 (again none of the three cancel the other two). The most "specialized" "Sonic Focused" Bard is using some splashes to boost Spell Power from 80 to as much as 150 (at 16 Bard 3 wiz 1 Druid which also allows +4% crit chance and +25% crit damage) this leaves the Bard with full spell levels (Greater Shout) and using something I looked at recently for inspiration: Hammer of the Leaden Clouds with 21 implement + 120 Sonic SP and Superior Sonic Lore. 25% crit chance, 291% Spell power. Before Max+Empower meta's

    I am 100% sure all "loop holes" like this will be homogenized out by the new system. Meaning an already weak class using an already weak spell (Greater Shout) will be proxy nerfed. I realize this is an odd example but it illustrates the point: smoothing enhancements over too much can lead to coolness removed.
    Last edited by IronClan; 04-02-2013 at 08:21 PM.

  2. #5002
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    Varg,

    I would love to spin my thoughts in this thread but at this point I am so reluctant to get my hopes up on any specific build or concept until I know what scope the enhancements are being developed on. A dev recap or locking this thread and starting a new one with updated data would be appreciated. On the whole I can give a list of preferences I would like to see in the enhancements but anything specific would be a waste of time.

    -Three trees per class with significant variation available with each tree having an impressive level 18 ability and a truly defining level 20 ability that compensates you for not multiclassing.
    -A racial tree that blends two different thematically applicable prestige trees for the race from the class trees which still synergize with the in-class trees.
    -At least one throwing weapons build, ie 2wf feats applying to thrown weapons and adding returning thrown weapons to the loot tables rather than as a special bonus consumable ranged item.
    -No built in cash grabs of any type, the shard AH was more than enough.

  3. #5003
    Community Member Blayster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scraap
    Stop looking at my character sheet
    I swear I didn't! xD

    Quote Originally Posted by Scraap
    I'd actually already suggested the notion of treating enhancement points like skill-points for instance
    That is actually a nice suggestion, but I don't think it is enough. Maybe I'm biased due to PnP. In PnP you not only have exp penalty for multiclassing, but you also cannot max cross-class skill even if you have enough points. I find this disturbingly unfair, really, and this is coming from someone with a trapper ranger. Again, just another example, I don't think the problem concerns trappers or skills only.

    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan
    But they can be significantly better if one opts to... And often are.
    (...)
    (Dang looking it over now I want to make a 14 Rogue Mech II 6 Arti Battle Engineer, but that is what I love about DDO... the possibilities)
    This is exactly my point. What is the advantage of a 20 Rogue Mech II over your proposed multiclass, trap-wise speaking?

    Quote Originally Posted by EnjoyTheJourney
    And that's exactly how I'd like DDO to be; if you want rewards from specializing, then specialize. If not, then don't.
    +1

    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan
    Meaning an already weak class using an already weak spell (Greater Shout) will be proxy nerfed. I realize this is an odd example but it illustrates the point: smoothing enhancements over too much can lead to coolness removed.
    What if the intention of the devs is exactly to avoid this kind of odd (using your words) combination? What if they think "bards are not supposed to be caster DPS... let's remove this...". You may find it "uncool", some other people might find it great. You must have in mind that this kind of combo often leads to OP (not particularly in your example), which leads to nerf, which leads to mass cry.

    Btw, they *may* add a sonic spell line for bards. I'd honestly find CC more suitable for bards than DPS. Check "Wall of Sound" in DDO wiki.

  4. #5004
    Community Member Blayster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille
    We're still here. Reading.
    Oh, of course you are! You're just not replying!

    I understand that you cannot release info just yet. So, let us play a game here instead... give us a topic, and then we give our thoughts/suggestions on the specified topic. That works better than shooting in the dark, for both sides, really.

  5. #5005
    Community Member kingfisher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Enhancements. Devs.

    We're still here. Reading.
    trees. how many? ridiculous arbitrary limitations. done away with or still present and ready to ruin our day? multiclass nerfed to oblivion. say it aint so. stop reading for a moment and start typing.

  6. #5006
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Enhancements. Devs.

    We're still here. Reading.
    Can you please actually give us some information?
    Personal d000m level: 83%

    Quote Originally Posted by zwiebelring View Post
    Ape_Man does clever trolling nothing more. Don't feed him/her.

  7. #5007
    2015 DDO Players Council Seikojin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Another more oblique example of how I worry about the new system homogenizing old cool synergies out: Right now you can have a Bard with sonic spell power 80, then splash Wiz and add +50 because the Wiz Electric/Sonic doesn't close out the Bard's Healing/Sonic, and then splash Druid and add +20 (again none of the three cancel the other two). The most "specialized" "Sonic Focused" Bard is using some splashes to boost Spell Power from 80 to as much as 150 (at 16 Bard 3 wiz 1 Druid which also allows +4% crit chance and +25% crit damage) this leaves the Bard with full spell levels (Greater Shout) and using something I looked at recently for inspiration: Hammer of the Leaden Clouds with 21 implement + 120 Sonic SP and Superior Sonic Lore. 25% crit chance, 291% Spell power. Before Max+Empower meta's

    I am 100% sure all "loop holes" like this will be homogenized out by the new system. Meaning an already weak class using an already weak spell (Greater Shout) will be proxy nerfed. I realize this is an odd example but it illustrates the point: smoothing enhancements over too much can lead to coolness removed.
    Or the path in a pure class may get somethign more enticing overall; the same damage boost, but also class specific flavor. Like a generic sonic boost for bards that as you get the higher tiers not only has increased difficulty, but can affect more targets, auto song proc, etc.

  8. #5008
    Community Member lugoman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Enhancements. Devs.

    We're still here. Reading.
    Pure kensei fighters need some help.

  9. #5009
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Enhancements. Devs.

    We're still here. Reading.
    Enhancement Beta. Early Spring.

    We're still here. Waiting.

    --

    But, as I can't help but being just a smart-aleck, I feel the need to explain:
    When you presented the tables before, it generated a mountain of discussion that you've probably shirked off. It's monumental to read the opinions of just about every single poster in two massive threads.

    Right now, the only thing that will satiate the bulk of the forum is to reveal concrete information about what you guys are gonna do with the enhancement pass. It's disheartening that it's so difficult, it has to span two missed updates before we get some "statement" determining when it's gonna happen.

    Now: it's great to know you're still looking at the thread, probably placing that as a bookmark to determine where you are. However, it's not working anymore.

    Any bit is fine. For example, what PrE tiers you're planning to work with Barbarian and Cleric, who by this time and age STILL have only one PrE (I would also say Artificer, but that's somewhat irrelevant because it's a newer class). Or, for example, how you plan to merge the Paladin's Hunter of the Dead with Knight of the Chalice: this is mostly personal, but I'm just wondering how you'll make it any different to Holy/Retribution/Protection, or else once again hear the cries of people saying that you're making the DDO Paladin too similar to WoW, hence invoking lack of originality and whatnot.

    Both threads have served their purpose. Whenever you're ready to discuss the enhancement pass beta, it's better to close these threads, trying to collapse the bulk of the discussion in a few paragraphs. Monumental task, yes, but not impossible. That might imply you've actually read the threads well enough to condensate the entire discussion in a series of posts where everyone can be up-to-date on the situation. It's only fair: no one has enough time to skim through pages and pages of people basically going back and forth on their ideal way to solve the enhancement pass situation. Focus on the common concerns: such as how the enhancement pass will benefit (or hose) multiclassing, which is a big concern.

    Providing us that meat will probably spark new discussion, allow for novel ideas, and make people get excited for the incoming change (or perhaps feed the chants of DOOOOO0000OO000!!1!!!!). By this point, reading is not enough; it's tantamount to saying "we've got a plan, it's almost complete, we're doing the necessary tweaks", but actually trying to improvise as the deadline approaches.

    Not everyone is going to be happy about the changes. That's a fact. I, for example, loathe the idea of giving Drow free access to the Tempest PrE, because I find it insulting. I have only one Drow, who just happens to be a ranger, but the LAST thing I want to do with him is turn him into a Drizzt clone. Just hearing about how Tempest will allow you to use Scimitars as light weapons makes my herniated esophagus swell with indignation: I don't want Twinkle, I don't want Icingdeath, I want Hank's Energy Bow for the sake of all that's good and sacred!! If I want to become an Arcane Archer, I better darn make him a Ranger or an Elf, but if I want to do it with Drow, I do it with a Ranger! If anyone wants to make a Drizzt clone, just make him take levels in Ranger, and spend one of his slots increasing stuff through Ranger, while he also gets levels in Fighter and Barbarian (if his stats on the Forgotten Realms supplement are actually fair). I also dislike the idea that you're shifting too much towards FR and leaving Eberron somewhat abandoned, because the thing that brought me here wasn't just that it was a D&D-inspired MMO, but one inspired on my favorite campaign setting.

    Now, count my opinion to the bulk of the forum. I don't make even the 0.1%. I'm fine with that. But, I can believe that a larger percentage of the population than just one, or ten, or a hundred, really want to know what's gonna happen with the enhancements other than hearing on the State of the Game that the beta's gonna happen in "early Spring". We're on April already, and by the time we reach the end of April, it'll be "mid-Spring". If we extend that to your corporate masters, will they be as lenient as we are? Because...I dunno, but deadlines are supposed to matter, and I think the best way to prove you're an excellent team is to be ahead of deadline, no?

    Well, enough ranting. Fortunately it's been done before the proposed forum changes, so anyone can feel free to neg-rep me if they feel I've been insulting to the devs or to the rest of the forum population. I believe I was fair and polite with all of you guys, in any case, but it's just to express a worry: trying to please all won't work, but at least try to please the majority...

  10. #5010
    Community Member dlsidhe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TGOskar View Post
    Enhancement Beta. Early Spring.

    We're still here. Waiting.

    --

    But, as I can't help but being just a smart-aleck, I feel the need to explain:
    When you presented the tables before, it generated a mountain of discussion that you've probably shirked off. It's monumental to read the opinions of just about every single poster in two massive threads.

    Right now, the only thing that will satiate the bulk of the forum is to reveal concrete information about what you guys are gonna do with the enhancement pass. It's disheartening that it's so difficult, it has to span two missed updates before we get some "statement" determining when it's gonna happen.

    Now: it's great to know you're still looking at the thread, probably placing that as a bookmark to determine where you are. However, it's not working anymore.

    Any bit is fine. For example, what PrE tiers you're planning to work with Barbarian and Cleric, who by this time and age STILL have only one PrE (I would also say Artificer, but that's somewhat irrelevant because it's a newer class). Or, for example, how you plan to merge the Paladin's Hunter of the Dead with Knight of the Chalice: this is mostly personal, but I'm just wondering how you'll make it any different to Holy/Retribution/Protection, or else once again hear the cries of people saying that you're making the DDO Paladin too similar to WoW, hence invoking lack of originality and whatnot.

    Both threads have served their purpose. Whenever you're ready to discuss the enhancement pass beta, it's better to close these threads, trying to collapse the bulk of the discussion in a few paragraphs. Monumental task, yes, but not impossible. That might imply you've actually read the threads well enough to condensate the entire discussion in a series of posts where everyone can be up-to-date on the situation. It's only fair: no one has enough time to skim through pages and pages of people basically going back and forth on their ideal way to solve the enhancement pass situation. Focus on the common concerns: such as how the enhancement pass will benefit (or hose) multiclassing, which is a big concern.

    Providing us that meat will probably spark new discussion, allow for novel ideas, and make people get excited for the incoming change (or perhaps feed the chants of DOOOOO0000OO000!!1!!!!). By this point, reading is not enough; it's tantamount to saying "we've got a plan, it's almost complete, we're doing the necessary tweaks", but actually trying to improvise as the deadline approaches.

    Not everyone is going to be happy about the changes. That's a fact. I, for example, loathe the idea of giving Drow free access to the Tempest PrE, because I find it insulting. I have only one Drow, who just happens to be a ranger, but the LAST thing I want to do with him is turn him into a Drizzt clone. Just hearing about how Tempest will allow you to use Scimitars as light weapons makes my herniated esophagus swell with indignation: I don't want Twinkle, I don't want Icingdeath, I want Hank's Energy Bow for the sake of all that's good and sacred!! If I want to become an Arcane Archer, I better darn make him a Ranger or an Elf, but if I want to do it with Drow, I do it with a Ranger! If anyone wants to make a Drizzt clone, just make him take levels in Ranger, and spend one of his slots increasing stuff through Ranger, while he also gets levels in Fighter and Barbarian (if his stats on the Forgotten Realms supplement are actually fair). I also dislike the idea that you're shifting too much towards FR and leaving Eberron somewhat abandoned, because the thing that brought me here wasn't just that it was a D&D-inspired MMO, but one inspired on my favorite campaign setting.

    Now, count my opinion to the bulk of the forum. I don't make even the 0.1%. I'm fine with that. But, I can believe that a larger percentage of the population than just one, or ten, or a hundred, really want to know what's gonna happen with the enhancements other than hearing on the State of the Game that the beta's gonna happen in "early Spring". We're on April already, and by the time we reach the end of April, it'll be "mid-Spring". If we extend that to your corporate masters, will they be as lenient as we are? Because...I dunno, but deadlines are supposed to matter, and I think the best way to prove you're an excellent team is to be ahead of deadline, no?

    Well, enough ranting. Fortunately it's been done before the proposed forum changes, so anyone can feel free to neg-rep me if they feel I've been insulting to the devs or to the rest of the forum population. I believe I was fair and polite with all of you guys, in any case, but it's just to express a worry: trying to please all won't work, but at least try to please the majority...
    I had a similar initial reaction to the Drow Tempest thing, and I love having drow characters.

    Then I realized the potential for crazy fun with being able to be a Tempest, and not a ranger.

    Tempest Vulkoorim FvS Divine Avenger? Yes, that's my main plan...but...

    Tempest Pure Monk with WAY TOO MANY ATTACKS

    Tempest Druid with mostly-dumped STR, using DEX and WIS as primary stats driving dual flame-blades and scimitars

    Tempest Bard VotS or Warchanter

    Tempest Pure Rogue

    Tempest Scimitar Kensai

    Tempest Dual-wielding Barb

    I look at it this way - the reason for scimitars isn't Drizz't, but that Eberron drow have the Vulkoorim Dervishes. Drizz't doesn't treat his as light weapons, but the dervishes would.
    Thelanis - Dragons of the Shire
    Naeryna (Sun Elf 24 FvS Evoker) // Dianocia (Drow 22 Warlock) // Valissia (Drow 21 Shiradi Druid)
    Nae haz a story. Go read it.

  11. #5011
    Community Member Bzzzt's Avatar
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    http://ddowiki.com/page/Assassin_enhancements
    I ran across this which lists a preview that snuck out onto Lamannia and from my look over it, I'm impressed. It has maintained the iconic abilities of the old prestige line without failing to innovate upon them.

    Keypoints that I'm drooling at:

    Knife in the Darkness (0 AP, Rog 0) You gain proficiency with Kukris. You can also use your Dexterity modifier to hit with Daggers and Kukris.
    Exotic Weapon Feats proficiency really limits how much some of these other weapons are used. The fact that you can get that proficiency rolled into the prestige is fantastic and opens up builds. I really like this.

    Improved Assassinate (3 Ranks) +1/2/3 to the save DC's of your Assassinate abilities. Knife Specialization +1 Critical Threat Multiplier with Daggers and Kukris. Daggers also gain +1 Critical Threat Range.
    Why just daggers for the critical threat range? One of the best rogue weapons in the game Epic Midnight Greetings is a Kukri. That being said, it's still a nice step towards opening other weapon types up to being viable options.

    Shiv (3 Ranks) Melee Attack: Deals +1/2/3[W] damage and reduces your threat with nearby enemies by 100. On Sneak Attack: Target also gains a -2 Fortitude penalty against Poisons for 20 seconds. (Stacks 5 times.)

    Bleed Them Out (3 Ranks) Melee Attack: Deals +1/2/3[W] damage and on successful damage causes your opponent to bleed. The bleed effect can stack up to 5 times.

    Shadow Dagger (3 Ranks) Throws a dagger made of solidified shadows at your enemy. Deals 4d8 unholy damage and blinds the target (Fort DC 10 + Half Rogue Level + Intelligence Modifier negates Blindness)
    I like these abilities. They're a little bit odd but anything to make melee combat more then holding the mouse 1 button and running my fingers over 1/2/3 (cleave, great cleave, sunder/trip/imp sunder/etc).

    I really love the potential this tree has. The DPS it offers is staggeringly fantastic and if the other prestige trees are being handled with the same innovative mentality, I'm super-duper excited.
    Nope.
    Quote Originally Posted by Feather_of_Sun View Post
    It was causing server-crippling lag due to an issue with how much kobolds hate boxes.

  12. #5012
    Community Member dlsidhe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bzzzt View Post
    http://ddowiki.com/page/Assassin_enhancements
    I ran across this which lists a preview that snuck out onto Lamannia and from my look over it, I'm impressed. It has maintained the iconic abilities of the old prestige line without failing to innovate upon them.

    Keypoints that I'm drooling at:


    Exotic Weapon Feats proficiency really limits how much some of these other weapons are used. The fact that you can get that proficiency rolled into the prestige is fantastic and opens up builds. I really like this.


    Why just daggers for the critical threat range? One of the best rogue weapons in the game Epic Midnight Greetings is a Kukri. That being said, it's still a nice step towards opening other weapon types up to being viable options.


    I like these abilities. They're a little bit odd but anything to make melee combat more then holding the mouse 1 button and running my fingers over 1/2/3 (cleave, great cleave, sunder/trip/imp sunder/etc).

    I really love the potential this tree has. The DPS it offers is staggeringly fantastic and if the other prestige trees are being handled with the same innovative mentality, I'm super-duper excited.
    That tree, in particular, is why I'm drooling with anticipation of Divine Avenger. If they make a viable melee caster PrE (especially if they stick with the rumored "on vorpal strike SOMETHING AWESOME HAPPENS" mechanic from the early pre-U9 version that was briefly discussed, add some variety of smite, and some faith-weapons bonuses), I'll be out of being an Evoker faster than a kobold can run from a beholder in the Waterworks.
    Thelanis - Dragons of the Shire
    Naeryna (Sun Elf 24 FvS Evoker) // Dianocia (Drow 22 Warlock) // Valissia (Drow 21 Shiradi Druid)
    Nae haz a story. Go read it.

  13. #5013
    Community Member kingfisher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dlsidhe View Post
    I had a similar initial reaction to the Drow Tempest thing, and I love having drow characters.

    Then I realized the potential for crazy fun with being able to be a Tempest, and not a ranger.

    Tempest Vulkoorim FvS Divine Avenger? Yes, that's my main plan...but...

    Tempest Pure Monk with WAY TOO MANY ATTACKS

    Tempest Druid with mostly-dumped STR, using DEX and WIS as primary stats driving dual flame-blades and scimitars

    Tempest Bard VotS or Warchanter

    Tempest Pure Rogue

    Tempest Scimitar Kensai

    Tempest Dual-wielding Barb

    I look at it this way - the reason for scimitars isn't Drizz't, but that Eberron drow have the Vulkoorim Dervishes. Drizz't doesn't treat his as light weapons, but the dervishes would.
    your post highlights why giving out class pre's as racial pre's is a very bad idea.

  14. #5014
    Community Member Artos_Fabril's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bzzzt View Post
    Exotic Weapon Feats proficiency really limits how much some of these other weapons are used. The fact that you can get that proficiency rolled into the prestige is fantastic and opens up builds. I really like this.
    Kukri are martial, not exotic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bzzzt View Post
    Why just daggers for the critical threat range? One of the best rogue weapons in the game Epic Midnight Greetings is a Kukri. That being said, it's still a nice step towards opening other weapon types up to being viable options.
    Kukri are already 18-20, giving giving daggers increased threat range evens them out, it doesn't bring daggers ahead (and still leaves daggers slightly behind if you were to have improved critical in both)
    Quote Originally Posted by Bzzzt View Post
    I really love the potential this tree has. The DPS it offers is staggeringly fantastic and if the other prestige trees are being handled with the same innovative mentality, I'm super-duper excited.
    Not to fellate myself, but here are some additional ideas from page 156. (Also, take a look at the date of the post versus the date the Lama info was discovered)
    http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...postcount=3116
    Last edited by Artos_Fabril; 04-03-2013 at 06:02 PM.

  15. #5015
    Community Member IronClan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blayster View Post

    This is exactly my point. What is the advantage of a 20 Rogue Mech II over your proposed multiclass, trap-wise speaking?

    What if the intention of the devs is exactly to avoid this kind of odd (using your words) combination?
    If that's their intent then I'll find a different game to play, and that is at least partly why I'm posting in this thread If I want cookie cutter I have WoW and Neverwinter Online and well almost every other MMO that have limited or near zero character customizing. Those dark corners (so to speak) of build synergies that are a result of different changes over many years, lead to some of the best most organic multiclassing customization possible in an MMO... I'd like to see them HONOR those nooks and crannies, maybe even put a few new ones in.

    The advantage of a full 20 Mech II is that it will have 3 more of the excellent Rogue Special feats, 4d6 more sneak attack dice, +2 Trap sense a higher Reflex Save, and a Capstone that includes +2 INT (more trap skill than is possible for the other build) and an ADDITIONAL 4d6 sneak attack damage, for a total of 8d6 more sneak attack than the multiclass....

    You ask that question like a 20 rogue gets nothing.

  16. #5016
    Community Member Artos_Fabril's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    The advantage of a full 20 Mech II is that it will have 3 more of the excellent Rogue Special feats, 4d6 more sneak attack dice, +2 Trap sense a higher Reflex Save, and a Capstone that includes +2 INT (more trap skill than is possible for the other build) and an ADDITIONAL 4d6 sneak attack damage, for a total of 8d6 more sneak attack than the multiclass....

    You ask that question like a 20 rogue gets nothing.
    Not to mention that under the new enhancement system, there would be a tier 2.5 at 15 and a tier 3 at 18, as well as a tier 1.5 for battle engineer at 9, a tier 2 at 2, a tier 2.5 at 15 and a tier 3 at 18.

    With finished Prestige lines, there will be more and different trade-offs to consider even without a 3-tree limit. The difference is, limiting the trees will impact multiclass builds without impacting pure-class builds in a way that may break some currently existing characters.

    Giving us more or better options is the "right" way to boost TRing and sales of +hearts. Breaking currently viable builds by removing options is the "wrong" way to do it.

  17. #5017
    Community Member kingfisher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artos_Fabril View Post

    With finished Prestige lines, there will be more and different trade-offs to consider even without a 3-tree limit. The difference is, limiting the trees will impact multiclass builds without impacting pure-class builds in a way that may break some currently existing characters.
    this is the right way to say it.

  18. #5018
    Community Member Blayster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan
    If I want cookie cutter I have WoW and Neverwinter Online and well almost every other MMO that have limited or near zero character customizing
    I can't see the cookie cutter you talk about. You still can choose 3 classes, the same number of AP points, the same number of feats as before. In multiclassing you still have more options. Really, I don't see the cookie cutting.

    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan
    The advantage of a full 20 Mech II is that(...)
    Keywords: "trap-wise speaking"
    EDIT#1: Forgot to mention this: +2 INT with capstone, grants an impressive +1 to disable device skill. If you spend both extra feats on skills mastery you end up with an awesome +3.
    Last edited by Blayster; 04-04-2013 at 09:14 AM.

  19. #5019
    Community Member Bzzzt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artos_Fabril View Post
    Kukri are martial, not exotic.
    Kukri are already 18-20, giving giving daggers increased threat range evens them out, it doesn't bring daggers ahead (and still leaves daggers slightly behind if you were to have improved critical in both)
    Whoops, for some reason I have Kukri's stuck in my head with Kama's.

    While it bring daggers into line with Kukri's, I cannot think of any named Kukri's (aside from Midnight Greetings) that are on par with the current selection of endgame daggers, relegating this proficiency to "huh, that's....interesting" status.

    And this just occurred to me, if the expanded threat works like the rest of the expanded threat, Kukris will be 15-20 and daggers will only be 16-20 (18-20 with improved critical feat or keen +1 for prestige).
    Last edited by Bzzzt; 04-04-2013 at 11:56 AM.
    Nope.
    Quote Originally Posted by Feather_of_Sun View Post
    It was causing server-crippling lag due to an issue with how much kobolds hate boxes.

  20. #5020

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    If I want cookie cutter I have WoW and Neverwinter Online and well almost every other MMO that have limited or near zero character customizing.

    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Those dark corners (so to speak) of build synergies that are a result of different changes over many years, lead to some of the best most organic multiclassing customization possible in an MMO... I'd like to see them HONOR those nooks and crannies, maybe even put a few new ones in.
    If the level / class breaks are all the in the same, well-known places, how is that *not* cookie cutter?
    Brenna, Tzanna, and Tzinna Wavekin
    The Dancing Rogues of Argonnessen
    Ascent

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