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  1. #4981
    Community Member Blayster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan
    It's interesting that you're saying I assume too much, when assuming is actually what you are doing
    Requoting myself: I have the feeling that you assume too much about others.
    I indeed assume a lot about the game and developing behind it, but I'm not trying to make it any personal.

    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan
    There are examples of Dev's modifying "in development" ideas right here in this forums past. (...)
    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan
    Listening to the community is not Turbine's strong point
    So, what is your point, please? Turbine listens to the community or not?

    I want to bring attention to this: (...) directly because of player concerns.
    Since I like to assume about the development, I'd bet it was Dev's concerns, not players.

    We have layers here. Mournlands is closer to devs than open forums. We don't have idea what is going on there. What if the concerns have all proven meaningless in Mournlands? What if it was not tested in Mournlands yet, but devs are confident that after testing it will be okay? Do you really think that they will change the plans without giving it a try? Now, best question ever: what if the intention of the Devs IS TO NERF the multiclassing? Is that necessarily a bad thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scraap
    Define Power
    In my opinion, this:
    - likelihood that any given trick for x class would be pulled off successfully?

  2. #4982
    The Hatchery Scraap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blayster View Post
    In my opinion, this:
    - likelihood that any given trick for x class would be pulled off successfully
    Ok, for the hat-trick, here's the tough question: Why do you find that desirable?

  3. #4983
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blayster View Post

    So, what is your point, please? Turbine listens to the community or not?
    "not being their strong point" is not the same as "they will never listen"... Did you really need me to explain that? No of course not. I think you already could tell the difference in degrees there but you had to blame your wrong assumptions in the previous post on something. So you picked out me appearing to say "two different things" even though "They do listen but it's not their strong point" is an entirely non contradictory statement. And is exactly how I would sum up my view.

    It's also useful to note that "listening isn't their strong point" is usually and demonstrably because of the noise and entitlement/kicking/screaming/demanding that often goes on here. Every time a Dev posts, it is parsed to hell by jaded/unhappy/disenfranchised forum goers who are looking for any slip up or miswording to jump on, and insult/imply stupidity about that Dev. Just look at any loot thread that FoS is posting in. The Dev's don't post much here because they face a passive aggressive onslaught every time they post anything more than a humorous one liner or terse "I'm looking into it". Even that sometimes is parsed "What, kind of Dev needs to look into it, he should know it by heart, I would be fired if I didn't know my job".

    If you've read enough change threads you will see the same pattern over and over, they listen to calm and reasonably expressed concerns and address the ones they feel are valid up-to the point where the "reasonable concerns" are dragged down into a ranting vortex of FUD and DoooOOooOOooOoMMmmM!!! posts, at which point they never post again to that thread, presumably because the signal to noise ratio is impossible for a busy developer to filter through.
    Last edited by IronClan; 04-01-2013 at 05:46 PM.
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  4. #4984
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scraap View Post
    Ok, for the hat-trick, here's the tough question: Why do you find that desirable?
    Even better, why is it desirable only for a couple narrowly defined abilities? As most everything else in the game can be done by different classes given the right investment of opportunity cost.
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  5. #4985
    Community Member Antheal's Avatar
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    I'm not going to read 250 pages.

    Has there been any advancement on the Enhancement redesign?

  6. #4986
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antheal View Post
    I'm not going to read 250 pages.

    Has there been any advancement on the Enhancement redesign?
    Only news is sometime this spring its hitting lama so somewhere between now and June.20th (end of spring)

    No news on whether the devs changed the concept from a year ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  7. #4987
    Community Member EnjoyTheJourney's Avatar
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    I read in a reliable source that they dropped the "three tree" structure and substituted in a "three forest" structure instead. Now you can arrange the following enhancement forests exactly as you like:

    Forest 1: Choose from conifer, deciduous, or evergreen
    Forest 2: Choose from pine, oak, or fir
    Forest 3: Choose from mountain, valley, or lakeside

    As further good news, each of these forest types has its own capstone enhancement; as examples, conifer forests get "coneburst, 3x per day", lakeside forests get "quench" on a 30 second cooldown, and oak forests get "stand tall and mighty" as a toggle.

    I think we can all agree this will be a great leap forward for DDO.

  8. #4988
    Community Member Taojeff's Avatar
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    Default Arcane Archer ideas.

    Arcane Archer
    • More clickie effects
    • Web Arrow, Gas Arrow, etc
    • Have several different lines to choose arrows from (enchantment, conjuration, necromancy, evocation)
    • Each tier of a line has multiple levels of ap, for example 1 in flame might give you fire arrow, 2 might give you flaming burst and 3 might give you fireball arrow that does a flaming blast like effect to all creatures around the target.
    • A line to increase base damage of elemental or force attacks

  9. #4989
    Community Member Blayster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scraap
    Ok, for the hat-trick, here's the tough question: Why do you find that desirable?
    E.G.: Okay, wizards get 1 rogue level to disable traps. I just think that rogues should be considerably better (than they are at the moment) via passive bonus/feats or whatnot (and not only enhancements). Why? Because. It is an opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan
    Did you really need me to explain that?
    Yes. You seemed to play with my post, forcing up literal interpretations on every sentence. It is nothing but fair to play with yours. Notice however that I've never based my argumentation on that.

    "It is impossible to follow player's suggestion" refers to "all of them". I believe that you can suggest as much as you want, but that most of it will be quickly read, rarely considered. If at some point devs aren't sure about what to do, community might get extra attention, otherwise left aside, which is perfectly normal. Lammania and Mournlands are there for giving the first warning. That's how I think it works. I'm sorry but that's the last time I'm explaining this.

    And please, PLEASE, could you be less verbose?

    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan
    why is it desirable only for a couple narrowly defined abilities?
    When did anyone mention "narrowly defined abilities"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Taojeff
    Arcane Archer
    I like this suggestion, except for the fireball arrow. You either increase damage or AoE, both would be OP. Imagine that with Manyshots...
    A line for Fear (already in!), Web, Slow, similars would be awesome indeed.

  10. #4990
    The Hatchery Scraap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blayster View Post
    E.G.: Okay, wizards get 1 rogue level to disable traps. I just think that rogues should be considerably better (than they are at the moment) via passive bonus/feats or whatnot (and not only enhancements). Why? Because. It is an opinion.
    Ok:
    A) Stop looking at my character sheet
    B) Please elaborate on why. "it's my opinion because it's my opinion" doesn't really help em find a middle ground, or target the real desires. "I want to easily identify what a toon can do by looking at the icon(s)", or "I don't want to micro-manage every choice" for instance.

    Note that my expressed opinion is that functionally locked in classes or completely stacking trees and gear would be detrimental to character building flexibility for that portion of the game that is still based on probability, but it'd be fine to see higher investment costs for a secondary focus.

    For example, to use the wiz/rogue analogy, I'd actually already suggested the notion of treating enhancement points like skill-points for instance, with class, and cross-class costs, so that you can pick a portion of enhancements to hit a benchmark, but are locked out of the full range of capabilities due to cost. (After all, they're secondary focuses, so yeah, you should probably sweat a bit more to pull em off, but that shouldn't make it a no-brainier to not even try either.)
    Last edited by Scraap; 04-02-2013 at 12:56 PM.

  11. #4991
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    Default information request

    Dear Devs

    If we could get a point of concept of each tree it would help us in part to understand what to expect, and give us something to chew on.

    eg: rogue,
    assassin: stealthy dps
    mechanic: perception abilities and traps (disabling and setting)
    thief acrobat: movement and speed

    If you give us this without the adjustable hard numbers we can both make suggestions on course of actions and make hypothetical character concepts for the upcoming change before it happens.

  12. #4992
    2014 DDO Players Council
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blayster View Post
    E.G.: Okay, wizards get 1 rogue level to disable traps. I just think that rogues should be considerably better (than they are at the moment) via passive bonus/feats or whatnot (and not only enhancements). Why? Because. It is an opinion.
    But they can be significantly better if one opts to... And often are. For starters they have higher reflex saves, Improved Evasion, and it's easier for a Rogue to have higher HP's with bigger HD, and they only need to spend skill points 1 for 1 on those skills, while a Wiz spends double on all but one or two levels. Generally speaking the best Rogues are Rogues, in fact the very best Rogues are at least 12lvl Mechanics or Assassins, both of which can pump INT like a Wizard, and get benefits from it.

    (Dang looking it over now I want to make a 14 Rogue Mech II 6 Arti Battle Engineer, but that is what I love about DDO... the possibilities)

    Quote Originally Posted by Blayster View Post
    When did anyone mention "narrowly defined abilities"?
    Well your objection was originally to Assassinate being less than pure 20 class based, VERY FEW abilities in the game are purely class based or have a class based DC that makes them effectively useless for anyone who doesn't go pretty much pure. That seems narrowly defined no? Or do you have lots of abilities you'd like to see become (even) less viable the more you multiclass?
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  13. #4993
    Community Member EnjoyTheJourney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    ...

    Well your objection was originally to Assassinate being less than pure 20 class based, VERY FEW abilities in the game are purely class based or have a class based DC that makes them effectively useless for anyone who doesn't go pretty much pure. That seems narrowly defined no? Or do you have lots of abilities you'd like to see become (even) less viable the more you multiclass?
    I would.

    I see no reason why a character who does not specialize in being an assassin would have the same DC as another character who does specialize in being an assassin, ceterus paribus. More generally, those who specialize should gain more power in some ways, in exchange for having a narrower focus and a tool kit that's not as diverse. If you don't specialize, then you should give up some power, in exchange for having a broader set of tools. If these statements are not true, then that's conceptually weak and in practice probably a balance problem, and not something to celebrate.

    In even more general terms, prestige classes were all about tradeoffs, from the beginning. Early Kensais, for example, weren't just a way of building a straight up better fighter; kensais were better than fighters in some ways and worse in others, which made sense. And that's exactly how I'd like DDO to be; if you want rewards from specializing, then specialize. If not, then don't.
    Last edited by EnjoyTheJourney; 04-02-2013 at 05:20 PM.

  14. #4994
    Developer Vargouille's Avatar
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    Enhancements. Devs.

    We're still here. Reading.

  15. #4995

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    I'm starting to get a excited to see a preview version on lama in the next couple months, but since all my real alts (not including the challenge farmer) are multiclass, I'm very nervous about you guys keeping the 3-tree limit. Fingers crossed you don't nerf all multiclass builds across the board in one fell swoop.

  16. #4996
    The Hatchery Scraap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnjoyTheJourney View Post
    I would.

    I see no reason why a character who does not specialize in being an assassin would have the same DC as another character who does specialize in being an assassin, ceterus paribus. More generally, those who specialize should gain more power in some ways, in exchange for having a narrower focus and a tool kit that's not as diverse. If you don't specialize, then you should give up some power, in exchange for having a broader set of tools. If these statements are not true, then that's conceptually weak and in practice probably a balance problem, and not something to celebrate.

    In even more general terms, prestige classes were all about tradeoffs, from the beginning. Early Kensais, for example, weren't just a way of building a straight up better fighter; kensais were better than fighters in some ways and worse in others, which made sense. And that's exactly how I'd like DDO to be; if you want rewards from specializing, then specialize. If not, then don't.
    Kinda still feeling around in the dark since we lack info on what is and isn't locked down in terms of structure, but what if we took a look at the 5 pips you get per level, and changed that to say... odds grant class AP (3), and evens granted toon AP(2), with toon AP being able to be spent anywhere, but being the requirement for say, the racial trees?

    If they included an assassinate DC line that cost 5 points total for 5 DC, that'd eat all of em on a pure, more than 2 levels worth on a halfling with racial assassinate, and cut into the discretionary 'funds' of an x/rog. Would that qualify in your books as specializing?

  17. #4997
    Community Member EnjoyTheJourney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scraap View Post
    Kinda still feeling around in the dark since we lack info on what is and isn't locked down in terms of structure, but what if we took a look at the 5 pips you get per level, and changed that to say... odds grant class AP (3), and evens granted toon AP(2), with toon AP being able to be spent anywhere, but being the requirement for say, the racial trees?

    If they included an assassinate DC line that cost 5 points total for 5 DC, that'd eat all of em on a pure, more than 2 levels worth on a halfling with racial assassinate, and cut into the discretionary 'funds' of an x/rog. Would that qualify in your books as specializing?
    In your example, a halfling pure assassin would still have a higher potential assassinate DC than a halfling multi-classed assassin + some other class(es).

    It's hard to know if the higher DC for the halfling pure assassin would be important or not, without knowing other information. But, there is a potentially quite noticeable advantage to specializing in this example that goes right to the heart of what an assassin is supposed to be trained to do -- especially if the "Deadly Shadow" capstone is taken by the halfling pure assassin.

  18. #4998
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnjoyTheJourney View Post
    I would.

    I see no reason why a character who does not specialize in being an assassin would have the same DC as another character who does specialize in being an assassin, ceterus paribus. More generally, those who specialize should gain more power in some ways, in exchange for having a narrower focus and a tool kit that's not as diverse. If you don't specialize, then you should give up some power, in exchange for having a broader set of tools. If these statements are not true, then that's conceptually weak and in practice probably a balance problem, and not something to celebrate.

    In even more general terms, prestige classes were all about tradeoffs, from the beginning. Early Kensais, for example, weren't just a way of building a straight up better fighter; kensais were better than fighters in some ways and worse in others, which made sense. And that's exactly how I'd like DDO to be; if you want rewards from specializing, then specialize. If not, then don't.
    Assassinate DC 10 + Rogue Levels + INT

    Assassinate DC 20 + 1/2 Rogue Levels + INT

    Which one of those doesn't reward the specialist? The answer is both still reward the specialist.

    Which one both rewards the specialist but also allows a viable way to Assasinate OKAY but not as well, for a character with less rogue levels? a 12 rogue 8 Monk in Example A is giving up 8 DC, the same Ninja-Assasin in example B is giving up 4 DC (okay Class split is probably 14/6, for a -6 or -3 DC but that's not the point). Fair to say one is non-viable and the other is just landing it less. Both are clearly worse at Assassinating than a 20 Rogue, it's just that ONE of them might actually be worth some opportunity cost and a +5 INT Tome and Herculean Gear grind to try and pull off (i.e. a fun build challenge)

    IMO it's possible to have the BEST be the specialists, while also not making it completely non-viable for any multiclass to be merely okay at it.

    Most of the game works like this, only a few abilities like Assassinate still require overly rigid pure builds. Hell even casting DC's are not tied specifically to class level.

    I want more choices, not less. To me the strength of DDO has been the build creativity, it's why I came back (other MMO's just don't have it). I am really incouraged to read that they might be dropping conventional tier III PrE level requirements to 16, hopefully they also drop Tier II to 10. That change alone might make my Pali a more interesting build to play.

    It would be really cool if the enhancement pass ends up making for more tough choices instead of more non-choices.

    (note also the base DC can of course be changed to a more complex forumla for game balance, I just went with the simple easy to illustrate example)
    Last edited by IronClan; 04-02-2013 at 07:55 PM.
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  19. #4999
    The Hatchery Scraap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnjoyTheJourney View Post
    In your example, a halfling pure assassin would still have a higher potential assassinate DC than a halfling multi-classed assassin + some other class(es).

    It's hard to know if the higher DC for the halfling pure assassin would be important or not, without knowing other information. But, there is a potentially quite noticeable advantage to specializing in this example that goes right to the heart of what an assassin is supposed to be trained to do -- especially if the "Deadly Shadow" capstone is taken by the halfling pure assassin.
    Hrm... quite true indeed if the racials unlock a second copy of a class PRE as opposed to simply having extra points to blow in one tree for more breadth... Hey Devs: Can we at least get whether that much has been locked in yet?

  20. #5000
    Community Member Phemt81's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antheal View Post
    I'm not going to read 250 pages.

    Has there been any advancement on the Enhancement redesign?
    I heard the game will be not playable for 10 days after they change the enhancements.

    But after that amount of time they'll fix it
    How to revamp past life reward system <--- working again
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    We absolutely planned for Fighter to still have Haste Boost. It's absolutely a bug. Any similar issues that look "wrong" to any player should be bugged.
    Developers should fix this

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