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  1. #4041
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Just a quick update:

    We have a number of enhancement trees up for review on the Mournlands forum and we've been getting some very constructive feedback that we're currently assessing.
    Geez, I thought Mournlands was like fight club ... does this mean we gotta take care of some biznes MF?
    The evolution of DDO: Stormreach to Eberron Unlimited to Dungeons & Dragons Online
    -1- -2- -3- -4- -5- -6- -7- -8- -9- years & still spawning kobolds
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  2. #4042
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldin View Post
    Until then....we can get another Let's Talk thread about either AC or Ranged Combat?
    Well I could tell you that we revamped the AC system but you would just want to know details and stuff...

    I'll start one soon for AC. Judging from the Mournlands feedback on AC we need to divulge more detail than we have... and I'm trying to extract that info from a very tired systems designer.
    The kobold cannot be marked as junk because it cannot be sold. You can destroy it by dragging and dropping it outside your inventory.

  3. #4043
    Developer MadFloyd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hafeal View Post
    Geez, I thought Mournlands was like fight club ... does this mean we gotta take care of some biznes MF?
    Remember the first rule of FC?
    The kobold cannot be marked as junk because it cannot be sold. You can destroy it by dragging and dropping it outside your inventory.

  4. #4044
    Hatchery Founder
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Well I could tell you that we revamped the AC system but you would just want to know details and stuff...

    I'll start one soon for AC. Judging from the Mournlands feedback on AC we need to divulge more detail than we have... and I'm trying to extract that info from a very tired systems designer.

    Sounds exciting! I wonder how revamped. It would be nice if you didn't have to min-max AC for it to be useful in higher level content.
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  5. #4045
    Community Member Cyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Well I could tell you that we revamped the AC system but you would just want to know details and stuff...

    I'll start one soon for AC. Judging from the Mournlands feedback on AC we need to divulge more detail than we have... and I'm trying to extract that info from a very tired systems designer.
    Sounds interesting. Be sure to include the clear goals that you are trying to meet with this sort of change. Lots of different opinions on what goals should be for an AC revamp after all.
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  6. #4046
    The Hatchery Scraap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Well I could tell you that we revamped the AC system but you would just want to know details and stuff...

    I'll start one soon for AC. Judging from the Mournlands feedback on AC we need to divulge more detail than we have... and I'm trying to extract that info from a very tired systems designer.
    Much appreciated. Going to second the request that the intent of anything done to account for balance concerns is made clear as day.

  7. #4047
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    im so happy!
    If the pay-to-cheat raid timer bypass item goes live, I will not spend another cent on DDO as long as it is in the store and encourage others to do the same. Copy this into your sig if you agree.

  8. #4048
    Community Member Avidus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Well I could tell you that we revamped the AC system but you would just want to know details and stuff...

    I'll start one soon for AC. Judging from the Mournlands feedback on AC we need to divulge more detail than we have... and I'm trying to extract that info from a very tired systems designer.
    So Armor Class was revamped already? Before the thread was started.

    How much of a 'revamp' are we talking about?
    How much room will there be for changes / alterations based on player feedback?
    Were you(i.e the 'devs') watching the various player started threads and using that as a spring board?

    And who is this systems designer anyway? and where did he get the idea that he could slow down becasue he's tired?
    Why doesn't he have a five hour energy / red bull I.V. drip?!
    ARRGGHHHH we need details !

    A bit more on topic for this thread, is there anything you can tell us about the tree limit? Could you possibly give us a vague timeline of when to check for a new mockup or even a semi full tree?

    Thanks MF, we appreciate the time taken to share with us.
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  9. #4049
    Community Member Phemt81's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Well I could tell you that we revamped the AC system but you would just want to know details and stuff...

    I'll start one soon for AC. Judging from the Mournlands feedback on AC we need to divulge more detail than we have... and I'm trying to extract that info from a very tired systems designer.
    How to revamp past life reward system <--- working again
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    We absolutely planned for Fighter to still have Haste Boost. It's absolutely a bug. Any similar issues that look "wrong" to any player should be bugged.
    Developers should fix this

  10. #4050
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    It looks like someone deflected the conversation on how to a 3 tree limit may or may not be penalizing deep multi-class builds by bringing up AC revamp.
    Last edited by Nyvn; 03-23-2012 at 01:32 PM.

  11. #4051
    Community Member Monkey-Boy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    I'll start one soon for AC. Judging from the Mournlands feedback on AC we need to divulge more detail than we have... and I'm trying to extract that info from a very tired systems designer.

    Come on, spill it

  12. #4052

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    Quote Originally Posted by mystafyi View Post
    Are these upcoming changes planned for U13 or this a longer term project?

    Are changes being considered to bring the game more in line with 4.0 d&d?
    ^^^ I certainly hope not. WotC has even realized what a POS the 4e system is, already planning 5e.

  13. #4053

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    Here's a thought that doesnt get brought up enough...

    Prestige Enhancements should be broken away from their base classes ....

    There's no reason a Fighter shouldn't be allowed to go Tempest, and no reason a Ranger shouldn't be allowed to go Kensai. This concept is already used for Arcane Archer (All Elves can take it, regardless of class). Imagine a drwarven defender Barbarian, fortifying one of their weaknesses... for example...

    If you take all the right feats or invest in all the right skills and stats, all PrEs should be available to take for any class as long as you meet the required feat/stat/skill/enhancement abilities.

    This was how it was done in PnP and how it should be done in DDO.

    The main benefit of course is MORE CHOICES. More ways to build the fighter/caster/healer/custom pimp my ride ___________ that you want to play. The other benefit I see is potentially greatly minimizing game balance issues tied to class PrE vs class PrE and minimize your headaches at the same time "this PrE is for fighters, so we need to balance that with another for paladins"...
    +1 to you. I always liked that about the PrC's in PnP, as long as you could meet the preReq's you could take any PrC'. In practice it was easier to get to some PrC's by using certain classes, but with a few exceptions it was rarely a requirement to have a specific class.

  14. #4054
    Community Member kingfisher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyvn View Post
    It looks like someone deflected the conversation on how to a 3 tree limit may or may not be penalizing deep multi-class builds by bringing up AC revamp.
    avoidance is a poor way to deal with a problem, and its not like its going to go away.

  15. #4055
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Why all this blabbering about tree limitations then? Whats the difference?
    It's about stacking and cherry picking. The devs have stated that they plan/want enhancements to stack in a much more intuitive fashion (as in, they want them to always stack, not sometimes stack, not lockout). Without tree limits, unlimited stacking could get very out of hand, especially with low-tier enhancements.

    Also, when you can take any enhancements you want from your classes, it leads to cherry picking the best ones. This actually leads to the cookie-cutter builds your worried about.

    Mark Rosewater (like him or hate him, if you know who I'm talking about, you know he's a huge name in game design) has espoused this so many times: limitations actually lead to MORE creative designs. If you have no limits, you tend to fall back on the good stuff you know. If you have limits, you're forced to think more creatively and make use of tools you might otherwise have overlooked.

    In respect to this tree limit thing, the three tree limit is going to limit you, yes. But it's going to create more variance in multiclass builds--a 12/6/2 ftr/rgr/mnk that focuses on taking only DPS-focused trees (say, Kensai, Tempest, Ninja Spy) would most likely look VERY different from a toon with the same split that focuses on taking SD, Purple Dragon Knight, and Shintao Monk.

    Currently, a 12/6/2 build tends to take the same enhancements from its 6/2 classes as any other build with that same split because those are the only enhancements worth taking from those classes. With the 3 tree limit and the removal of class level gating on enhancements (except for the PrE Bonuses), varying toons with the same splits could be taking wildly different enhancements, all depending on what they want that toon to do.

    We're probably going to be looking at LESS cookie-cutter builds than we have now.
    Last edited by waterboytkd; 03-23-2012 at 02:44 PM.

  16. #4056
    Community Member NXPlasmid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Well I could tell you that we revamped the AC system but you would just want to know details and stuff...

    I'll start one soon for AC. Judging from the Mournlands feedback on AC we need to divulge more detail than we have... and I'm trying to extract that info from a very tired systems designer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Avidus View Post
    So Armor Class was revamped already? Before the thread was started.
    How much of a 'revamp' are we talking about?
    How much room will there be for changes / alterations based on player feedback?
    Were you(i.e the 'devs') watching the various player started threads and using that as a spring board?
    Exactly what I was thinking.... I'm not sure if I am worried or excited....
    On Khyber: Tchpostick (Monk 20) Tablespoon (WF barb20), Pspoon (Eleven Cleric20), Tsirio (Halfling Bard18), Silvr (Human Rogue2/Wizard18), Ladle (Elven Cleric11), Forq (Human Bard14), Sporkk (Human Fighter lvl20), Tspatula (monk20)

  17. #4057
    Community Member die's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Well I could tell you that we revamped the AC system but you would just want to know details and stuff...

    I'll start one soon for AC. Judging from the Mournlands feedback on AC we need to divulge more detail than we have... and I'm trying to extract that info from a very tired systems designer.
    Cool
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    Xoriat Born~Doompriest~Doom~DoomTusk~Legion of Doom~Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering.

  18. #4058
    Community Member Monkey-Boy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Well I could tell you that we revamped the AC system but you would just want to know details and stuff...

    I'll start one soon for AC. Judging from the Mournlands feedback on AC we need to divulge more detail than we have... and I'm trying to extract that info from a very tired systems designer.
    i just caught this . . . what details have already been divulged? From my understanding NOTHING has been leaked to the public yet regarding Turbine's plans.

    I think if MF is really feeling evil he should drop this bomb at around 4:55 PM today so there's a mad feeding frenzy over the weekend

  19. #4059
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waterboytkd View Post

    Currently, a 12/6/2 build tends to take the same enhancements from its 6/2 classes as any other build with that same split because those are the only enhancements worth taking from those classes. With the 3 tree limit and the removal of class level gating on enhancements (except for the PrE Bonuses), varying toons with the same splits could be taking wildly different enhancements, all depending on what they want that toon to do.

    We're probably going to be looking at LESS cookie-cutter builds than we have now.
    No sir - this game will become MORE cookie cutter.

    With a three tree limit, people wont be taking ANY enhancements from the 2 level class (when we could before) and barely any from the 6 level class (when we could before).

    Why even limit vertical progression by multiclassing? To gain lateral progression. Limit lateral progression and theres no reason to voluntarily limit vertical progression by multiclassing. Staying pure will be the best option. People may splash to gain feats, but certainly not enhancements. Evansion splashes will still be common. 2 fighter splashes will still be common. Deep multiclassing will disappear.

    Why would I want to restrict myself to level 12 in 3 trees when i can just stay pure and go all the way up to 20 in three trees?

    Quote Originally Posted by waterboytkd View Post
    Mark Rosewater (like him or hate him, if you know who I'm talking about, you know he's a huge name in game design) has espoused this so many times: limitations actually lead to MORE creative designs. If you have no limits, you tend to fall back on the good stuff you know. If you have limits, you're forced to think more creatively and make use of tools you might otherwise have overlooked.
    As for Maro from the good ol Magic days - tell him there are already limitations in the system. You cant cherry pick a level 14 enhancement when you took 12 levels of the class. Maro also knows about the trade off concept - you trade vertical advancement by cutting your primary class off at 12, to gain lateral advancement in another class up to 6 levels, then splash 2 rogue for evasion and UMD etc. If theres no lateral gain for the sacrifice made in vertical progression, people will choose to keep their vertical progression. Thus, pure and 18/2 will be the optimal choices.
    Last edited by Chai; 03-23-2012 at 03:18 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  20. #4060

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrin View Post
    I think that the current list of racial unlock trees were:

    Dwarf: Stalwart Defender
    Warforged: Stalwart Defender
    Halfling: Assassin
    Half-Orc: Ravager
    Elf: Arcane Archer
    Drow: Tempest
    Human: Pick one. (Slightly higher investment in Racial tree required to unlock.)
    Half-Elf: Arcane Archer, Human, Elf (Yes, in our current plan they can unlock racial trees from the other races if desired. They might be able to go Half-Elf tree -> Human tree -> Any PrE through gargantuan AP expenditures.)

    These are still subject to change. (Especially that Human part.)
    So does this mean that the announced Wareforged Jugernaut PrE is off the table? I hope not because I really was looking forward to that PrE line alot. Secondarily, I was also interested in Scorpion Wraith PrE for Drow.

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