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  1. #2021
    Founder Riggs's Avatar
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    Should pure classes get more than they have now? Yes. Should that be accomplished by taking away things that multiclasses get now? No.

    The challenge, once again, is for Turbine to make all enhancements useful - not just some, they seem to be already aware of this, which is good.

    Pure classes need, and needed some kind of boost. No arguments. Capstones was one way to get partway there, but is a small and arbitrary way as well - level 20 and 18 gives something but level 19,17,16,15,14 does not for example. So part of the answer is that ALL levels of a class, or at least every other level, gives something that benefits that class other than 4-10 more hp.

    Casters get more spells, so casters are in a different category than melee. Most melee classes dont do more damage adding one more level - while casters do. A level 12 fighter and a level 20 fighter can do about the same amount of damage, and if you add 6 levels of a 'better' tier 1 from another class - do MORE damage adding in something else than taking Kensai 3 for example. Any mix and match of melee tends to give some kind of benefit - in part because right now a lot of tier 1 lines or splash bonuses are front loaded. (Similarly, a level 12 Rogue/8 fighter and a level 20 Rogue disarm traps all the same)

    Currently a tier 3 line requiring 18 is just an artificial number tacked onto the flawed D&D system TSR and then WotC made from edition 3.0 and onward. While Turbine has done a lot to try and work within that system to add some better balance (and sometimes failing...) - this new system could possibly do a great job in fixing a decades old problem.

    But for that to work, all levels, and all higher levels of enhancements have to give increasing benefits to staying pure - which currently they do not for many cases. Haste boost as one example. Level 1, 1 point. 15% increase. Level 4? 4 points, a 5% increase. What is wrong with that picture? Every line of enhancements is front loaded in BOTH cost AND effectiveness, which is very wrong.

    Every point of AP should be as important as every other point - if 1 point gets you 15%, then 4 points should get you 60%. While that will be changing, most people complaining seem to keep missing that simple but critical fact.

    The fact that so many early bonuses are big, and later bonuses get smaller is why so many multiclasses are out there now. For a melee is almost always better to multi than go pure - that 1 or 2 extra feats for a fighter cant compare to Tempest 1, DoS, FB 1 or whatever - in part because feats are also useless other than the few major ones that everyone takes. (On a side note, I have mentioned Pathfinder before - because they solved this problem already - every 2 class levels you get something. Level 20 you get something bigger. Every class, not just casters - it works well)

    However saying that pure classes need more power - does not, and should not, require actively taking AWAY things from multiclasses that they have now. Which is what the 3 tree limit and only accessing 1/3 of class enhancements per tree would do. No rational person can honestly say losing 66% of what you had from yesterday to today is not a nurf.

    The most sensible solution should be pretty clear;

    • Tier 1 Prestige lines give SOME benefit, but not a ton - but every tier 1 should be useful in some way.
    • Enhancement lines get streamlined - so 1/1/1/1 (1/1?) not 2/4/6, or 1/2/3/4 - which is already going to happen as stated.
    • Higher tier Prestige lines give a greater benefit than simply +1 better than the tier before. This will encourage all on its own specializing over multiclassing.
    • but also - higher level enhancements BY THEMSELVES get better - so even if you do not put points into a prestige line - the points you DO spend matter, and make you better. A fighter should not HAVE to have two prestige lines to be good - if one capstone costs 41 points - the other 39 points they spend on just fighter/race enhancements should by themselves be good enough that they dont feel ripped off for not having dual tier 3 prestige lines.
    • Capstones would be like a tier 4 - better again by at least 1 full step over tier 3 - and you only ever get one of them per character no matter what.
    • Tier 3 should also be only ever one per character no matter what.
    • Class Enhancements should not be limited to specific trees unless very specifically that enhancement is clearly only appropriate for one line. there should be very, very few enhancements that count like that - unless say you also get prestige specific enhancements that unlock once you take a prestige line.
    • Racial lines should not give tier 3 access all by themselves - this has been already recognized by Turbine, but most people arguing here are arguing as if racial will still have a full prestige line unlock.
    • No limits on the 'amount of trees' you can access - the amount of points alone will be a big enough limit to 'superpowers' that some seem to fear. Combined with bigger bonuses for later tiers of lines - and even if a level 12 in a class gets access to tier 3 because of relaxing level restrictions by 6 points say - a pure class is still going to have access to more, and higher, and more powerful enhancements than a multi.


    Given the above, there is zero reason to ALSO limit multiclass builds by forcing a limit of 3 trees, AND locking out every other enhancement from other trees once one tree is picked. That is both overkill, unnecessary, and quite simply punitive, and not balancing at all. And quite simply seems to be an argument for fitting things on one page of a UI - not what is good for the game.

    People all up in arms and quivering in fear of the 'superman' multiclass builds that might be possible are completely aiming for the wrong target.

    Make taking 2 more fighter levels just as good as taking 2 more caster levels is to a caster - and the problem completely goes away. You can still choose to multiclass for versatility - but you dont lose access to the lower level enhancements as people want to make happen now.
    Last edited by Riggs; 01-13-2012 at 05:52 PM.

  2. #2022
    Founder & Hero cdbd3rd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Wait wait wait...LESLIE'S A DUDE!?!?!?!
    Gotta de-lurk for that chuckler.

    /resumes lurking with a wait-n-see attitude still firmly in hand.

    ( Though the thought of having to redo ~60 characters worth of feat respecs... ... ugh...)
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  3. #2023
    Community Member HarveyMilk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    Oh building the DDO store into toon creation I'd be very much against.

    People should not have to worry what's in their wallet in order to build the toon they would like to build. I'm all for Turbine making money but... not this way.
    You do realize that 32-point builds are already available in the store, and for favor unlock, similar to my request for full tree unlock?

  4. #2024
    Community Member orakio's Avatar
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    I like a lot of the ideas you proposed Riggs except a couple
    • Should be allowed multiple tier3, pure classes don't have the variety of multi's and most classes only have 2 (or 1) PrE that works well with the others. Leaves poor tertiary class PrE to move into oftentimes, let them go 3/3/1(2) or cap/2(3)/1(0) if they want or 3/2/2 if they want.
    • I think races should have a full tier3 PrE but require 10 points in racial tree first, eliminates capstone/racial 3 PrE builds.
    • T3 PrE's don't need bigger benefits than T1/T2 so long as the benefits are consistent throughout and the higher enhancements are competetive with the flexibility of powerful enhancements on unlimited trees.
    Last edited by orakio; 01-13-2012 at 05:59 PM.

  5. #2025
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HarveyMilk View Post
    My question is, would you be willing to have multi-class enhancement flexibility be an earnable unlock, and purchasable in the DDO store? It'd be a kind of 32-point build option, but with steeper requirements because, I assume, having access to many more trees will provide much more benefit than 4 build points.
    No.

    We have full multiclass flexibility right now. To have them revamp the entire system simply to start charging us for access to the good stuff is bad in multiple different ways. Giving users something for free then charging them for it later on is almost never a good business decision. It looks and smells like a blatent cash grab from a user perspective.

    Quote Originally Posted by HarveyMilk View Post
    You do realize that 32-point builds are already available in the store, and for favor unlock, similar to my request for full tree unlock?
    The situation isnt as such where 32 point builds were given to us for free for a number of years before hand, then one day they began charging for it. We would be paying for or farming for something we got free for a number of years.
    Last edited by Chai; 01-13-2012 at 06:03 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  6. #2026
    Community Member Artos_Fabril's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waterboytkd View Post
    Really? Then in detail, what will your multiclass not have access to that he currently does? What enhancements specifically will 12/6/2 builds lack? How are desired enhancements going to be split into specific trees that would screw over multiclasses?
    From my earlier post in this thread, regarding specific things a specific build would lose:
    Quote Originally Posted by Artos_Fabril View Post
    Right now I have a Elf 13Rogue/6ranger/1fighter, a relic of pre-U5. Acrobat/Tempest TWF.
    That character has the acrobat II pre-reqs and enhancements, full sneak attack lines, full haste boost line with extra boost, favored enemy enhancements, sprint boost, Tempest 1, a smattering of other stuff, and fighter tactics enhancements and toughness 1. This is not a godly build desperately in need of nerfing. But under the new system, if limited to 3 trees without a general tab:
    Lose fighter enhancements, right off the top, there's only one level and there's nothing available from a single level of fighter that's worth giving up another tree.
    No racial PrE, this is an elf with no feats to spare for ranged abilities not already granted by ranger levels.
    Keep Tempest 1, or there's not much reason for the deep ranger splash
    Keep acrobat, unless it gets a big heap of "they changed it now it sucks", also this is probably where haste boost will live.
    Put points into the assassin line, for SA damage and Subtle Backstabbing

    So there's 3 PrE lines: Acrobat, Assassin, Tempest.
    So no favored enemy bonuses, those are all in DWS.
    No mechanic related enhancements, so lose skill boost, and any trap skills, trap sense, resistances, wrack construct.
    Nothing from the fighter level except a feat.
    Not a high-int build, so It's not going to gain much out of a deeper investment in assassin, unless the tier 1 and 2 of that tree get serious buffing. Can't go deeper than tier 2 in acrobat because of class level restrictions, same with Tempest. So where does this build put the points that are now spent in fighter enhancements, mechanic enhancements, or any that are freed up by cost reductions in Pre-reqs (looking at you, 12 points for Rouge Dex III *scowl*)

    A limit of 3 trees is a strict nerf to this build, and I'm sure it's not alone. What's probably going to happen is a TR into a pure class build. Maybe a half-elf Battle Eng/AoV if they get a light damage line, so I can take a light damage rune arm with full enhancements, or a Battle Eng/Mechanic
    Givens and assumptions:
    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    A multiclassed character can change a class enhancement tree with 0 points spent in it to a different class tree that is available to them using the drop down menus. For example, if this character multiclassed into Wizard, it could change the Rogue: Thief-Acrobat tree into Wizard: Archmage, Wizard: Pale Master, or Wizard: Wild Mage. Trees that have points spent in them cannot be changed to other trees. The racial tree cannot be swapped out for a different one.
    [...]
    Initially, players will have the bottom row of enhancements available to them. As players spend enhancement points within the current tree, additional tiers of enhancements will become available to them. Enhancements will no longer have a “total action points spent” prerequisite, this is replaced by a “total action points spent in this tree” prerequisite, and is defined by the tier the enhancement is on. (5 * [Tier of Enhancement – 1])

    Most enhancements will be able to be selected multiple times – the player will do this by selecting the same enhancement repeatedly, incrementing the number of times it has been taken, giving greater effects, up to a limit. (For example, Sneak Attack Damage can be taken 5 times.) High tiers of most enhancements will have class level requirements.

    Enhancements that are unavailable to the player are greyed out. Enhancements can still have feat or class level prerequisites – if a player does not meet these prerequisites, a red border or lock display is added to the icon. This should not be subtle, it should be absolutely clear to the player that there’s something wrong here, and they need to do something if they want this enhancement. Players can figure out what requirements they’re missing by viewing the tooltip.[...]
    (bold text added by me for emphasis)
    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrin View Post
    tempest abilities granted by point expenditure(subject to change disclaimer)
    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrin View Post
    On Enhancements being parsed into specific trees.
    Finally, on the value of providing feedback based on the information we have, regardless of the information we lack:
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    We're still figuring this stuff out. If you have opinions on which way to go, let us know!
    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Just a quick note to say thanks for the constructive discussion.

    I totally get the concern about the limited number of trees and we're discussing it here. Like anything else there are pros and cons and differing opinions.

  7. #2027

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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Wait wait wait...LESLIE'S A DUDE!?!?!?!
    Yeah, I had no clue until the first time I heard him in voice chat and thought the same thing.

    Helpful guy too.
    Last edited by Aashrym; 01-13-2012 at 06:12 PM.

  8. #2028
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Oh and just so people know I'm not "Just a Multi-classer"

    These are my Favorite/ Most Played Characters

    Halfing Arty 20
    Human Wizard18/Rogue2
    Dwarf Wizard12/Fighter6/Rogue2
    Half-Elf Sorc 20
    Human Paladin18/Fighter2

    So I have a Mix of Single-Class, Dual-Class & Triple-Class.

    Anyways here's my quick mockup of what I think would work for everyone UI wise based on my suggestions (sorry their really crude)




    Note: With The Racial PrE becoming inherent to the Racial line instead of a seperate PrE it now works the same as the PrE lines except it takes more points so instead of 10pts. for tier 1 you -MIGHT- need 12pts (leave actual numbers up to the devs)

    Than for the multiclass UI there would be a button you can click that works similar to the Helmet/Goggle/None button except its Scroll-Bar/Wide/Compact (shown Below)




    Now remember just because Multi-classes have access to 6/8 Panes doesn't mean they can have 6/8 Tier 3 PrEs they have AT LEAST 1 limitation (2 if level gates are confirmed which is quite likely) to that we see in the Tempest Example that it takes 10/20/30 AP to take Tier 1/2/3 of a PrE (with extra "FREE" goodies between that) so even with the extra panes Multiclasses are still limited to the same amount of PrEs as Single-Classes are they just have the ability to take some of the enhancements from their splashes allowing them to retain their versatility at their leisure...or they can completely ignore them if they so choose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrin
    Originally Posted by The Enhancements v3 Spec
    5 Points Spent: +2 shield bonus when dual wielding
    10 Points Spent: Tempest I, +10% off hand attacks, Scimitars are treated as light weapons and can be finessed.
    15 Points Spent: +3 shield bonus when dual wielding
    20 Points Spent: Tempest II, +10% off hand attacks, Deflect Arrows while dual wielding
    15 Points Spent: +4 shield bonus when dual wielding
    30 Points Spent: Tempest III, +5% doublestrike when dual wielding
    41 Points Spent: Dervish - Full ability score bonus for damage on off hand
    Quote Originally Posted by Aashrym View Post
    If I want a melee bard under the new system I can make a dwarf bard 14 rogue 6 and go SD III, WC II, Assassin I still have AP left for some other whatevers. Where is the incentive to go pure on that?
    Simple really...enhancement wise that means you lose access to ALL Mechanic, Acrobat, Virtuoso and Spellsinger enhancements which COULD be stuff like haste boost, extended song, extra song, music of the dead, etc. while a Pure Bard could freely choose enhancements for ALL the PrE trees even if he could care less about the Virtuoso & Spellsinger PrEs themselves
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 01-13-2012 at 07:37 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  9. #2029
    Community Member HarveyMilk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    No.

    We would be paying for or farming for something we got free for a number of years.
    Except they're doing a full revamp of the enhancement system, ostensibly allowing new builds that we haven't had any access to at all ever. Allowing us to unlock the number of trees we can spend points in would be wholly different, and akin to an expansion that I am willing to unlock/pay for. Turbine needs to make money and there needs to be more to work for in the game, beyond loot grinding, win/win.

    It would be a sort of jack-of-all-trades unlock.

    But, if people are really against the idea of an earning/buying option, I vote for not locking of trees at all. Flexibility > fixed, however, I'd rather earn it and bring in revenue for the game.

  10. #2030

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    Quote Originally Posted by HarveyMilk View Post
    Except they're doing a full revamp of the enhancement system, ostensibly allowing new builds that we haven't had any access to at all ever. Allowing us to unlock the number of trees we can spend points in would be wholly different, and akin to an expansion that I am willing to unlock/pay for. Turbine needs to make money and there needs to be more to work for in the game, beyond loot grinding, win/win.

    It would be a sort of jack-of-all-trades unlock.

    But, if people are really against the idea of an earning/buying option, I vote for not locking of trees at all. Flexibility > fixed, however, I'd rather earn it and bring in revenue for the game.
    I wouldn't pay for the store unlocks either regardless. I can build within whatever trees we do have available.

  11. #2031
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HarveyMilk View Post
    Except they're doing a full revamp of the enhancement system, ostensibly allowing new builds that we haven't had any access to at all ever. Allowing us to unlock the number of trees we can spend points in would be wholly different, and akin to an expansion that I am willing to unlock/pay for. Turbine needs to make money and there needs to be more to work for in the game, beyond loot grinding, win/win.

    It would be a sort of jack-of-all-trades unlock.

    But, if people are really against the idea of an earning/buying option, I vote for not locking of trees at all. Flexibility > fixed, however, I'd rather earn it and bring in revenue for the game.
    No...thats like them charging use to equip armor or gloves or w/e...its a basic function of the game and theres no way people would accept that. They might as well start making us poay for "multi-class" tokens...or maybe for every 5 levels...oh wait they already did that...it was stupid...after they removed it their player base and revenue skyrocketed again
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  12. #2032
    Community Member BlackSteel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Your speculationg yes

    Thats an irrefutable fact

    Still not Ideal a but I'm also asking for multiclass PrEs so that would even things out.
    its nonsense math and you know it. w/o knowing whats available in the trees your 'math' is just as speculative. not to mention the limitation of available AP. I doubt even pure classes will be able to fit in everything they want. Heck I have characters now that cant fit in every desirable enhancement.

    multiclassing will still give options otherwise unavailable to your main class. nuff said
    Shadowsteel [TR train wreck]

  13. #2033

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riggs View Post
    I think it is safe to that that he has a view of what the game should be in his head, AND what the game is right now - that is different than most people.

    Facts and math can be slippery things....to some.
    Incorrect.

    The only misconception/argument, that only a few are making (Dkyle, Kingfisher, yourself most often in my opi) are that one person's opinion is somehow greater or more imperative to another's opinion.

    I feel I have more than read enough possible hypothetica from certain folks (details in first paragraph). I see those people attacking other people and blatantly insulting people for taking a different position. I think further debating the same hypothetica is nonsensical, but am amused watching others not grasp that nothing is close to being set in stone . (Aashrym is doing a great job explaining this and seems to be taking the most sensical approach.) Many others have offered their opinion only once or twice but they count just as much as another person giving his opinion 100+ times.

    I DO wish to read opinions from others that havent posted yet, but I think the constant negative feedback by a few is dissuading others from giving their opinions without being called bad things or have to deal with defending their opinions for 60+ pages...

    I will have more suggestions when I see new data... which I will patiently wait for.
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 01-13-2012 at 06:59 PM.


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  14. #2034
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackSteel View Post
    its nonsense math and you know it. w/o knowing whats available in the trees your 'math' is just as speculative. not to mention the limitation of available AP. I doubt even pure classes will be able to fit in everything they want. Heck I have characters now that cant fit in every desirable enhancement.
    I'm sorry but what does 2+2 = for you? because for me it equals 4
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  15. #2035

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    Quote Originally Posted by HarveyMilk View Post
    You do realize that 32-point builds are already available in the store, and for favor unlock, similar to my request for full tree unlock?
    Harvey, I know what you are saying, there will be a major backlash from both sides of this debate, and just about everyone in the middle if they tried to charge for basic toon creation.

    Buying 32-point builds is a time saver feature. You can still build any toon you want, all the build options are yours.

    Charging to unlock tree components would be an extremely vibrant catalyst for many to find another game.


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  16. #2036

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    Aashrym, Blacksteel, Vormaerin, Orakio, and Waterboytkd are making a lot of sense. I think they have taken a good solid level headed wait-and-see approach. I believe all of them have had great ideas while keeping upbeat.

    I believe there will be more multiclass builds running around than before. I believe its a boost for multis, and a bigger boost for pures. I believe they are trying to lessen balancing issues, and will succeed at that. And I view that as very good for the game. (they will not cure all balance issues, that will never be done in any game that bares a D&D logo).
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 01-13-2012 at 07:23 PM.


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  17. #2037
    Community Member Meat-Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by orakio View Post
    \ Meat-Head had a fantastic post probably 20 pages ago identifying what sounded like communal concerns, perhaps you could PM him as I believe he started a thread with that information so it didn't get so buried in this one.
    Hey thanks!

    Yeah, I just wanted to summarize the issues as simply as I could for people that haven't been bathing in this thread and maybe even devs.

    HEre it is: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=357609

    PLEASE let me know if I'm missing something major.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkrok View Post
    First, Meat-Head is exactly correct...

  18. #2038
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vormaerin View Post
    You can argue that fact free hysteria early is better than detail oriented analysis later, but I don't agree. Early days speculation without evidence is easily dismissed with "well, they don't see all the things we see."
    I'll keep this in mind any time I actually see "hysteria" in this thread...

  19. #2039
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artos_Fabril View Post
    stuff on his 13/6/1 build, specifically the part about what do you spend AP on if you lose access to certain trees
    My answer there is you spend APs on the new stuff in Acrobat, Assassin, and Tempest.

    It really comes down to what's in those trees. I've said before, and, well, I'm probably not going to say it again because I feel like this thread is devolving, but we don't know how restrictive a tree limit is until we see more details on the trees. 3 trees might be perfect. 3 trees might strangle multiclass builds to death. Unlimited trees might be well-balanced. Unlimited trees might give far too much to multiclass builds.

    However, the one thing I won't argue against is that your multiclass build is going to change. But I seriously hope that's not an issue, because every single build in this game is going to change.

  20. #2040
    Community Member Meat-Head's Avatar
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    Why am I still reading this thread? There hasn't been anything new (really) in the last several hundred posts. XD


    Oh well, let me hit f5 again and hope...

    LOL


    No wonder my wife thinks I waste time on this game.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkrok View Post
    First, Meat-Head is exactly correct...

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