I think that elite must be toned down a bit, hard even less, normal can be done
I think that elite must be toned down a bit, hard even less, normal can be done
Darkzess(Currently: Bbn) - Sturdycaster (Wiz) - Stormfists(Mnk) - Zeess (Art) - Zessx (FvS)Thelanis
Some of us like running at level content. I used to love going in there at level 16-17 with a bunch of random players the same range and Conquering it. We all got xp and had a blast. Some runs were easier then others but in the pug scene that can all change in the blink of a eye. Some runs we wiped miserably and left licking our wounds! But we came back and prevailed in the end.
Now that kind of behavior is unheard of with these new changes. Now people wont even join your level 15-17 shroud run. It really put a dent in the "at level" pug scene. It killed the raid for the new guy just breaking into the raiding! No one wants to be carried along a level 16 raid by epic geared level 20's on normal! Most would rather be amonst players their own level.
In the past any level 20 geared out player will tell you that shroud was easy on normal. Of course it was! They had dr breakers. They had all the cool Amrath belts! They had epic gear! even +3 and 4 tomes. Some had up to 3 items cleansed and on! Of course normal shroud was easy for this type of player. But it was never meant for that guy. He should have been grinding elite mode, not normal!
Normal in my opinion is meant for the guy who wants to Make his first shroud weapon or item. For the new player it is still a overwhelming task making a green steel item. It is a stepping stone into harder content! The new guy does not have a bag full of ingredients and millions of plat to buy them. 20 completions still takes 2 months give or take!
I Remember what it was like when i first started running it. It was crazy man! But it sure was a fun experience! I started playing a bit after it went f2p and quested with the surge of puggers who were new to the game and still learning by the day. Everyone needs to go back and remember what that was like! Before we had our minII or artificer to buff our litII ! Before we could just craft ourselves a perfect dr breaker. When we had to scour AH for a metaline greataxe of pure good and cringe at the price tag on it! Put yourselves in the new guys shoes..
Join a group of casual puggers who goes in there at level 16 with 300 hp and tries their darndest to beat up a massive ugly evil pit fiend with half assed weapons and poor gear. These were still real crazy runs in old shroud. Completion was far from guaranteed. For these players the old raid on normal was a blast.
I Miss these runs! They were always a hoot! So i say change normal back to the way it was. Nothing was wrong with old Normal shroud.
Born to play, Forced to work !
Just a thought to help 'fix' it without actually 'nerfing' anything. Something like this, and by that I mean a REAL change to the quest design, would have the added benefit of encouraging more team play. You'd loose two dpsers during the fight, but potentially make the fight easier to survive in the long run.
Originally Posted by Towrn
I guess the question here is pretty straightforward: should we revert the changes to the blade section of the Shroud - perhaps just on Normal difficulty?
My experience with blades has been fairly bland. Before these changes, I died once to them because I was having connectivity issues and stood in the middle of them with a sorcerer. This happened once out of say, seven runs.
After these changes, I have died once to them, with my Artificer, because I was trying to scroll-heal some melee types because the healers had died to the blades. This is once out of nine runs and counting.
As a primarily ranged player, the blades are zero threat to me, so I don't have a stake in whether they are changed or not. I think for the most part, players have adjusted to the new reality of how to run the quest as I haven't been in a shroud that wiped in weeks. (Been in a few elites as well, yes)
I think they can be adjusted, but not rolled back to pre-patch levels. They present threat and should do so as they present an interactive mechanic.
I'm sure that I'm repeating the sentiment of some, but I didn't bother reading the whole thread. I think that the damage of the blades would be fine in all difficulties if there was a way to avoid them in addition to twitch skills. I'm talking via game mechanics like AC or saves. Personally, I think that AC is the better option, but a reflex save could work too I suppose.
For the AC option you could make the attack bonus on the blades scale with difficulty (along with damage as current), perhaps something like 25 on normal, 35 on hard, and 50 on elite. In that way everyone could be in the ballpark for avoiding some hits on normal, but low AC characters would have to be more careful on higher difficulties. Also, let them get grazing hits so super high AC guys won't only take damage when they roll a 1. I'm not sure how the damage is calculated for the blades currently and therefore I'm not sure how potent grazing hits would end up being from them, but if you could make them be roughly half the damage of normal hits that would probably work. After all, grazing hits are only going to apply to those whose AC is in the upper bounds of or above the attack range of the blades and you don't won't anyone to be able to just ignore them completely. Half damage hits 40% (and full damage 5%) of the time on high AC characters is reasonable for elite and enough to make them want to move out of the blades while still rewarding them for building their character with high AC.
The blades should be dangerous, but it should also be possible to build your character in such a way as to mitigate (not negate) the threat from them. I think there's enough reflex saves already and it's trivial for classes with evasion to have high reflex saves. The blades shouldn't be that easily trivialized. That is why I think AC is the better mechanic to use for them. It actually takes some effort to get higher AC.
As an aside, I've seen other people say that DR is not affecting blade damage, but I've not verified that myself. Is that really true? What about physical damage vulnerability reduction from the shield mastery feats, etc? Both of those things should surely apply to the damage from blades if they do not already.
However, regular lag is a fact of life in this game, and it is frustrating when a second or two of lag is enough to kill you because for some reason the devs decided to make the blades deal huge amounts of damage.
The extra chests are on hard and elite. Give hard and elite more of a challenge by keeping the blades as is. If it's a good night with no lag we can run hard or elite. If it is a usual night with a few seconds of lag every minute or two, let us run Normal with the blades the way they used to be.
Part three and part four are no harder than they used to be on the days/nights there is no lag. When there is lag (which is at least as often, if not more often than when there is no lag) part three and part four are a huge annoyance and multiple deaths that have nothing to do with player skill or awareness are common.
Please change the blade damage back to normal on normal. It seems like a much easier fix than eliminating the lag, though if you could do that, please do.
All on Thelanis: Archenpaul Sixblade, Archernicus Thornwood, Gregorovic Redcloak, Hermanius Brightblade, Jaklomeo Evermug, Jonathraxius Kane, and Praetoreus Silvershield.
Cogito ergo summopere periculosus.
Tone down the damage on normal or at least allow a save against the damage.
Since the change, I have yet to see a Shroud up that includes 16's. Rarely I will see them allow 17's. Mostly 18's-20's are asked for to run a level 17 quest.
The raid is supposed to be about beating Harry and his LT's. Now it's all about surviving the blades.
Some are crying to leave it alone on normal as it provides an added challenge. Well folks can run it on hard and or elite for the extra challenge.
I lead shrouds quite often and have only had one wipe out of those. And even though I have it down and can lead to a completion, it's just stupid how EVERYTHING depends on the blades.
The amount of shroud LFM's on Argo have dropped through the floor since the update. Is that better for the game? I think not.
The Fockers of Argo
Fuglymofo; LOOON; Hobaggin; Fuglyrobo; Buttscracher; Whoaa
As I have already stated before, here: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=352524
I really like the added challenge of the blades.
I don't know who the people are that are having difficulty with part 4, because I've had a 1-rounder every single time since the update.
Note, I run it in straight, honest-to-goodness PUGs. I'm in no special channels, and run with no particular guilds, other than the one I'm in, but have yet to have a guild run.
I play a healer, a FvS, as well.
Seriously, get some teamwork together, talk it through before running headlong into pt.4, and use some crowd-control!
Hell, just have someone charm the last devil, wait till the blades clear, drop him and rock-n-roll.
Easy-peasy, every time.
I've pretty much run all the elite raid/epic content in the game, including Epic Chains of Flame, Epic Chronoscope, and Elite ToD. I'm multi TR and am geared out in raid and epic loot. I have also run elite Shroud, both pre and post patch. I feel that the current elite Shroud ranks up there with the hardest content in the game - epic LoB included.
I won't repeat what everyone else said, but this is a non-endgame raid that heavily favors casters. The blades do tons of damage on normal alone; 500+ hp shouldn't be reduced to 0 in a second. They need to do less damage, or be avoidable (blur, reflex, w/e), or both.
Current normal should be old normal, current hard should be current normal, and current elite should be current hard - AND the blades need the aforementioned tweak. Elite Shroud really shouldn't be harder than most epics for a group of properly geared 20's, and normal Shroud should absolutely be doable by 16~17's. Please fix this.
PUGging this on Khyber has barely changed at all, except way more Hard/Elite runs than before. The difficulty is entirely reasonable, and well rewarded. Failure mostly comes from poor play, and bad builds, as it should.
While the difficulty is not out of line, I don't think the blades are very fair, since they bypass almost all defenses. There should be a reward for high AC or Reflex/Evasion.
Last edited by UrbanPyro; 04-01-2014 at 01:36 PM.
~Aetherierlla~ | ~Alioria~ | ~Ausla~ | ~Blitzclank~ | ~Boomclank~ | ~Sputtering~
As a casual gamer I hated the shroud before the change and now i'm just plain afraid of it. I'd very much like to see normal difficulty revert back to the way it was before the change or at least be more like it use it be than it is now, a nightmare.
As it is now I won't even run the shroud, you can keep your greensteel it's not worth the effort or the risk to me.
Some combination of:
1. Make reflex saves and evasion work against blades.
2. Give blades an attack roll.
3. Reduce the blade attack rate a smidge. 5 x 60hp ticks in the approximate ping time while group DPS is high is the biggest problem. (my ping time ramps up from an expected 310ms while idle up to 1200-2000ms while we're beating down portals).
If the above are dealt with appropriately, then there's no need to adjust the blade damage - allowing DR to apply is probably worth considering though.
There have been a couple of times on normal when my ~450ish hp evasion toon has been shredded at the start of the beatdown in part 4. Both times I saw those blades it was already too late...
Another suggestion - how about mixing up part 1 a bit by randomising portal spawn locations somewhat? It might be a bit more interesting if we actually had to spend a few seconds figuring out where the next portal every time instead of using autopilot.
Goe ahed... korekt mah spelin'.
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I only know Shroud lag happens always on completing the part on the way to shrines. That's mostly noticable after part 2,3,4. I don't know what's causing the lags - DDO is like a comic book for a few seconds, but it's nasty. Maybe you're doing some cleaning up - freeing memory or something, maybe you're just postprocessing something in order to send to all the clients, maybe it's just old DPS calculation traffic which still hasn't been sent to clients.
It's depressing to be squashed by a lag spike in part IV - I got sliced and diced on my DOS pally with over 700 hp without even the time to throw a lay on hands a few weeks back, and that's just annoying. Wipes from people being chuckleheads I can deal with. I would dial the blade damage back a little to try and encourage PUGGles simply because the game is so quiet ATM and normal Shroud was one of those things always available if you had nothing else to do, you know?
I've not run Hard or Elite post the blade ramp up so don't really have an opinion on those difficulties.
Terebinthia, Terebynthia, Tereana, Tereaina, Tereanna, Terebyte, Terechan, Terebinthis
The Hand of the Black Tower, Khyber.
Fix the lag and it would be fine.
Getting mown down by a bladespawn with a hitbox the size of an elephant that ticks incredibly fast is not fun...especially when you don't even see it or didn't appear to be anywhere near it. Really, we should be fighting the big devil in the middle, not the blades. They should do some damage but shouldnt be the cause of 90% of deaths.
Throw a save in there or make AC relevent or DR or SOMETHING...it's too easy at the moment to lag for just a second and get hit for 12x50 damage and DING.
It's still a level 17 raid...if you want to change it to make it challenging for average 20th level groups on normal, then at least have the stones to change the quest level as well...it's deceptive at the moment.
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