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  1. #21
    Community Member Calebro's Avatar
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    Do not revert to the way that it was.
    The Shroud was boring, but necessary. It has become fun again.

    With that said.... they're too unforgiving on Normal. Normal is the difficulty that newbies should be running. Newbies do not have the gear and/or experience to survive the blades as they are now. So you've created a situation where the targeted demographic for that particular difficulty is doomed to fail unless they have players from outside of that demographic there to carry them .
    This is a poorly implemented mechanic, as it stands.

    Leave the blades mechanically, but tone down the damage that they do on Normal.
    And *only* on Normal. Anyone that wants to run anything harder should damn well know what they're getting themselves into.
    .

  2. #22
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    As others have said here and elsewhere, because of the nature of the blades, lag can cause players die instantly on normal. The two suggests I have for the blades are 1) tone that the damage on normal and add a reflex save or 2) tone down the number of hits per second and add a reflex save. Either way, add a reflex save. What's the reason for having a high reflex save or evasion if it doesn't work in situations like the blades?

  3. #23

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    For the betterment of the modern DDO gamer, I feel that normal difficulty should be dialed back to the way it was, or at least have the blade damage tuned way down. Hard and elite are fine.

    I feel the way it is now, it leaves many newer players feeling that greensteel is just an impossibility to make now. Some longer time players feel no different.

    Our guild was insistent on getting the duke, and we did in short order. However, we were beating Shroud regularly before "the fix". Many on the forums however are astute and will state Shroud is "fun/challenging again", and I must agree with that sentiment.

    The problem I see is that not all guilds found it easy to beat a shroud before "the fix", and now many dont even bother trying. That's unfortunate.

    Puggin shouldnt be the only way for those folks to complete a shroud, but thats reality now for many in newer or smaller guilds.
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 12-23-2011 at 04:37 AM.


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  4. #24
    Community Member Aelonwy's Avatar
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    As I said in the other Lets Talk thread, elite is the difficulty to challenge players till they cry uncle. On normal please lower the blade damage some, and/or add a reflex save. Do NOT remove the blades because they need to be there for players to gain the skills to avoid them should they wish to challenge themselves with higher difficulties.
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  5. #25
    Community Member Yokido's Avatar
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    I agree that the end rewards should definitely be tucked to a list of interesting (but BTC) ingredients..
    From shavarath goodies to larges or shards, or how about throwing in stacks of 25 greater crafting essences while we're tweaking it? I know you guys are working on the list, and this isn't me criticizing what it is now,
    because what it is now is better than what it used to be, that can be said.

    Here's a list of what the end reward list slots should be filled with in my opinion(not sure if I got the number right)
    Shavarath goody or Vale goodyx2(no duplicates please)
    Largesx2(no duplicates please)
    Greater crafting essences stack(variable)x1
    Renown(variable)x1
    Shard(of variable size)x1
    Eberron shards(any size)/Tome/Major sp pot/tiny xp(or slayer) potx1
    -The list provides plenty of choices, none of which should be considered game breaking..
    The rarer objects would obviously have to be rarer, an existence of them would be nice though.

    Also, to provide you with a possible fix for the blades.
    Hide a feat on everyone that allows them(much like the deflect arrows feat given to monks)
    to make a save against blades every few seconds.. Damage is reduced, being swiped
    by blades is less deadly(to ease things on squishies), but standing in them is the same amount of deadly.

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by morticianjohn View Post
    The requirements for people to be somewhat competent in HP and playskill have gone up so fewer lvl 16-17's are running it though I don't know that this is all bad.
    Whaaa? It's a level 17 quest. I would expect level 16 and 17s to be running it.

    Anyhow, generally speaking I think the shroud be returned to the level of difficulty it was before the blades fix, and before the HP increases on hard/elite difficulties, but keep the increased rewards on hard/elite and the newest end rewards system.

    Why? This allows newer players to acquire their greensteel more quickly than was previously available, and helps narrow the gap between newer players and long standing ones. Lets face it... the increase in difficulty on hard/elite has little impact on the people that are already well geared and knowledgeable, in tight guilds and well formed social networks... they'll be able to take advantage of the new chests and additional ingredients with little extra effort, which actually widens the gap between the new and the old.

  7. #27
    Community Member Calebro's Avatar
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    I'd also like to point out that an attack roll and/or a reflex save would be greatly appreciated on the blades.
    .

  8. #28
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    When the shroud was released the designers also stated that they figured people would not complete the full raid. REMEMBER this fact. Players were told point blank it was ok not to finish.

    The issue with the blades is that they allow for ZERO chance of not being hit which is frankly a #$@#$#@@$ in the world of DnD. (save when you tick off the DM) By PnP rules they should be rolling to hit us via our AC score.

    Given the auto hitting and the fact that the it just an area check so client server issues exasperate this 5 fold.... The blades have always been, frankly, a really petulant jerk move by Turbine.

    There are several ways to fix this.
    1. keep the auto hitting but make it like a charge such that they can only strike once every second max.
    2. Make it roll an AC check.

    Heck, just thinking about it, given the fact they are constantly doing area checks, no wonder shroud lags like crazy at times. Eladrin stated that area checking his heavily expensive. Those things are roving area checks in a concentrated area.

    I can appreciate the fact that the blades do more damage and are deadly. I have zero issues with this. Infact I'm in the group that applauds that. However, I have major issues with how they were designed as listed above.
    As long as the Thac0... sorry to hit of the blades is within reach for people other than tanks / monk splashes I'd agree but we're probably better off giving the blades a reflex save with AC the way it is atm.

  9. #29
    Community Member KillEveryone's Avatar
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    The Shroud is still pug friendly.

    Every one of my completions of Shroud is mostly pug, with maybe 2 guildies if they run when I'm doing them.

    It takes a while for divines to make an appearance so it may take a little bit longer but it is still totally puggable.

    People are also completing more often instead of doing the farm thing. There are still a few farming but not like they used to. This is why there had been somewhat of a reduction of Shroud LFMs. Really though, if someone want's to toss up a Shroud LFM when none are on, nothing is stopping them. They may need to be patient to get the group to fill but it will fill.

    I'm quite happy with the blades. They should be painful. We should not just be able to stand inside the blades and just brute force heal through them. That was a total joke even at level.

    Tactics on how to deal with them have now evolved and we adapted. It just took time.
    Last edited by KillEveryone; 12-22-2011 at 05:25 PM.
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  10. #30
    The Hatchery CaptainSpacePony's Avatar
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    Default My two coppers

    I like it how it is now. Everyone wailed right after the change. Now many/most are/have adapted. Everyone talks about part 4, but I enjoy the blades now in part 3. They used to be a joke, but now they are a real factor! Huge improvement there.

    It seems silly that we used to fight through the blades in part 4 and survive. If you feel compelled to nerf, please do so gently. If you have a lot of zots to blow, make the blades targetable so we can nuke them!

    Oh, and extend the forums login session time! It's really annoying to have to relog in after I type my post only to learn I've timed out!

  11. #31
    The Hatchery Galeria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    However, while he was 'in there', the designer felt compelled to fix a longstanding bug with the blades.
    BTW... what's his name?

    And.. um... where does he live?

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  12. #32
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    Default Yes, yes, yes, yes, please

    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    It appears that we've taken what was a very pug friendly experience for pugs and changed it such that's it no longer - well - pug friendly.

    I guess the question here is pretty straightforward: should we revert the changes to the blade section of the Shroud - perhaps just on Normal difficulty?
    Yes.

    I have no doubt, just from the fact that you posted this thread as a separate topic, that you know Shroud PUGs are down significantly. Aside from the dynamics of the quest, right or wrong, difficult or not, the ancillary benefits of how players interacted, were welcome to interact, and did interact, was the unwitting victim of this change.

    The change to make Hard and Elite more difficult - with a corresponding increase in reward - was a good one. Players HAD asked for it. No one asked for the change to Normal. In addition, as my last Shroud run demonstrated, it is easier for one twit to have 'fun' start wacking devils without listening to the group and possibly causing a wipe (as they did in my last run). That is a bad outcome for DDO and the players. Further, for any player who wanted more challenge, you gave them the option - run Hard and Elite. Any player claiming they "like" the challenge of Normal now but don't run Hard and Elite is simply trolling. As you asked in your thread on game difficulty, Normal should be a completion for an at level PUG group, of first lifers, with little to no gear and average skill. Old shroud was PERFECT for this.

    Not only did the change result in a significant reduction in Shroud runs, it really redcued players incentive to log into the game. In our guild, many players built their DDO schedule around Shroud runs and counted on logging in, picking up a Shroud. Now, they just don't log in nearly as often.

    Truly, I am at a loss to understand why the change was made to fix "normal" Shroud when it wasn't nroken and was one of the most run, if not the most, quests in the game - something ALL caliber and style of players could enjoy together.

    My worry now is this - even if you change it back, will the players return?
    Last edited by Hafeal; 12-22-2011 at 05:28 PM.
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  13. #33
    Community Member bhgiant's Avatar
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    For me, now, the Shroud is not that hard. After getting used to it, I can pug it regularly without fail. However, I am level 20 with multiple GS items and even an epic. So I really should be running Shroud at Hard or Elite. I don't. Why? Because the risk of failure is too high. To get that far and not complete is too much of a drain on my time, even if I do get another chest.

    Normal difficult is NOT ok the way it is right now. Multiple threads have discussed this so I will summarize. The Shroud is a level 17 raid. New players should be able to run it as a group at 17 and still have a chance of completing it on their FIRST LIFE. As it is right now, they would wipe, hands down. The blade damage is just too high. It should be difficult at 17 (it IS a raid) but it shouldn't be impossible which I feel it is at level. The blades should do less damage on normal, and scale with difficulty. Also, I don't mind the blades hitting higher damage, but the blade mechanic hitting 5x a second seems odd to me. I think this should be "unifxed" imo, even at higher difficulty settings.

    As far as the loot goes. Thank you for giving us a better selection at the end reward. Thank you for giving us extra chests at higher difficulties. These were needed changes that give greater rewards for greater effort and make the grind more enjoyable.

    Thank you for making the Shroud more original as well. Really like the devils spawning blades and that Harry reigns fire down on us after round 1 etc. More minor flavor changes like this are what we want and call for when we say "The Shroud is boring..."
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  14. #34
    Community Member ferd's Avatar
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    Adapt, Improvise & Overcome.

    Tough call. As we have adapted to the changes, I'd rather Have Harry get a face lift & get to the gym (not insane hp or saves) just a little extra casting is all, and trash the blade changes.


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  15. #35
    The Hatchery dejafu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aelonwy View Post
    As I said in the other Lets Talk thread, elite is the difficulty to challenge players till they cry uncle. On normal please lower the blade damage some, and/or add a reflex save. Do NOT remove the blades because they need to be there for players to gain the skills to avoid them should they wish to challenge themselves with higher difficulties.
    Definite agreement on this. The problem with the blades isn't the damage, it's the fact that the damage can't be avoided in any way other than going around them. Give us a reflex save for half damage, and let evasion work on them.

    Also, any way at all they can be coded in such a way that we can safely jump over them?
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  16. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Calebro View Post
    Do not revert to the way that it was.
    The Shroud was boring, but necessary. It has become fun again.

    With that said.... they're too unforgiving on Normal. Normal is the difficulty that newbies should be running. Newbies do not have the gear and/or experience to survive the blades as they are now. So you've created a situation where the targeted demographic for that particular difficulty is doomed to fail unless they have players from outside of that demographic there to carry them .
    This is a poorly implemented mechanic, as it stands.

    Leave the blades mechanically, but tone down the damage that they do on Normal.
    And *only* on Normal. Anyone that wants to run anything harder should damn well know what they're getting themselves into.
    My argument for leaving it as was on all difficulties but with the increased loot returns is that the shroud really isn't supposed to be fun for players like you and me anymore. We should be playing the shiny new super hard content, and the only reason we're running shrouds is to reslot an item we've replaced with an Epic item, or kit out a new character we're leveling. Leaving the difficulty alone but increasing loot means you spend less time in there at all... you pug out elites get faster returns and get back to the fun content. It also means first character first lifers and casual gamers can acquire greensteel quicker by learning (and enjoying) the shroud as is with better returns. It helps them catch up, essentially, getting more people to the newer end game, which provides impetus to the devs to continue focusing on new more challenging end game content.

  17. #37
    Community Member grayham's Avatar
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    The change was good. My own opinion is that some very strongly worded threads post-changes were knee jerk, and groups have now adapted to the changes.

    Change can be good.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    This thread assumes you are familiar with the Shroud and are aware of how it played before and after recent changes.

    Designers had noticed that more often than not, players weren't completing all phases of the Shroud and in the spirit of 'making things better', it was decided that more incentive was called for. Loot changes were made. However, while he was 'in there', the designer felt compelled to fix a longstanding bug with the blades.

    Controvery ensued.

    It appears that we've taken what was a very pug friendly experience for pugs and changed it such that's it no longer - well - pug friendly.

    I guess the question here is pretty straightforward: should we revert the changes to the blade section of the Shroud - perhaps just on Normal difficulty?
    Please NO!!! The Shroud was one of the most boring runs in the game. It was truly a snooze fest. The Blades make it fun again.

    The only change I would make to them would be to add a reflex save (a high one so it's not an insta-save) and make evasion work against them. That would encourage more diversity in party make up.
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  19. #39
    Community Member bhgiant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hafeal View Post
    ...The change to make Hard and Elite more difficult - with a corresponding increase in reward - was a good one...

    ...Any player claiming they "like" the challenge of Normal now but don't run Hard and Elite is simply trolling....

    ...Truly, I am at a loss to understand why the change was made to fix "normal" Shroud when it wasn't broken...
    +1 to you sir. Echo my sentiments exactly.
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  20. #40
    Community Member Vengeance777's Avatar
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    Elite is great please don't change the blades on it. Its a fun challenging raid again where people can't go afk with autoattack on.

    A lot of wipes seem to be coming from lag hitting and being unable to dodge the blades, so I'd focus on fixing the lag over the blades damage. Most of the lag wipes seem to be caused by lag hitting as the blades close in and players being unable to move. When they can move they suddenly take a ton of ticks of blade damage and die. Not sure if its DPS causing the lag or calculations for blades hitting or what, but the lag seems to be like the preupdate 5 dps lag.
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