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  1. #221
    Community Member gloopygloop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flavilandile View Post
    No idea in the US., I wasn't in US in U1... I was in Europe and it was called Modules, and for a time an European Module was one or several Ux bunched together... and between the Module Shroud was released and the European Shutdown numerous time.
    That's actually why I mentioned between U1 and U11. Because when the Shroud first came out, people kind of had to do it at level since level 20 didn't exist.

    And those people who were completing it at-level when it was introduced were very well geared because many of them had been sitting at the level cap for a while AND there were a lot of failures when people tried to do the Shroud in the beginning, when "at level" was all that was available. I would really like to know where this "it was easy and we always completed it with no resources (pots) used when it first came out" myth came from.

  2. #222
    Hatchery Hero BOgre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Systern View Post
    Hi! I'm specifically not in the demographic you asked for. I'm a newer player, I've been playing less than three months. I find that statement funny, since I can't recall playing any computer game in my life for more than three months, and certainly wouldn't say that I was 'new' to it after the first three days.

    But Yes, I'm a 1st life player. Non-twinked. Still learning these new quests as they open up to me. I have a 28pt level 12 rogue, a level 15 Drow bard, and now a 32pt level 11 Artificer. I don't think I'm the typical respondent you'll get in the forums here.

    I'm premium, not VIP. I've paid cash for certain packs and perks, but I'm not your monthly bread-and-butter. I understand this. My other posts in the forums have been about buying the Challenge Pack, and being disheartened that the reward system is biased towards those that have Level 20 TRs and are inclined to farm for things. (you need to have a level 10 to get the mats for a level 8 item; You need to have a level 15 to get the mats for a tier 2 level 8 item. Human nature is to work towards the future, not the past. This is bad design.)

    From what I've gathered from reading this thread, I have the following understandings:

    Vale is 3.5 years old.
    Green Steel has become 'baseline' in expectations both from the player base when running higher level content, and from design when making new content such as Secrets of the Artificers.

    So, I have two questions for you:

    Why are you changing the parameters for hitting this baseline?

    and

    How do you expect me, as a new to your game customer, to get to this baseline?

    Do I need to find a guild for a mentor to teach, train, or twink me? Do I have any hope of finding a group of peers that we can discover and experience this together? Is this just like Vaults of the Artificers, where the content is being refactored for the bread and butter, and me as a new-guy have just been sold a Bill of Goods in buying Vale; Caveat Emptor!


    DDO has a large history and longevity. The barrier to entry is already large because of the huge learning curve of all the things that have been added over the years. Why make it harder for us new guys to enter?
    So true. I can't even set foot into the level 19-20 content, House C stuff, as a level 20 toon, even though I've been playing a year now. Without mid-level crafted beaters I wouldn't stand a chance in Shroud, to get the GS I'll need for that stuff. Overall character progression design seems very backwards to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Towrn
    ...when the worst thing that happens when you make a mistake at your job is someone complains on the internet, you probably care a little less!

  3. #223
    Community Member noinfo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gloopygloop View Post
    How often did 12 level 15-17 28 point characters equipped with items found from loots in previous levels complete a Shroud between U1 and U11?


    It's possible that you might need a two hands to count them instead of just one hand, but it's possible that the count might squeak in on just one hand.
    It was mods back in the day and Shroud came out at cap 16. It was level 13-16 who ran it. Infact many of my toons in there leveling cycles left giant hold at 13 to get to vale to flag as fast as they could to get into shroud and often ran it at 13/14! Especially my clerics. The only advantage back then was that to break harrys dr you only needed a transmuter. Harry has more hp now and meteor swarm has a bit more kick to it being non evadeable (rock bits) and now of course the blades, but I can tell you that we often pugged normal shrouds 13-16 and completed. Part 2 could be nasty and part 4 as well often took 2-3 rounds sometimes more but it got done. Part 5 was an art form since no one has mass heal, it was run the fountains and alternate mass cures/scrolls usually with no metas to maximise spell points. Now I will be honest and say many were 32 point builds not 28 though both my clerics and my wizard certainly were 28 pointers and they were not loaded up with gear anywhere near what beginning players get today and that is the truth of it. On Kyber Arranticus, Boldrins and Balar (when he could not pike the other 2s) in my time zone pugged it every day since it was end game for so long and while after quite a bit there were a core of people who hade GS items and that helped alot there were alot more in those groups who had basic transmuters. Of course this changed as people ran more and more particulary since there was nothing else to do and it was the ONLY source of crafted specific gear.
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  4. #224
    Community Member noinfo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gloopygloop View Post
    That's actually why I mentioned between U1 and U11. Because when the Shroud first came out, people kind of had to do it at level since level 20 didn't exist.

    And those people who were completing it at-level when it was introduced were very well geared because many of them had been sitting at the level cap for a while AND there were a lot of failures when people tried to do the Shroud in the beginning, when "at level" was all that was available. I would really like to know where this "it was easy and we always completed it with no resources (pots) used when it first came out" myth came from.
    There were certainly failure but once people developed stragegies it was more of the person leading the raid that controlled much of the success ratios.

    Oh and you might want to think about what very well geared meant for those who were capped at level 14 (abbot was broken so don't even think about the gear from there)
    We had
    Deathnips
    Cloudburst? and um...

    Banisher and Vorpals/Disrupters were more poweful back then I will admit however only vorpals worked in shroud and of course the mighty WOP reached its peak during those times.

    Oh as far as resources goes, they were used particulary cure mod scrolls however pots were only needed in emergency situations and normally only in part 4 when it was going longer than expected. Part 5 was much easier to manage via pool running alternating scroll heals (cure mod) and no meta cure spells with your potency item (no 75% boost healing items)
    Last edited by noinfo; 12-23-2011 at 11:01 AM.
    Milacias of Kyber

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  5. #225
    Community Member mobrien316's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synthetic View Post
    It also lowered the 'required hit points' because you can simply play well and not get hit a lot if you have low hit points and no one expects you to sit through the blades - where as before you went to sleep and relied on have 300+ hp depending on difficulty and heal spam.
    I have seen just the opposite on Thelanis.

    Before the blade change, I don't recall ever seeing a Shroud LFM with minimum hit point requirements. Now I see them often, though not all the time.

    The blade damage is such that a second or so of lag (which is unavoidable many nights) if fatal if you have less than 450 HP. I can recall one Shroud group that I joined and finally dropped after twenty minutes, as the leader would admit someone and then immediately drop them if they didn't have enough hit points. After twenty minutes we were still only three people and I left to join a different group.
    All on Thelanis: Archenpaul Sixblade, Archernicus Thornwood, Gregorovic Redcloak, Hermanius Brightblade, Jaklomeo Evermug, Jonathraxius Kane, and Praetoreus Silvershield.

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  6. #226
    Community Member Geonis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HGM-Chi View Post
    My argument for leaving it as was on all difficulties but with the increased loot returns is that the shroud really isn't supposed to be fun for players like you and me anymore. We should be playing the shiny new super hard content, and the only reason we're running shrouds is to reslot an item we've replaced with an Epic item, or kit out a new character we're leveling. Leaving the difficulty alone but increasing loot means you spend less time in there at all... you pug out elites get faster returns and get back to the fun content. It also means first character first lifers and casual gamers can acquire greensteel quicker by learning (and enjoying) the shroud as is with better returns. It helps them catch up, essentially, getting more people to the newer end game, which provides impetus to the devs to continue focusing on new more challenging end game content.
    This is my exact feeling about all content. As it ages, rewards levels should be turned up a bit, since that is no longer the "end game" grind.
    Hi, I play Generic Fantasy RPG Online, formerly known as DDO.

  7. #227
    2014 DDO Players Council Flavilandile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gloopygloop View Post
    That's actually why I mentioned between U1 and U11. Because when the Shroud first came out, people kind of had to do it at level since level 20 didn't exist.

    And those people who were completing it at-level when it was introduced were very well geared because many of them had been sitting at the level cap for a while AND there were a lot of failures when people tried to do the Shroud in the beginning, when "at level" was all that was available. I would really like to know where this "it was easy and we always completed it with no resources (pots) used when it first came out" myth came from.
    There is no comparison possible with the items we had then and the ones we have now. When we first did Shroud nobody had Greensteel, GEOB and GLOB weapons were not there. At best we had a Transmuting weapon, a vorpal or a WOP weapon.
    There was some failure, but you could reliably do it on normal with a pugged party of LVL 16.
    As for ressources consumption... Mana potions were rare, elusive stuff looted from chest and quest reward. They weren't to be used except in the most dire circumstances and for exceptionnal tthings [ read : Elite Shroud ]. We mostly had to make do with what we had in our blue bars... ( without SP Item, without ToD Belt, without... well without 200/300 SP less )
    That meant people waited in Part 3 for refill at the pond after group buffs, People waited in Part 2 for caster to hug the trees, People kited one lieutenant in part 5 to give time to the caster to refill at the ponds.

    All in all, and to make sure things are understood : Shroud is a LVL 16ish raid, it's not an end game content anymore ( and it hasn't been once since Amrath ) and it should be breezed through by parties of LVL 20 characters equipped as they are right now. ( at least on normal and maybe even hard... they still should have to be careful on elite )
    Last edited by Flavilandile; 12-23-2011 at 11:17 AM.
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  8. #228
    Community Member KraahgDaAxe's Avatar
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    Pages 2-10 were TL/DR, but at the expense of repeating what others have said...

    Saves for blades. DR should count (I get damage reduced from Horoth but not the blades?).

    Otherwise I find the RAID just slightly more challenging on normal then it was before. Only run Hard once, pre update and it wasn't that difficult. Keep it the same other then the above.

    Loot changes are eWin.

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  9. #229
    Community Member muffinlad's Avatar
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    Default A different point of view.

    From what I have read, my view is someone contrary to others I have seen expressed.

    A) I think the blades on Normal are Fine. People have adapted. There are still occasional failures, but not as many as there were in the first week.

    B) I think the blades on Hard/Elite are overboard, and the overall rewards from the quest that you have "upgraded" do not match the risk/Reward scale level of difficulty that most folks are expecting.

    I would suggest making Elite the same as the current Hard, and Hard somewhere inbetween E and N.

    OR

    Upping the rewards even further. As it stands now, these are way beyond level, and the extra chests do not cut it.

    Regards,

    muffinlad
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  10. #230
    Community Member arkonas's Avatar
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    blades should stay but the damage should be scaled back on normal. it shouldnt be that freaking dangerous. also it makes some new people hate shroud. i dont think they should lose it just scale it back a little

  11. #231

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    Please don't get rid of the blades entirely from normal, as one person has suggested - people need to learn a little about them on normal before trying proper difficulties.

    That being said, a reduction in danger (at least at normal) is in order. As someone who's first toon was a rogue, I had difficulty getting into pug shrouds with my measley 330HP. How could I get a first-timer rogue in any top raid or end-game content now? The GS HP item isn't an optional piece of equipment for most toons. The impact of con-opp is also significant. Pushing out the time when people can get that gear pushes out the time before they can start serious raiding and frankly levels 18-20 are not that fun if you can't raid - the exp is slow in coming and the quests aren't all great.

    If you keep the blades as they are, please consider changes to the penalty box in stage 4. Properly handled blades don't kill informed people any more than Harry does. Lag, however...

    Can you give people a chance in stage 4 - maybe take up the LoB anti-rez tactic rather than a penalty box? They'll miss a round, but if someone can escape the lag monster then there is at least a chance of recovery.

  12. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    I guess the question here is pretty straightforward: should we revert the changes to the blade section of the Shroud - perhaps just on Normal difficulty?
    Absolutely not.

    Before update 12, Shroud was a joke, particularly part 4. Zone in, kill a couple of mobs, melee run to center and auto-attack/AFK, and divine casters throw heals. (BTW, when we start to talk about class balance, we also need to talk about the minimal effort required to play a melee toon in this game compared to any kind of caster.)

    In a raid where something as important as green steel is handed out, that isn't acceptable.

    Last night, my cleric ran a Shroud hard. Its the holidays season so it was a slow fill, and the group leader had to fill the last spot with a non-evasion melee toon who had less than 300 HP and didn't even know what fortification is. (By some miracle, he had acquired 25% fortification along the way.) The group leader was playing a quality arcane, we had couple other good players, and the rest were some where between the top 4 and the last spot in terms of quality.

    Frankly, I expected to wipe on hard, and thought normal might be a struggle, but I'm always up for a challenge so in we went. Part 4 did take 3 rounds, but after round 1 it was already clear we were in no danger of wiping, and part 5 was the usual victory lap.

    Even the updated Shroud is amazingly easy.

    For some perspective, lets imagine swapping Shroud and Abbot. Put Abbot in the Vale pack, Shroud in Necro 4, keep all flagging in place so its just a matter of stepping into the alternate quest. Abbott drops green steel ingredients, Shroud drops the loot that previously dropped in Abbot. Seriously, make the code change and patch it into the live servers.

    The forum complaint threads would stretch into the 100's of pages.

    The ONLY reason we are even having this discussion is that Shroud drops mats for green steel weapons and everything in this game that affects melee has to be one immense easy button.

    Leave Shroud alone and fix Abbot.

    If you still believe you have to trivialize Shroud, adopt the LoB model. Have normal drop smalls, hard drop mediums, and elite drop larges. Make the NPC end reward sync up with quest difficulty, so no larges given out for running normal.

  13. #233
    Community Member gloopygloop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noinfo View Post
    There were certainly failure but once people developed stragegies it was more of the person leading the raid that controlled much of the success ratios.

    Oh and you might want to think about what very well geared meant for those who were capped at level 14 (abbot was broken so don't even think about the gear from there)
    We had
    Deathnips
    Cloudburst? and um...

    Banisher and Vorpals/Disrupters were more poweful back then I will admit however only vorpals worked in shroud and of course the mighty WOP reached its peak during those times.
    Mostly, I was thinking 100% fortification, Greater False Life, a +something Con item, Transmuters and similar gear. Just the basic stuff that you would expect from anyone who has been sitting at cap for a short while to have, but that you wouldn't expect from a first life character that doesn't have capped "big brothers" to pass twink loot down to him and that doesn't know where to go shopping for important gear.

    And if people had a 10-20% failure rate in the Shroud when it was "at-level", that matches my experience with U12 Shroud after the first week.


    Oh as far as resources goes, they were used particulary cure mod scrolls however pots were only needed in emergency situations and normally only in part 4 when it was going longer than expected. Part 5 was much easier to manage via pool running alternating scroll heals (cure mod) and no meta cure spells with your potency item (no 75% boost healing items)
    Part 5 was always fine once you got past part 4. But part 4 went longer than expected more often than most people are willing to remember. People certainly weren't chugging big numbers of mnemonic pots on every run, but if a healer went through 5 PUG Shrouds in a row without running out of spell points in part 4 because of poor DPS, then I think that healer would be pleasantly surprised.

    And really, is it that big of a problem that a new player with a first life undergeared level 17 character can't contribute as much in a Shroud as they would like to? Even if they pike their first Shroud, they'll be 18 or 19 by the time that their raid timer cools down. How long do people stay at level 17, anyway?

  14. #234
    Community Member Aganthor's Avatar
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    I think the new changes to the blades makes it a little more fun strategy wise for DPSer. Instead of just clicking auto-attack and stay there while the blades go down, you now have to time your retreat in order to stay alive.

    BUT, it would be more fun design wise that you could have a reflex save on the blades and scale it according to difficulty: 25-30 on normal; 30-35 on hard; 35-40 on elite (as an example).

    My two cents.
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  15. #235
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    Leave hard/elite as is... Drop blade damage by 33% on normal...

    Done...

    The change was a good one, it's teaching more players that coordination is a good thing, that working together is a good thing.

    While the following isn't jsut Shroud related it does happen in the Shroud as well as many of the other raids, so i think it's relevant to the conversation.

    BUT..... As I see it while many of the raids have been updated, and raids are a key part of the DDo experience. The ignored factor is the lag/lag like issue. Now of course we will get the usual 10 people come in and say. It's all the players fault IE: Bad connection, Outdated CPU, RAM, Graphics card, etc.... Bullocks, it happens too often in Shroud, DQ, E-Dragon, E-Chrono to just be related to player side issues.

    I would like to see soem real work put into the causes of the sometimes extreme lag/lag like/latency issues in the raids. I have my hunches about it such as when the party UI was updated, the way the clients of the various peopel in the raid group communicate was slowed down. It needs to be streamlined liek you did back around the time of the great TWF change. I remember you did do some work on it at that time. I also believe related to this that another cause are the many aura type effects, which goes back to client to client communications. And lastly, the issues surrounding the build-up of incoming damage as well as out going healing whne 1 player is DCing, which isn't a big problem in normal quests but many times has caused disaster within raid groups.

    These issues cause frustration for many people raiding, especially during the primetime playing hours of 7PM EST till 2AM EST. Which also points to server side issues, if not then why would the increased server populations affect such things?

    In the end raiding should be fun and the issues I've pointed to detracts fromt hat fun for many. Raids should be harder than the regualr questing, and more rewarding... But NOT due to the issues I've pointed out. This has been left on the back burner for far too long.....

  16. #236
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    Well, it's no longer a level 17 raid. If that's what you want, change back Normal. If you're okay with it being a level 18-20 only, with 17s only getting in if they send tells to the leader, and only if they prove they're vets on TRs, then keep it as it is. As a player with lots of capped toons, I enjoy the extra rewards. As a player that only has healers, I don't have to wait for groups to get healers. So I'm fine. The question is, as a dev, what is your goal for the raid? A beginning raid that teaches raid mechanics, like Chrono was supposed to do (but didn't, it's also only run by level 20s, and also never at level) or is it just another end game raid? And is it supposed to make people happy in PUGs, or do you think it's supposed to be like any other PUG where people can't just sit back and have fun?

    These are real, not rhetorical, questions.

  17. #237
    Community Member markusthelion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calebro View Post
    The problem with that line of reasoning is that the level ranges that the raid was designed for are now left behind.
    It's like the 500 point Disintegrate in Reaver, which no level 14 character can survive.
    Running these raids at level should be a challenge for a newbie. It's shouldn't spell certain doom for that newbie.
    That's what higher difficulties are for.
    /This.

    Well said, for the level of the content the blades are hitting too hard. I'm fine with hard and elite being more challenging but not on normal difficulty. The shroud is the starting ground for any new raider to actually start learning how to cooperate with a team and use his head. With the way things are now, one mishap (with a healing class mostly) can spell doom for the party on normal. There should be a little 'forgiveness' in that aspect on a normal difficulty setting. This builds confidence and makes those newer raiders a better player over time (or should), so that they can run harder content.

    my 2cp.

  18. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hafeal View Post
    In addition, as my last Shroud run demonstrated, it is easier for one twit to have 'fun' start wacking devils without listening to the group and possibly causing a wipe (as they did in my last run).
    And this is one of the reasons why it is so important to make Shroud non-trivial.

    For new players in the game, the leveling strategy tends to look a lot like one of the following

    1) 1 player, 1 cleric hireling
    2) 2 players, 2 cleric hirelings
    3) 3 players, 3 cleric hirelings

    New players run through quests, doing whatever they want, are healed through all their mistakes and never learn game mechanics or how to play content without being nannied.They reach Shroud, and simply believe they can continue what got them there. Too many of them don't listen and don't understand that raids require teamwork and strategy.

    In short, there's a game lesson they need to learn, and you can either pull cleric hirelings from the game or pick the spot where new players learn how to act as part of a team in endgame.

    If you revert Shroud normal to trivial, you simply push the problem into VoD and HoX. Yes, the joys of running through the SubT with someone who thinks he can run wherever he wants and hit anything that looks interesting.

    Is it really a surprise that most divine casters don't want to join PUGs and spend their time logged on as "anonymous"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hafeal View Post
    Truly, I am at a loss to understand why the change was made to fix "normal" Shroud when it wasn't nroken and was one of the most run, if not the most, quests in the game - something ALL caliber and style of players could enjoy together.
    As Jeets said when we rolled our first toons in the game: "Oy! Can you walk? Can you talk?"

    Its all that is really required to run the current Shroud normal on a level appropriate character.

  19. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by die View Post
    and this wont be very popular, but make harry fly around and jack people up not just stand there in one spot and take a beating .. maybe grab a barb by the throat and fly into the air and bite he's arm off .. that would be diffrent.. you get my point
    Does the barb get his arm back as part of a successful completion?

  20. #240
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gloopygloop View Post
    I would really like to know where this "it was easy and we always completed it with no resources (pots) used when it first came out" myth came from.
    Until it was learned, resources were used, and it took a while. But once it was understood, and people using correct weapons (harry beaters) zero resources were used back then at the lower level.

    Now, the normal group was 2-3 healers as well as 2-3 arcanes also.
    We did not have any PrEs save for... 1 tier of bard spellsinger, and I think rogue assassin? or was it TA? I forget. And I may even be remembering this wrong.
    There were no monks.
    There was no store.
    We did it on Elite as well. yes we use a bit of resources.

    Also our DPS was not as high as it was then again lag was different also, and if anything worse than it is now.

    And as yet, even back then we had all ranger runs, arcane runs, WF runs, etc. Some things just don't change.

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