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  1. #101
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    What are your thoughts on the overall difficulty of DDO? Sure, we offer difficulty choices, but do you find yourself in a postion where even Normal difficulty feels too much like hard?
    I still have fond memories of failing quests as a newbie on normal, even F2P ones.

    Now, I can't imagine failing on normal. Some is experience and some is simply gear.

    If so, do you associate this with a given level in the game (e.g. 10+) or do you think there is just too much inconsistency throughout?
    I think you need to approach the difficulty levels with the idea that "normal" should be appropriate for early players - first life, new players, etc. A vet who can equip their character with decent boat buffs and nice BTA gear should find a challenge in hard/elite content.

    What's the right balance of challenge vs success for YOU? Do you expect to never fail when playing Normal - or would that simply bore you?
    I would not expect a vet or geared player to fail on normal for content they know; too much metagaming. I would expect far less reward.

    I'm raising this subject for a few reasons. I think a lot of people expect that when it comes to an MMO, if you put time in you must get progress/reward out of it - and that failure is just plain bad. Spending 45 minutes into a quest only to fail can be very frustrating.
    What folks dread is not the wipe ... it's the wipe on the quest that takes 30 minutes to get everyone to (chains of flames) and happens at the last minute. Coyle sucks, but even he isn't that bad in that you can re-run the quest relatively quickly. eDQ wipes aren't horrible because, frankly, you can restart DQ pretty quickly.

    So failure is ok ... but if that failure carries with it a huge tax of other non-challenging time, that's kind of a pain. There's a reason folks flag VON5 and ADQ1 on casual - to speed through it.

    A wipe in Stealer of Souls is more painful not because the content is too tough and out of scale (honestly, I do love the fire room) but because if you do wipe, the decision to recall and reform isn't about the encounter in question ... it's about the unholy pain it is to get to Reaver's Refuge.

    Now I do like the Lordsmarch and Madness chains ... but one thing I don't like so much is that the end fight on Seigebreaker and In the Flesh are so far into the quest such that the incremental time lost is substantial. Truth be told, those "quests" aren't super hard even on elite ... the end fights are.

    You can do some things to offset that, like shunting people out to an area if everyone dies, etc. There's a shrine right there before each of those end fights. I understand flagging can be a pain, but imagine (if you will) that ADQ2 was really just a third queen fight tacked on the end of ADQ1.

    A really long quest with a shrine right before the end fight but a super hard end-fight isn't a challenging quest.

    Personally, I'd have broken both of those quests into two sections - and similar ones.

    I want to fail. I don't mind failing lots. What I don't want to do is fail in the last 5 minutes of something that takes 55 minutes to get to and isn't challenging at all. Break that up into shorter bursts. Shorter, harder quests with no rest shrines on elite/epic, etc. Make me fail, hard ... just don't eat too much of my time when I do.

    We have been accused (and perhaps there's truth to this) that we've been balancing the game for the uber-player. Are you finding this to be the case? It seems like a couple years ago the salient message from the community was 'enough with the easy button already!'

    Would love to know your thoughts on this. Feel free to reference specific quests.
    Ah well, if that were the case we wouldn't be here ;-)

    Normal really should be aimed at newer or casual players at that level. Experienced players shouldn't have trouble here.

    Hard should be geared towards experienced players with some gear. Still, that experienced player with all the boat buffs and absolute best crafted or BTA twink gear may coast by. Should be doable by less-geared but savvy players with a rock solid plan.

    Elite should be geared to be a significant threat or challenge for people sporting even the best gear. They'll need to metagame seriuosly, prepare, have solid plans and maybe really dedicated roles on top of the gear.


    Since treasure and XP are level-based, you really need to make these distinctions based on the level of the quest as well. There's no reason an elite level 12 quest should be a challenge to geared 20s ... and if the uber players want it to be a challenge and you make it so ... adjust the level too.


    And keep in mind, blanket immunities and huge piles of hit points are not challenging. Big blankets that essentially mean only direct damage works aren't fun - they minimize and reduce the options players can bring to bear.

    "Moar attrition" isn't a challenge either ... it's annoying. It isn't any harder, it's longer. The new mechanics to eVoN6 are a step in the right direction ... you didn't just make the encounter numbers bigger, you added additional mechanics. That's awesome. I'm still not sold on abbot. Most of that is a Mario event and I'm the worlds worst Mario player, so I tend to not like it. Too many groups still fail on the puzzles, still lag out on the tiles ... to just make the pile of HP bigger on top of that is kinda uninteresting. You're not challenging the uber players, you're challenging my calendar and free time.
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  2. #102

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    I just typed out a response to this and lost it because your forums don't keep people logged in over 10 minutes anymore (I got up to tuck daughter in in the middle of it so it wasn't really that long).

    I think there is a wide variety of challenging content in this game and enough to suit most peoples playstyle. As a more hardcore player I love some of the changes we have seen recently.

    I personally like that each level has more difficulty in it's content and that lev 10A content does not necessarily equal lev 10B content. The game has always had these discrepencies among same level content it provides measuring sticks of your character/player growth. Some could be fixed but honestly ask yourself do you want lots of developer time spent in making gianthold more like lordsmarch or vice versa?

    I like challenge upgrades but they have to be both incentivised and immersive.

    Incentivised means that there must be rewards that scale with difficulty. Some great examples are shroud and weapons shipment tangible easily recognized increases.

    Bad examples are raids that give higher percentage chance at drops amongst different difficulties. These are unpublished chances and most often they are not enough to see any remarkable difference from one raid to the next. Better to have a tangible visual extra chest with drop chance than the current system.

    Worse examples are challenging content that have no increase reward. GH Tor and SOS Sorjek fight are the best examples of this. Really high challenge fights on elite but no incentive whatsoever to run them (favor and bravery can be obtained without these fights).

    Overall my thoughts on challenge probably boil down to this. The game has often been in a run it once on elite for favor and now bravery and then just normal again for most content. I would like to see game design focus on making people want to run elite everytime if possible and normals left to those who cant run elite or not up for the challenge that day or similar.
    Ghallanda Rerolled
    LeLodar LeLothian LeLoki LeLoman LeLonia LeLog

  3. #103
    The Hatchery GeneralDiomedes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    That pattern causes several problems, including making the difficulty less consistent with older quests: the amount by which it increases on Elite is much more if the monsters are not only stronger, but more numerous and in better situations. Previously Elite dungeons had strong encounters, but they had the expectation that players had learned the mechanics on Normal first. Now Elite gets its own separate mechanics, breaking that principle (and denying non-Elite players the opportunity to interact with those mechanics at all)
    Ehh .. that's part of the charm of this game, actually.

  4. #104
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    This is Seph responding to me talking about how I think these encounters are some of the better ones in Epic 6-player content

    I kind of disagree here. The big thing these fights all have in common is that they have kiteable adds that, if left to their own devices, will wipe a party. That's a decent solution some of the time, but it seems like it is the default solution to too many fights in the game.

    As a caster in the Demon of Frenzied Blood encounter I kite a bunch of trash around the room and try to keep a DoT and Ice Storm up on the boss.
    As a caster in the Raiyum encounter...I kite a bunch of trash around the room and try to tag the boss with a Meteor Swarm when I can.
    As a caster in the final fight of VoN 2...I kite a bunch of trash around the room and try to tag the boss with some DoTs or something when I can.

    The DoFB encounter at least has the option of destroying the portals as an alternative to kiting, but the general idea is to distract the party caster from participating in the boss' destruction. And if you don't have an arcane caster in the party, the task falls to the party divine who replaces "try to DoT the boss" with "continue to heal the party." If you don't have a divine capable of that, you need someone with some decent ranged ability, or the party simply fails the encounter, and even a decent archer-specialized character is only mediocre in some of those encounters due to the slowness of archery, facing, limited space, and difficulty in healing both the party and someone else running around the room.
    A player that knows how to kite in DDO is simply too powerful, because not enough mobs have abilities that can harm a player that is running tight circles around them. This is an AI issue that IMHO is a high priority to fix.
    Those encounters I mentioned, however, can all be approached in multiple ways, especially the Hezrou in eITD.

    The Hezrou can be dealt with by:
    - A caster using persistant AoEs to aggro all of the fire reavers, then running large circles around the whole room or tight circles on one platform
    - A bard Fascinating the trash
    - The group coordinating to smash the portals
    - The group assigning 1-2 characters to smash the portals
    - Assigning 2 AoE DPS characters (Supreme Cleave barbarians, Sorcs, Wizards, Improved Precise Shot archers) to AoE down the trash
    - Multiple casters using Wail on cooldown to thin out trash numbers while focusing the rest of their efforts on the boss
    - A high DR character intimidating or otherwise aggroing the trash, shield blocking, and enduring it (might work with an AC tank too, I'll test it in about 7 million more XP)
    - (not sure if this still works but it did a while ago) Spamming Charm effects on all of the trash and ignoring it, just like soloists usually do in the west water elemental statue room.

    PUGs often use the first approach, not because it is easiest (IMO the second one is easiest), but because most casters have learned to do it this way.

    Raiyum can be approached by nuking down the Dread Hex Wraiths as well as by kiting them.

    VON2 again does support 'kill the adds' approaches, but again most arcanes kite because they've learned to do it.

  5. #105
    Community Member bbqzor's Avatar
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    I have tried to answer your questions in an itemized format. Unless noted otherwise, my responses reference playing the game at level 20 (be it raiding, epics, TRing, etc). Frankly, DDO is not too difficult nor lengthy relative to other MMOs, and anyone who hasnt at least gotten to 20 on a single character yet isn't really too vested in it. Once at 20, you are 'into' the game, and essentially have to choose a method of grind to participate it (be it running raid counters, TRing to level again with some equipment already handy, or start doing epic content).

    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    do you find yourself in a postion where even Normal difficulty feels too much like hard?
    Not really. Leveling up is rarely an issue except for a few specific traps/bosses/quests/etc, and a couple rough spots on the way is to be expected. At cap, there are few raids which are difficult on normal. Abbot might be the exception, but that stems more from a reliance on other players abilities and less from the game itself. The one exception would be the new Challenges, which scale horribly with the addition of more people. Soloing them is much easier than grouping them due to this scaling, and makes 'normal' difficulty very much inflated in a group.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    If so, do you associate this with a given level in the game (e.g. 10+) or do you think there is just too much inconsistency throughout?
    As mentioned before, just the scaling in challenges. The vast bulk of my playing (perhaps 20000 ingredients worth, more or less) has been at cr20-22, and its really not worth stepping into these things with more than 2-3 people unless you're trying to do the Kobold Island ones, or trying a specific gold star strategy where you simply need more hands. The mobs need to scale at a less punishing rate.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    What's the right balance of challenge vs success for YOU? Do you expect to never fail when playing Normal - or would that simply bore you?
    A learning curve is okay, walking in and immediately winning isn't too exciting or impressive. But once you've put in the time learning, success should be more or less guaranteed. I say this not because some element/chance of failure is bad, its okay having the oddball bad run. I say it because virtually everything in DDO has been balanced around requiring extensive grind to pay out. You need 1800 challenge parts, or 20 raids, or enough runs to force a seal to drop, etc. Because you have to go in there and redo it so many dozens of times over and over, its not really fun to have even a small number of those fail and be wasted time. If its a quest you have learned, and its on normal, failure shouldnt really be on the radar.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    I think a lot of people expect that when it comes to an MMO, if you put time in you must get progress/reward out of it - and that failure is just plain bad. Spending 45 minutes into a quest only to fail can be very frustrating.
    Yes, exactly. One of the things which makes MMOs attractive as a form of entertainment is that they do offer a generally linear relationship between effort in and reward out. This is contrary to real life where sometimes no matter how hard you work you fail, or dont get promoted, or what not. In real life, luck plays a huge part, and people have no control over that. In MMOs, while everyone can get a lucky drop obviously, the steady and reliable effort to reward ratio is what makes people feel spending their time playing them is worthwhile. They know that they can keep at it and get somewhere and not be disappointed. This is one reason why constantly going back and greatly changing old things grates on people, it puts stress on the effort-reward ratio people chose to put their time in on. When you start working on something (be it an epic item or what have you), generally people at the upper end know what theyre getting into, and have chosen to accept the price involved. Essentially, theyre choosing to pay x time for y reward. Constantly changing old things means sometimes people lose out on that, which makes spending time online a gamble. People can gamble how valuable their time is in real life, they dont need the game being untrustworthy as well. Nothing stings more than putting in a lot of work on something like a greensteel item, only to turn around and have it turned into a giant waste of time by some nominal change which wasnt really necessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    We have been accused (and perhaps there's truth to this) that we've been balancing the game for the uber-player. Are you finding this to be the case? It seems like a couple years ago the salient message from the community was 'enough with the easy button already!'
    Yes and no... this is a more open ended question. Rebalancing all the old raids (save titan, so far anyhow) around the 'uber player' wasn't really needed, or helpful. I know there are players who like the new versions better, and for some of the raids I am one of those players. But it didnt really help the game at all. See, the upper end might want more challenging things, great add more challenging things. But by changing the old things into those challenging things, all you really did was remove a potential stepping stone for newer players. Take reaver for example. Now hes harder, and he drops better loot. And honestly, I dont mind the harder raid since the loot is better, and it made it something Id consider running again. But it took away something lower level people could do, or start working on, or learn in. Now they have to jump right to a pretty difficult raid (to survive in if youre not in some decent gear, anyhow, since almost assuredly someone will pull the group through). But just dying and having someone else complete isnt that fun. Consider if there had just been a new raid added, with the boss having the new reavers stats, and the loot table having the new reavers loot. (You could call it epic reaver, or just imagine some other parallel event, it really doesnt matter for this example). If that had been added, instead of replacing/redoing old content, everyone wins. The people wanting to catch up or get on board at the old reaver station could do so, and the people looking for the next rung up could go try it. What did DDO really gain with the reaver revamp? I gained a reason to play it again... but Id rather have something new to look forward to than just a reason to go replay something Ive already done 100s of times another 100 times for an upgraded shiny. Gaining a reason to grind the same old thing even more isnt really something Id label a positive, in a lot of ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Would love to know your thoughts on this. Feel free to reference specific quests.
    I've given some above and hope they were helpful. In closing, Id like to mention the Abbot revamp since its just about the worst revamp I can think of. Some of the loot was nerfed, with even the new upgraded versions inferior to the old drops. Some of the loot was nerfed, only to have the upgrade get it back where it was. And to top it all off, the raid was made much more difficult to where now its basically only run on Hard. This effectively made the loot rarer (20% drop on hard vs 25% on elite). So what you have is a situation where the ability to grind out the raids for 20ths went down, the drops per raid went down, the quality of some of the rewards went down, and for some of the other rewards you now need 2 items to make one (since you need the item but now also a seal you didnt have to farm before). Not to mention the current gamble that your 20th list doesnt bug out. All in all, I am left wondering what the point was... it just made players lives a lot less fun and a lot more work, to basically wind up more or less in the same place they would have otherwise. Obviously not all of the upgrades there are bad (the staff, robe, and trinket all came out pretty well) so I can see some of the merits had this been done right. But frankly, it just wasnt, and Turbine hasnt ever mentioned they intend to take a look. I get wanting to be done with it to move on to more interesting projects, but right now its just kind of an eye sore, a reminder to farm everything early and often because its just going to be made worse later.

    Id also like to mention some good things, as there have been positive changes too. The change to bag weight mimicing bags of holding was long long looooong overdue. It has made playing the game much more enjoyable by removing headaches over maintenance tasks and making it easier to just play the game. Also, the desert scroll change was greatly needed. I know some people didnt like it, or lost a lot of trade investment, which wasnt good (going back to the whole, changing the value of time people have chosen to put in). But right now making an epic is like trying to get 4 named items, and the game does not really need that level of grind. Its a game which caters to people having multiple characters, and leveling those characters multiple times. But just having 'desert scroll', 'desert seal' and 'desert shard' (then the same for the other areas) would bring a lot of balance to epics. With an absence of 20th reward lists like raids have, trying to track down an epic bit can be a horrible amount of work, and few of the epic items offer any kind of in game advantage to match that work. The new Challenges remedy this well, but a system such as that doesnt seem to me as easily backwards compatible, nor would I want to promote more challenges (frankly theyre all timed which is hard on a social game where people have to use the bathroom at different times, or deal with kids, or afk a second for wives, etc... and theyre all very repetitive which makes the grind even more grindy, especially when the timed nature and fail conditions prevent goofing around or joking conversations and such, theres just too much of a need to perform and rush). Going to generic epic parts, as the desert scrolls are, is a good solution. Id even like to see adjustments made to eliminate the hand ins (if 100 kills for 1 scroll at 1% drop chance is too few with every scroll being useable, just adjust the global rate to 0.33% so its the same ratio as the turn ins now, but it gets rid of an annoying step, and cuts down on clutter in bags, and makes trading easier). Again, just some thoughts. Thanks for the chance to post them.

  6. #106
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    I feel that a lot of quests now do not fit with the levels they've been put at.

    I feel that certain quests scale way too much from Normal - Elite

    I feel that certain quests are far easier to solo than others Yet other quests are far easier in a group.

    I feel that slayer zones should NOT scale by party size - This makes zero sense as 90% of parties split up to do slayers anyway. If I'm in Vale of Twilight soloing with an LFM up and someone joins and steps into the instance the mobs HP, Damage and Saves are guaranteed to go thru the roof. This is the same in all slayers - Running round solo {with a hire of course} taking one or two hits to kill everything instantly goes to needing a minimum 3 hits every single time once a second person enters.

    My personal thoughts on the difficulty of certain quests

    The solo quests are all set at the wrong lvl - I'd change Miller's Debt and Home Sweet Sewer to lvl 1 and An Explosive Situation to lvl 2 BUT I'd up Arachnophobia to lvl 3 - It's by far the most difficult of the four solo quests.

    Shan-to-Kor - Sacred Helm scales pretty heavily to elite - My suggestion would be to move it to lvl 4 and rebalance normal and hard leaving elite as is.

    The Marketplace f2p quests - The Swiped Signet, Freshen the Air, Proof is in the Poison and Archer Pt could all benefit from a one level advance as Bravery Bonus is forcing people to do them earlier than before - Freshen the Air especially is incredibly hard on elite for it's level.

    The Chronoscope - Needs rebalancing a la Devil Assault - 6 / 12 / 18

    House D - Sorrowdusk Pt 1 and 2 could do with being upped to lvl 7 - Apart from this House D is fine as is.

    House Jorasco f2p quests - Mirra's Sleepless Nights and Dead Predators are a bit weak for lvl 6 quests - These could be dropped to lvl 5 with no real issues {It feels rather strange that the lowest lvl quest in House J is Delera's Pt 1.}.

    Delera's - Pt 1 needs to be moved to lvl 6 and rebalanced to bring it in line with the rest of the chain for Bravery.

    House Phiarlan f2p quests - I'd suggest toning down the search DC in Rest for the Restless on elite {It really is stupid high as is and many rogues / artis who could disable the trap with no problems thanks to thieves tools can't even find the box.

    Tangleroot - The first two quests in this chain are amongst the easiest lvl 3 quests BUT I'd suggest rebalancing them and moving them to lvl 4. I'd also suggest dropping the final two quests in the chain to lvl 6 as they don't really deserve lvl 7 status.

    Carnival - The Snitch {Pt 3} is far far easier than the rest of this chain - A Small Problem {Pt 1} especially scales to ridiculous extremes on elite - I'd suggest making the whole chain lvl 6 instead of lvl 5 and rebalancing The Snitch to the difficulty of the rest of the pack {maybe also take a look at the scaling of Small Problem}.

    Necropolis - Wow what can I say? Burning Heart needs to stop making people buy gold seal hirelings {It's not actually even that hard once you get past the four runes.
    - The entirety of Necro 2 is rendered ridiculously easy if you have a caster with Firewall or an arti with the turret in the party Yet is a monster to get through without one of these - It might be an idea to reduce the phasing abilities of shadows etc whilst giving them Fire, Acid or Cold Res 30 from all the casters in there {33% chance of each - A roll of 100 gives the mob all three}.
    -Necro 3 could stand to be moved up a level as it's pretty crowded where it is atm and it's not easy anyway.

    Orchard - I'm gonna hear screaming in a second I know BUT I definitely feel that there's too many LFMs going up for Rats and Caravan farming - It might be an idea to look at making the chance of gaining taps reliant on actually doing the slayer properly - I'd suggest a much smaller chance of gaining taps off the first 2 rares with bonuses to drops on subsequent rares in the instance.

    Threnal - Here we go - This whole pack needs removing and rebuilding from the ground up - I'd suggest:

    1. Make the slayer an actual slayer - 750 max
    2. Add favour totals for the side quests
    3. Remove all oozes and puddings from the quests
    4. Have a competition on the Character Build forums to build Coyle and Derward {Coyle's an Illusionist and Derward's an Artificer}
    5. Sort out the flagging mechanism.
    6. rebalance the quest levels from lvl 7 on Normal to lvl 9 on Normal.
    7. Add chests/xp at certain time intervals in Hold for Reinforcements {ala Devil Assault / Desert Caravan}.

    House Kundarak f2p quests - Taming the Flames has to get a special mention here - I'd really like to see this moved to lvl 10 and rebalanced with reference to the fact that shipbuffs are available.
    -Relic of a Sovereign Past could do with being dropped a level {replacing one of the four Necro 3 quests}.

    VoN - I'm sorry but Jungle of Khyber and Haywire Foundry are lvl 10 quests masquerading as lvl 9s - Move them up a level please
    -Vault of Night and Plane of Night could also do with being upped a level.

    Back to the Harbour - Invaders at one point was an endgame quest and it still reflects that - Unfortunately the rewards no longer reflect that in the main - I'd suggest moving it up 2 levels and taking a look at the rewards.

    The Restless Isles - Hiding in Plain Sight should in my opinion be rebalanced and dropped to level 9 {As it stands people aren't hitting the Isles themselves at the right level}
    -The Twilight Forge and The Titan Awakes could do with being upped to level 14 as too many groups are doing these with level 17-20 characters.

    Three Barrel Cove - This explorer zone is PERFECTION unfortunately the quests leave a lot to be desired - I'd suggest rebalancing Guard Duty for soloability {one hireling - No goldseals}, allowing the questgivers for Garl's Tomb and The Fire Caves to teleport characters to pt 2 of each once pt 1 is done. And dropping Scoundrel's Run to lvl 6 {It's not a lvl 7 quest}.

    Gianthold - Move Reaver's Fate to lvl 17 - May need rebalancing

    Vale of Twilight - Move Shroud to lvl 18 - It's already run mainly by capped toons {why have an instant 10% xp penalty for those not capped?}.

    SubT - This is NOT a lvl 16 instance - VoD and Hox are lvl 18 quests - Move the slayer to lvl 18 too please {btw Devil Battlefield's mobs aren't as hard as the ones in SubT and that's a lvl 19 instance} and allow hirelings in the slayer.
    -I'd also suggest moving VoD to lvl 19

    Epics - We need more - I'd suggest:

    1. Bring out epic unlock tokens for certain f2p quests {DDOStore of course}
    -Misery's Peak
    -Redwillow's Ruins
    -Gwylan's Stand
    -Stormcleave Outpost
    -Caverns of Korromar
    -Tempest Spine
    -Invaders
    -Mired in Kobolds
    2. Epicify Restless Isles and Threnal {once you've thouroughly rebuilt it of course}
    3. Delera's DOES NOT need epicing - Put an epic token for Voice in Threnal.

    There's plenty of quests I've missed hereI but I'd start with these.

    Oh and please, please, please make Kobolds a playable race...Yark!
    Last edited by FranOhmsford; 12-22-2011 at 12:22 AM.

  7. #107
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweez View Post
    Some random thoughts:

    • ...(other suggestions)...
    • Mob AC. Some mobs have AC that is completely out of whack - having to roll a crit to hit a mob isn't fun. There are a few older quests which are particularly guilty of this, mostly quests with vampires (which are already heavily skewed towards casters), but I remember having horrible to-hit issues in elite Fear Factory on a heavily geared third life melee toon (that even had fighter active PL clicky going) fighting the end-boss. He literally had more AC than a lot of epic mobs, which is just ridiculous.
      ... (other suggestions)...
    I for one like mob AC being all over the place. Just don't be afraid to have a low AC boss alongside a few high AC trash mobs (it's almost always the other way around).

    An encounter in an Epic dungeon where the boss has 55 AC and 100% Fortification, but at a certain point 72 AC 0 Fort trash spawns gives different types of melee builds different opportunities to shine. Monks are excellent DPS against the heavy fort 55 AC boss but lacklustre against 72 AC; a Barbarian might pull less DPS than the monk on the 55 AC boss, but when the trash spawns, they are the god (well, among melees) of killing it.

    Likewise, I'm fine with elite requiring players to use all the tools at their disposal - Destruction weapons, Sunder/Imp Sunder, etc - to hit certain opponents reliably. Normal, OTOH, should see players in poor gear for the level hit on a 10 if not lower.

  8. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    do you find yourself in a postion where even Normal difficulty feels too much like hard?
    Not really. But there are plenty of times where I feel like Elite difficulty feels too much like Epic difficulty.

    There are 3 types of issues that you guys have:
    1) Quests that suck due to game changes.
    2) Quests that suck due to poorly implemented mobs.
    3) Quests that suck and you’ve demonstrated the ability to do a better job, but you haven’t used that knowledge in the quests that suck.

    The first type of problem quests tend to come down to changing game mechanics and quests not being revised with these changes in mind. This problem tends to comes up in quests that were considered “Endgame” once upon a time.

    Examples:

    Vault of Night Part 1 - Tharask Arena: Technically this one also falls under “Poorly implemented mobs”. At one time the troll fight was put in game to give casters something to do other than “Buff the Melees”. Times have changed and casters no longer need melees in that quest. It’s time to tone the Ottos Irresistable Dance down to confirmed vorpals only.

    Vault of Night Part 3 - The Jungles of Khyber: Once again, casters now have plenty of play options, including avoiding grouping with melees. And, to add insult to injury, the Marut gets to bypass Grasp of the Earth Dragon *and* Blindness Immunity. Once again, it’s time to make this quest into something any 6 characters can do.

    Running With the Devils: Once upon a time melees had some neat options for weapons to use in there. Then there was a pointless nerf to Transmutating. (Which *should* have been a surgical strike to Mineral II.) Now, if you want to fight that named guy you better have crafted something. Seriously, you guys can’t see anything wrong with “You need this quest to craft but you need to craft stuff to play this quest”?

    Monastery of the Scorpion: Nothing about Normal or Hard can prepare you for the end “fight” on Elite. OMG, someone completed it on a sneaky guy. Boo effing hoo. Sneaky types have 3 quests in the game where they can shine, but don’t have to. You had to screw this up because?

    The second problem is more general. But, it turns good quests into bad quests.

    Examples:

    Phasing mobs (Shadow Crypts): I’m still waiting for Eladrin to explain to me exactly what the tactical advantage of “phasing into the floor” is. These creatures don’t regen. All it does is bring unnecessary attention to the fact that your graphics engine is perpetually out of synch with the rest of the game.

    Beholders (Acute Delerium, In the Flesh, Ghosts of Perdition): In many ways, you guys have a lot of trouble making a quest with a beholder into a fun quest. Your game engine has screwed up the anti-magic ray, enervation and the general spamminess of beholders. There are reasons why anti-magic is just a supression field in P&P. There are reasons why players have 2 defenses against level drain in P&P. (Touch AC and SR) You guys successfully borked these defenses in DDO and have yet to come up with a decent replacement. (Seriously, why does negative energy absorpbsion % not lower the # of neg levels give by negative energy spells?)

    Air Elementals (Piker’s Fate, Fleshmaker’s Lab, various): OK, make a save when they attack. That I could see. However, you guys turned it into make a save whenever their 3d model intersects mine. Then you gave the A.I. the ability to intersect my 3d model a dozen times a second. You want to make these mobs the right way? Give us a 2 second immunity each time we make a save.

    The third problem is probably the only one I like to talk about. It shows that you guys can fix the problem. You just need incentive.

    East Thernal Part 3 - Hold For Reinforcements: Compare this quest to “The Last Stand” or the climax of “Ritual Sacrifice”. The Last Stand is done right. Hold for Reinforcements, not so much. In the Last Stand you actually have a chance at keeping suicidal guy alive and it gives a much more appropriate XP reward. In Hold for reinforcements, Coyle is a one hit wonder and you spend 15 minutes for around 2,000XP. The one level difference between these quests does not justify either of the penalties we must face in Thernal.

    Cabal for One: The end fight in this quest makes me mad. Why? Well, it comes down to versimlatude. We have an armored divine caster with a unrealistic (from a metagaming standpoint.) 60+ AC. OK, where does this +6 Fullplate of Protection +6 with Dodge +4 drop in DDO? Cause it’s obviously not a named drop from the final chest. If you guys ever feel the need to revisit this fight: Look at the endfight of Frame Work. *That* is some nice work. Some swarming and prioritization of kills is much better than artifical stats.

    Update 11 Cannith Quests: Don’t get me wrong, I like these quests. Even on Elite. However, these quests should give epic tokens at the end.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    What's the right balance of challenge vs success for YOU?
    Continuing on the levelling PoV. In regards to every quest created after Eberron Unlimited. Why does every new mid-high level quest chain wuss out on the XP? You want people to buy these adventure packs, right? No one grinds the Xorian quests for XP. But, they will run the hell out of Litany of the Dead though. People actively make levelling plans that don’t involve Amrath. The only reason to run Cannith is for Boots of Propulsion or Cannith Favor. Most of these quests are a “Once and Done” quest. Why would you want to make quests like that?
    Things that if Turbine went all EXTREME PREJUDICE™ on, would actually make the game fun again.:
    • Giving us the racial PrE’s we were promised, before rolling out DDOStore™ Enhancement Trees.
    • One loot system to rule them all. (Including Cannith Crafting, and Named Loot.)
    • Fixing the Cannith Challenges so that they can be 6 starred without incredible luck or store bought items.
    • Adjusting Challenge XP so that they're worth running more than once.

  9. #109
    Community Member wetheril's Avatar
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    Just want to add that I agree completely with people who have said this game isn't so much targeted to uber-players as much as it is to the uber-connection, or uber-group. I consider myself to be decently geared and have a solid knowledge of the majority of the quests and raids in the game. I do not have as much time to play now as I did in the past due to real life issues, and sometimes I really need to grab a group quick just to get something done. I can't wait around for friends to get on, or sometimes I can't make it to a guild run. PUGs are just terrible now, and there needs to be something done so that raids are more PUG-friendly.

  10. #110
    Community Member umeannothing's Avatar
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    I think basically at this point in time, easing back on the old content, making it more new player friendly, content to gear up on, would be a good idea, more or less, leave old content where it is for now with the exception that if it has a level range on it, i.e. 12-15, 2-4, 17-20, make it doable for those level level ranges in a manner that encourages growth;new players to play it.

    Future content that gets released, I would suggest to make that end game player quality and difficulty. New content should be something that new players and old alike will want to work towards, making the game interesting by re-running old content relentlessly for whatever reason: TR's, uncomfortable with current end game so one rolls a new character, want to solo, want to short man content, whatever reason you can think of worked to tide the game by during dark times, and the times are not as dark as they once were. I would bet that old players that had a reason to buy future packs aimed at giving their power characters something to do would purchase the packs like wildfire....... Assuming the quality is good and has been gone through with a fine tooth comb to minimize issues with content upon release and may even get a few new/returning vip's.

    I still say that level 1 - 20 content should be considered pretty much finished, I think making it on par for the level ranges of the respective quest/raid assuming that a level 17-20 raid is going to be played by characters on casual/normal at level 17-18 (I know, no casual on them as yet) hard on 19-20 and elite on 20+ using basic non twinked new players that have not TR'd anything or gotten gear yet.

    but overall, I would say difficulty is ok. There are, as some have said, differences in one quest chain over another over that one over there all in the same level range that should be looked at, but overall, I feel difficulty is good.

    And please, when you are thinking of difficulty, do not forget to include solo/casual players. Many casual players (myself included) play solo just because we do not want to inconvenience a group if we have to go AFK repeatedly, as in my case, my 4 year old son I am watching during the day, often as I am playing, and then I have a wife and 2 other older kids in the evening that seriously hampers my being able to just group and run as often as I would prefer.

    I don't mind dying in quests, I mind not completing, as I said before, and still think getting rid of the 5 minute timer for reseting is a good idea, and add an option on the quest difficulty selection for reset this quest, with an auto reset when you enter a new dungeon, this would let a person that forgot to bind, gets lag booted, zone in/out DC'd, or whatever the chance to go back where they were to get a complete.

  11. #111
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hit_fido View Post
    Rather than looking at quest difficulty (casual, normal, hard, elite, and in some cases epic gives you plenty of opportunity to tune and re-tune to cater to the broadest possible spectrum of player skills and desires), I hope you consider another aspect of what can make DDO excessively difficult for some players.

    This game's ability to customize character builds is one of its biggest strengths but also one of the most potentially punitive mechanics facing a new player. This game (and many of the players in it) do not forgive "build mistakes". What is a new player who makes their way to the mid upper levels faced with when they're told taking Power Critical or Acrobatic or Improved Mental Toughness were big mistakes, or that their mix of classes is 'gimp', etc? It wont be altogether clear to many new players just how useless some of the feats are or how bad of an idea mixing certain classes is until they've invested some chunk of playtime - and then said investment looks like a big loss in light of the harsh reality of their options:

    - reroll: do you want new players to feel like they've wasted all that time?
    - pay for lesser/greater reincarnation: expensive.
    - pay for one-by-one feat swaps that may not even work given feat selection progressions: potentially expensive.

    'Expensive' is subjective, sure, but when you guys shifted the capability of players to swap feats for siberys shards by a couple magnitudes you essentially made real money the only option for repairing bad leveling decisions.

    Some ideas for reducing this hurdle:

    - revert siberys feat swap 'costs' to their previous levels (i.e. 1,000,000 shards for the flawless needed to feat swap at level 17 is nuts)
    - provide every character slot with a one-time usable Greater Heart of Wood +5. This one time use does not renew across True Reincarnations. This would basically function as a single use 'oops' button for, so to speak, un-gimping a character. Maybe tie this to a certain level or maybe a certain favor threshold, but not so high as to be a grind unto itself.
    - improve the feat swap and lesser/greater reincarnation interfaces to be more intuitive and forgiving. Consider a two or four hour timer after changes are made: within that window of time there is an 'undo' option, because the only thing worse than making critical mistakes building your character is compounding them because you didn't change out the right class at the right level or so on.
    One more suggestion: Improve the pre-generated builds (IMO you should get the 'power gamer' community to design these, and award in-game prizes as an incentive), and also add to the DDO store level-appropriate 'equipment packs' for each of them (at 6, 12 and 18), that contain OK introductory-level equipment.

    As an example, a level 12 Stalwart Defender's kit might cost 400 TP and include (all BtC):
    - +5 Mithril Full Plate
    - +5 Steel Tower Shield
    - +5 Dwarven Axe of Bleeding
    - +2 Metalline Dwarven Axe of Pure Good
    - +2 Cursespewing Returning Throwing Axe
    - +6 Con belt
    - +6 Str gloves
    - +6 Dex boots
    - Heavy Fortification ring
    - Greater False Life ring
    - Bracers of Dodge +2
    - Amulet of Resistance: Saves +4
    - Helmet of Natural Armor +3
    - Cloak of Protection +5
    - Trinket of Inspiration: XP gain +2%, does not stack with Voice of the Master or Threnal cloak.

    All of that is 'good stuff' without being uber. Veterans have far, far better, but it's a functional starting kit that will serve players well in at-level Hard dungeons, while not taking away the incentive to acquire more loot. Plus I think people would be more willing to spend real money on that than an individual +3 elemental burst weapon.

    As for your 'once ever free respec' suggestion - a '75% off the first Lesser Heart purchased per account' offer would work too.

  12. #112
    Community Member bbqzor's Avatar
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    Skimmed the thread, and wanted to highlight a few things I caught in this post which I feel are very well said and/or very pertinent. Props sirgog.


    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    The worst experiences of wiping come about in higher difficulty runs of VON6, LOB or tMA. If your group is powerful enough to consider running, say, hard LOB, you will not find the preraid area and initial LOB trash to be entertaining at all.
    This. Adding a lot of trash clearing prior, or in, raids added nothing to the game. Its not fun, its not challenging, it doesnt consume resources or drop loot, it just takes time. Not fun.

    It's my position that raids strongly require a Casual difficulty setting, even though that setting would not be designed for me at all. Casual difficulty is, at its heart, all about experiencing the storyline (and a lot of the game's best storylines revolve around raids) and seeing the sights of the game - experiences I don't think newer players should miss out upon.
    This makes a lot of sense. DDO has a segment of players much more into such an experience. I am not one of them, so would not have considered adding this, but I do know people both in game and real life which would be very happy with this kind of addition.

    Where I feel difficulty should be in raids:
    ...
    Epic: For new content, the difficulty that is designed to mercilessly wipe powergamers over and over, until they finally get it down. Server firsts should take a while. Example: LOB elite/epic, Shroud elite post U12. Existing pre-U11 epic raids are currently tuned closer to 'level 20 hard', but it's not worth changing them as too many people are part-way to getting items from them.
    in reference to the purple line: Again, as this mirrors one of my strongest thoughts about DDO, changing the current situation likely upsets the time people have currently invested. Solutions going forward are better than disruptions going backwards, unless its assured that people who wish can still access the old version. Prime example would be the pre-change Epic Chimeras Fang or the pre-change Enduring Conviction. I would happily craft/loot more of those if I could get the older ones, as apparently I used them differently than most people and the older versions are more appealing to me. The new ones result in wasted effort spent trying to get the old ones. A removal of appealing choices is almost never wise, consider provisions allowing picking from different versions of items in cases like these.

    Item drop rates vary a lot in DDO. Low drop rates do not in any way add difficulty to the game, they instead add grind - mindless repetition.
    This. Often what the devs call challenging, is in fact grind. Its not challenging to repeat something easy dozens of times. Nor is it rewarding to replace dozens of easy wins with one hard win, because it still takes dozens of hard wins to get anything. If the challenging wins paid off appreciably faster, this might change.

    IMO the design principle here should be: "Will this raid be fun on the 20th/50th completion?" If no, then drop rates should be high enough that players should have everything they are likely to want within 20/50 runs respectively.
    Yes. I suppose there may be some concern about people 'finishing' the content too fast if it took only 5 or 10 runs, instead of the currently typical 40-60, but in a game like DDO I feel they would just roll another character or TR again, and feel like they were getting more for their time than repeating the same thing a dozen more times. MA has a 5 run reward list and that hasnt affected its popularity much, nor have people moved on even with the weapons being tradeable... possible case in point.

    These are all, with one or two exceptions, too easy to be entertaining for the number of runs that are required to complete items. Not because of the quest designs, but because the spells Wail of the Banshee, Implosion, Circle of Death and Undeath to Death obliterate them, and then almost all bosses are just 'surround and beat down for 1 minute' fights.
    Two points. One, this again highlights how repetitive people feel the game is. Two, I disagree on changing those spells. Rather, Id like to see other solutions. Currently, I frequently run in a low/no caster epic group, relying on monks and a bard mostly. And it runs as fast as the caster centric ones generally speaking. Casters are easier to play in epics, and easier to make viable in epics. That doesnt mean theyre overpowered, but it does mean the whole epic category could use some tuning (if the mobs didnt have a billion attack, melee wouldnt be as difficult to run, and thats wholly independent of instant kill spells since casters rarely have appreciable ac... as one example).

    A lot of this is tied to class balance, as well. Give us a reason to take melees again. And if you see anyone successfully solo an Epic, that's an indication that either the quest is under-tuned, or their class or build is way out of whack.
    Finally, give mobs some way to tone down player kiting. If mobs spawn too fast to kill without kiting them, reduce the spawn rates.
    I respectfully disagree here. Sometimes I need to afk frequently which would annoy most groups, or dont have time to make a group and want to do something fast, or simply dont want to be sociable. For those times it is nice to have the option to solo some epic quests on some characters. I would hate to see every epic quest categorically force grouping. Many people enjoy soloing in MMOs, and as such it should be viable at all levels and stages of the game, save raiding which is traditionally a group effort in MMOs with rewards to match. Soloing raids should be likely fall under the OPs comments, but I feel epic quests should be something people can solo at some level to cater to all play styles, situations, moods, and desires within an MMO setting.
    Its great to see some good discussion here, and especially with so many people having similar feelings. I hope some good development can come from this thread and others like it. Cheers.

  13. #113
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    I have discussed this for years now ...

    New content (especially raids) should be extremely challenging (much much harder than they are released now) - beating them should take time, skill, and creativity, not fastest to organize flag and run day one. All the previous raids/quests should then regularly be made easier and have increased drop rates.

    1. I am perfectly happy having the newest coolest toy a year earlier, I don't need it to be a permanent advantage. This is in contrast to recent moves to increase (rather than decrease) the difficulty of old content.

    2. It is reasonable that we ran each raid 100s of times when they were first released. It was the newest, toughest (ish), thing with the best loot. It is not reasonable (I would go so far as to say impossible) to expect new players to run them that many times. The game is bigger, the raids are only level appropriate for a few levels (rather than capped), and the loot is a mix with a only few select items still really end-game useful.

    Example: Velah was an awesome experience when released and we spent months learning how to run it. New players deserve the same awesome experience but since they don't have months to learn it - make it easy and fun for them to win, enjoy, and loot.

    Who cares if we had to walk uphill, through the snow, both ways to get our loot, there is no reason new players need to go through the same process, let them ride, we are all busy walking up new hills anyway.
    Last edited by stockwizard5; 12-22-2011 at 12:58 AM.
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  14. #114
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    We've gone through some rebalancing of difficulty lately, and for the most part I think we are at a pretty reasonable place at this time.

    Of the recent changes, I think eVon6 and Shroud were exceptionally well done.

    Shroud has received a fair number of complaints, but I don't consider that a negative. Whether it be AFK vets or new players not used to following directions and working as a team, the Shroud changes served as a wake up call that was desperately needed. Complaints from people who needed to be nudged out of their complacency is a small price to pay.

    Raids that seem to be a bit overdone in terms of difficulty:

    Reaver's Fate elite: My level 20 cleric who has over 60 epic raid tokens has died in there. Really? That seems AMAZINGLY wrong.

    Abbot: As a player who really loves to play casters, I should be running this raid just based upon the loot it hands out. If it was merely annoying, I would be. Its just obnoxious. I'm sure there are players who like this raid, but I have never met one. The people I know won't even attempt elite after the latest changes. I don't know how to fix this raid, but a single point of failure = wipe doesn't seem reasonable. If this raid handed out loot needed by melee toons, I suspect this would have been fixed a long time ago.

  15. #115

    Default Difficulty

    I like the range of difficulty, that the game can play really easy or very challenging.

    I think that Normal and Hard are often not much different, but elite is clearly a big jump in difficulty. The XP rewards are fairly proportional.

    I think there are a good number of quests with inconsistent level evaluations where the quest is much harder or easier than others of its level. Sometimes the XP follows that, sometimes not. I think you should have quest XP be much more even based on level and expected length of time to complete and that is it.

    As it stands, some quests are bonanzas and others are busts.

    Trap difficulty is a bit out of whack. It starts out rather challenging to find and disarm traps in game and becomes almost trivial at high levels. This often distorts new players views of trapping and making a rogue.

    Overall I give DDO very strong marks on hitting a good spot on game difficulty. I can always find a challenge and rarely feel frustrated.

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  16. #116
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeLoric View Post
    I just typed out a response to this and lost it because your forums don't keep people logged in over 10 minutes anymore (I got up to tuck daughter in in the middle of it so it wasn't really that long)
    .http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...23&postcount=4

    Some could be fixed but honestly ask yourself do you want lots of developer time spent in making gianthold more like lordsmarch or vice versa?
    Actually, I'd prefer the devs to just change the level indicator to represent what level the quest actually is. Some quests would be moving up, some down. For one, we'd probably end up with a better distribution of quests through the leveling curve from such a change with hardly any dev work.

    Overall my thoughts on challenge probably boil down to this. The game has often been in a run it once on elite for favor and now bravery and then just normal again for most content. I would like to see game design focus on making people want to run elite everytime if possible and normals left to those who cant run elite or not up for the challenge that day or similar.
    I'd like to see the game organized such that skillful players (not necessarily vets) with solid (not great) gear for their level are incentivized to attempt Elite, but are likely to run Hard if they can't find a good group. Where newer, weaker, less geared players are going to run normal. And where vets are always going to be trying to run elite.

    I agree that the focus on running quests 3x on E, H, N is kind of a silly direction for the game to lead us...why should we be rewarded for tackling something we just finished on an easier difficulty? I'd propose that You would simply gain the hard first time bonus the second time you run something on elite, and the normal first time bonus the third time. For quests you run on hard first, you'd gain the normal first time bonus on your second run. If you then ran elite, you would get that first time bonus on that run, but no further first-time bonuses would be available.

    People would be encouraged to run E, E, E instead, or H, H, which is more reasonable.
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  17. #117
    Community Member Calebro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    I agree that the focus on running quests 3x on E, H, N is kind of a silly direction for the game to lead us...why should we be rewarded for tackling something we just finished on an easier difficulty? I'd propose that You would simply gain the hard first time bonus the second time you run something on elite, and the normal first time bonus the third time. For quests you run on hard first, you'd gain the normal first time bonus on your second run. If you then ran elite, you would get that first time bonus on that run, but no further first-time bonuses would be available.

    People would be encouraged to run E, E, E instead, or H, H, which is more reasonable.
    If we're going to discuss the first time bonuses.... why do you even get one for later runs? There should only be one "first time" bonus. If your XP report reads "you have completed this quest 1 time" then you shouldn't get a first time bonus at all, even if you run it on a higher difficulty than you did last time.
    That would remove the E, H, N chain of events, and possibly promote running different quests altogether, which was the point of the Bravery Bonus to begin with.
    .

  18. #118
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calebro View Post
    If we're going to discuss the first time bonuses.... why do you even get one for later runs? There should only be one "first time" bonus. If your XP report reads "you have completed this quest 1 time" then you shouldn't get a first time bonus at all, even if you run it on a higher difficulty than you did last time.
    That would remove the E, H, N chain of events, and possibly promote running different quests altogether, which was the point of the Bravery Bonus to begin with.
    True.
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  19. #119
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stockwizard5 View Post
    I have discussed this for years now ...

    New content (especially raids) should be extremely challenging (much much harder than they are released now) - beating them should take time, skill, and creativity, not fastest to organize flag and run day one. All the previous raids/quests should then regularly be made easier and have increased drop rates.

    1. I am perfectly happy having the newest coolest toy a year earlier, I don't need it to be a permanent advantage. This is in contrast to recent moves to increase (rather than decrease) the difficulty of old content.
    ....
    I quite like that approach. WoW does this to some extent - if you look at the Firelands raid (which was just obsoleted as the 'cutting edge' of endgame raiding), it was launched with two difficulties - Normal (two encounters close to new Elite Shroud part 4 in difficulty, one easier than that, maybe around Hard Shroud part 4, and four much harder ones), and Heroic (immensely harder, DDO has nothing to compare).
    Blizzard gave groups about 2 months to work on that initial difficulty, then dropped all mob stats by around 15-20% (which with the way WoW works is a huge nerf). Suddenly the easier three bosses plus one of the formerly hard ones were widely PUGgable on Normal, and guilds that had hit a brick wall after downing only one or two Heroic bosses were able to make progress on the next 3-4 of them.
    The final 'nerfs' are indirect: Gear released in later content makes players more powerful, and this lets them return to encounters they might not have beaten and get it down. You see this in DDO sometimes too, consider how much easier Tower of Despair became when your Horoth tank gained access to the Epic Gloves of the Claw, which comes from content that is easier than ToD.
    Interestingly, since then Blizzard have added their equivalent of a Casual difficulty to their new raid (where most of the raid is close to DDO's post-U12 part 4 Normal Shroud in difficulty) and it has been a smash hit.


    Quote Originally Posted by Calebro View Post
    If we're going to discuss the first time bonuses.... why do you even get one for later runs? There should only be one "first time" bonus. If your XP report reads "you have completed this quest 1 time" then you shouldn't get a first time bonus at all, even if you run it on a higher difficulty than you did last time.
    That would remove the E, H, N chain of events, and possibly promote running different quests altogether, which was the point of the Bravery Bonus to begin with.
    I do think that for someone that has beaten a quest on Hard, returning to it and beating it on Elite is somewhat of an accomplishment, however.

    XP requirements in this game are too high for me to endorse anything that increases the TR grind. If a change was made to dissuade E/N/H running, it should be accompanied by a revision of the XP curve on TRs (making the XP requirements a quadratic function of level rather than cubic).
    Last edited by sirgog; 12-22-2011 at 02:00 AM.

  20. #120
    Community Member Kaish's Avatar
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    Default Level Cap

    Game difficulty for many players now, if limited to running a TR into completionist crazyness.

    Running the game, when you are cap is kinda bad. All you can get is loot, and just that can make the game boring as well as anything else.

    We need to go beyond 20 somewhere in the next year.
    Go Prestige Class (that probably would make sens to finish the Prestige enhancement first... which have been neglected for years...)

    In my opinion, that would help people enjoy there high lvl toon more and would allow many to run.. let say Amrath on a higher difficulty level then Normal (I know, most people on the forum run Amrath on Epic (!) but the rest of us.. dont)

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