Page 10 of 67 FirstFirst ... 678910111213142060 ... LastLast
Results 181 to 200 of 1323
  1. #181
    Community Member aarant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    145

    Default off the top of my head

    Couldnt be bothered to read all the walls of text so just skimmed off the top of my head any 1 mention removing scaling in all its forms as well as the -10% xp from the new guy strolling through the trap of insta death, people would be far more likely to put up lfms and let just about any1 in.Also saw the blades from shroud mentioned skimming through yeah u need to add box's to disable or somthing thats a feeder raid that the newer players who cant solo amreth to get larges are trying to farm and it to top it off its completly unfair to melee toons ive already seen the shroud getting the chrono treatment

  2. #182
    Community Member Terebinthia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,101

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    What are your thoughts on the overall difficulty of DDO? Sure, we offer difficulty choices, but do you find yourself in a postion where even Normal difficulty feels too much like hard?

    If so, do you associate this with a given level in the game (e.g. 10+) or do you think there is just too much inconsistency throughout?

    What's the right balance of challenge vs success for YOU? Do you expect to never fail when playing Normal - or would that simply bore you?

    I'm raising this subject for a few reasons. I think a lot of people expect that when it comes to an MMO, if you put time in you must get progress/reward out of it - and that failure is just plain bad. Spending 45 minutes into a quest only to fail can be very frustrating.

    We have been accused (and perhaps there's truth to this) that we've been balancing the game for the uber-player. Are you finding this to be the case? It seems like a couple years ago the salient message from the community was 'enough with the easy button already!'

    Would love to know your thoughts on this. Feel free to reference specific quests.
    I think that the balance is reasonably good throughout. I've been running up 28 point builds with no twink gear whatsoever on my husband's FTP account, and had no major issues with elite completions in Harbour PUGs. Experience and quest knowledge play a huge part, far more than the character builds / access to airships IMO.

    I think what you did with the Harbinger of Madness and Lord of Eyes chains in terms of difficulty is pretty good - you can run through them fairly easily on normal difficulties, but In the Flesh is a major challenge at level. Those chains in particular seem to offer options for both the more casual players and the twinked out power gamers.

    I love the bravery bonus and have done a lot of running of elite quests at adjusted level with one or two of my primary running partners, often running henchies. These are challenging and fun. Occasionally we faceplant but always get a sense of achievement from completion. I would ask that XP rewards on the 17 - 20 quests be looked at - it's still better it appears to farm Reaver's Refuge than run some of the new content, and I would prefer that that not be so.

    Raidwise, I think you should be able to go into a normal raid and have a reasonable chance of completion excluding someone doing something incredibly stupid. I think increased rewards for harder difficulties are a good thing (the extra chests in Weapons Shipment, for example, although I've yet to see someone pull a perishing Bauble post changes to the quest).

    I've not really had a chance to look at the adjustments to epic raids - the lack in server population posted LFMs in my timezone post the adjustment to make things harder precluded that, and so I've not really got a sense of the adjustment down. I do think a decently geared PUG that works together should have a reasonable chance of completion, however. If epic content is only accessible to channel / guild groups that's not great for server dynamics IMO, and my concern is that you are tailoring to a vocal minority that play almost exclusively with channelmates, and that's not the environment most of us mere mortals are working with
    Terebinthia, Terebynthia, Tereana, Tereaina, Tereanna, Terebyte, Terechan, Terebinthis
    The Hand of the Black Tower, Khyber.
    Cupcakes welcomed.

  3. #183
    Community Member Calebro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    In a van down by the river
    Posts
    5,706

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by grodon9999 View Post
    Can we actually expect some dialogue on this or is this just something posted to troll out our ideas and make us think you are taking in our feedback?

    9 pages and no dev replies since the OP.
    Well, to be fair, the OP was posted right around the time that the work day would have been ending. And it's getting to right around the time that the following work day would be starting.
    These ten pages came fast.
    .

  4. #184
    Hero
    Knight of Movember
    2014 DDO Players Council
    Hafeal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    at a keyboard
    Posts
    5,906

    Thumbs up Great thread

    Sarisa -

    Well said, I particulalry agree with your assessment of raids.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarisa View Post
    My opinion is that raids need to be balanced around people AT level. Normal should be accessible to a full group of first life players with just basic gear (Heavy Fort, +4 to +6 stat items dependent on the raid's level, decent lootgen or common named weapons). Hard should be for twinked first lifers, or TR's, or at least those with enough metagaming experience. Elite should be difficult, but should NOT have some of the ridiculous changes that exist now.
    Keeping loot drops as they are on Normal gives the casual player a chance to experience the raid balanced against decision to 'grind' for their raid loot or try to 'pick up' their game and go for Hard, Elire or Epic - which all need to have extra opps for great gear for those players. Of course, the risk of failure, damage to equipment, and the use of consummables should scale to be significantly harder at those higher difficulties.

    If Hard, Elite (and Epic) are too easy - then players become bored. And mind you, each higher level of difficulty must have appropriate scaling because as they do succeed they are getting better loot which makes lower difficulties easier; and as has been said, it seems new quests are being planned on the better gear expereienced players have and not the gear new or casual players have, echoed by ungood:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    I swear, I must be missing something, I see all these posts about how:


    • Oh yah, that is easy,
    • It's just AFK&Autoattack
    • Anyone can kite that.
    • It's a Pike Fest

    and you know, I have done these raids, and I have no idea what these people are talking about. It is like, it seems as if we are playing the same game but not even close to the same worlds here.
    P.S. I have to say thumbs up to the forumites, I think this thread has been drama free and constructive. Kudos.
    Last edited by Hafeal; 12-22-2011 at 10:03 AM. Reason: added Sarisa's text
    The evolution of DDO: Stormreach to Eberron Unlimited to Dungeons & Dragons Online
    -1- -2- -3- -4- -5- -6- -7- -8- -9- years & still spawning kobolds
    Who are the devs anyway? DDO Peeps Tracker


  5. #185
    Hero Hellllboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Grand Rapids, MI
    Posts
    927

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    What are your thoughts on the overall difficulty of DDO? Sure, we offer difficulty choices, but do you find yourself in a postion where even Normal difficulty feels too much like hard?

    If so, do you associate this with a given level in the game (e.g. 10+) or do you think there is just too much inconsistency throughout?

    What's the right balance of challenge vs success for YOU? Do you expect to never fail when playing Normal - or would that simply bore you?

    I'm raising this subject for a few reasons. I think a lot of people expect that when it comes to an MMO, if you put time in you must get progress/reward out of it - and that failure is just plain bad. Spending 45 minutes into a quest only to fail can be very frustrating.

    We have been accused (and perhaps there's truth to this) that we've been balancing the game for the uber-player. Are you finding this to be the case? It seems like a couple years ago the salient message from the community was 'enough with the easy button already!'

    Would love to know your thoughts on this. Feel free to reference specific quests.
    There are a lot of casual players involved in this game that do not spend millions of hours getting the absolute best gear, and your endgame solution is simply not an option for them.

    It creates an environment that is based around MIN/MAX builds with every piece of gear to survive quests.

    Players can no longer build a character for the fun of doing something-for fear they will not be accepted into a raid unless their DC or HP are high enough.

    Its a little silly to see certain level raids (below 17) with some of the challanges involved-just because level 20 players breeze through it-at level players have a great deal of problem with them.

  6. #186
    Community Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    1,164

    Default

    MadFloyd,

    Thanks for doing this. It feels good to be asked. Answers below.

    Ink

    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    What are your thoughts on the overall difficulty of DDO? Sure, we offer difficulty choices, but do you find yourself in a postion where even Normal difficulty feels too much like hard?
    It is very hard to make a blanket statement here, but with a few exceptions (raids) I think normal is exceptionally easy. I cannot imagine failing a 6-man quest on normal difficulty prior to level 16 unless some of the following conditions apply:
    a) there is some atypical game mechanic involved, such as failure conditions
    b) the party is almost entirely new and is trying to rush
    c) the party has a couple of people that are just raising the dungeon scaling and are not actually participating
    d) the quest is being run by characters substantially under level

    Even then, I would think the chance of failure is somewhat low, <10%.

    After level 10, I think some quests such as VoN3, GH (mobs do high damage versus previous levels), vale quests (Running with the Devils thanks to the healing ghaels and their SR and good saves), Enter the Kobold (super easy then evasion spell-fest), and Amrath in general (much more difficult than other quests of similar level) have a higher chance of failure. I can't imagine a party of new players stepping into an Amrath quest and succeeding 1st time more than 10% of the time without spending tons of resources.


    If so, do you associate this with a given level in the game (e.g. 10+) or do you think there is just too much inconsistency throughout?
    I think it does ramp up, but prior to level 10 it's almost mind numbingly easy.

    What's the right balance of challenge vs success for YOU? Do you expect to never fail when playing Normal - or would that simply bore you?
    I think normal now is too easy, because I do not expect to fail even when speed rushing through the quest and not paying much attention. I think normal should be easy enough that an inexperienced (but careful!) group can complete 80%+, but that if you screw around you should get punished for it.

    I'm raising this subject for a few reasons. I think a lot of people expect that when it comes to an MMO, if you put time in you must get progress/reward out of it - and that failure is just plain bad. Spending 45 minutes into a quest only to fail can be very frustrating.
    Good point. I think you (Turbine) have addressed that somewhat by having chests throughout quests, by having optional experience earned earlier in the quest. However, it is definitely backloaded and based on succeeding, which I think is good. I think players that want front loaded rewards benefit from the wilderness areas.

    We have been accused (and perhaps there's truth to this) that we've been balancing the game for the uber-player. Are you finding this to be the case? It seems like a couple years ago the salient message from the community was 'enough with the easy button already!'
    At the higher levels, I think this is true, and I'm not sure it is bad. I personally would prefer a bigger difference in difficulty (and rewards) for the N-H-E settings, similar to the way LoB and MA are done. However, I do not have experience with these raids on anything other than normal.

    At the lower levels (<10) the game is strongly slanted towards the new player with almost no chance of failure.


    Would love to know your thoughts on this. Feel free to reference specific quests.

  7. #187
    Community Member Zaodon's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    1,308

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    What are your thoughts on the overall difficulty of DDO? Sure, we offer difficulty choices, but do you find yourself in a postion where even Normal difficulty feels too much like hard?
    Yes, absolutely, without a doubt, you've been "creeping" the difficulty of Normal up, and up, and up until Normal is just too hard for most people at high level.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    If so, do you associate this with a given level in the game (e.g. 10+) or do you think there is just too much inconsistency throughout?
    Its definitely high level content (14+) in which Normal starts to scale up disproportionately. It starts at 14, hits again at 16, and then 18+ is all pretty much insane. Again, talking about Normal difficulty here.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    What's the right balance of challenge vs success for YOU? Do you expect to never fail when playing Normal - or would that simply bore you?
    Here is how I, along with just about all my friends (ages 43 and over) feel about DDO, and Normal difficulty specifically:

    Normal difficulty should only be a challenge the first few times through a quest when it is new to you. Once you "learn" the quest, the ins, the outs, the tricks, the monsters, the traps, etc. then yes, it should be trivial and boring to run it on Normal. That is why there is Hard and Elite (and in some cases, Epic.) So long as there is Risk vs Reward (i.e. better rewards on Hard and Elite), then Normal SHOULD bore people so they have incentive to run Hard and Elite.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    We have been accused (and perhaps there's truth to this) that we've been balancing the game for the uber-player. Are you finding this to be the case? It seems like a couple years ago the salient message from the community was 'enough with the easy button already!'
    IMHO, you are 100% guilty of this. Period. No question in my mind.

    Please realize that DDO is not like other MMORPGs. I know you know this, but sometimes I think you forget. Its too easy to see the kinds of players in other MMOs, and then see a *few* of those types of players here, and think to yourself "gotta make it a challenge to get those players here in DDO". But, there are those of us who are old people, who are D&D fans primarily, who find it fun to get together in DDO and play D&D online with each other. We are not "mmorpg" hardcore players like you find in other games. We're just D&D players. Most of my friends would never in their life play an MMO. Ever. For them, DDO is a singular exception.

    It is SOOOO easy for you to fix this by simply making Normal, "Normal", and restricting the "hardcore ramping up of difficulty" for Hard, Elite and Epic. By making Normal, Normal, you are giving incentives for players to run the harder difficulties.

  8. #188

    Default

    Old Content vs. New Content

    As many have mentioned, there is a huge disparity between the difficulty of the original content in the game, and the difficulty of more recent quest packs, especially at lower levels. Sentinels Elite vs. Delera's Elite is a great example. Twinked vets can do the first at-level, and will absolutely crush the latter. Newbs with only the equipment they've cobbled together, on the other hand, won't be able to handle the former and will find a decent challenge in the latter.

    While I recognize the challenge in creating content that will be engaging for both newbs and vets alike, there's a difficulty system in place for that. If "New Normal" is the Normal in new content, and "Old Elite" is Elite in content that's been around a while: nerf New Normal to match old normal, and increase the difficulty of Old Elite to match New Elite. I, for one, would really enjoy a Waterworks Elite where all of the kobolds have twice their current hit points!!! (Please note: I'm not advocating for hit-point related difficulty increases in general, but doubling up Elite mobs in the original launch quests would still be kosher -- these guys fold like a card house when you look at 'em

    Rock-Paper-Scissors

    Beware mechanics that make things incredibly difficult for one particular class or build. Strengths and weaknesses are fine, but in some cases, they've gone much too far. A fine example of this is Pale Master light vulnerability. It's very off-putting to do many quests at level, but defer one-in-ten to run 7 levels over-level just because it has caster who use Searing Light! I'm fine with the vulnerability for thematic reasons, but it's tuned right now to "insta-kill" vulnerability, which just seems...weird. A 25%-50% multiplier would still be enough to make Pale Master careful around light damage, while removing the caprious "certain mobs can kill you instantly" factor with the current 100-200% implementation.

    See also: blanket immunities!

    Also note that I'm deliberately not arguing for the inverse -- things like "need a trapsmith for this raid", or "should be done with at least one arcane", especially for raids. Having a particular class in the party grease the skids is OK -- having a single party member have to play the "6th wheel" because they match up so poorly vs. a quest is not. I love Elite traps making people actually stop and pay attention! (Big tangent: for god's sake, reduce the time of the Search and Disable animations! Traps are almost always out of combat, and making the whole party tap their feet waiting for two 5-second animations sequences adds nothing to difficulty -- only to impatience!)

    Risk/Reward

    More chests on higher difficulties is grrrrreat. If it could be done with minimal effort, it would be a great idea to do a pass on all existing quests and add an extra chest at the end on Hard, and two extra on Elite, as copies of whatever the "boss chest" typically drops.

    Random Mechanics

    This is a tricky one. I'm really in favor of some randomness -- Part II of the Shroud, for example. Randomness adds real-time planning, and hence challenge and difficulty. However, random mechanics are only good when the possible outcomes are, "close to the same difficulty, just different tactics". They can go awry when bad rolls can radically affect the difficulty. Challenges are a recent extreme example of this -- nothing is quite as frustrating as getting an unlucky set of crests in Rushmoor.

    Difficulty through Geometry

    This manifests in several ways, but the best and most often-cited example of this is Coalescense Chamber. If this quest were laid out in a linear, flat manner, it would be fun! Making it difficult by negotiating a vertical, having to manage camera angles and weird physics reactions when you jump is bad. The DDO game engine isn't made for geometry challenges like this!

    The Specter of Lag

    Another problem that I'm glad I don't have to solve! Beware of ways to make things difficult that are *also* hyper-sensitive to lag! Until such time as lag monsters no longer haunt the game (projected for Update Never), mechanics that make things difficult and are prone to failure from a small lag-spike should be handled with extreme care! I recognize that there's only so much you can do, here -- metering damage, for example, to such a degree that a couple missed seconds were survivable would mean eliminating all challenge from the game. On the other hand, areas where a single small movement hiccup could cause a big failure should be avoided -- the tile puzzle in the Abbot, for example. Use extreme care when introducing challenge that's heavily dependent on your exact position!
    The Brotherhood of BYOH--Thelanis: Charged, WF Artificer; Venomshade, Half-Elf Monk; Poxs, Fist of an Angry God; Crash, Pale Monkster

  9. #189
    Community Member grodon9999's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    NJ/Ghallanda
    Posts
    9,752

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaodon View Post

    Please realize that DDO is not like other MMORPGs. I know you know this, but sometimes I think you forget. Its too easy to see the kinds of players in other MMOs, and then see a *few* of those types of players here, and think to yourself "gotta make it a challenge to get those players here in DDO". But, there are those of us who are old people, who are D&D fans primarily, who find it fun to get together in DDO and play D&D online with each other. We are not "mmorpg" hardcore players like you find in other games. We're just D&D players. Most of my friends would never in their life play an MMO. Ever. For them, DDO is a singular exception.

    I play this game because it's close to D&D (not the D&D I played 20 years ago but close enough). I've never cared about any other MMO nor will I. Every "MMO" thing in DDO is what makes it stupid.

    If this wasn't D&D many of us would never have bothered.

  10. #190
    Community Member ferd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    4,290

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by grodon9999 View Post
    9 pages and no dev replies since the OP.
    Dude! It's going to take another entire team just to read the massive walls of text we posted.


    Glad to see everyone focused on what they are posting, and not what others are. refreshing.




  11. #191

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by grodon9999 View Post
    Can we actually expect some dialogue on this or is this just something posted to troll out our ideas and make us think you are taking in our feedback?

    9 pages and no dev replies since the OP.
    I would not expect to get a full dialog on this, but I fully expect that the devs are reading our responses and will use them to help adjust the direction of the game going forward. Some of the better ideas may even get used.

    Keep in mind that it has not been very long since the thread was started, and you should NOT expect the true development team(the ones who bring us new content) to be posting on here all night. It is only 10:20am here on the East coast, so with a 8am-5pm work day, there has not been a lot of time to read through the content, pick out the better thoughts, and try to find a pattern.

  12. #192

    Default

    I really appreciate this topic. Thanks for conversing about it with us Madfloyd.

    I think a strength of this game is that there are 3 or 4 difficulty settings for every quest. This allows the player to have a strong hand in just how much of a challenge they feel like facing from a given adventure. Because of that though, I feel like it is a mistake to balance the normal setting against highly geared, multiple epic item characters - which does seem to be the way the design team has been handling things.

    Now I know your sig says "no challenge, no fun", and that is a perfectly fair and reasonable view to have. But I feel like this needs to be balanced by those players (including myself) who enjoy building extraordinarily powerful characters and dominating gameplay, and see the fruits of their strategic character building/gearing as the most rewarding aspect of their gameplay.

    It's my opinion that if you run a well built, all epic item 750 hp, 90 AC, all saves 36+, 40 str dual-wielding melee through just about any quest on normal, that character should be able to complete that content without being scathed. But being that it is only the normal setting, the chance for rewards shouldn't be terribly high. This gives the power players/characters incentive to run elite or epic settings for a better chance at getting the loot they are after, while placing such power characters in a difficulty setting more appropriate to challenge them in.

    Regarding raids specifically:

    Abbot: Lower his hp pretty significantly on hard/elite, and drop the evasion. Up the drop rate of loot on all settings, it's so disheartening to run this raid just to get skunked which happens so often.

    Titan: Massive boost to loot drop rate across the board. This quest skunks you even more often than Abbot, which is down right miraculous. This raid is innovative and fun, but never gets ran because we all know it's a 45 min time sink from which no loot will come.

    Shroud: Either lower the damage of the blades, or get rid of their rediculous tracking/clinging tendencies. Only one change is needed.

    Reaver: Rebalancing a level 14 raid to be more challenging to level 20 characters is just silly. Taking a 500 damage hit at level 14 is rather absolute.

    Lord of Blades: This raid is fun, but the enemies in there even on normal are in serious need of an attack bonus reduction. 90 AC getting torn up by even the trash mobs is a bit rediculous. Just how much higher do you think is appropriate in order to avoid the majority of melee damage in there? Also, specifically on the epic setting, no shrine? Really? C'mon guys

    Master Artificer: I don't find this raid very enjoyable. Chasing enemies around and kiting can be a rewarding experience if you are an arcane archer or something, but for the 11 other people in your group it beomes very tedius very quickly.

    E-chrono, E-dragon, E-dragon, ToD, VoD, Hound are all fine as they are at the moment under the current overall system balance.

    Edited to include Titan.
    Last edited by Lormyr; 12-22-2011 at 10:37 AM.

  13. #193
    Community Member grodon9999's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    NJ/Ghallanda
    Posts
    9,752

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lormyr View Post

    Abbot: Lower his hp pretty significantly on hard/elite, and drop the evasion. Up the drop rate of loot on all settings, it's so disheartening to run this raid just to get skunked which happens so often.

    Shroud: Either lower the damage of the blades, or get rid of their rediculous tracking/clinging tendencies. Only one change is needed.

    Reaver: Rebalancing a level 14 raid to be more challenging to level 20 characters is just silly. Taking a 500 damage hit at level 14 is rather absolute.

    Lord of Blades: This raid is fun, but the enemies in there even on normal are in serious need of an attack bonus reduction. 90 AC getting torn up by even the trash mobs is a bit rediculous. Just how much higher do you think is appropriate in order to avoid the majority of melee damage in there?

    Master Artificer: I don't find this raid very enjoyable. Chasing enemies around and kiting can be a rewarding experience if you are an arcane archer or something, but for the 11 other people in your group it beomes very tedius very quickly.

    E-chrono, E-dragon, E-dragon, ToD, VoD, Hound are all fine as they are at the moment under the current overall system balance.

    What he said.

  14. #194
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    2,670

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    What are your thoughts on the overall difficulty of DDO? Sure, we offer difficulty choices, but do you find yourself in a postion where even Normal difficulty feels too much like hard?
    Not at all. The problem with making the game too easy is seen often with newer players reaching endgame. When i started playing this game, you were destined to fail in a quest without preparation. It required planning, modification, or in some cases reroll to obtain the necessary scores to defeat dc's in content. It required learning how to conserve sp on casting classes and balance spell use to not fail a task. The majority of this has been taken away at low levels. Many players step into mid level and up quests completely unprepared for the jump in difficulty. I used to look at the harbor as a training ground. There were many of what I termed 'stop checks' to help determine if a build idea would be viable later in the game. Nowadays I run through most of the harbor and marketplace quests solo. It's far easier than trying to explain to newer players the need to invest into a skillset for their character. They don't understand because there is virtually nothing left to actually challenge them. End result being lfm's full of toons at peak times with members lacking fortification/skillset/appropriate gear for the task at hand. It widens the gap imo between different types of players in this game. Not talking raid gear either. Rogues without search disable items. Arcanes with unworkable dc's. Melees without weapons to handle dr or do any damage to what they are swinging at, etc... Learning curve replaced by easy button is not conducive to good grouping experiences.

    If so, do you associate this with a given level in the game (e.g. 10+) or do you think there is just too much inconsistency throughout?
    I think that the glaring variance in difficulty between different quest chains should be addressed. What works in gianthold/desert will result in quick death in newer content like madness chain or invasion on stormreach. It would be good to have them be more consistent.

    What's the right balance of challenge vs success for YOU? Do you expect to never fail when playing Normal - or would that simply bore you?
    That is a tough question. I expect to fail if unprepared. I expect to fail if I make too many mistakes. This is true regardless of difficulty.

    I'm raising this subject for a few reasons. I think a lot of people expect that when it comes to an MMO, if you put time in you must get progress/reward out of it - and that failure is just plain bad. Spending 45 minutes into a quest only to fail can be very frustrating.
    From my vantage point I can say that there would be much less failure if newer players had more indicators of what works when the kobolds you are facing now graduate to barbazu. I don't think failure is bad. Failure is necessary to learn.

    We have been accused (and perhaps there's truth to this) that we've been balancing the game for the uber-player. Are you finding this to be the case? It seems like a couple years ago the salient message from the community was 'enough with the easy button already!'

    Would love to know your thoughts on this. Feel free to reference specific quests.
    Omg yes. But in endgame, not the harbor.

    Update 11 caused me to delete most of my divines. Out of 8, I kept two. Putting the onus of success or failure squarely onto the shoulders of divine casters in the way you guys did was difficult to stomach.

    Raid bosses hitting harder and having *some* increase in hp/fort is good. When the increase becomes multiplicative it's rather egregious. We are looking at some substantial changes that are live now. Melee bosses that are best handled by shield blocking/self healing casting classes. A lich that with an outrageous hp/evasion buff makes arcanes unwelcome in a raid with loot designed for them etc...

    My opinion is that the more you listen to the players who farmed out every piece of gear available on easier versions or raids - the more you enable segregation amongst the player base. Many of them complain a lot on the forums because they have everything and nothing better to do while waiting for new content. The changes instituted to provide challenge to them have alienated players who need the same gear from running content that will improve their effectiveness. Yet the same players who have everything gearwise (and brag about it endlessly), still complain daily on the forums. The rest of us are locked out of running content that requires grouping. This because the folks with everything can still brute force easy button it. And the rest don't stand much of a chance of getting a completion.
    Khyber: Evandus, Halfdeadd, Licoricewhip, Sawyn, Elkabongg, Brothanumsi, Soulbro, Cromix.
    And an army of gimp experiments!

  15. #195
    Community Member Meetch1972's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    The land down under.
    Posts
    1,033

    Default Tune predictability

    Difficulty for me comes from being unaware of what's around the next corner. Unfortunately with some quests as scripted as they are, many know exactly when to chug this resist pot, cast that buff or run along the wall.

    On normal, this is probably fine. A first timer will still have a lot of fun, and if they carry a stack of resist pots they can backpedal and chug one before heading back toward the spray, or find another way to deal with the problem. With just starter gear and what I'm picking up from chests, I find the low level quests suitably dangerous.

    Random encounters are the first danger factor. In say Irestone Inlet, if I push ahead too fast then I am taking risks - but slowing down a bit gives say an FVS' echoes of power a chance to charge up for some cures before the next bunch of mobs if I've already burnt all through my mana. I can control that with the pace I use, but add to that the roaming mobs and I find there is a reasonable seasoning of danger at level for a first-timer. The spot/listen skill should sometimes be the earliest indicator of a mob turning up where you're simply not expecting it, and I only really see this in some wilderness areas.

    The other thing for me content-wise is traps. Randomised locations and randomised boxes in many areas just adds to that uncertainty, but mixing them up is extremely rare. Add to that, on normal the traps still aren't very dangerous and only really a first-timer has enough respect for traps to consider investing in spot as well as search. Because some things never change, it's very common for the anything-but-rogue to be found bouncing up and down in front of the hidden control box. On the second life, second toon, or second time around when farming xp, 99% of the traps encountered are anticipated and worked around. But if say, the spikes came out of the floor in a different pattern, or they rippled along faster than the barb zerging through them to catch 'em multiple times, then maybe folks would think twice, or trigger the trap as safely as they can to figure out how it's supposed to be timed *this time around*.

    What makes quests too easy?
    • Above level buffs. I should not be able to get resists greater than 10 at level 1!

    • Familiarity. Quests that are so scripted that one might be able to linearly script a toon as a bot to zerg it.

    • Gear power creep. It's very hard to dial back power on so-called named items which everyone has. There are also no sinks for this stuff - the hardest part is figuring out which of the 150 BtA/BtC items in the bank to vendor/trash to make room for a newer, slightly shinier artifact in a coming life.

    • TRs may not really be that much powerful than non-TRs, but at the lower levels that 1 point or minor boost to something does seem to make a lot of difference.


    What makes quests too hard?
    • Reliance on ship buffs and what happens when they're gone. There's a lot of players who get the full suite of buffs from a L80+ ship in the mid levels who don't have any reason to play smart. There are more skilled players who can grab them and solo a raid on normal, and others who might add ship buffs then solo elite. I'm seeing more and more reliance on them, and must admit that I'm more inclined to take them myself when a year ago it was no issue managing without.

    • Haves and Have-nots. I know a founder who gets on 10-20 hours a week with a guild of like-minded/resourced individuals will play more efficiently and acquire more gear than me who gets on maybe 10 hours and runs with a small guild so ends up PUGging most content if I can't solo it. It's a problem for which I know no solution...

    • Pot/DDO item dependency. Fine for those who can afford them, or are geared to avoid it (see previous point). But those who cannot afford do tend to be left behind when there's a 500k hp boss to beat down and the PUG is full of toons still to be geared. A 500k beatdown is not fun - it's just a resource drain. Make it 100k and give the boss some way of inflicting a very small fort bypass chance perhaps. Make there be a slim chance that a well geared main tank can be 2-shotted by the boss at least on elite, maybe even on hard, but let the boss be squishier to compensate.


    Anyway that's all I got for now.
    Last edited by Meetch1972; 12-22-2011 at 10:42 AM. Reason: Added last bullet point.
    Goe ahed... korekt mah spelin'.

  16. #196
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    3,137

    Default

    [Since I have played since 2006 my thoughts are mainly for making the game more accessible for new players]

    The quest difficulty at each given level varies quite much. This might not be a problem for experienced players who know what to expect, but for new players it must be frustrating to run one level 11 quest fine and then get trashed at the next level 11 one. Personally I kind of like that it is this way, because it builds atmosphere to have some "notorious" quests around, but for new players I think it can be confusing. (There is a warning in the quest entrance box, but I don't think people notice that.)

    Unfortunately, there are also many cases where the difficulty and time required to run the quest does not reflect at all in the rewards. An example is the Restless Isles quest. They are hard to reach, long, sometimes confusing (especially Slavers of the Shrieking Mines), quite difficult for new players at level, and give very low XP. If you have quests at the same level that vary a lot in difficulty and length, the rewards should always reflect that.

    I also believe there should always be some easier way to continue the quest after a wipe than releasing and run back again. Now if you wipe, the party often dissolves and people leave frustrated - the price and time for restarting after a wipe is a little too high. Ways to achieve this could be a question if you want to teleport your soul stone to the closest shrine when you die. This could be an option on Normal and Hard only, or maybe only on Normal. And if there was an easier way to recover after a wipe, quests could instead be made harder.

    Another problem is that quests and raids are seldom tiered enough. There should be some sort of accomplishment and reward even if you don't make it the whole way. The Shroud is great in this, giving XP and rewards for each of its five parts.

    Many quests are very schizophrenic in their internal difficulty, where the quest itself can be quite easy and then you reach a boss fight that is much harder than the rest of the quest. That can be disheartening and feel unfair, especially if you were doing fine in the quest until the end. Examples are Enter the Kobold, In the Flesh, A New Invasion and Stealer of Souls, all especially on Elite difficulty. Make the whole quest as hard, or make the end fight more in line with the rest.

    Lastly I would also like to see Casual difficulty for the raids. The Casual raid difficulty should not include any raid loot whatsoever, not count for your 20 completion rewards, but maybe have a shorter raid timer. It should be included mainly for casual players that want to experience all the story lines, and for new players that want to check a raid out and/or learn it under easier circumstances. I think this would lower the entrance bar to the raiding end game quite much and in the end benefit the "real" raiding community, while also providing a more complete gaming experience for the casual crowd.

    Parting words - Just piling on the Fortification and Hitpoints for bosses only makes the game more boring, not harder, and is also very unfair since it affects casters much less than other characters (for example rogues - sneak attacks).

    PS. And yeah. Put in a timer on Mnemonic Potions. Please.
    Last edited by Razcar; 12-22-2011 at 10:53 AM. Reason: spelling
    Various hedge-wizards and halfwits, please see MyDDO for all your squelching needs
    Lyrandar 2006 - Devourer 2007 - Thelanis 2009 - Ghallanda 2010

  17. #197
    Community Member Cyr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    7,571

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    What are your thoughts on the overall difficulty of DDO? Sure, we offer difficulty choices, but do you find yourself in a postion where even Normal difficulty feels too much like hard?

    If so, do you associate this with a given level in the game (e.g. 10+) or do you think there is just too much inconsistency throughout?

    What's the right balance of challenge vs success for YOU? Do you expect to never fail when playing Normal - or would that simply bore you?

    I'm raising this subject for a few reasons. I think a lot of people expect that when it comes to an MMO, if you put time in you must get progress/reward out of it - and that failure is just plain bad. Spending 45 minutes into a quest only to fail can be very frustrating.

    We have been accused (and perhaps there's truth to this) that we've been balancing the game for the uber-player. Are you finding this to be the case? It seems like a couple years ago the salient message from the community was 'enough with the easy button already!'

    Would love to know your thoughts on this. Feel free to reference specific quests.
    I have posted on this subject in length before so let me see if I can sum up my thoughts...

    There are a few things here. The most important being that viewing the game as too hard or too easy is simplistic and not the source of the real complaints that you get about difficulty.

    The real issues are...

    • Content is not consistently difficult for it's level or difficulty setting. It is an enormous mistake to have difficulty differences between equal level and equal difficulty setting content. It filters people into easier content and when they hit one of those hard quests it feels like they hit a wall.
    • Jumps in content difficulty based upon difficulty setting is random and sometimes just plain badly designed for it's level. Into the Flesh on elite is one of the hallmarks of this bad design. It is dramatically harder then alot of other content on elite of it's level range. This was done to cater specifically to players who were annoyed at the easy mode high level quests in IQ and DD that were produced to cater to the opposite side of the player base...both being extremes that did not understand nor care that difficulty level needs to scale upwards as you get higher in level and be consistent so that players feel that they are both being consistently challenged, but not suddenly hitting a brick wall. There are lots of easymode elite ones that I could point out, but I do not really think I need to do that as they are the same issue as the too hard for it's level elites.
    • Reworking of old favorite quests to make them 'fresh'. Lots of wasted dev time. People like those quests or they would not be favorites. Shroud was the most successful raid made. The only things which should have been touched were the real issues in it having to do with no incentives to run higher difficulties and not monkeying with mechanics in any way shape or form. Another problem with this approach is that it recently (note recently because prior to that it could have been the polar opposite) catered to the same element that thought that Into the Flesh elite was awesome...because they do not actually understand how critically important it is to have content balanced for it's level NOT for level cap.
    • Dungeon Scaling. This was the worst idea in DDO's history. It made in many places it better to solo then to bring a group which is the opposite of what MMOs are all about and hurts the main sticking point for having people stay...strong connections to the community and other players. It also had a crippling effect on challenge scaling. By making content easier (which is it's direct result not the intended, but impossible to actually achieve goal of making the content equally challenging in a group or solo) it lead to lots of players not having the same scaling challenge that helps prepare them for the harder challenges later in the game (which have scaling removed...). This then makes the wall when they hit it even higher and more frustrating for them. There is also the critical issue that it never worked right and in theory was an idealistic dream that was impossible to implement...so instead of having that equally challenging in a group or solo which could allow the dungeon to be balanced properly for it's level and difficulty rating...instead you got a whole bunch of different challenge levels based upon the group size and composition. Dungeon scaling needs to be removed if you are serious about addressing challenge in the game. Without it's removal it will be impossible to ever balance all the content for it's level and difficulty rating in a comprehensive fashion.
    • Lag is often the most challenging part of quests and when quest design makes it even more dependant on lag then you have the recipe for annoyance. Instant wipes in raids when someone DC's is a HUGE issue. It killed my enjoyment of raids after too many occurances. Blades in the shroud and abbot in general is another example of design which highlights the issues with lag in the game...shroud blades and the abbot are dramatically easier with less lag and with heavy lag can become incredibly difficult to overcome.
    • Incentives need to truly scale dramatically based upon difficulty level. That is a real issue that the developers have finally started to pay attention to. The reward/time ratio has to be MUCH higher each difficulty level you go up in a quest/raid. A flat scale does not work (remember harder difficulties take longer to complete in almost all cases). Again the work done so far is encouraging, but much more can be done and should be done.
    • Epics are the ultimate random developer desire of the moment. It really is frustrating to have a quest change numerous times (through specific or universal changes) in a year. Even more so when it yo-yo's around in difficulty so much that the only conclusion one can draw is that a random dice roller is being used each update to determine it's difficulty. Knock it off. Pick a difficulty for each dungeon and stick with it already.
    • Mana pots (particularly being available in the store) completely distort endgame play. You can power through stuff you would have failed and people do...sometimes alot.
    • The spell pass...well that is class balance partly...but it also created a huge power jump for parties in general (particularly all caster parties!). Casters were critical parts of parties before the spell pass. Apparently people were upset that the average number of casters wanted for content was the same as the number of caster classes compared to the total number of classes. It was a mistake to take those complaints seriously unless the developers actually think that some classes should be more desirable then others...if so tell the players so we know to delete our melee non-tanks now.
    • Unequal difficulty throughout the dungeon. This is a huge one. It's not a huge deal to wipe at the beginning of a dungeon, realize it is too much for the party, and go in on a lower difficulty. It is much more annoying to fairly easily run 40 minutes of a quest and then hit an end fight that is leaps and bounds tougher then the rest of the dungeon.
    Some suggestions that may not have been apparent from the above...

    • Pick a desired success rate for normal/hard/elite based upon certain party criteria which gets higher the higher the difficulty setting and scale challenges of the content to that. My concern is less the particular rate decided on, but more that it is consistent throughout the game. It is desirable to have this success rate scale downwards as you increase in level. At no point in time should higher level characters be considered when balancing. They should have much higher success ratios in lower level dungeons.
      • My personal example is...normal at level party (always full party), balanced enough to have heals and respectable dps, average non-rare gear has a 80% success rate. This would equate to a near 99% sucess rate for well geared for the level....it's normal after all. Note, the rates given are for mid-level play to endgame play with better rates for lower level parties (balanced by the fact that lower level parties tend to be less skilled).
      • Hard at level party, balanced with cc if they need it and heals, decent but not really great gear has a 75% success rate. This would equate to near 95% succss rate for a well geared party. Better xp and loot then now.
      • Elite at level party, balanced, well geared. 75% success rate. So one time out of four they would still fail. That is not easy...actually harder in most cases compared to elite dungeons currently. Much better xp and loot then now.
    • Epic is special. It is one difficulty setting. Either split it in three (again with heavy duty boosts to loot) settings or have different dungeons set up as different difficulties based upon their listed level (which of course would mean no more lazy button all the same level listed). I prefer the latter with better loot from the higher level ones of course.
    • Put a three minute shared cooldown on all mana pots. This should reduce the powering through options and allow the developers to finally balance based upon these very powerful items.
    • Add a save to the new caster dots for half damage.
    • Never ever again cater to the must have super easy content at high level or must have really super hard content at non-cap players again. Seriously, it has messed the game up enough already. Balance the content consistently for it's level and difficulty setting. If it is easier then the rewards should be MUCH less (difficulty setting).
    • Do NOT go through the entire game and rework the difficulties of all the quests. Change the level of the quests to reflect their true difficulty. Then go through and make changes on a case by case basis where needed in specific cases...like end fight of elite Into the Flesh which will not make sense no matter what level you set the normal quest to.
    Last edited by Cyr; 12-22-2011 at 11:40 AM.
    Proud Recipient of At least 8 Negative Rep From NA Threads.
    Main: Sharess
    Alts: Avaril/Cyr/Cyrillia/Garagos/Inim/Lamasa/Ravella

  18. #198
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    4,827

    Default

    (I apologize for the length here)

    Difficulty... a difficult subject. Games walk the line between challenge and frustration. Too difficult and game becomes frustrating and not fun, too easy and there is no challenge and no fun. The trick is to find the right balance.

    However, while some things are difficult they are not necessarily fun.

    Things that I, personally, find more frustrating than challenging:

    Automatic failures for things that are overly 'luck' influenced. Don't kill more than 5 spiders in Let Sleeping Dust Lie as an example. Especially with 4 spiders in the final boss fight. Ways this frustration could be made more fun: make the spiders killed an optional with a bonus chest for completion, two bonus chests for no spiders killed. XP bonus for the optional. Cut the base xp for the quest in half. And/or make the spiders healable or add an optional objective that would allow you to still complete the quest even if 5 spiders threw themselves on your blade.

    Boss fights that are an 'order of magnitude' more difficult then the entire rest of the dungeon. As an example: Enter the Kobold is either a cake walk or challenging until you get to the boss fight (depending on the party). And then you die. Well, if it was a cake walk then you probably don't die, but if it was challenging you do. Devil Assault is similar. A party that can handle the end challenge is going to find everything leading up to it to be a bore, those that find everything before the end challenge to be challenging will find the end fight deadly and frustrating. <-- While I give two specific examples here this set-up seems to me to be a little too common in the game. At least when soloing with hireling. Yes, by now I've learned which ones are which but there are a number of quests I just skip because it isn't worth the frustration.

    On the plus side of Devil Assault you get XP for each wave (and loot for the third wave), which means if you never complete it you could still (in theory) use it to level.

    Backtracking for no good reason. A lot of console games did this in the past to artificially inflate game length. Go thru a somewhat linear adventure to a certain point, you can't get into this section until you find something or do something further on, and then you have to come back to do this part, and then you have to go back to be able to continue. Coalescence Chamber is one of the big culprits in this one and it certainly does not help that certain sections of that dungeon repeat almost exactly, making it somewhat easy to loose track of where you are even if you've done the quest until your eyes bleed.

    Making something more challenging does not mean adding more hit points IMO. If you want something to be more difficult to kill, then add some type of defense to certain things but make it bypassable or mitigatable. For instance, add cleric minions that heal the boss, but can be killed. Add some sort of magic item that gives the boss DR or extra resistance to certain spells (or immunity) but it can be destroyed.

    Bosses that self-heal; it can be extremely frustrating to fight a boss that you can whiddle down to 50% health only to have them instantly and uninterruptably heal themselves. Over and over. Perhaps a reduced chance of healing themselves as time goes on or if certain other conditions are met (they are being meleed for instance, since they don't seem to have to worry about concentration checks).

    Random rare 'must-have' loot. Come on! I have a character that has run Weapon Shipment over 20 times and not gotten a Mysterious Bauble, while another character got it on the first run of the quest. The item is considered a 'must have' for pretty much any caster (if not any character with a blue bar) but the randomness is just plain crazy. Either increase the chances as the quest is repeated (not necessarily to 100%) or put it as an automatic in a '20th completion' or such.

    Epics: Epic should be a level range, not a difficulty setting. Epic dungeons should be dungeons that are level 20+ and should have the same 5 difficulties as everything else (c/n/h/e). I don't see any problem with taking the current 'epic' quests and changing them to level 20+ quests with those difficulty settings, even if they are 'repeating content'. Just put a 'return to ' on the quest name or something (I know this would make a certain part of Delera's funny).

    On another note, but spot-on topic:

    Green Steel. Available at 12th level to TRs, available at 16th level to all others. It appears that all pre-free-to-play 16th level and above content assumes the characters will all be green steel equipped. If a person mentions that a quest is 'overly difficult' the response from the community tends to be 'grind out some green steel'. Loot that has been added since F2P, and especially Cannith Crafting has been limited to 'not be more powerful than green steel' unless it also has similiar or greater grind involved.

    I think this detracts from the game for newer players. Because it is a grind and not fun after a certain amount of time. But it doesn't have to be. The reason it is a grind is because each player must run each of the 5 vale quests for the stones and a random chance at the base ingredients, and then run shroud 5 or more times for sufficient ingredients to make a tier 3 item, which (with some abberant exceptions) can only be worked on inside the shroud itself. Yes, there have been improvements to the system over the years, like the portals that open at the end of shroud so you can go back and now the latest addition of Vale ingredients (Chipmunk Funks, etc.) to the end reward list in Shroud. Some guilds have access to the shroud altars on their guild ship. Perhaps some of the guild items should be looked at from the perspective of guilds that have both high-level and low-level members (like the resist shrines).

    But why? Why not just make the altars available in Meredia? Or in the crafting halls? Let the big guilds slot something else in those spots. As it stands if a player doesn't want to be part of a 'mega-guild' they loose out on the easy access to green steel altars.

    Some green steel ingredients drop in quests other than the vale, but they are rare and really why not drop from any quest that is 16+? Or at least any quest with a devil in it.

    Why not allow turn-in's of other high-level crafting ingredients to a 'crafting trader' for green steel ingredients? Or green steel ingredients for Alchemical ones? Maybe even a turn-in to get the stones for making blanks.

    Regarding difficulty for uber-geared players/groups: I think this is what Elite is for, balance Elite for the uber-geared player/group, but don't expect people to have uber-gear on normal. Give appropriate rewards for elite. And not necessarily just uber-gear. Unique cosmetics can go a long way, you might be surprised. Especially if the only way to get that re-apply-able armor/weapon/hat/etc. cosmetic is to beat a quest on Elite. Even better would be each such quest has a list of unique cosmetics. No power-creep with cosmetics.

    Perspective disclaimer: I have limited time to play. I mostly solo quests with a hireling. I made my own guild and it has one other casual member. I understand that the game is created for groups and I do not expect to be able to solo everything on elite at level. I do, however, like being able to have a good chance at completing quests on normal that are one level below my character or at level. I have capped 6 characters, have another at 16, another at 11 and the rest are 9s. Once I cap a character I don't enjoy playing the character as much because I feel I am loosing out on xp since the character is capped. I like leveling.
    Last edited by MrkGrismer; 12-22-2011 at 10:47 AM.


    Quote Originally Posted by MajMalphunktion View Post
    *Handwraps. Yes we know. Here is my known issue for handwraps. Hand wraps in assorted flavors are borked.

  19. #199
    Community Member AsburyParker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    84

    Default Soloable level

    I am a relatively new player (highest level character is level 9). And due to time constraints, I tend to solo content on normal so far. The difficulty level seems appropriate. I tend to die on certain quests mainly due to lack of experience. This is how it should be. I am trying to learn the game and as long as I am able to make progress, I am fine with the difficulty levels.

    One thing that does bother me is non-soloable content (particularly quests) at any level. Quests like rest for the restless, tomb of the burning heart, and from what I have read the xorian cipher, which are non-soloable even on normal because of game mechanics is annoying. It is my perspective that all content in the game should be soloable. I have to specify that this does not mean soloable at all levels, but there should be a setting where a person who wants to learn the game, on their own, can solo. Apparently, some of these mechanics were implemented when the game and player base was more group oriented. And hirelings were the answer to making the content more solo-friendly. IMO this is a cheap/lazy fix, and it still leaves some content unsoloable. In short, certain difficulty level(s) (causal/normal or maybe solo) should be soloable always without the use a hirelings; other levels hard/elite should require the use of hirelings and/or other players. Leave the simultaneous lever pulling/pressure plate pressing mechanics in the group-based difficulty levels.

  20. #200
    Community Member dkyle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Pittsburgh
    Posts
    5,477

    Default

    There are several basic types of difficulty:

    Gear tests: content that just expects a lot of gear. High attack bonus, high DPS, high HP, that require a lot of gear to achieve. This is mostly a test of how much time has been spent progressing the character by getting new gear. TR benefits also fall into this, essentially.

    Skill tests: content that expects players to understand the game, and play it well. There are two components to this:

    Gameplay tests: things that test player tactics, communication, cooperation and keyboard/mouse skills.

    Build tests: Yes, this is a matter of skill. Understanding the game, and building a good character is a matter of strategy and analysis. This also includes choice of gear.


    A very new character is likely to be wanting on all those things. Korthos and the Harbor are very forgiving, and as a result, anyone with even a little skill and/or gear can blow through them like nothing. But not a problem; we need content for the newest players.

    But were does the much vaunted "casual" player fit in? Do they simply not have much time to play, thus rating lower on Gear tests, or are they just not very good players, and so rate lower on Skill tests?

    On the gear side, the game should provide content for every level of advancement. It's obvious when we talk about quest levels vs. character level. But gear is just another form of advancement, not so different from XP. The game needs a stronger sense of what "level" of gear is expected, and ensure a clear, well populated path up. Now, that doesn't mean we need to mimic WoW, with gear scores, and Raids mathematically designed to be impossible without sufficiently high scoring gear. DDO's gear is too widely varied, too eccentric, to capture in a score, and I don't want to see that change.

    On the skill side, the more the game predicates success and failure on skill, the better. That doesn't mean requiring perfect play at all times, but it does mean that it's OK to expect players to think, and put forth an effort to understand the game. Part of that is smoothing out the nature of the game as we level. The game changes very quickly, and the lessons learned while leveling tend to not apply at end-game. It's all too easy to get to level 14 and not think that HP is anything worth worrying about, and that AC is more important.

    The new normal Shroud is something that's a hot-button. Ultimately, I think it primarily increased on the Skill test side, and not the Gear test side, and so I'm OK with it. Die from blades, and under 300 HP? Skill test failure. Bad build, bad gear choices. It's not really a Gear test, because the gear needed to break 300 is easy to get if you actually decide to seek it out. Kill all the Devils, and wipe as all four blades swarm the melee on Harry? Skill failure. Bad tactics. Ultimately, a "casual" player doesn't need to spend an inordinate amount of time preparing to run Shroud. They just need to care enough to play the game well. Ultimately, the more a player feels that their skill and preparation paid off, the sweeter success tastes. But the flipside is that bad play should mean failure.

    To me, "casual" shouldn't mean "unskilled", but I think they get grouped together too often.


    On the topic of failure, I think there are three factors that make it sting especially hard:

    1. All the time consuming, boring stuff you need to go through again to get to the boss fight you wiped on. In almost every raid, there's a bunch of long, boring pre-boss stuff that it is utterly trivial, and in most cases, doesn't really even matter for resource consumption. If a failure at a challenging boss meant hopping back in, and trying again, right away, I don't think we'd mind so much. Perhaps have a "boss flag" that gets applied to all group members when the party first engages the boss. The flag lasts for 2 hours, and if everyone in the group has it applied when they enter a new instance of the Raid (or enter the Subterrene), they can choose to skip right to the boss fight.

    2. Extreme resource consumption when things go badly. One of the worst parts of failure is that it tends to be accompanied by a bunch of SP pots drank to try to squeeze through, with nothing to show for it. SP pots in general need to be adjusted, and doing so would help here. I suggest putting a difficulty scaling cooldown on them (normal: one minute; hard: two minutes; elite: five minutes). In addition, to avoid pressure to drink as early as possible, even if things are going well, only allow them to work at under 10% (don't waste them if drinking is attempted; just display an error message). For implementation, I'd suggest not using the normal cooldown system, since it can put people on cooldown even if the action doesn't actually register. Instead, just apply a "buff" to the drinker that prevents SP pots from being drunk for that duration. The "buff" would only be applied at the same moment the SP are actually applied. End result here is that a failure is likely to only have cost a single pot, but pots are still useful for "we almost got this, just a little more time!" situations.

    3. Lack of satisfaction from success. Even if it takes a bunch of attempts, finally getting that Elite ToD completed is exciting until you invariably get basically nothing out of it but 1 more completion to 20. It's a difficult balancing act, to be sure, but I think ultimately the rewards do not scale well enough with difficulty. Perhaps allow Hard and Elite to count as multiple completions towards 20 (2 and 3 respectively)? If it takes 3 attempts to finish an Elite ToD, then it feels less bad when the rewards are 3 times as great.

Page 10 of 67 FirstFirst ... 678910111213142060 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload