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  1. #81
    Community Member Kadriel's Avatar
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    I just like to point out that while there is a lot of nerd rage out there, I really think much of the dev team. The past year we had a lot of interation with some of them, like Mad, Flimsy, Kookie and Eladrin to name a few.

    Cordovan was also a very welcome change to the the community team (though I aways apreciate tolero's work aswell)

    Maj should be getting an award (and a big xmas bonus) for the amount of communication (and patience) he is having with us lately (and I bet he instead get to hear he shouldn't share as much from some ppl at turbine, and a lot of inpolite comments from forumites - don't worry Maj, most of us love you).

    I'll wait untill the posts are up to express my opinions on the topics, but as far as introduction goes, here is what I want to see in 2012:

    - More devs speaking to the community
    - More of Eladrins puzzles
    - More power to Maj and others that care about community.

  2. #82
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkyle View Post
    I've not seen these threads.

    I do, however, think that pre-U9 balance was at least less-bad than what we have now. Casters played an important role, melee played an important role. It wasn't ideal, since there was a problem with not needing more than one or two casters, but it was obviously better balance than "casters can do everything better".
    The major difference between then and now is casters were doing 95% of the work but allowing melee to collect the kill count tally then, while now casters can do all the work and reap all the kills now.

    Melee was piking the entire time, both then and now. They were also demanding casters have a 44 DC to join groups, then waffled when 44 NECRO DC was what was brought to the table.

    "No no no, I dont want you to kill it, I want you to make it harmless so I can kill it. I had a wizard, barbarian, coupla bards, and a rogue back then, and I thought playing a melee was equally as boring during those times as it is now.

    Cant wait for the individual threads.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  3. #83
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by madmaxhunter View Post
    Thank you Mr. Floyd. This is exciting news, just you posting here proves that the Devs DO listen to the forumites.

    I have one suggestion, could the Major get a promotion? I think he's due for the rank of Lt Col. Of course Lt Col Malphunktion doesn't have the same ring.
    General Malphunktion?



    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Some of the topics on my mind are:
    - class balance
    - overall difficulty of content
    - bugs
    - AC
    - Ranged combat
    - Challenges
    - True Reincarnation
    - Strengths & weaknesses of the game
    - where we're headed
    Class balance is totally out of whack - unless bosses are heavily Lightning or Cold resistant or really unusual things are happening in an encounter, melee classes are totally obsolete unless they are heavily defensively specced. Why would I bring the Kensai that can do 400 DPS for 5 minutes, when I could replace them with the Sorcerer that can do 700 DPS for 5 minutes without needing any healing at all? Epic Chronoscope is the poster child of this - all caster runs have half the completion time of mixed class groups, and use no resources at all.
    Casters can kill ten tough trash mobs in the time it takes melees to kill one, but that's mostly the insane power of AoE death spells.

    Content difficulty - we've gone from '6 person Epics are hard, 12 person content is easy' to '6 person Epics are easy, 12 person content is tough' over the last year. This has the consequence of locking the more casual player out of the storylines of the tougher raids. At the same time, there's nothing truly tough in DDO, merely a bunch of endurance fights that test SP/boost conservation.
    IMO the solution is to have complexity, not just monster stats, scale with difficulty. Consider what Shroud would be like if in part 2, Normal had three Lieutenants and Elite had 6, then in part 4, the spiraling blades were on all difficulties, but only Hard/Elite had them shoot back out at the raid, and only Elite had the seeker blades on devil death.

    Bugs - there's a million and one of them. Some should be priorities (shared bank lag issues), others less so. I wouldn't mind bugs so much if GMs were able to replace items eaten by them.

    AC - copied from my 'Update 13 release notes wishlist' here: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=354769

    Code:
    System Overhaul: Player AC
    
    Monster to-hit and the grazing hit system has been adjusted with the following goals in mind:
    
    * On Normal and Casual difficulties, a casual player that has made a moderate attempt at raising their Armor Class (level-appropriate items or buffs to Natural Armor, Protection and wearing full plate and a shield) should take a lot less damage from most monsters. This should apply all the way from level 1 to 20.
    * On Elite difficulty, a highly optimised first life character that has gone out of their way to acquire high-quality defensive equipment and that uses some form of defensive combat stance should take noticeably less damage from most monsters.
    * On Epic difficulty, a highly optimised multi-TR character that is decked out in top-notch defensively-oriented raid/epic loot and that fights in a defensive combat stance should be missed often enough to matter by the majority of monsters and should take noticeably less damage from the tougher raid bosses.
    * A wider range of AC should be relevant in all content. Currently in Shroud Normal, an AC of 8 is the same as an AC of 40 (everything hits you on a 2) and likewise an AC of 77 is the same as an AC of 97 (everything misses you on an 18, grazes on a 19 and hits on a 20).
    * High AC should not make you unable to be damaged on its own, but should allow you to survive longer – maybe even much longer – between healing.
    * If possible, the d20 system's '5% auto-hit, 5% auto-miss' will be preserved.
    
    To achieve those goals:
    * Monsters of significant power now roll more than 1d20 on their attack rolls. Red and purple named bosses roll an additional 1d20 in all content. All monsters in Epic difficulty content roll an additional 1d20. Monster to-hit has been reassessed (downwards) to take this into account.
    * Where monsters roll more than one attack die, only the first die rolled determines critical threats, automatic hits for rolling a 20, automatic misses for rolling a 1, or grazing hits.
    * Grazing hits are now dealt on rolls of 15 or higher on all difficulties. Grazing hits now deal 15/20/25/30/40% of the attacker's base damage (c/n/h/e/EP) and do not proc special effects.
    * Monster to-hit varies widely within quests on the same difficulty level.
    
    Example:
    Consider the Lord of Blades on Epic difficulty (a purple-named boss). For this example, he has been reassessed to have +76 To-Hit, and as an epic purple name, he rolls 3d20. His critical threat range is 17-20 and he has a special effect (Touch of the Mournlands) that procs on critical hits. Consider a player with 101 AC being attacked by him.
    
    If the LOB rolls 2, 2, 20: The attack misses. LOB has rolled 100, and the player's AC is higher than that.
    If he rolls 20, 1, 1 – the attack is an automatic hit and critical threat.
    If he rolls 15, 2, 3 – the attack is a grazing hit. The LOB has rolled only 96 and the player's AC is higher than this, but as the first die is at least 15, this qualifies as a graze. Being Epic difficulty, the player suffers 40% of the regular damage, and would not suffer any special weapon procs such as Flaming or Wounding if the LOB somehow got one of them.
    If he rolls 15, 12, 1 – the attack is a hit. The LOB has rolled 104, higher than the player's AC, and the '1' isn't on the first roll and so does not matter.
    If he rolls 13, 11, 19 – the attack is a hit, but does not threaten a critical hit as the '19' was not on the magic first roll.
    If he rolls 19, 2, 2: The attack misses but lands a grazing hit. Despite '19' being a possible critical threat, the overall roll wasn't high enough to make it hit. This does not proc Touch of the Mournlands.
    If he rolls 19, 7, 9: The attack is a critical threat. If successfully confirmed, this will inflict Touch of the Mournlands, even if the extra damage is blocked by fortification.
    Ranged combat:
    It's getting better, but only because of encounter design that rewards it. Where Sorc ranged DPS is higher than melee DPS except in the very longest endurance battles, archer ranged DPS is far, far lower. A dedicated archer with no melee or spellcasting options is not a viable build in DDO at the moment.
    IMO a simultaneous buffing of ranged attack rates and nerfing of Manyshot is a good starting point.

    Challenges:
    So much potential, but not quite there. Really would like to see a challenge that is solely based on combat with individually powerful mobs/bosses (the mansion ones are much more about speedkills of individually weak mobs).

    True Reincarnation:
    IMO the XP requirements remain too high. Levelling TRs is a grind and a chore to me, made better by the bravery bonus but still not there yet. The large XP requirements cause TRing players to be less new-player friendly too - I for one have posted LFMs as obnoxious as 'Zerging, started, people that can't make it here will be publicly mocked' and 'Zerging, elitist jerks only' when I've just wanted to speed up the time I'm stuck playing a class I don't enjoy.
    The two things I'd suggest are:
    - Let us choose to play as a 32 point build on 'intermediate' lives. 32 build points, 1.9m XP requirements.
    - Change tomes that are looted in raids so that they persist through TRing. Unbound tomes would continue to be destroyed upon use, but bound tomes would not be 'used up', meaning you could use it again on your next life.

    Strengths of the game:
    Best combat in any MMO

    Weaknesses:
    Class imbalance
    Lack of a clear future direction.
    Last edited by sirgog; 12-21-2011 at 05:21 PM.

  4. #84
    Community Member dkyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The major difference between then and now is casters were doing 95% of the work but allowing melee to collect the kill count tally then, while now casters can do all the work and reap all the kills now.
    Kill count is irrelevent. And melee doing the killing is still strictly more contribution than doing nothing.

    But trash isn't really the point. Casters have always owned trash. The difference post U9 is that casters now easily own bosses, too. That used to be the niche for Melee. No longer.

    Either melee need their niche back, or they need to be balanced vs both trash and bosses.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Some of the topics on my mind are:
    - class balance
    - overall difficulty of content
    - bugs
    - AC
    - Ranged combat
    - Challenges
    - True Reincarnation
    - Strengths & weaknesses of the game
    - where we're headed

    I'm sure I'm forgetting some at the moment. These threads won't all happen at once, but I hope to get them going as soon as possible.

    Thanks in advance for your constructive participation!
    Thanks for the heads up about these future threads. I won't go into any detail about my opinions on these subjects until the threads pop up so there is a more focused discussion on the issues individually. However, I'll include my thoughts on the topics in a general sense.

    Class Balance can be split into two subjects: 1) balancing between the different classes and 2) balancing within the classes. Both of these can be solved mostly with finishing, boosting, polishing and/or completing the Prestige classes.

    The "overall difficulty of content" seems a bit vague. I can think of several directions this topic can go. Are we talking about the difficulty of content at level? Are we talking to the adjustments made to raids because of capped players doing those raids? Are we talking about what's expected in the Casual setting vs the Elite setting? This is a nice juicy topic that I expect to have tentacles arms.

    Bug...son of tentacle arms.

    AC is one of those subjects that will probably be the hot button topic. It needs to be fixed, however, no matter how it's fixed, there will be someone upset about it. However, as others have pointed out, fixing AC will go a long way to balancing the classes.

    Ranged combat is something that I rarely do unless it's necessary so I won't comment on it much...except to say don't forget about throwing weapons. It'd be nice to see Halflings get some use from their weapon specialty.

    Challenges... More variety, sprinkled in as side content to packs while being able to solo on any class to meet the main objective will help Challenges alot. After all, soloing while waiting for friends was pitched to the players as the selling point for the Challenges.

    True Reincarnation is a subject that I've been meaning to write a thread about. It looks like I'll save my thoughts until this thread is started.

    Strength and weaknesses of the game and where we're heading now will be interesting reads.

    Two subjects that I think you missed that might be worth looking at...

    * Balancing between races. The AP costs for certain races is quite steep when compared to others, such as Halfling and Half-Elf when it comes to sneak attack.
    * Dragonmarks. I seriously think that Dragonmarks need be pared down to one feat and a steep AP cost per tier.

  6. #86
    Community Member Nataichal's Avatar
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    First off, Thanks Madfloyd for doing this. I missed the days of consumer feedback prior to release, and welcome this return to a dialogue.

    Also,


    Quote Originally Posted by dkyle View Post
    Sounds good! Looking forward to this.

    Initial thoughts on those topics:

    - class balance: Casters (both Arcane and Divine) render dedicated melee classes almost entirely obsolete. Each should have their own place, as more than just one or two per party. The biggest problem is U9 took away melee's formerly major advantage in sustained DPS.

    - overall difficulty of content: Overall, reasonable. I'd like to continue to see higher difficulty rewarded with higher droprates, and thus, less boring grind.

    - bugs: Not much I can say on this end as a player. There do seem to be more and more than there used to be.

    - AC: Don't be afraid to lose the D20. Try to make all AC count for at least something.

    - Ranged combat: Full-on Ranged DPS should be less than full-on Melee DPS, but still useful. 10% less over time seems reasonable. Caster DPS should either be truly non-sustainable, in actual practice, or less than Archer DPS.

    - Challenges: Good idea, but some problems. Scaling is a bit extreme, discouraging grouping. I absolutely despise the Pay2Win stuff, though.

    - True Reincarnation: Ideally, TR shouldn't be something that interferes with our end-game progression. We should be free to TR when we want, without losing more than the XP. As it is, we're encouraged to either TR serially, until we're "done", then get tomes, and Raid completions. That's not as much fun as being able to mix end-game advancement and TR freely. To that end, don't kill Raid tomes on TR, and don't reset Raid completions.

    - Strengths & weaknesses of the game: Strengths: Active combat, varied and interesting build options, well designed quests. Weaknesses: Too grind heavy, too much Pay2Win (and a disturbing trend towards more), and class balance is out of whack.

    - where we're headed: I'm most worried about the business side. More Pay2Win, more money-grubbing tactics like the initial Arti release.

    Some good points there. When he posts the different threads, make sure to put your comments in them. I wouldn't mind discussing a point or two.

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  7. #87
    Community Member TDarkchylde's Avatar
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    Just a couple of quick initial thoughts:

    -AC

    It's almost there. New items putting new bonuses in unfamiliar slots helps some, but it's still pretty difficult to get a workable AC for Elite raids. It's almost there.

    -True Reincarnation

    Let me keep my raid tomes and we'll be golden there. Could use just a touch more XP in the 18-19 range that's worth running (The U11 stuff was nice, but it takes too long), but it's getting there. Variety beats grind. Also, having raids ignore Bravery entirely would be HUGE. I'd even give up a full-Bravery-boosted Elite VoN5 to have a Normal Shroud or ToD not break my streak when I need it the most.

    -Overall difficulty of content

    Two words: Normal Shroud. The increased blade damage was overkill.

    One more word: ABBOT. Totally screwed up now.

    That all said, thanks for opening the lines of communication back up. Believe me, I'll have more to say when the specialized topics get posted.

    Also, +1 to giving Maj a raise and/or promotion. I respect the way he's been doing things as of late.
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  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by waterboytkd View Post
    Three moons? My dear sir (or madam), Eberron has 13 moons. Turns out, 13 is a special number for Eberron. It's the number of planes connected to Eberron, it's the number of Dragonmarks (one of them is now 'extinct', but could resurface), it's, um, the number of moons...I think there's some more 13s out there...

    The moons are also somehow tied to the planes. When the giants severed the tie to Dal Quor, one of the moons disappeared (but it's still supposed to be there, I think...). When the Gatekeepers sealed the routes to and from Xoriat, one of the moons' orbit moved far far out of whack, so now that moon is super far away.
    There's also the 13 gods (7 in the Sovereign Host plus the Dark Six). Of course, the setting was written by Keith Baker, so it's no surprise to see so many Baker's dozens show up.

  9. #89
    Community Member lugoman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadriel View Post

    Maj should be getting an award (and a big xmas bonus) for the amount of communication (and patience) he is having with us lately (and I bet he instead get to hear he shouldn't share as much from some ppl at turbine, and a lot of inpolite comments from forumites - don't worry Maj, most of us love you).
    I think Turbine should have Maj man a booth at Pax - kind of a reverse kissing booth. People could head to the booth and unleash their nerd rage at him.

  10. #90
    Founder Xyfiel's Avatar
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    Air Savant + Call lightning storm Dragonmark still is broken, has been since release. An acknowledgment that you are aware of it would be nice.

    There are many things I planned to go over once I become unemployed in April and got a few months off. Here are some more things for the to do list:
    Quest xp balancing
    Feat balancing
    Static reward balancing(specifically the older quest chains)
    AP balancing

    I wouldn't work on major mechanic changes for balance until most of the Prestige classes are finished. This is a high priority item along with bugs. Same thing with new items. Just adding some nice repeaters, dwarven axes, etc would help balance certain combat types, which in turn means less need for major melee/caster/ranged balance.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    I'd like to get your feedback on a number of topics and to that end I will be starting separate threads on each of them. The idea here is to make sure we're hearing your wishes, get constructive feedback on past updates as well as some future plans, and being able to drill down and ask some specific, but important questions.
    In addition to soliciting feedback, I suggest you also (not immediately, but someday) provide more information on what you're doing and what your evaluation of past events was like. It's hard to give good feedback when you can perceive hardly anything of the audience's mindset or reaction; "talking to a wall".

    For example, there was a recent change to some raid difficulty and loot, and earlier this year was a huge change to damage-dealing spells. What were your intentions for those changes, and how do you view them in hindsight? That's just an example of the kinds of things that would be entertaining for players to know, and which would allow for better feedback. (It might be easier to instead start with some lesser topics that won't take as much time to describe and don't have as much accumulated emotion behind them)

    For a comparative example of the amounts of disclosures a game developer can get away with, see threads like this. Note some of the pattern there:
    The intent of the mechanic was indeed to require XYZ. As it turned out, players discovered that a very, very precise ABC. All of the initial LMNO kills used this tactic, and it became the standard way of doing the fight.
    These developers tell what they intended, then demonstrate awareness of what actually happened, and later will go on to describe what they'll do different next time.

  12. #92
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    Great initiative.
    Various hedge-wizards and halfwits, please see MyDDO for all your squelching needs
    Lyrandar 2006 - Devourer 2007 - Thelanis 2009 - Ghallanda 2010

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solmage View Post
    Yes, and that's why most raid parties in non-dedicated guilds are usually made up of 10 casters and 1 token melee ... oh wait.

    Want me to post some LFMs for you?

    No, what we need, ACTUALLY, is for the group leader to be able to take eleven PEOPLE and for the raid to succeed well if those people are competent. If they are on competent melees, no problem, if they're on casters, no problem. U9 got very close to that, and that was awesome. We've since strayed from that, unfortunately. LOB once again forces the group makeup of 1 or 2 token arcanes, rest the useful classes.

    That is NOT balance.
    MadFloyd, thanks for undertaking this task. Some of us have been very vocal on the forums about the issues we see confronting the game. Obviously, we care or else we would have simply walked away.

    Why do we care? Well, in many ways DDO is just an outstanding game. Although the players on the forums like to talk about things they DON'T like, rest assured most (if not all) of us have a ton of things we DO like. Please try to keep that in mind whenever the feedback you are about to receive is on the verge of driving you to scream in frustration

    On many issues, you are sure to receive conflicting opinions. I quoted one in this post that is sure to be a hot button. I'll refrain from offering my opinion now, as I expect I will receive ample opportunity in the near future.

  14. #94
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    Yeah I'm not going to go into my specific thoughts here because that is what the individual threads are for.




    I think Prestige Enhancements needs to be on that list somewhere. Perhaps it's covered under a topic that I can't fathom?
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  15. #95
    The Hatchery Scraap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joldahks View Post
    I think Prestige Enhancements needs to be on that list somewhere. Perhaps it's covered under a topic that I can't fathom?
    I'm thinkin class balance, since they're supposed to be extensions of class strengths.

  16. #96
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    Something else that needs to really change here..

    Stop listening to the 10 people who have been here from the start of ddo and have everything for every class. The ones that ddo is their life. They know everything and have done everything 1000 times. The last couple of packs and major changes are an excellent example of it. Stop gearing content for them and them alone.

    Looking up thru this thread i see them. And their usual complaints. This game is too easy. Nerf everything i'm not using. They are an extreme minority even here on the forums. Yet so much content now seems to be set just for them.

    Stuff like that is leaving new players and less hardcore players pretty screwed. And they are LEAVING for other games (there are many of them) that are easier to get into.

    Population is getting to be a serious problem for the average player. (and no i dont want to hear yet again how your guild does this or that with 0 pots and no deaths. And your groups fill in record time. )

    If the population drops much more around here. This game is gonna die hard and quick. You'll be left with your elitest core that will not be able to pay enough to keep this place open and active...

  17. #97
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzy1guy View Post
    Something else that needs to really change here..

    Stop listening to the 10 people who have been here from the start of ddo and have everything for every class. The ones that ddo is their life. They know everything and have done everything 1000 times. The last couple of packs and major changes are an excellent example of it. Stop gearing content for them and them alone.

    Looking up thru this thread i see them. And their usual complaints. This game is too easy. Nerf everything i'm not using. They are an extreme minority even here on the forums. Yet so much content now seems to be set just for them.

    Stuff like that is leaving new players and less hardcore players pretty screwed. And they are LEAVING for other games (there are many of them) that are easier to get into.

    Population is getting to be a serious problem for the average player. (and no i dont want to hear yet again how your guild does this or that with 0 pots and no deaths. And your groups fill in record time. )

    If the population drops much more around here. This game is gonna die hard and quick. You'll be left with your elitest core that will not be able to pay enough to keep this place open and active...

    The biggest exodus of players I've seen from this game was in the aftermath of 6-person Epics going from quite challenging to super-easy in U9. I saw many endgame guilds fall apart as people got fed up with having nothing challenging at all left in the game.

    Most of the players that left were people that regularly grouped with newer players too.

  18. #98
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    I would disagree. The most people i saw leave came from the last two updates. The major exploits that trashed the economy. The unwanted UI changes. The lag and instability of the client. The overbuffing of bosses for no extra rewards. All at a time when many other games are comming out.

    And you say they grouped with new people.. But i've seen alot less lfms up with know it, byoh, zerg, tr only, link item X to join, and other sillyness like that.



    I would expect you to disagree tho. I'd be suprised if you didnt.

  19. #99
    Community Member dkyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    The biggest exodus of players I've seen from this game was in the aftermath of 6-person Epics going from quite challenging to super-easy in U9. I saw many endgame guilds fall apart as people got fed up with having nothing challenging at all left in the game.

    Most of the players that left were people that regularly grouped with newer players too.
    And that's why having stuff for the top 5% is important. I also it's important important for 95% to have a sense that there is some sort of future for them to work towards.

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by somenewnoob View Post
    I might suggest a more anonymous "survey" type thing instead of a forum post for these.

    I mean.....have you SEEN the forums lately?
    You mean so the over abundance of melee players can attempt to "balance" the game back to the dark ages when divines were just healbots and arcanes were just buffbots? No thanks. If we are going to get into discussions about things like class balance, I want an opportunity to rebut arguments that serve only to address the agenda of a subset of the players rather than the interests of the game as a whole.

    We have already seen people who have forgotten what happened to the game when the UI for divines was nerfed in update 11, with the majority of the divines in the game either rerolling or going on vacation. The game still has not recovered from that. Any changes that come out of this process should be able to withstand constructive criticism from the broader community to prevent those kind of problems from happening again.

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