Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 21 to 38 of 38
  1. #21
    Community Member bhgiant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    720

    Default

    Wow. Disintegration is equal to Lightning strike in damage per hit but it procs more often....

    BOW TO YOUR NEW GOD DDO!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    We are not working with the aliens to send messages that are picked up by your microwaved meatloaf dinner. At least I don't think so...
    Proud member of Tyrs Paladium

  2. #22
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    17,348

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bhgiant View Post
    Wow. Disintegration is equal to Lightning strike in damage per hit but it procs more often....

    BOW TO YOUR NEW GOD DDO!!!
    Yeah Corrosive Salt is similar damage per swing too (believed to be a 2% chance for 6 pulses of 5d10+50 per proc). Only problem is, those two effects do not make good Shroud weapons, as a fair bit of a Shroud weapon's DPS is tied up in the 'Holy' mutation that is not compatible with C-Salt or Disint.
    I don't have a zerging problem.

    I'm zerging. That's YOUR problem.

  3. #23
    Time Bandit
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    1,028

    Default Slicing Winds

    This post is for Slicing Winds. It can be found on the new version of Breeze from Abbot, and on the Elemental Rapier of Air from the cannith challenges.

    There were a total of 112117 samples. Out of those, there were 2236 procs, for a proc rate of 1.9943%, so most likely 2%. Each proc will deal 3 hits over several seconds, although very occasionally (<1% of the time) it'll give 4 hits. Slicing Winds can proc on glancing blows, subject to the magical proc rate.

    The observed damages, taking into account the helpless state of the dummy, were:

    Code:
    Damage	Count
    95	0
    96	0
    97	1
    98	0
    99	2
    100	1
    101	6
    102	5
    103	10
    104	20
    105	20
    106	22
    107	35
    108	53
    109	76
    110	71
    111	91
    112	135
    113	146
    114	153
    115	162
    116	212
    117	225
    118	246
    119	256
    120	298
    121	318
    122	314
    123	324
    124	326
    125	293
    126	307
    127	319
    128	273
    129	247
    130	247
    131	238
    132	208
    133	184
    134	181
    135	127
    136	121
    137	101
    138	65
    139	74
    140	53
    141	42
    142	26
    143	22
    144	12
    145	8
    146	8
    147	7
    148	6
    149	2
    150	1
    151	1
    152	1
    153	0
    154	1
    155	1
    156	0
    157	0
    158	0
    159	0
    160	0
    241	1
    250	2
    The last two entries are not a typo. For some reason, I saw a hit of 361 damage (241 damage after the dummy's helpless state is factored in) and two hits of 375 damage (250 damage after the dummy's helpless state is factored in). No one was around so it wasn't due to some buff or anything. Ignoring those 3 numbers, the average of the rest of the numbers was 124.05, and the standard deviation was 8.17. This fits pretty well with a dice of 8d10+80 (which is average 124 and standard deviation 8.12), so that is the most likely dice. Remember that there are in general 3 hits of that damage on a proc, so I'm writing it as 3*(8d10+80).

    I've also updated the disintegration entry with videos, just in case people feel like looking through it and counting up the samples themselves. Have fun.

  4. #24
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    4,710

    Default

    Good work as always.

    Were you having any lag for the big hits? I ask because they are suspiciously close to 2x the average, it's conceivable (to me anyway) the game interpreted two separate hits as one big hit.

  5. #25
    The Hatchery karl_k0ch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    4,596

    Default

    Deception can be found on: Ring of Lies, Treason, Shadow Star, Mirage, Tenebrous Stiletto, Cannith Crafting Shards

    Improved Deception can be found on: Epic Midnight Greetings, Epic Phialan Spy Dagger, Upgraded Ring of Lies, Upgraded Treason.

    (Yes, I am quite interested in the proc rates of these.)
    Last edited by karl_k0ch; 02-04-2012 at 06:02 AM.
    Toons on Orien: Meinir // Flodur // Twiddler // Thorkar // Impetor // Juliacantor // Minor all Soko Irrlicht
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    We may or may not intentionally insert in red herrings, purple mackerels, or horses of different colors. Void where prohibited. Not available in all planes of existence.

  6. #26
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    397

    Default

    Hey Vanshilar, keep up the good work here. Also, maybe you would be interested in a thorough testing of double strike?

  7. #27

  8. #28

    Default

    People indicate that the proc rate on the cormyrian weapons differ in some respects. Slicing Wind is an example.

  9. #29
    Time Bandit
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    1,028

    Default Greater Sunburst

    I tested the "Greater Sunburst" effect on the level 24 version of the Mabar Wraps on the training dummy.

    The total sample size was 143515 hit attempts, which resulted in 136385 hits (i.e. filtering out the misses). Of those, there were 2728 Greater Sunburst procs, for a proc rate of 2.00%. The 95% confidence interval for this is (1.93%, 2.08%) so it likely really is 2%.

    The damage effect on Greater Sunburst occurs slightly after it procs, so occasionally, the dummy will die after the effect procs but before its damage procs. So there are a few less procs that did damage. Anyway, the damage that I got (after factoring in the helpless damage) was:

    Code:
    Damage	Count
    116	1
    117	3
    118	0
    119	3
    120	4
    121	6
    122	6
    123	5
    124	9
    125	13
    126	12
    127	12
    128	9
    129	6
    130	9
    131	4
    132	6
    133	9
    134	5
    135	2
    136	4
    137	0
    138	1
    139	0
    223	0
    224	1
    225	0
    226	0
    227	2
    228	1
    229	3
    230	3
    231	3
    232	4
    233	4
    234	9
    235	13
    236	8
    237	15
    238	18
    239	19
    240	30
    241	32
    242	29
    243	50
    244	45
    245	68
    246	63
    247	56
    248	92
    249	83
    250	98
    251	109
    252	92
    253	92
    254	108
    255	121
    256	102
    257	111
    258	118
    259	106
    260	85
    261	100
    262	88
    263	90
    264	65
    265	61
    266	51
    267	44
    268	41
    269	28
    270	36
    271	28
    272	15
    273	16
    274	13
    275	12
    276	8
    277	9
    278	1
    279	0
    280	3
    281	3
    282	0
    The training dummy saved on Greater Sunburst 129 out of 2634 times, or 4.9% of the time, so yes there's a save on it. The dummy has very bad saves so naturally it basically only saves when it rolls a 20. I don't really know what the save is on the effect, since I don't think it shows up in the combat log (unless maybe in the pvp pit?).

    For the hits that weren't saved, the average was 255.21 with a standard deviation of 8.96. This fits a variety of different formulae, but with an observed low value of 224, the most obvious candidate would be 40d5 + 135, although I realize that's sort of non-standard dice. 10d10 + 200 is also a good possibility. [edited due to error]

    The damage works on the Abbot, at least on normal. Unlike the Radiant Blast that's on the level 20 version of the Mabar wraps, it does not do any additional damage vs undead compared with non-undead.

    Quote Originally Posted by bhgiant View Post
    Wow. Disintegration is equal to Lightning strike in damage per hit but it procs more often....

    BOW TO YOUR NEW GOD DDO!!!
    Actually, disintegration does less damage per proc, but procs more often. So it ends up having the same average damage output as lightning strike. Given the choice though, I think I'd rather take disintegration because there's lower chance of overkill (i.e. having the damage wasted because you do more damage than needed to kill a monster) and I think there's less things that are immune to disintegration compared with lightning strike.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kinerd View Post
    Were you having any lag for the big hits? I ask because they are suspiciously close to 2x the average, it's conceivable (to me anyway) the game interpreted two separate hits as one big hit.
    That's a possibility. I just pointed it out because it's what was in the raw data.

  10. #30
    The Hatchery karl_k0ch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    4,596

    Default

    Your research is much appreciated. +1, if I were allowed to. Apparently, I am a fanboy already.
    Toons on Orien: Meinir // Flodur // Twiddler // Thorkar // Impetor // Juliacantor // Minor all Soko Irrlicht
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    We may or may not intentionally insert in red herrings, purple mackerels, or horses of different colors. Void where prohibited. Not available in all planes of existence.

  11. #31
    Community Member Deathdefy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Waiting in the lava pits to chain trip you on the way to Prison of the Planes
    Posts
    1,601

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanshilar View Post
    For the hits that weren't saved, the average was 255.21 with a standard deviation of 8.96. This fits a variety of different formulae, but with an observed low value of 224, the most obvious candidate would be 40d5 + 215, although I realize that's sort of non-standard dice.
    EDIT: I don't think it can be 40d5 + 215 if the min observed is 224 since the min should be 255 with that formula I think. I could be completely misunderstanding what's going on though so please correct me if I'm just being terrible at maths.
    Last edited by Deathdefy; 11-02-2012 at 05:38 AM.
    Khyber: Aggrim (Completionist!)
    In Von 3 the breakables in the Troll Ambassador optional room are slow to get to and unnecessary for ransack.
    Blind insta-kills floating eye balls.

  12. #32
    Time Bandit
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    1,028

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathdefy View Post
    EDIT: I don't think it can be 40d5 + 215 if the min observed is 224 since the min should be 255 with that formula I think. I could be completely misunderstanding what's going on though so please correct me if I'm just being terrible at maths.
    Sorry yeah I meant 40d5 + 135. Obviously 40d5 + 215 wouldn't work because the average for that would be 335. I'll edit that post to clear up any confusion.

    What I'm actually doing is, given that the statistics are a mean of 255.21 and a standard deviation of 8.96, I can figure out, for each given dice face amount (d2, d3, d4, etc.), how many of that dice would be needed to match the experimentally determined standard deviation. So for example, for d2 it'd be 320.84d2, for d3 it'd be 120.31d3, etc. The formula can be derived from the formula for the statistics given dice of XdN:

    avg = X*(N+1)/2
    stdev = [X * (N*N-1)/12]^0.5

    From the second formula, the X (number of dice) that would be needed to match the observed standard deviation is:

    X = 12 * stdev * stdev / (N*N-1)

    I then take the the experimental average and subtract the average from this XdN, to determine what the additive constant would be given this XdN:

    C = experimental avg - X*(N+1)/2

    From here, given any N, I can give the estimated X and C for XdN + C, given the experimentally determined mean and standard deviation. In this case, it looks like:

    Code:
    X	N	C
    320.84	2	-226.05
    120.32	3	14.58
    64.17	4	94.79
    40.11	5	134.90
    27.50	6	158.96
    20.05	7	175.00
    15.28	8	186.46
    12.03	9	195.05
    9.72	10	201.74
    8.02	11	207.09
    6.73	12	211.46
    5.73	13	215.11
    4.94	14	218.19
    4.30	15	220.84
    3.77	16	223.13
    3.34	17	225.13
    2.98	18	226.90
    2.67	19	228.48
    2.41	20	229.88
    2.19	21	231.15
    1.99	22	232.29
    1.82	23	233.34
    1.67	24	234.29
    1.54	25	235.16
    1.43	26	235.96
    1.32	27	236.70
    1.23	28	237.39
    1.15	29	238.02
    1.07	30	238.62
    Basically, any of these XdN + C would fit the observed statistics. To bound the possibilities, I also assume that:

    1) The additive constant C is non-negative (which sets bounds on the lower end of N)
    2) The minimum possible in the formula is less than or equal to the minimum observed amount (which sets bounds on the higher end of N)
    3) The maximum possible in the formula is greater than or equal to the maximum observed amount (which sets bounds on the higher end of N)

    The first assumption would mean in this case that N is at least 3. The second assumption means that N is at most 14, since 4d15 + 221 is 225 but the minimum observed amount is 224. These are highlighted above.

    Any of those N fit the data, so I simply give one that seems like a value that a person would pick. For example, generally people tend to pick even numbers or multiples of 5, rather than something like 7d13 + 183. So here, anything like 40d5 + 135, 20d7 + 175, 12d9+195, or even something like 10d10 + 200 would be likely (in fact, 10d10 + 200 looks pretty good, all nice round numbers). It won't be 2d22 + 232 though, nor 321d2 - 226, or at least I hope not.

    In general though the specific dice isn't necessarily important, and it's the mean and possibly the standard deviation that matters.

    Thanks for pointing out the error. I probably shouldn't try to type these things up late at night.

  13. #33
    Community Member Deathdefy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Waiting in the lava pits to chain trip you on the way to Prison of the Planes
    Posts
    1,601

    Default

    Wow! That is the most interesting thing I've ever read on these forums.

    I had always wondered how the raw numbers from the Lightning Strike data converted into the final 20d20 + 400!

    Incidentally, I totally agree with you that 10d10 +200 sounds like a formula the game could use.
    Khyber: Aggrim (Completionist!)
    In Von 3 the breakables in the Troll Ambassador optional room are slow to get to and unnecessary for ransack.
    Blind insta-kills floating eye balls.

  14. #34
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    17,348

    Default

    Worth noting that this conclusively proves the formula is NOT the commonly-used 200+8d20 (Incineration, Greater Incineration, Cacophony and I think one or two of the rarely seen weaker procs as well).

    I would expect 200+10d10 to be the actual formula.
    I don't have a zerging problem.

    I'm zerging. That's YOUR problem.

  15. #35
    Community Member Xoham's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    117

    Default Weighted dice

    Very interesting thread!

    I think you've probably considered this angle, but just in case not, I thought I'd mention it: weighted dice.

    In DDO, rather than fireball and lightning bolt being 1d6/level, they use weighted dice and are instead 1d3+3/level. I think all spells in DDO use these weighted dice, so rather than 1d4 we have 1d2+2, and rather than 1d8 we have 1d4+4 etc. In general, if I use the notation "wd" rather than "d" to denote weighted dice rather than normal dice, then X weighted dice of Y sides XwdY = X(d(Y/2) + Y/2) = Xd(Y/2) + XY/2. So we can accurately say that fireball and lightning bolt are not 1d6/level but are actually 1wd6/level.

    As to the relevance to this thread, if I first define a new variable Y = 2N, then I can write X rolls of weighted dice of Y sides as:
    XwdY = X(d(Y/2) + Y/2) = Xd(Y/2) + XY/2 = XdN + XN.

    Now, the formula you are fitting your data to is XdN + C. If it so happened that C = XN, then your function would be exactly XwdY = Xwd(2N).

    Looking at the results you've determined in your initial post, this appears to often be the case:
    (Old) Cloudburst = 10d3 + 30 = 10wd6
    Disintegration = 15d20 + 300 = 15wd40
    Lightning Strike = 20d20 + 400 = 20wd40
    Slicing Winds = 3*(8d10 + 80) = 3*(8wd20)

    Unfortunately, even with spells there are exceptions, e.g. magic missile has an extra constant term per level. So it may well be that this way of thinking isn't always useful, e.g. the formula for Incineration doesn't match:
    Incineration = 8d20 + 200 = 8wd40 + 40 = 8(wd40 + 5)

    If it did happen to be the case for Greater Sunburst, then it looks like as close as you'd get to a match would be 27wd12 which doesn't look particularly "round" (though at least it's a regular D&D die size!). Oh well, this is probably an example of an effect that does have a magic-missile-like constant term.

    In any case, thanks for all of the work you've done with this!

    PS: A brief aside that again you're probably already aware of: Cloudburst has changed, and is now that nice exploding bubble sound and graphic on vorpal hits (I'm pretty sure only on vorpal, though am not logged in to check).

  16. #36
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    474

    Default

    I'm curious if you've retested cloudburst since the stealth upgrade. DDO wiki attributes the proc rate verification to this thread, but now the damage seems to be higher and added a ~100damage AoE sonic effect. If true to the 9% proc that would put damage around 13.5 single target (+ AoE for the sonic) which would dramatically improve weapons like Couldburst, which would then handily outstrip a Lit II for damage output, losing 7 damage from holy and lose 2pts of base damage (and a bit from shocking blast), but gaining 13.5 from cloudburst + AoE. The improvement is even better against non-evil enemies.

    So, I'm very curious to see if the proc rate has remained the same.

  17. #37
    Hatchery Founder Glenalth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    A mountain fortress.
    Posts
    4,325

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Inouk View Post
    I'm curious if you've retested cloudburst since the stealth upgrade. DDO wiki attributes the proc rate verification to this thread, but now the damage seems to be higher and added a ~100damage AoE sonic effect. If true to the 9% proc that would put damage around 13.5 single target (+ AoE for the sonic) which would dramatically improve weapons like Couldburst, which would then handily outstrip a Lit II for damage output, losing 7 damage from holy and lose 2pts of base damage (and a bit from shocking blast), but gaining 13.5 from cloudburst + AoE. The improvement is even better against non-evil enemies.

    So, I'm very curious to see if the proc rate has remained the same.
    It's on vorpal now.
    Glenalth Woodwalke ■ Preston the Ranger ■ Brisqoe the Dentist ■ Prescription Liberator
    AoK @ Argonnessen

  18. #38
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    474

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Glenalth View Post
    It's on vorpal now.
    Dang, if that's true it diminishes it's value greatly (almost half). Still, the AoE 100 sonic damage could be winner in groups of mobs I guess.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload