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  1. #1
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Default Not your average rogue ...

    This is a repost of another thread that I can't simply edit as I keep getting:

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    Apache Server at forums.ddo.com Port 80.

    This is my current TR project that I'm having a lot of fun with.

    I'd describe this as a perfect build for a player that is new to rogues. Spot and reflex saves are higher than a regular rogue making it ideal if you don't have trap locations memorised. I've comfortably kept a fail only on a 1 reflex save vs traps through my elite streak which leaves a lot of flexibility in lower difficulties or with more enhancements in trap sense if lacking gear. DPS is excellent with handwrap attack speed giving more sneak attacks and superior damage vs 100% fortification mobs (of which there are excessive amounts while leveling).

    AC has been the secret for me for this build from levels 1 to 11. With basically just consumables I kept an untouchable AC through most of the lower levels doing every quest (except 3BC) once on elite. In the middle levels this started to peter out but I made significant investments into gear and maintained the AC until now at level 14 I can manage 68 to 71 self buffed sustained AC for over 4 minutes when I swap in acrobat II in the morning. Obviously this is very gear dependent but there is also significant versatility here as anything over 40 is going to be useful with 50 to 60 being enough for most content (which this build can get with moderate gear I'd expect).

    Prior to level 12 I had cleric dilettante instead of fighter for super easy self healing with cure wands. At level 12 UMD is significant enough to self heal anyway and fighter dilettante becomes more valuable for the stunning blow enhancements (improved sunder and fighter strength I are good too). I'm at 33 stunning fist DC with stonedusts - 37 with +10 stunners - and enough stunning blow DC (being strength based) that improved sunder/stunning blow combo is just as effective.

    Stunning Fist/Blow has a massive impact on individual and group DPS. The value of stunning fist vs radiance isn't one that has been answered for me yet but stunning fist is certainly more accessible and flexible.

    My current and projected AC is enough to see me through elite amrath afaik which will give me a cushy ride to level 20 backed up with massive stun DPS (though DPS certainly doesn't rely on the stuns being strength based).

    At end game the build will sacrifice 5d6 sneak attack from losing the capstone and level 19 but is compensated by 10% faster attack speed and enough feats to have effective tactics (DCs detailed below). In raid situations afaik this build may have superior DPS vs 50% fort mobs+ and will increase group DPS by contributing to Improved Sunder checks and may actually generate the proc on account of the equipped item (which may put the DC into the ballpark of a barbarian or fighter without an item).

    Concept/Goals: Unarmed rogue build with a balance between CC and DPS.
    Class: 18 rogue / 2 monk
    Alignment: Lawful Neutral
    Multiclass progression: 1: Rogue, 2: Monk, 3-7: Rogue, 8: Monk (for 11 ranks in concentration), 9-20 rogue.

    Stats and Race (34pt build): Half-Elf
    Str: 38 (16 base +1 fighter +1 greater adaptability +5 levels +2 tome +7 item +3 exceptional +2 rage +2 madstone -2 water stance +1 LotD)
    Dex: 24 (15 base +2 tome +6 item +1 LotD)
    Con: 30 (14 base +2 tome +6 item +2 rage +4 madstone +1 LotD +1 exceptional con)
    Int: 24 (12 base +2 tome +6 item +3 exceptional +1 LotD)
    Wis: 32 (14 base +2 tome +2 enhancements +6 item +3 exceptional +2 alchemical +2 water stance +1 LotD)
    Cha: 17 (8 base +2 tome +6 item +1 LotD)
    32/36 point build: Drop int to 10 for a 32 point build, raise int to 14 for a 36 point build
    Alternative: Increase Wisdom to 16 at the cost of int. Probably more optimal at level 20.
    Ability increase every 4 levels: All in strength.

    Skills: Concentration, Balance, Bluff, Disable Device, Search, Open Lock, Move Silently, UMD, Spot, Tumble (1), left overs in Hide and Diplomacy

    Feats (by level): Past Life: Monk (1), Two Weapon Fighting (1), Half-elf Dilettante: Fighter (1), Toughness (3), Power Attack (6), Improved Two Weapon Fighting (9), Stunning Blow (12), Improved Critical: Bludgeoning (15), Greater Two Weapon Fighting (18)
    Feats (monk): Stunning Fist (2), Improved Sunder (8)
    Feats (rogue bonus): Improved Evasion (12), Opportunist (15), Skill Mastery (18)

    I took Opportunist at 12 but in retrospect Improved Evasion may have been a better choice as I died twice in The Twilight Forge quest to the cannons from rolling 1s. I'm not sure if Skill Mastery is a better choice than Crippling Strike (which doesn't seem effective at in epics) or Slipper Mind (which this build may find more useful with its buffed wisdom and iirc there are more relevant will saves in recent end game content).

    Enhancements (Rogue): Assassin III (8), Sneak Attack Accuracy IV (10), Sneak Attack Training IV (10), Damage Boost II (3), Move Silently II (2), Hide II (2), Subtle Backstabbing I (1), Haste Boost IV (10), Extra Action Boost II (6), Wand and Scroll Mastery II (3), Skill Boost I (1)
    Enhancements (Monk): Wisdom I (2), Tortoise Philosophy (1)
    Enhancements (Half-Elf): Versatility III (6), Adaptability: Wisdom (2), Fighter Strength I (2), Strategy: Stunning Blow II (3), Strategy: Sunder I (1), Greater Adaptability: Strength (4), Racial Toughness II (3)

    Missing:
    Versatility IV
    Strategy: Sunder II
    Damage Boost III/IV
    Wand and Scroll Mastery III/IV

    While leveling I prioritised AC over just about everything else. No assassin PrE until level 20 (for assassin III) as acrobat II is much more interesting (extra movement speed, immunity to knockdown and more AC). Prior to level 14 I didn't have any PrE at all (acrobat I is a good option that I should have explored, mechanic I is a good option if lacking gear for traps).

    Epic/self sufficiency Equipment:
    Head: Epic Big Top (colourless: +6 charisma)
    Gloves: Epic Brawling Gloves (yellow: GFL)
    Cloak: Epic Cape of the Roc (yellow: +1 exceptional con)
    Boots: Epic Rock Boots
    Trinket: Pale Lavender Ioun Stone, Litany of the Dead
    Bracers: MinII GS HP Bracers (+45 HP, heavy fort, +5 protection, +6 constitution skills)
    Belt: Epic Spare Hand (blue: toughness)
    Necklace: Shintao Cord
    Goggles: Epic Time Sensing Goggles (yellow, white: exceptional wisdom +1)
    Armour: Epic Frozen Tunic (blue) / Resistance +5/Heal Amp 20%/Radiant Guard
    Ring1: Epic Ring of the Stalker (yellow) / (upgraded) Ring of Lies
    Ring2: Kyosho's Ring (holy burst)
    Weapons: Silver/air/water/air/cold iron slotted Alchemical Handwraps, +5 True Chaos Adamantine Lined Handwraps of Greater Construct Bane, Tharaak Wraps

    Raid/DPS Equipment:
    Head: Undying Gaze
    Gloves: Epic Brawling Gloves (yellow: GFL)
    Cloak: Epic Cape of the Roc (yellow: +1 exceptional con)
    Boots: (unsuppressed) Madstone Boots
    Trinket: Pale Lavender Ioun Stone, Litany of the Dead
    Bracers: MinII GS HP Bracers (+45 HP, heavy fort, +5 protection, +6 constitution skills)
    Belt: Awanahu Belt (-20% threat) / Epic Spare Hand (toughness)
    Necklace: Shintao's Necklace
    Goggles: Tinker's Goggles (Treason)
    Armour: Resistance/Healing Amp/? DT
    Ring1: Epic Ring of the Stalker (yellow) / Whisper Ring (acid burst)
    Ring2: Kyosho's Ring (holy burst)
    Weapons: Silver/Air/Air/Air/+7 slotted Alchemical Handwraps, +5 True Chaos Adamantine Lined Handwraps of Greater Construct Bane, Cold Iron/Earth/Earth/Earth/+7 slotted Alchemical Handwraps

    I've ended up developing 2 unique idea gearsets. The first is more or less what I started with except I've put a bit extra into having a standing UMD of 39 for easy self healing. This includes full skill boost items for traps, multiple extra crowd control options (OID, Guards: Radiance, Earth Grab, Greater Stone Prison), most tactics and close to max DPS. The second set includes Undying Gaze (for raid debuffing) - though this can be swapped if there is obviously a better IS'er, 56% Hate Generation (including subtle I, I think I worked it out right) and basically maximum DPS. Looks good.

    Details:
    Assassinate: 10+18+7 int+2 EMG+2 yugo/ship=39
    Stunning Fist: 10+10+11+5+10+2+2 yugo/ship=50
    Stunning Blow: 10+10+5+14+2+2 yugo/ship=43
    Improved Sunder: 14+6+5+14+1+2 yugo/ship=42
    HP: 20 base +108 rogue +16 monk +200 con +23 toughness +20 racial +5 monk +30 GFL +20 toughness +10 draconic +45 GS +20 ship =20+108+16+200+23+10+30+20+10+45+20=517
    +40 double madstone +40 yugo +20 earth stance = 617 (should manage Horoth on normal ok with healing infusion and an AC gear set)
    UMD: 23+4+1+3+3+4+1=39 standing


    Any feedback welcome
    Last edited by wax_on_wax_off; 09-16-2012 at 12:00 AM.

  2. #2
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    I've got 2 rogues right now ... funny, as this one is kinda between both of mine.


    General comment - I have head slot as a swap for both of mine. On my more pure assassin, I like to slot in an Epic Big Top for occasional UMD boosting and "oh **** dance you bastard" moments with some epic named mobs. In addition, I use a T2 Spyglass so the UMDs add. I lose a slot, but it's a swap item, right? I also don't intend to use the Stalker ring on the assassin, and most of the time I'm sporting a Seeker 6 / Bluff 15 hate.

    On the less pure build (13/6/1 split) I'm going more tactics - Spare Hand, Ring of the Stalker, Undying Gaze ... that'll be paired with an Epic Blademark's Docent as well (and I've taken CE/Improved Trip and won't be taking Stunning Fist). That set up you have chosen is pretty much the best way a monk-like being can get non-weapon Shatter. I'm using Stonedust wraps in the earlier levels, working towards the alchemicals. With the fighter adds, WF adds this one will have very solid tactical options, even minimally geared at cap.



    I like where you're going with the combo build though ... there's no reason a rogue can't bring their own tactics.
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  3. #3
    Community Member kanbeki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post
    T
    Stunning Fist: 10+10+12+5+10+2+2 yugo/ship=51
    Breakdown on this please?
    10 base 10 character level 12 Wis mod? 5 spare hand 10 stunners yugo/ship would only be another +2? what am i missing.
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  4. #4
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kanbeki View Post
    Breakdown on this please?
    10 base 10 character level 12 Wis mod? 5 spare hand 10 stunners yugo/ship would only be another +2? what am i missing.
    Fighter stunning blow enhancement accessed through fighter dilettante

  5. #5
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    For an idea of the sort of AC that this build can enjoy while leveling up I took a screenshot of full self buffed burst AC:



    The part of this AC that isn't sustainable is versatility: armor class (-3). The rest can be sustained for 4 minutes (due to 8 uses of improved uncanny dodge from acrobat II) and for a further 2 minutes if alternating versatility: armor class into the mix (though then the AC is swinging between 65 and 68 AC).

    Burst AC is great for red names. For the rest ~60 works great (which this setup can hit even if you don't have ship buffs/get surprised in the wrong gear or whatever).

    I can get 70% success rate on level 10 shield wands but I've just used a clicky for this screenshot.

    2 AC comes from Acrobat I: Showtime which gives +4 dexterity. This loses some DPS from not using haste boost and just leaving it at rank II so I have Damage Boost IV to make up for it (not completely but it helps). Overall, I think I like the AC/Move speed boost of showtime more than the DPS from haste boost while leveling in almost all situations.

    Not sure if showtime +25% move speed boost stacks with other sources of movement speed though? Does anyone know? How about the +10% given from acrobat II?

  6. #6
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    I've got 2 rogues right now ... funny, as this one is kinda between both of mine.


    General comment - I have head slot as a swap for both of mine. On my more pure assassin, I like to slot in an Epic Big Top for occasional UMD boosting and "oh **** dance you bastard" moments with some epic named mobs. In addition, I use a T2 Spyglass so the UMDs add. I lose a slot, but it's a swap item, right? I also don't intend to use the Stalker ring on the assassin, and most of the time I'm sporting a Seeker 6 / Bluff 15 hate.

    On the less pure build (13/6/1 split) I'm going more tactics - Spare Hand, Ring of the Stalker, Undying Gaze ... that'll be paired with an Epic Blademark's Docent as well (and I've taken CE/Improved Trip and won't be taking Stunning Fist). That set up you have chosen is pretty much the best way a monk-like being can get non-weapon Shatter. I'm using Stonedust wraps in the earlier levels, working towards the alchemicals. With the fighter adds, WF adds this one will have very solid tactical options, even minimally geared at cap.



    I like where you're going with the combo build though ... there's no reason a rogue can't bring their own tactics.
    Unfortunately I don't know the maths to quantify exactly how much DPS I've lost. Compared to a 19/1 horc or halfling build I've given up a small amount of sustained DPS for better tactics (+3 DC) and better burst DPS (I imagine that it'd take until about the 7-8 minute mark for them to catch up DPS wise but that's just a guess). Compared to a tactics build like the one that you described you'll be in front I think 1 DC on stunning fist? (my +3 vs your +2 fighter, +3 WF -1 wisdom). Vs pure assassin I give up a viable assassinate DC and DPS vs low fort mobs for better DPS against high fort mobs (not sure if 50% is the cutoff though), tactics, AC.

    Overall this build comes out in front whichever way I look at it but I'll just have to see how it performs at cap (just hit 16 with 70 self buffed sustained AC).

  7. #7
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    With further forays into maximising AC I've pulled some Icy Raiments so this is a pic of 82 self buffed AC. With outside buffs like Barkskin (+1), Inspire Heroics (+4), Defender of Siberys max aura (+6), Halfling Heroes Companion (+3) I could see getting 96. Oh, I wasn't even in defensive stance and was lacking haste too so another 3 there. Just need 1 more for 100 AC on a strength based rogue! Lol.

    Build is going great, 41 stunning fist DC works wonders in just about everything. Picked up some nice loots from an elite VoD and HoX run (nice XP too). Thaarak Hound wraps are ultimate DPS vs training dummy I can tell you!

    Edit: Swapped to the better pic with 85 AC
    Last edited by wax_on_wax_off; 01-06-2012 at 05:10 AM.

  8. #8
    Community Member OldAquarian's Avatar
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    Minor Points:
    Swap PL feat and toughness, PL feat requires Level 3
    WIS total is 32, not 34

    Question:
    Are the 6 Ap spent in +2 STR worth not getting Versatility IV and skill boost II (or some other 6 points)

    Nice build by the way

  9. #9
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldAquarian View Post
    Minor Points:
    Swap PL feat and toughness, PL feat requires Level 3
    WIS total is 32, not 34

    Question:
    Are the 6 Ap spent in +2 STR worth not getting Versatility IV and skill boost II (or some other 6 points)

    Nice build by the way
    That's Past Life: Monk, not Past Life: Disciple of the Fist, I considered the active feat but it's just ~+1 damage in the end and feats are tight as it is. Maybe it's better than IC:B though? Not sure on that, would be curious if it turned out to be.

    I'm not settled on any AP lineup yet. I'm level 19 but my AP this level will look vastly different to what they will be at 20 as currently I'm still an Acrobat II for the wonderful movespeed, AC and knockdown immunity.

    I'm thinking I may stay Acrobat for a while at 20 to farm challenges during with the AC and move speed will be quite nice (knockdown immunity too the way I hear it with some of the bosses).

    In general, my initial thoughts would be that the +2 strength is worth it as rogues are always a bit on the low side for AB and this build already has phenomenal burst DPS but is lacking in sustained DPS in comparison to its horc or halfling cousins. I'm not sure what the time frame would be for the +1 damage = +5% damage for 20 seconds, 7 times/day. Honestly it won't matter for quite a while as LotD is one of the items that I'm missing so I'll be reallocating those 4 AP until I pull it.

    And thanks, I'm really proud of it, it's certainly fun to play, was fun to finally take into some end game content last night where it performed well I think (elite vod and hox).

  10. #10
    Community Member MeatSheild's Avatar
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    So..... 1d6 base dmg? Not sure I could justify taking that into an epic raid. Yes, the tatcis will be nice for trash, but idc about trash. Maybe an epic midnight greetings slotted with good and an artie in the party.
    1d6 = ave base 3.5 * 1.2 (I think unarmed monk speed is 20%) = 4.2 base
    2d4 = ave base 5
    On your build I belive the greetings is a +7 and the wraps a +5
    Then all you have left is the other tons of math for procs but realy I'd have to know you swings/min to get all that.

    But, with that being said I think the build would be fun so who realy cares about the math lol

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by MeatSheild View Post
    So..... 1d6 base dmg? Not sure I could justify taking that into an epic raid. Yes, the tatcis will be nice for trash, but idc about trash. Maybe an epic midnight greetings slotted with good and an artie in the party.
    1d6 = ave base 3.5 * 1.2 (I think unarmed monk speed is 20%) = 4.2 base
    2d4 = ave base 5
    On your build I belive the greetings is a +7 and the wraps a +5
    Then all you have left is the other tons of math for procs but realy I'd have to know you swings/min to get all that.

    But, with that being said I think the build would be fun so who realy cares about the math lol
    If rogue can get his SA, he can hit mobs with a paper towel and still get decent dps. Also, if we are counting then it should be (1d6+5) * 1.2 against (2d4+7). While with base damage M.Greetings still win 10.2 to 12, let's not forget that SA and any weapon procs applies to every swing. Plus, you can get bursted ToD rings on unarmed toon. If after all this you still cannot justify this as DPS then I don't know who can actually get into those raids.

  12. #12
    The Hatchery whomhead's Avatar
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    I'm curious as to whether you think it would be worthwhile to drop one monk level from your build? As far as I can tell, the only thing you're getting from it is the extra feat. I'm thinking that IC:B would be the one to drop, though I know that some of the DPS nuts on the forums here will disagree with me. But with just 1d6 fists, even on a strength build and even including the extra burst damage from ToD rings (which many people are replacing one with a challenge ring), I still think that the extra sneak attack + an extra rogue feat is better for your build than 5% more 2X crits.

  13. #13
    Community Member OldAquarian's Avatar
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    1 Keep in mind that that 1d6 not only is faster (and the speed means more SA) but has full STR on the offhand and +hit (no offhand penalty)
    2 IC:Blunt also helps proc bursts - I wouldn't want to lose that

  14. #14
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MeatSheild View Post
    So..... 1d6 base dmg? Not sure I could justify taking that into an epic raid. Yes, the tatcis will be nice for trash, but idc about trash. Maybe an epic midnight greetings slotted with good and an artie in the party.
    1d6 = ave base 3.5 * 1.2 (I think unarmed monk speed is 20%) = 4.2 base
    2d4 = ave base 5
    On your build I belive the greetings is a +7 and the wraps a +5
    Then all you have left is the other tons of math for procs but realy I'd have to know you swings/min to get all that.

    But, with that being said I think the build would be fun so who realy cares about the math lol
    You would have a valid point if it wasn't for the fact that the game works quite differently from what you imagine.

    Read up on Vanshilar's Attack Speed Index and Formulae for details on how handwraps have 10% faster attack speed than other TWF'ing choices. To see that put into practice, look at The Black Lotus build which has inspired this build.

    The conclusion is that I can expect more DPS vs high fortification enemies than a pure rogue (not sure if the cut off is 50% or higher though). Against 0% fort mobs I've usually got better DPS too as they are helpless

    Quote Originally Posted by whomhead View Post
    I'm curious as to whether you think it would be worthwhile to drop one monk level from your build? As far as I can tell, the only thing you're getting from it is the extra feat. I'm thinking that IC:B would be the one to drop, though I know that some of the DPS nuts on the forums here will disagree with me. But with just 1d6 fists, even on a strength build and even including the extra burst damage from ToD rings (which many people are replacing one with a challenge ring), I still think that the extra sneak attack + an extra rogue feat is better for your build than 5% more 2X crits.
    This is a valid point and one that I may have investigated. Monk 2 also gives me +7 HP, +1 wisdom (for an extra tier), meditation, +6 concentration as a class skill ... If anyone wants to do the maths on the pure DPS of +1d6 sneak attack vs 5% more criticals I'd be curious to see how it plays out with maximum gear. Honestly I'd imagine that with a holy bursted ToD ring that the IC:B would win out.

    Thanks for the feedback guys, great to have a few people looking at the build

  15. #15
    Community Member destiny4405's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post
    The conclusion is that I can expect more DPS vs high fortification enemies than a pure rogue (not sure if the cut off is 50% or higher though).
    from some calcs i've run for 19/1 split, the breaking point is 30% fort. also, while unarmed is a bit behind on 0% fort mobs unbuffed, they are almost the same when haste and haste boost is in effect.
    Jesus saves. Everyone else rounds to nearest 5%.

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  16. #16
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by destiny4405 View Post
    from some calcs i've run for 19/1 split, the breaking point is 30% fort. also, while unarmed is a bit behind on 0% fort mobs unbuffed, they are almost the same when haste and haste boost is in effect.
    Great news for me then. I'd assume that this is with max DPS gear as well which I should have close to only shortly after hitting level 20 (will still be missing lotd but oh well).

    Before level 20 the unarmed build is vastly superior. Upon hitting level 20 when competing with capstone the unarmed build might be a bit behind but add gear and you're ok again.

    Do you have the calcs that you used? Only considering fort or resistance as well? Considering AB?

  17. #17
    Community Member destiny4405's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post
    Do you have the calcs that you used? Only considering fort or resistance as well? Considering AB?
    just considered fort and assumed holy of greater bane wep for both. also some gear difference.

    might need to check it again if im gonna post it.
    Jesus saves. Everyone else rounds to nearest 5%.

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  18. #18
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by destiny4405 View Post
    just considered fort and assumed holy of greater bane wep for both. also some gear difference.

    might need to check it again if im gonna post it.
    I'll look forward to it!

    So I was just thinking about heading into elite Reaver's Refuge for BB and was wondering if I'd have the reflex save for the traps in monastery and the massive fire damage at the end of etk.

    Turns out I can self buff my reflex save to 53 and I just wanted to share it for all those people that say that strength based rogues can't get decent reflex saves:



    Edit: Oh, and I added the 85 AC screenshot just for laughs.

  19. #19
    The Hatchery whomhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post
    This is a valid point and one that I may have investigated. Monk 2 also gives me +7 HP, +1 wisdom (for an extra tier), meditation, +6 concentration as a class skill ... If anyone wants to do the maths on the pure DPS of +1d6 sneak attack vs 5% more criticals I'd be curious to see how it plays out with maximum gear. Honestly I'd imagine that with a holy bursted ToD ring that the IC:B would win out.

    Thanks for the feedback guys, great to have a few people looking at the build
    A quick calculation tells me that the sneak attack is probably more damage than IC:B, but the difference isn't huge.

    Your typical damage mod, which will depend greatly on how buffed you are, is going to be 1d6 + 15 (from 40 strength) + 5 wraps + 5 power attack + 2 ship + 2 Shintao = 30-35 base damage per swing. Then you have a holy burst ring for 2d6 burst damage = 7 damage per crit. That's 40 extra damage per crit (rounded up from 39.5 because i'm lazy) with 12 extra damage from seeker +6 on the ring of the stalker = 52 damage per crit. With an 80% chance of an off-hand attack, that comes to 93.6 extra damage on a crit.

    IC:B will get you 5 extra crits out of 100 attacks, so 93.6 x 5 = 468 damage per 100 attacks from IC:B.

    Sneak attack is easier, sort of. Because I'm lazy, as I already said, I'm just going to assume that you're doing everything properly on your rogue and you are always getting your sneak attacks. I think this is valid since any fortification should reduce crits in the same proportion as it does sneak attack. Anyway, 1d6 = 3.5 damage with an 80% off-hand chance = 6.3 damage.

    You will get that on 95 out of 100 attacks, so 6.3 x 95 = 598.5 from 19th level rogue.

    So there you have it. Obviously any time where you aren't getting sneak attacks but are getting crits will favor IC:B, as will any extra damage buffs such as bard songs and/or damage boost. But on the balance I see the extra rogue level probably being slightly ahead of the monk level in terms of damage. You'll also get a few extra skills and +1 assassinate DC, though I'm not sure how consequential those things are.

    In the grand scheme of things, this is probably a less than 1% swing in damage output either way, so is really not a major factor in the build, and either way will certainly kick some serious tail. But you asked for a calculation, and now you have it!

  20. #20
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whomhead View Post
    A quick calculation tells me that the sneak attack is probably more damage than IC:B, but the difference isn't huge.

    Your typical damage mod, which will depend greatly on how buffed you are, is going to be 1d6 + 15 (from 40 strength) + 5 wraps + 5 power attack + 2 ship + 2 Shintao = 30-35 base damage per swing. Then you have a holy burst ring for 2d6 burst damage = 7 damage per crit. That's 40 extra damage per crit (rounded up from 39.5 because i'm lazy) with 12 extra damage from seeker +6 on the ring of the stalker = 52 damage per crit. With an 80% chance of an off-hand attack, that comes to 93.6 extra damage on a crit.

    IC:B will get you 5 extra crits out of 100 attacks, so 93.6 x 5 = 468 damage per 100 attacks from IC:B.

    Sneak attack is easier, sort of. Because I'm lazy, as I already said, I'm just going to assume that you're doing everything properly on your rogue and you are always getting your sneak attacks. I think this is valid since any fortification should reduce crits in the same proportion as it does sneak attack. Anyway, 1d6 = 3.5 damage with an 80% off-hand chance = 6.3 damage.

    You will get that on 95 out of 100 attacks, so 6.3 x 95 = 598.5 from 19th level rogue.

    So there you have it. Obviously any time where you aren't getting sneak attacks but are getting crits will favor IC:B, as will any extra damage buffs such as bard songs and/or damage boost. But on the balance I see the extra rogue level probably being slightly ahead of the monk level in terms of damage. You'll also get a few extra skills and +1 assassinate DC, though I'm not sure how consequential those things are.

    In the grand scheme of things, this is probably a less than 1% swing in damage output either way, so is really not a major factor in the build, and either way will certainly kick some serious tail. But you asked for a calculation, and now you have it!
    Nice and neat, I like it. However, holy burst gives +3d6 on a crit and we can also include the +1d10 from shocking burst on the alchemic wraps. The maths looks a bit wonky in the way that you've included offhand attacks so I'm going to cut that out.

    61*.05=3.05 or 10.52 DPS vs 3.5*.95=3.325 or 11.47 DPS. So yeah, less than 1 damage per second the difference. On balance, I'd say the additional damage that IC:B offers when you do have aggro (which is usually just as long as it takes to get a stunning fist off) makes the 2 monk splash better. The other reason I like the 2 monk splash is that it gives me +1 DC on stunning fist when combined with adaptability: wisdom. +1 to all saves, +1 AC, +6 ranks in concentration and 7 HP doesn't hurt either. Still, I do miss the assassinate DC and skill mastery. Either is a good option I guess.

    Did an elite tour of yugoloth favour quests this evening which was the builds first foray into proper end game content (besides DD/IQ elites). Topped the kill counts in every quest usually by a huge margin (2:1 to 4:1). Bit squishy at the moment as I haven't crafted my MinII bracers yet. Missing not having the gear from U12 particularly as the mobs in amrath on elite have quite high fort saves but stunning fist was still working well enough though I did have to combine it with IS. SB was pretty useless.

    Pretty huge change switching from Acrobat II to Assassin III, the DPS feels off the charts, (yo). I can't wait to get a ToD ring to holy burst.

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