Results 1 to 19 of 19
  1. #1
    Founder Riggs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    3,460

    Default Add half monk level to weapon damage

    Like old school D&D.

    It would be nice to have some kind of reason to equip a weapon at some point on a monk. Also you would think that a class that trains how to fight all their life, including with weapons, would do more damage with them...at least moderately comparable to no weapons at all.

    And compared to carrying around kamas for 3 years and never using them.

    It might be too powerful to have it for all weapons, it is certainly more powerful than say fighter weapon specialization, but given that handwraps would still be better, 'overpowered' is a relative term. It would be like giving a fighter +10 damage on their fists - sure it is a lot, but no one is going to fight with fists unless a monk anyway.

    It could be say +1 damage per 3 levels maybe, would still be somewhat useful at least.

  2. #2
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Brisbane, Australia
    Posts
    7,870

    Unhappy

    Quote Originally Posted by Riggs View Post
    Like old school D&D.

    It would be nice to have some kind of reason to equip a weapon at some point on a monk. Also you would think that a class that trains how to fight all their life, including with weapons, would do more damage with them...at least moderately comparable to no weapons at all.

    And compared to carrying around kamas for 3 years and never using them.

    It might be too powerful to have it for all weapons, it is certainly more powerful than say fighter weapon specialization, but given that handwraps would still be better, 'overpowered' is a relative term. It would be like giving a fighter +10 damage on their fists - sure it is a lot, but no one is going to fight with fists unless a monk anyway.

    It could be say +1 damage per 3 levels maybe, would still be somewhat useful at least.
    Not a bad idea.

    What is the list of monk weapons?

    Off the top of my head this couldn't apply to bows (which are monk weapons with the zen archery feat)naw that would be way OP. In that case though how could you distinguish between what weapons it applied to and which it didn't?

    FYI, a fighter using handwraps is a force to be reckoned with assuming you have at least 1 monk level (same applies to ranger or rogue too).

  3. #3
    Community Member Redicular's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Over there
    Posts
    259

    Default

    overpowered

    +10 dmg is a HUGE amount, stacking +10 damage is crazy, you'd just flip the board from monks 99% of the time use handwraps to monks 99% of the time use kamas(shortswords on ninjas) unless the ability works on them as well

    fists at 20: 2d10 avg 11
    kama at 20 w/ ability: 1d6+10 avg 13.5
    with the added bonuses of seperate effects on each hand and access to two weapon blocking and defense

    to really drive the point home, the weakest weapon in game is the shuriken(1d2), shuriken with ability, 11.5 average

    kamas need help(acrobat/half-orc help staves) but they shouldn't be the top option over fists, that's what tempest rangers exist for.

    also broken on monk splashes(unless we're talking a late level automatic feat) a stacking damage increase would just add to the already huge list of things beating down class capstones

    @waxon:
    monk weapons:
    fists: 1d6~2d10 20/x2
    kamas: 1d6 20/x2
    q-staff: 1d6 20/x2
    shuriken: 1d2 20/x2
    shortsword(ninjas) 1d6 19-20/x2
    longsword(Whirling steel strike) 1d8 19-20/x2
    shortbow(zen archery) 1d6 20/x3
    longbow(zen archery) 1d8 20/x3
    Last edited by Redicular; 12-01-2011 at 03:40 AM.
    Rule one: never act incautiously when confronting a little bald wrinkly smiling old man. ~ Terry Pratchett

  4. #4
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Brisbane, Australia
    Posts
    7,870

    Default

    Shortswords and Kamas are way more than 10 points of damage behind wraps. As you point out, giving them +10 damage increases the damage up to about the same as handwraps but you still have to contend with the 10% boosted attack speed on handwraps and the 100% strength modifier to offhand attacks.

    Still, I'd be fine with just +1 damage every 3 levels, removes the possibility of even considering another weapon. Perhaps +1 damage every 6 levels for ranged weapons.

  5. #5
    Community Member Battery's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    582

    Default

    the biggest thing is putting other weapons up close to wraps wold mean easier access to DR breakers, bane and vorpal type weapons. 1 every 3 levels sounds pretty fair plus 1 added to capstone for a total of +7 maybe.
    "Those who believe in telekinetics raise my hand"-Kurt Vonnegut

  6. #6
    Founder Aesop's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    In the great state of Confusion
    Posts
    8,540

    Default

    How about instead have the base damage of the centered weapons increased by 1 at monk 12 when monks Unarmed damage is doubled from lvl 1. This would be similar to how Point Blank Shot increases the Base Damage Die while targets are within range.


    So at Monk 12

    Kama & Q-Staff 2d6 20/x2
    Shuriken 2d2 20/x2

    With requisite Feats:

    Short Bow 2d6 20/x3
    Short Sword 2d6 19-20/x2
    Long Bow 2d8 20/x3
    Long Sword 2d8 19-20/x3


    Fists would advance as normal


    Alternately if this is too much too soon then make it level 16 instead.

    Fists have a number advantages beyond just their high base damage though. Including faster attacks, full off hand Str and Stunning Fist and other Fist only abilities.


    As another though each time Monk Unarmed Damage increases there could be a +1 damage for other Monk Weapons so levels 4 8 12 16 20 this is only +5 damage in total but may be a useful benefit that would not be over powered and would allow for some more effective variations on the Monk theme

    Aesop
    Rule 1: Don't sweat the small stuff
    Rule 2: Its all small stuff
    Rule 3: People are stupid. You, me everyone... expect it
    more rules to come in a different sig

  7. #7
    Founder Riggs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    3,460

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post
    Not a bad idea.

    What is the list of monk weapons?

    Off the top of my head this couldn't apply to bows (which are monk weapons with the zen archery feat)naw that would be way OP. In that case though how could you distinguish between what weapons it applied to and which it didn't?

    FYI, a fighter using handwraps is a force to be reckoned with assuming you have at least 1 monk level (same applies to ranger or rogue too).
    Kama/staff/shuriken for centered weapons - others are 'proficient', but irrelevant as they lose centered bonus, which is dumb. Sai/dagger should be a monk centered weapon, club/tonfa, spear(yay spear!).

    It would only be 'way overpowered' if monks did more damage with it, except for the small fact that handwraps at cap do 2d10 or 2d12, AND get a flurry speed bonus over any weapons. All the damage bonus for weapons would do is make a kama only 65-70% as useful as handwraps as opposed to now where they are like 30-40% as useful.

    I had a ftr/monk for a while too, the damage was nice, but not really all that different than a pure monk, just without all the other monk benefits.

  8. #8
    Founder Riggs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    3,460

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Redicular View Post
    overpowered

    +10 dmg is a HUGE amount, stacking +10 damage is crazy, you'd just flip the board from monks 99% of the time use handwraps to monks 99% of the time use kamas(shortswords on ninjas) unless the ability works on them as well

    fists at 20: 2d10 avg 11
    kama at 20 w/ ability: 1d6+10 avg 13.5
    with the added bonuses of seperate effects on each hand and access to two weapon blocking and defense
    As above, all the weapon damage would do is bring weapons to near par - the 11 damage vs 13.5 completely ignores the 15% flurry bonus, double Tod ring damage bonus(in general 3d6 +x2 bursting), and most long term monks will probably TR at least once for the 2d12+1 damage - average 14.

    No one would ever use kamas 99% of the time even with a +10 damage bonus, but they might be convinced to use them SOME of the time. I do more damage on zombies with a 10dr vs blunt using fists than even using kamas - which is fairly silly.

    And yeah shuriken would do more damage...so? Will shuriken become some OP ranged monster build? No.

  9. #9
    Founder Riggs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    3,460

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Battery View Post
    the biggest thing is putting other weapons up close to wraps wold mean easier access to DR breakers, bane and vorpal type weapons. 1 every 3 levels sounds pretty fair plus 1 added to capstone for a total of +7 maybe.
    Yeah +7 for 20 monk levels is not too bad.

    A monk picking up a 6 foot staff to do a fifth of the damage they would bare handed is just plain silly.

  10. #10
    Founder Riggs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    3,460

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aesop View Post
    How about instead have the base damage of the centered weapons increased by 1 at monk 12 when monks Unarmed damage is doubled from lvl 1. This would be similar to how Point Blank Shot increases the Base Damage Die while targets are within range.

    ...
    Aesop
    Problem is it would probably be more complicated to program, and really not add anything useful - +3.5/4.5 average damage when fists do 10 more base damage anyway still does nothing.

    If I have the choice of doing triple damage with fists, the option to only do double damage with fists still wont convince me to stop using fists.

  11. #11
    Community Member Luis_Velderve's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Sembia now all over the place
    Posts
    345

    Default

    this

    Quote Originally Posted by Riggs View Post
    Kama/staff/shuriken for centered weapons - others are 'proficient', but irrelevant as they lose centered bonus, which is dumb. Sai/dagger should be a monk centered weapon, club/tonfa, spear(yay spear!)..
    Dev read threads, thats how LS, LB and SS ended being ki weapons.

    I have a doubt. Is the 12ftr/8monk a common build or the lack of TOD kills this split? Kensai/Ninja XD
    Quote Originally Posted by justagame View Post
    I assume you're joking.

    (But just in case you're not, posts like this don't help, don't pretend to speak for others.)

  12. #12
    Community Member Rhysem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    448

    Default

    Having something to bring unloved weapons into the viable range, especially for monks who are nearly wraps-or-nothing would be really nice. It means deviating from the standard dnd 3.0/3.5 but that's fine, Turbine has deviated elsewhere to good effect (skill list shortening, intim to pallies, AP/prestige class implementation).

  13. #13
    Community Member Redicular's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Over there
    Posts
    259

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Riggs View Post
    Problem is it would probably be more complicated to program, and really not add anything useful - +3.5/4.5 average damage when fists do 10 more base damage anyway still does nothing.

    If I have the choice of doing triple damage with fists, the option to only do double damage with fists still wont convince me to stop using fists.
    this is a key point, mmo players by nature tend to be min/maxers. efficiency trumps everything in a great many peoples eyes. I remember a time when you weren't an end-game ready monk unless you had kamas, vorpal kamas to be specific, because vorpaling was more efficient than any other damage method on mobs it worked on.*

    if fists are even slightly better, every monk will have 1~2 pairs of kamas, sets to deal with whatever blunt resistant end-game foes there are. if kamas are even slightly better than fists, handwraps will only come out for slashing resist(particularly given all the problems inherent to handwraps**)

    on another point, people have repeatedly brought up the flurry of blows feat as why handwraps would remain king even if by a smaller margin. personally I feel this undercuts the benefit of the utility of having two actual weapons. if a handwrap monk wants greater parrying, he's giving up pure good, destruction, banishing, and a whole host of other good suffixes... oh wait, greater parrying doesn't exist on handwraps. if a handwrap monk wants parrying he's giving up other suffixes. a dual weapon monk isn't making nearly the same sacrifice. so on a pure dps side handwraps remain supreme, but if pure dps is all your monk brings to the table, you are, I'm sad to say, doinitwrong.

    but just to be clear, i was NOT against a boost to kama damage, i was against 1/2 monk level being the boost. the +5s and +7s that have been thrown around since my last post I can emphatically get behind. Though I believe in the long run those won't have any effect on monk, ranger/monk, paladin/monk, rogue/monk, and fighter/monk would all see good use from them.

    I sign a LOW LEVEL(2-6 monk levels) trait that improves ki weapon damage within reason


    *I will believe until my dying day, or a dev proves me wrong, the vorpal kama situation was what finally pushed devs over the edge into nerfing the ever-loving hell out of vorpal, seeing players willing to deal 1/3 as much pre-modifier damage just for one suffix made it completely clear something was very wrong

    ** no greensteel, no exceptional stats on TOD rings, a list of bugs longer than my list of creditors, the pure coding nightmare of a weapon that's not a weapon(handwraps are coded as a buff not a weapon, its why you can see characters handwrap effects on in-game examine), blunt damage, missing prefixes/suffixes, horrific crit profile, lack of DR breakers, etc, etc, etc.
    Rule one: never act incautiously when confronting a little bald wrinkly smiling old man. ~ Terry Pratchett

  14. #14
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Brisbane, Australia
    Posts
    7,870

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Luis_Velderve View Post
    this



    Dev read threads, thats how LS, LB and SS ended being ki weapons.

    I have a doubt. Is the 12ftr/8monk a common build or the lack of TOD kills this split? Kensai/Ninja XD
    It was much more common than it now is. Kensei II power surge (+8 strength) makes up for lack of ToD. These days however 12 monk is preferable for the 15% DR and +1 crit multiplier than Earth 3 gives.

    Currently there are only 2 viable weapons for a monk: Handwraps and Longbow. Everything else is varying degrees of gimpness from a DPS perspective but can have their uses still for particular applications (on critical affects, greensteel weapon slotting etc). It would certainly be nice to have a little variety.

  15. #15
    Community Member Redicular's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Over there
    Posts
    259

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Luis_Velderve View Post
    I have a doubt. Is the 12ftr/8monk a common build or the lack of TOD kills this split? Kensai/Ninja XD
    wouldn't say "common" but there is nothing inherently gimp about the build, 1d10 is still stronger than many 1hand weapons and kensai has effects built in to support ftr/monk, powersurge is quite strong as well. Its probably worse than a 20 monk or a 18/2 or 20 ftr in terms of dps, but only to a calculator, nothing eyes will notice. Its a worthwhile character build I'd invite to epic raids.
    Rule one: never act incautiously when confronting a little bald wrinkly smiling old man. ~ Terry Pratchett

  16. #16
    Founder Aesop's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    In the great state of Confusion
    Posts
    8,540

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Riggs View Post
    Problem is it would probably be more complicated to program, and really not add anything useful - +3.5/4.5 average damage when fists do 10 more base damage anyway still does nothing.

    If I have the choice of doing triple damage with fists, the option to only do double damage with fists still wont convince me to stop using fists.
    Then add another +1 at lvl 20.

    As for complicated... I don't think it would be honestly. They already have it working within certain distances so having it work for centered only shouldn't be an issue.


    Could be interesting with a Long Sword Monk in Earth Stance.

    Not that this would make weapons superior to unarmed (in general) but I'm not sure that was ever the goal...

    Aesop
    Rule 1: Don't sweat the small stuff
    Rule 2: Its all small stuff
    Rule 3: People are stupid. You, me everyone... expect it
    more rules to come in a different sig

  17. #17
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    North Cackalacky
    Posts
    9,593

    Default

    I think maybe as an enhancement line, similar to racial enhancements for weapons. Kama, qstaff and shuriken boosts ... but you pay for.
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  18. #18
    Founder Riggs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    3,460

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    I think maybe as an enhancement line, similar to racial enhancements for weapons. Kama, qstaff and shuriken boosts ... but you pay for.
    That could work as long as it was fairly cheap.

    However it would be a bit like saying to a fighter "Well you can use a sword or an axe. The sword does over double the damage of the axe - but if you spend AP the axe damage will increase to the point it is only 80% as good as the sword rather than 40%"

    The fact that it would cost AP to still do less damage with a weapon would be a concern. Better than nothing I guess, but not ideal.

  19. #19
    Community Member Ausdoerrt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    2,014

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhysem View Post
    Having something to bring unloved weapons into the viable range, especially for monks who are nearly wraps-or-nothing would be really nice. It means deviating from the standard dnd 3.0/3.5 but that's fine, Turbine has deviated elsewhere to good effect (skill list shortening, intim to pallies, AP/prestige class implementation).
    What's really needed though is not a damage boost but a speed boost to match monk attack speed wielding or double-wielding monk weapons to that of unarmed speed. In PnP 3.5 Flurry worked with all monk weapons (not to mention with TWF as well), so their uselessness in DDO is actually a "deviation" on the part of Turbine.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload