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  1. #1
    Community Member Arsont's Avatar
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    Default Ranged tank possibility-Critique?

    Greetings.I've been asked by a couple people what I would make if I were to create a ranged tank with my main, Arsont (Who will, in theory, have access to Completionist). While I'm fond of the 12/6/2 monk/ranger/fighter split, I feel the following build would be a bit better for dedicated tanking. Since ranged builds seem to be FOTM since the change to 10k Stars, figured I'd post my variant.

    And so, I present The Fad
    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.09.02
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    Level 20 Lawful Neutral Half-Elf Male
    (7 Fighter \ 7 Monk \ 6 Ranger) 
    Hit Points: 376
    Spell Points: 305 
    BAB: 18\18\23\28\28
    Fortitude: 20
    Reflex: 17
    Will: 15
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
    (36 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
    Strength             15                    24
    Dexterity            16                    21
    Constitution         14                    20
    Intelligence         10                    15
    Wisdom               16                    22
    Charisma              8                    12
    
    Tomes Used
    +2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
    +3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 11
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                     Base Skills         Modified Skills
    Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
    Balance               3                    17
    Bluff                -1                     3
    Concentration         2                    19
    Diplomacy            -1                     3
    Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
    Haggle               -1                     3
    Heal                  3                     8
    Hide                  3                     9
    Intimidate            3                    30
    Jump                  2                    18
    Listen                3                     8
    Move Silently         3                     7
    Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
    Perform              n/a                    n/a
    Repair                0                     4
    Search                0                     4
    Spot                  3                    14
    Swim                  2                     9
    Tumble                n/a                  10
    Use Magic Device      1                    14
    
    Level 1 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Half-Elf Dilettante) Half-Elf Dilettante: Barbarian
    Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Barbarian
    Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Bard
    Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Cleric
    Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Favored Soul
    Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
    Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Monk
    Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Paladin
    Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Ranger
    Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Rogue
    Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Sorcerer
    Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Wizard
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Point Blank Shot
    Feat: (Selected) Zen Archery
    
    
    Level 2 (Monk)
    Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness
    
    
    Level 3 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead
    Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Ranged Weapons
    
    
    Level 4 (Monk)
    Feat: (Monk Bonus) Stunning Fist
    
    
    Level 5 (Ranger)
    
    
    Level 6 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Selected) Completionist
    
    
    Level 7 (Ranger)
    
    
    Level 8 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider
    
    
    Level 9 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Selected) Past Life: Arcane Prodigy
    
    Level 10 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Precise Shot
    
    
    Level 11 (Fighter)
    
    
    Level 12 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Precise Shot
    
    
    Level 13 (Fighter)
    
    
    Level 14 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Ranged Weapons
    
    
    Level 15 (Monk)
    Feat: (Selected) Dodge
    Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Inevitable Dominion: Fists of Darkness
    
    
    Level 16 (Monk)
    
    
    Level 17 (Monk)
    
    
    Level 18 (Monk)
    Feat: (Monk Bonus) Combat Expertise
    Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
    
    
    Level 19 (Monk)
    
    
    Level 20 (Fighter)
    Enhancement: Fighter Armor Class Boost I
    Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
    Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost II
    Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost III
    Enhancement: Ranger Sprint Boost I
    Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Acid Arrows
    Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Explosive Arrows
    Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Force Arrows
    Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Slaying Arrows
    Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Terror Arrows
    Enhancement: Fighter Stalwart Defender I
    Enhancement: Human Adaptability Constitution I
    Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
    Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
    Enhancement: Human Versatility I
    Enhancement: Human Versatility II
    Enhancement: Static Charge
    Enhancement: Ten Thousand Stars
    Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise I
    Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise II
    Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery I
    Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery II
    Enhancement: Monk Ninja Spy I
    Enhancement: Adept of Wind
    Enhancement: Adept of Rock
    Enhancement: Adept of Rain
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
    Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +2 Arrows
    Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +3 Arrows
    Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +4 Arrows
    Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +5 Arrows
    Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer I
    Enhancement: Improved Intimidate I
    Enhancement: Improved Intimidate II
    Enhancement: Improved Jump I
    Enhancement: Improved Jump II
    Enhancement: Improved Tumble I
    Enhancement: Improved Tumble II
    Enhancement: Half-Elf Barbarian Constitution I
    Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
    Enhancement: Monk Wisdom I
    Enhancement: Monk Wisdom II
    Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
    Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II
    I'd probably take Cleric dilly for leveling purposes, then swap to Barb once I needed the con bracket. I'd be swapping out FE:Undead for Construct around 16 or so. Enhancements can be shuffled around as needed based on the gear/tomes available to you. Some of the feats (Namely, CE, PA and GTWF) are flexible as well. Stunning Fist is thrown in for a CC option, but I may swap for barb PL or a second Toughness if I decide against running epics.

    As I noted, this would be the build -I- would do for my multi-TR main.
    For a 32 point build:
    -Drop Completionist. Swap in a second Toughness
    -Drop strength to 13, wisdom to 15 and bump up int to 11.
    This will result in slightly less AC and -1 str bracket, but will be easier for anyone without +3 tomes (I only included a +3 int tome for now in my version).

    Provided my numbers are correct, this build will be looking at mid 700 hp in earth and Stalwart stance, with 95 raid buffed AC. Saves will be 38/35/36 with just GH and ship buffs. Not amazing, but passable. If I can get a +3 con tome, I'll swap dilly to Paladin instead to buff the saves a bit. Also, Stunning fist will be mid 40's (Varies based on stance, exact wisdom, PL, etc...) for workable epic CC.

    This iteration is a pretty even str/wis split...I may LR and drop str a bit to bump wisdom, depending on how great of an effect 10k Stars has on dps compared to str bonus.

    Anyhow. Any suggestions or improvements are greatly appreciated. If there's something I need to clarify, I'll gladly provide what insight I can.
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  2. #2
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Nice build. I can't see any flaws in particular. Maybe take completionist feat earlier. Certainly looks fun. Can't wait to see the completed character.

  3. #3
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Why AC? In the game there is very little value to AC right now. That might change, but the expense never really justifies the investment for AC. The dodge feat for example gives very little. What is your intimidate going to be? 75+? If you want to tank LOB which is where a ranged tank would be most useful you basically need a high intimidate score. Completionist is a nice concept, but skill focus intimidate, pally past life, etc are better. Your right your hp are low so lose some of that ac gear and stat distribution and focus and build for hp and healing amp. Your level split is a decent one for this concept, but tweak the build if you really want to do range tanking.. Oh and go shintao 1 you get a bonus to your intimidate and it is more useful then dark monk 1.
    Last edited by maddmatt70; 12-01-2011 at 11:19 AM.
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

  4. #4
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    There's absolutely no way you can generate the hate with this build necessary to hold aggro. Ranged damage remains inferior to melee damage.
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  5. #5
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    There's absolutely no way you can generate the hate with this build necessary to hold aggro. Ranged damage remains inferior to melee damage.
    Hmm.. Is this why everyone tells my rangers to not use manyshot right away in ToD and VoD?

    Because the few times I did use manyshot early in those fights, I ALWAYS took aggro.
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  6. #6
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    You're not planning on kiting are you? Kind of defeats the purpose of tanking...

    And if you're standing still, and he's right in your face, your AC will take a hit if you have a bow out... You're probably just going to switch to melee at that point, right?

    Or no? Do yourself as using ranged most of the time while tanking or just manyshot and then switching to melee?
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  7. #7
    Community Member dkyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Hmm.. Is this why everyone tells my rangers to not use manyshot right away in ToD and VoD?

    Because the few times I did use manyshot early in those fights, I ALWAYS took aggro.
    Steal aggro, sure. But the tank needs to keep it. Outside of those 20 seconds per 2 minutes, Ranged DPS may not be enough to keep aggro, and threat gear is usually (maybe always? not sure) melee only.

  8. #8
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    There's absolutely no way you can generate the hate with this build necessary to hold aggro. Ranged damage remains inferior to melee damage.
    Really a misconception these days. To be honest on a melee tank you can get away with hardly meleeing at all and still keep aggro practically the whole time. Due to a lack of tanks out there in the crew I run with we have had to trot out one tank for epic lob at times. With the mournlands debuff which takes you down to low hit points at some point you have to either sit there and block it out until the mournland is gone or the other techinque we have to do is block and intimidate back the aggro with the off tanks swinging light while the main tanks hp is way down until the mournland debuff disappears. The second option although hardly optimal and fairly ugly works. If the range tank is having trouble keeping aggro which I actually think if played well will not be much of an issue throughout much of the tanking content out there they can resort to intimidating and asking the off tanks to swing light.

    Really this build must have at least a 75 intimidate or reroll OP otherwise this is not going to cut it..
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  9. #9
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkyle View Post
    Steal aggro, sure. But the tank needs to keep it. Outside of those 20 seconds per 2 minutes, Ranged DPS may not be enough to keep aggro, and threat gear is usually (maybe always? not sure) melee only.
    Do not forgot the 1000 stars which is for another time frame and I doubt the melee are pulling aggro during 1000 stars.
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

  10. #10
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkyle View Post
    and threat gear is usually (maybe always? not sure) melee only.
    That's the important part... Does Stalwart stance give hate bonuses to ranged? Is there any hate gear that gives bonuses to ranged?
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  11. #11
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Why AC? In the game there is very little value to AC right now. That might change, but the expense never really justifies the investment for AC. The dodge feat for example gives very little. What is your intimidate going to be? 75+? If you want to tank LOB which is where a ranged tank would be most useful you basically need a high intimidate score. Completionist is a nice concept, but skill focus intimidate, pally past life, etc are better. Your right your hp are low so lose some of that ac gear and stat distribution and focus and build for hp and healing amp. Your level split is a decent one for this concept, but tweak the build if you really want to do range tanking.. Oh and go shintao 1 you get a bonus to your intimidate and it is more useful then dark monk 1.
    AC is useful in LoB at least according to my guildy (95+ required though?)
    Dodge is for ninja-spy which gives shadow fade which is one of the best defensive buffs in the game.
    Completionist gives +3 intimidate, I hardly see how any other feat is better.
    Arsont is not a ranged only player, he will swap between ranged and melee as appropriate.
    700 HP is fine.
    If you consider an archer who actually wants aggro and uses anathema or whatever during manyshot, that's a hell of a headstart on the aggro.

  12. #12
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post
    AC is useful in LoB at least according to my guildy (95+ required though?)
    Dodge is for ninja-spy which gives shadow fade which is one of the best defensive buffs in the game.
    Completionist gives +3 intimidate, I hardly see how any other feat is better.
    Arsont is not a ranged only player, he will swap between ranged and melee as appropriate.
    700 HP is fine.
    If you consider an archer who actually wants aggro and uses anathema or whatever during manyshot, that's a hell of a headstart on the aggro.
    Yeah Ac on normal and hard, but make a character for epic. Shadow fade is although nice not as nice as intimidate and earth grasp. You have me on completionist I forgot about the +2 for skills in addition to +2 for all stats. I disagree with your range/melee ratio and think the more range the better in Lob so I would range non manyshot when LOB is away from the main tank and then manyshot/10000k stars when the Lob is up on you. 700 hp is absolutely not fine so meh. He will lose aggro this is not a vacumm there is no such thing as perfect aggro retention. You have to have a back-up plan which intimidate is all about. I am just going to say that I have an ac tank and a DOS and a Stalwart and can tell you there is not such thing as perfect aggro retention. Bah what the heck are you talking about play a tank..
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  13. #13
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Yeah Ac on normal and hard, but make a character for epic. Shadow fade is although nice not as nice as intimidate and earth grasp. You have me on completionist I forgot about the +2 for skills in addition to +2 for all stats. I disagree with your range/melee ratio and think the more range the better in Lob so I would range non manyshot when LOB is away from the main tank and then manyshot/10000k stars when the Lob is up on you. 700 hp is absolutely not fine so meh. He will lose aggro this is not a vacumm there is no such thing as perfect aggro retention. You have to have a back-up plan which intimidate is all about. I am just going to say that I have an ac tank and a DOS and a Stalwart and can tell you there is not such thing as perfect aggro retention. Bah what the heck are you talking about play a tank..
    Oh, I guess we should rename all threads related to tanks: Maddmatt, help please?

    I never made any statements of the value of intimidate or aggro I was just setting your facts straight.

    There is no way in hell that light side is better than dark for a tank, 25% incorporeality is a massive boost to survivability.

    I'm not sure what Arsont's intimidate score will be, best to let him comment on it himself before you make sweeping comments on the overall usefulness of the character.

    The plinking with bow at range when you could be manyshotting/10k starring and saving them for when you could be building melee hate seems weird to me but you're the pro right?

  14. #14
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post
    Oh, I guess we should rename all threads related to tanks: Maddmatt, help please?

    I never made any statements of the value of intimidate or aggro I was just setting your facts straight.

    There is no way in hell that light side is better than dark for a tank, 25% incorporeality is a massive boost to survivability.
    I'm not sure what Arsont's intimidate score will be, best to let him comment on it himself before you make sweeping comments on the overall usefulness of the character.

    It is better because the feat requiremnt is not the same i.e. shintao saves a feat and this build will have trouble getting to 78ish intimidate and needs every intimdate point it can get believe me. Just play around with the intimidate score and you will see what I mean. The earth grasp is a very nice bonus as well. 25% incorporeality is a nice thing but healing amp/hit points/dr are where the game it is at right now on epic not saying it will not change someday but that is where the game is at now 25% doesnt save you from the other 75% of the time your getting hit. For epic Lob you need intimidate quite honestly that is just the way of it. I do not see much point in making tanks that can not tank epic lob at least for harcore players. For more casual players who run VOD and TOD for some gear well that is different.

    The plinking with bow at range when you could be manyshotting/10k starring and saving them for when you could be building melee hate seems weird to me but you're the pro right?
    My hunch is that ranging all the time if it can be done will be better then melee/range because of the mournland debuff in LOB sure in other dungeons range/melee, but in lob go range all the time. I will not say more on the subject other then the OP should play around with it more...
    Last edited by maddmatt70; 12-01-2011 at 10:18 PM.
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  15. #15
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    It is better because the feat requiremnt is not the same i.e. shintao saves a feat and this build will have trouble getting to 78ish intimidate and needs every intimdate point it can get believe me. Just play around with the intimidate score and you will see what I mean. The earth grasp is a very nice bonus as well. 25% incorporeality is a nice thing but healing amp/hit points/dr are where the game it is at right now on epic not saying it will not change someday but that is where the game is at now 25% doesnt save you from the other 75% of the time your getting hit. For epic Lob you need intimidate quite honestly that is just the way of it. I do not see much point in making tanks that can not tank epic lob at least for harcore players. For more casual players who run VOD and TOD for some gear well that is different.



    My hunch is that ranging all the time if it can be done will be better then melee/range because of the mournland debuff in LOB sure in other dungeons range/melee, but in lob go range all the time. I will not say more on the subject other then the OP should play around with it more...
    25% incorporeality basically equates to +25% HP. The times that it doesn't equate to +25% HP are against effects that aren't melee (most of those evasion will help with though, this build lacking improved evasion is probably the biggest criticism so far). To say that Shadow Fade isn't valuable in the current state of the game is really showing your ignorance of basic game mechanics.

    Shintao I gives +2 intimidate. This equates to +10% chance of grabbing aggro with intimidate. Giving up +25% miss chance is simply not worth it.

    Earth Grasp is nice but it is an AoE buff and another light monk can do it.

    I'm not sure what Arsont's intentions are for the build. Tanking normal/hard LoB? Tanking epic LoB? Let us see what he has to say about it.

    It is quite possible for the build to reach 80 intimidate without gimping the build by lacking shadow fade. Again, however, wait for Arsont to comment on his intentions with intimidate.

  16. #16
    Community Member Arsont's Avatar
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    Thanks so much all for the lively discussion so far. It's been a busy day, so I haven't had a chance to respond until now. I'll respond to as much as I can, without overlapping.

    My main goal with this build is to provide a versatile, survivable ranged capable tank, with enough hp/AC to tank elite Horoth or normal (Possibly hard) Lord of Blades (Honestly though, I don't really see much reason to run epics at all once you're done with gear. They're not really challenging, just long and boring. But that's me). Also, I wanted the build to be able to achieve this while not sacrificing much for an epic dps build (IPS, DC 43+ Stunning Fist, ability to swap to Kensai if really wanted).

    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Why AC? In the game there is very little value to AC right now. That might change, but the expense never really justifies the investment for AC. The dodge feat for example gives very little. What is your intimidate going to be? 75+? -snip- Your right your hp are low so lose some of that ac gear and stat distribution and focus and build for hp and healing amp. Your level split is a decent one for this concept, but tweak the build if you really want to do range tanking.. Oh and go shintao 1 you get a bonus to your intimidate and it is more useful then dark monk 1.
    Post shortened for aesthetics.

    First off, based on this post and some of your later posts, I have this to say: Meh. Following the same logic, there's really no reason to even play a melee, since a caster with DoTs can just completely turtle while still doing dps (And, in many cases, self heal). If you don't like my build, I challenge you to build one better. That's what these forums are partially for, right? Anyhow, that being said...

    I like AC because for quite a bit of content, an AC tank is superior to a plain meatbag, provided they can still fulfill the role of a tank (Keep hate off the party). Besides, I enjoy a challenge, and building an effective AC tank is a challenge. Throwing in Arcane Archer just ups the challenge, and so the fun.

    Hp is a bit lower than I would like, this is true. However, it's still quite reasonable for a monk tank variant (Current numbers I have put hp at 760). That being said, I could up my hp (And intim, as you mentioned farther in your post) a bit. If I intented to tank with this build, and do nothing but tank, I'd drop Stunning Fist and Improved Precise Shot to pick up Barbarian Past Life and a second Toughness. That would be another 42 hp and 2 intim.

    As noted, if I were ONLY concerned with tanking, I could swap out a couple feats. Also, as other posters noted, Completionist is an amazing feat. +2 to all skills and stats trumps any other single feat I could fit in. Even with Shintao giving +2 Intimidate, I don't believe it's worth giving up what basically equals another 25% hp (Which stacks with Cloudkill or whatnot).

    As far as healing amp, I'll be running 216%, assuming my numbers are right (20% human, 20% monk, 10% guild, 5% pally PL, 30% eGloves of the Claw). That, with mid 700 hp and mid to upper 90's AC and 10% DR from earth stance should help make a rather survivable tank.

    Finally, Intimidate. There were a couple posts asking about this, so I'll provide a breakdown.
    23 ranks
    20 eBrawn's Spirits
    5 eGloves of the Claw
    2 Defender
    2 enhancements (Needed to qualify for SD)
    5 cha mod (8+2 Completionist+2 tome+2 ship+7 item=21 cha)
    6 greensteel
    4 GH
    2 good luck
    2 Completionist
    2 Yugo/store (I'm not sure if the Yugo would be advisable here)
    73 self-buffed.
    A little low, but could be 77 if I were to swap in PL:Barb and drop an enhancement for the last two ranks of Improved Intim (Or, a horrible option, took Shintao instead of NS). Also, I -could- swap out Power Attack for SF:Intim if I wanted, but I'm not sold on being a tank and nothing else (See above). However, I'm not worried about tanking epic; A 900 hp Stalwart DR tank with the shield line is better suited for that as a main tank than this build.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    There's absolutely no way you can generate the hate with this build necessary to hold aggro. Ranged damage remains inferior to melee damage.
    Quote Originally Posted by dkyle View Post
    Steal aggro, sure. But the tank needs to keep it. Outside of those 20 seconds per 2 minutes, Ranged DPS may not be enough to keep aggro, and threat gear is usually (maybe always? not sure) melee only.
    I will admit, standard ranged is less than melee. However, few people will disagree that Manyshot is some of, if not THE best, burst dps in the game. Combine Manyshot with 10k Stars, and the ranged dps will be quite high.

    Based on my experience, ranged has a knack of pulling hate even off toons geared with threat improving gear. Also, despite the description of Stalwart, my experience with the Defender stances seems to indicate that it is also applying to ranged as well as melee. Regardless. Once I have the initial aggro I can swap to melee if I so please, and then should have little to no problem keeping hate (Epic Brawn's Spirits, Earth II, Defender stance). If you'll note, I attempted to keep a pretty even focus on both ranged and melee. However, between Manyshot and 10k Stars, I'm not sure how much I'll need to swap to melee.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    You're not planning on kiting are you? Kind of defeats the purpose of tanking...

    And if you're standing still, and he's right in your face, your AC will take a hit if you have a bow out... You're probably just going to switch to melee at that point, right?

    Or no? Do yourself as using ranged most of the time while tanking or just manyshot and then switching to melee?
    No, I almost never kite, especially in parties. That's the reason I made a "ranger" in the first place.

    With the new alchemical weapons, I won't lose any AC swapping from wraps to a bow; The tier I air will still all the benefits that the wraps do. But as noted above, I could swap to melee if/as needed. However, depending on the effectiveness of 10k Stars, I may not need to.

    Apologies if I came off as impolite, but I'm merely being blunt. Further apologies for being so delayed in posting a response. Thanks all for the input and suggestions so far!
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    It is better because the feat requiremnt is not the same i.e. shintao saves a feat and this build will have trouble getting to 78ish intimidate and needs every intimdate point it can get believe me. Just play around with the intimidate score and you will see what I mean. The earth grasp is a very nice bonus as well. 25% incorporeality is a nice thing but healing amp/hit points/dr are where the game it is at right now on epic not saying it will not change someday but that is where the game is at now 25% doesnt save you from the other 75% of the time your getting hit. For epic Lob you need intimidate quite honestly that is just the way of it. I do not see much point in making tanks that can not tank epic lob at least for harcore players. For more casual players who run VOD and TOD for some gear well that is different.



    My hunch is that ranging all the time if it can be done will be better then melee/range because of the mournland debuff in LOB sure in other dungeons range/melee, but in lob go range all the time. I will not say more on the subject other then the OP should play around with it more...
    25% incorp is a form of dr. It's just not applicable to every hit but estremely better on the hits it works on. With earth stance dmg reduction and incorp it is a large chunk of dmg mitigation a combo that no other class can obtain in AC less situations. We have had tanks tank elob with intim and wihtout its really no difference either way really just have to be more conscious as other melees if there is no intim available. I think you need to reevaluate your statement that this build couldn't tank elob although I agree more hp would be very helpful and theres easier ways to build a lob tank than one fairly heavily dependent on completionist but I think it's viable to say it could.

    I really think you need to back off on your Epic lob absolutes spewing it's beginning to sound like someone else I know. There are plenty of differences in how people are beating the quest and I doubt you or anyone (myself included) has actually figured out the best way.
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  18. #18
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeLoric View Post
    25% incorp is a form of dr. It's just not applicable to every hit but estremely better on the hits it works on. With earth stance dmg reduction and incorp it is a large chunk of dmg mitigation a combo that no other class can obtain in AC less situations. We have had tanks tank elob with intim and wihtout its really no difference either way really just have to be more conscious as other melees if there is no intim available. I think you need to reevaluate your statement that this build couldn't tank elob although I agree more hp would be very helpful and theres easier ways to build a lob tank than one fairly heavily dependent on completionist but I think it's viable to say it could.

    I really think you need to back off on your Epic lob absolutes spewing it's beginning to sound like someone else I know. There are plenty of differences in how people are beating the quest and I doubt you or anyone (myself included) has actually figured out the best way.
    Tower raid is over 2 years old and Vod is over 4. Lob is all of three months old and we are all striving to get gear from there unlike the other two raids. Pretty much any old thing can tank normal or hard Lob. Epic on the other hand requires a fairly serious tank. So if someone is building a serious tank why would you not build it for epic lob? Would you make a tank for ELOB without intimidate? I sure as heck would not. 700 hp if this build gets the mournland it will not be tanking as long as one that has 850 to 1000 hp which kind of defeats the purpose of a tank. There are obviously higher dps builds so if you are not a real tank it stands to reason make a higher dps build.

    I will not attest toward being the master of knowledge of epic lob so open to any suggestions or ideas. I do not see a way to do epic lob other then grinding it out with some sort of healing amp/dr/hp tank or two and a number of healer/scroll types and some off tanks melee dps that can do the job and utility spellcasters that provide utility.

    To OP: A DOT tank is not practical on epic because the dot tank runs out of sp and has to drink a lot of pots.
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  19. #19
    Community Member Arsont's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Tower raid is over 2 years old and Vod is over 4. Lob is all of three months old and we are all striving to get gear from there unlike the other two raids. Pretty much any old thing can tank normal or hard Lob. Epic on the other hand requires a fairly serious tank. So if someone is building a serious tank why would you not build it for epic lob? Would you make a tank for ELOB without intimidate? I sure as heck would not. 700 hp if this build gets the mournland it will not be tanking as long as one that has 850 to 1000 hp which kind of defeats the purpose of a tank. There are obviously higher dps builds so if you are not a real tank it stands to reason make a higher dps build.

    I will not attest toward being the master of knowledge of epic lob so open to any suggestions or ideas. I do not see a way to do epic lob other then grinding it out with some sort of healing amp/dr/hp tank or two and a number of healer/scroll types and some off tanks melee dps that can do the job and utility spellcasters that provide utility.

    To OP: A DOT tank is not practical on epic because the dot tank runs out of sp and has to drink a lot of pots.
    Sure, I -could- build a tank with the sole purpose being to tank eLoB, but that's kind of boring. Also, I find epics in general to be boring. I'd rather be off attempting to two-man elite Tod or something where my (key point here) AC build can actually make use of it's potential. That's my idea of "fun" and "challenging". As I said earlier, a massive hp DR tank with the shield line and massive intim would be better suited for magic.

    And yes, I'm sure a slight variant of this could be done with the core concept being tanking eLoB. Like I said, dropping a couple feats for Barb PL and another Toughness or two would be a start. Completionist is used because I can. It'd be perfectly possible without it, most likely by dropping a bit of strength (The posted split runs ~40 str/wis). However, as I said. I'm not interested in eLoB, especially with the current raiding scene on Sarlona.

    This is, as I noted, a ranged tank. I have yet to see anyone else post one. But since you seem to know what is most needed in eLoB, go make a ranged tank that I can learn from.

    P.S. Yes, I'm aware a caster would need to chug many pots. But for someone who has nothing better to do in the game, why not? Pots are just another resource a player can burn through if they're willing.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Hmm.. Is this why everyone tells my rangers to not use manyshot right away in ToD and VoD?

    Because the few times I did use manyshot early in those fights, I ALWAYS took aggro.
    Manyshot is not sustainable damage, so please troll elsewhere.
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