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  1. #161
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    If you don't care about trash mobs and only care about bosses, why do you prefer to play an assassin? Assassin 1 grants poisons. End game bosses tend to be immune to poison. Assassin 2 grants assassinate. Tends not to work on end game bosses. Assassin 3 grants random insta-kill. Doesn't work on end game bosses. All 3 ranks of assassin grant bonus sneak attack damage. End game bosses tend to have fortification. Duel wielding assassins get a penalty to to-hit for each hand equal to either -2 to each hand or -4 to each hand, depending on various factors. End game bosses tend to have high ac. Assassins excel at fighting trash mobs and suck at fighting bosses.

    The best type of rogue for fighting end game bosses is an acrobat. Half orcs I believe get enhancements that increase the effectiveness of 2 handed fighting so if you prefer to play a half orc rogue, your half orc would be well suited for being an acrobat.

  2. #162
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by destiny4405 View Post
    i know your build, which i didn't question, nor did i question it's dps.



    in all dps calc i saw, New DPS chart being one of them, esos kensai is behind TWF kensai, among other builds.
    Point being that I'm bringing more than just DPS and it doesn't include assassinate (which seems to debunk your previous point).

    According to that chart the only build that has more DPS than THF'ing Fighter vs 50% fort is a TWF'ing rogue (I don't count pally atm as low DPS vs constructs).

  3. #163
    Community Member destiny4405's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post
    Point being that I'm bringing more than just DPS and it doesn't include assassinate (which seems to debunk your previous point).
    my point was that rogues are top dps class. also that they aren't one trick pony even if they don't use assassinate/stun.

    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post
    According to that chart the only build that has more DPS than THF'ing Fighter vs 50% fort is a TWF'ing rogue (I don't count pally atm as low DPS vs constructs).
    was looking at 0% for but doesn't matter. a rogue has ~10% more then fighter. how does that make the esos fighter highest DPS possible?
    also, the TWF variants are using Min II pesh. if it was calculated for holy pesh of greater bane, it would be ahead.
    Last edited by destiny4405; 02-02-2012 at 09:46 PM.
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  4. #164
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by destiny4405 View Post
    my point was that rogues are top dps class. also that they aren't one trick pony even if they don't use assassinate/stun.
    So what else does a 6 or 8 int rogue bring besides ****** DPS?

    Here's my dilemma:
    Raids: Tactics build like mine brings the most DPS vs 50% Fort+ bosses and brings Improved Sunder as well (stuns for trash phases is neither here nor there).
    Epic quests: Intelligence based rogue is clearly superior to any other build here with 1-2 free kills every 15 seconds. However, my tactics build is still quite useful here being able to solo 1-2 mobs at a time without assistance and stun some mobs that would otherwise be un-CC'able (like orange named or high fort/SR trash).

    Conclusion:
    Pure DPS gets 2nd place in raids and 3rd place in epic quests.
    Tactics build gets 1st place in raids and 2nd place in epic quests.
    Assassinate build gets 3rd place in raids and 1st place in epic quests.

    Or, at least that is how it seems to me (but I'm obviously biased).

    Quote Originally Posted by destiny4405 View Post
    was looking at 0% for but doesn't matter. a rogue has ~10% more then fighter. how does that make the esos fighter highest DPS possible?
    News to me, not sure why I don't see more rogues in top tier raids in that case if the calcs are correct and it certainly gives some wiggle room to start with 14 int on a rogue even if max DPS is the goal. On a 36 point build 16 starting strength, constitution and intelligence is my ideal pure rogue (14 starting dex with a +3 dex tome). Level ups in strength or intelligence depending on whether raiding or epic questing is the primary purpose.

    If the charts are true and if the DPS calcs by Diyon in my thread are true then it certainly looks good for unarmed rogues potentially having the highest raid DPS possible.

    Now I just have to get enough HP to survive epic lob ... (if I slot +1 exceptional con and an LGA necklace I'm looking at 557 with rage/ship/madstone for guild eLoB's which are starting next week apparently.)

  5. #165
    Community Member destiny4405's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post
    So what else does a 6 or 8 int rogue bring besides ****** DPS?
    First and foremost umd.
    last time i was doing lob on my rogue, i prepped pillars, while party was marking him. no dps involved.
    break enchantment when needed.
    umd'ing elemental or adamantine weapons if someone needs.
    umd'ing an archon if there is no light like in rainbow in the dark.
    greater teleport and other stuff.

    also, i can get hp to 700 and my threat to ~250% (10%/15%/20% DT, 25% earth stance, 30% circle of hatred). no problem for some normal bosses when there isn't anyone else.

    i can get heal amp to 200% and have no trouble healing myself with vampirism wraps.

    i can have any trash mob helpless in matter of seconds with earthgrab/stone prison/freezing ice combo.

    and a bit more. this stuff ofc isn't tied only for a str build. it's for any rogue that puts some effort in it. the point is, there is no such a thing as 'only DPS' when rogues are involved. one of the reasons i love playing them.

    and ofc, every last bit of DPS that i could squeeze out of my build.

    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post
    Here's my dilemma:
    Raids: Tactics build like mine brings the most DPS vs 50% Fort+ bosses and brings Improved Sunder as well (stuns for trash phases is neither here nor there).
    Black Lotus build brings more DPS vs. 50%+ fort bosses.

    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post
    Conclusion:
    Pure DPS gets 2nd place in raids and 3rd place in epic quests.
    Tactics build gets 1st place in raids and 2nd place in epic quests.
    Assassinate build gets 3rd place in raids and 1st place in epic quests.

    Or, at least that is how it seems to me (but I'm obviously biased).
    talk to some people that lead the raids. see how many would preffer tactics or assassinate build for epic velah.
    Last edited by destiny4405; 02-02-2012 at 11:02 PM.
    Jesus saves. Everyone else rounds to nearest 5%.

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  6. #166
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by destiny4405 View Post
    First and foremost umd.
    last time i was doing lob on my rogue, i prepped pillars, while party was marking him. no dps involved.
    break enchantment when needed.
    umd'ing elemental or adamantine weapons if someone needs.
    umd'ing an archon if there is no light like in rainbow in the dark.
    greater teleport and other stuff.

    also, i can get hp to 700 and my threat to ~250% (10%/15%/20% DT, 25% earth stance, 30% circle of hatred). no problem for some normal bosses when there isn't anyone else.

    i can get heal amp to 200% and have no trouble healing myself with vampirism wraps.

    i can have any trash mob helpless in matter of seconds with earthgrab/stone prison/freezing ice combo.

    and a bit more. this stuff ofc isn't tied only for a str build. it's for any rogue that puts some effort in it. the point is, there is no such a thing as 'only DPS' when rogues are involved. one of the reasons i love playing them.

    and ofc, every last bit of DPS that i could squeeze out of my build.
    You don't sound like a pure strength based rogue to me

    I'm certain my build could push out similar values if geared correctly (earth stance = +20, yugo = +40, double madstone = +40, +2 exceptional con (on a ToD ring) = +20 for a total of 677 HP I think which would be fine for bosses as you say; I've actually planned to do exactly that and AC tank Horoth on normal just for lols, I'm pretty sure I can hit the 88 AC needed to only be hit on a 20).

    Quote Originally Posted by destiny4405 View Post
    Black Lotus build brings more DPS vs. 50%+ fort bosses.
    My build is inspired by Black Lotus. I wanted to have as close to its DPS as possible while including a few tactics. It's certainly a viable raid build to drop SF/SB and, for instance, go 19/1 but I enjoy the versatility of the stuns (which is more reliable than on hit effects like earth grab and freezing ice, higher DC too). Half-elf does a lot for my builds burst DPS which would likely put it in front in the short term.

    Overall, Black Lotus is in front for raid preference but when I was looking at the build and taking into account developments such as improved sunder and stunning fist I knew that I wanted to include them - it would be silly not to as they are so good and my build is what I ended up with.

    Quote Originally Posted by destiny4405 View Post
    talk to some people that lead the raids. see how many would preffer tactics or assassinate build for epic velah.
    I was making generalisations

  7. #167
    Community Member Rogann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norean View Post
    If you don't care about trash mobs and only care about bosses, why do you prefer to play an assassin? Assassin 1 grants poisons. End game bosses tend to be immune to poison. Assassin 2 grants assassinate. Tends not to work on end game bosses. Assassin 3 grants random insta-kill. Doesn't work on end game bosses. All 3 ranks of assassin grant bonus sneak attack damage. End game bosses tend to have fortification. Duel wielding assassins get a penalty to to-hit for each hand equal to either -2 to each hand or -4 to each hand, depending on various factors. End game bosses tend to have high ac. Assassins excel at fighting trash mobs and suck at fighting bosses.

    The best type of rogue for fighting end game bosses is an acrobat. Half orcs I believe get enhancements that increase the effectiveness of 2 handed fighting so if you prefer to play a half orc rogue, your half orc would be well suited for being an acrobat.
    Assassin 1: 1d6 SA dmg. Assassins focus:+20 to crits and +2 to hit.

    Assassin 2: 1d6 SA dmg.

    Assassin 3: 1d6 SA dmg(bringing the total to 3d6).Vorpal hands!! (100 untyped dmg to all enemies over 1k hp, which works on endgame bosses...)

    Twf is more dps then Thf, plus acrobat sucks lol

  8. #168
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogann View Post
    Assassin 1: 1d6 SA dmg. Assassins focus:+20 to crits and +2 to hit.

    Assassin 2: 1d6 SA dmg.

    Assassin 3: 1d6 SA dmg(bringing the total to 3d6).Vorpal hands!! (100 untyped dmg to all enemies over 1k hp, which works on endgame bosses...)

    Twf is more dps then Thf, plus acrobat sucks lol
    Acrobats suck at level 20 in raids ... everywhere else they rock. Or at least I thought so when I was leveling and I still wish I was Acrobat for running challenges. I never used a quarterstaff though.

  9. #169
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    Acrobats would be ok if the prereqs weren't so expensive, dex III is just a hideous waste of APs for a prestige that only really offers knockdown immunity(which is admittedly pretty awesome) and a small move speed buff. At level 20 in raids they're still ok if you don't like assassinating IMO, being immune to knockdowns in DQ, VoN, MA, a little faster in HoX, and possibly being able to get away with only crafting a staff for undead(abbot) instead 2 more dedicated weapons for one raid; but yea, still sub-optimal.

  10. #170
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ayseifn View Post
    Acrobats would be ok if the prereqs weren't so expensive, dex III is just a hideous waste of APs for a prestige that only really offers knockdown immunity(which is admittedly pretty awesome) and a small move speed buff. At level 20 in raids they're still ok if you don't like assassinating IMO, being immune to knockdowns in DQ, VoN, MA, a little faster in HoX, and possibly being able to get away with only crafting a staff for undead(abbot) instead 2 more dedicated weapons for one raid; but yea, still sub-optimal.
    I might respec to Acrobat in the future for a time just to do some fun stuff in which case Dex III would be taken anyway for enough AC to raid tank. I'm pretty sure I can hit enough HP and AC to tank Horoth on normal, just for lols.

  11. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogann View Post
    Assassin 1: 1d6 SA dmg. Assassins focus:+20 to crits and +2 to hit.

    Assassin 2: 1d6 SA dmg.

    Assassin 3: 1d6 SA dmg(bringing the total to 3d6).Vorpal hands!! (100 untyped dmg to all enemies over 1k hp, which works on endgame bosses...)

    Twf is more dps then Thf, plus acrobat sucks lol
    The assassin tier 3 insta kill effect doesn't do 100 untyped damage to enemies over 1k hp. I know because I used to play an assassin.

  12. #172
    Community Member MalarKan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogann View Post
    Assassin 1: 1d6 SA dmg. Assassins focus:+20 to crits and +2 to hit.

    Assassin 2: 1d6 SA dmg.

    Assassin 3: 1d6 SA dmg(bringing the total to 3d6).Vorpal hands!! (100 untyped dmg to all enemies over 1k hp, which works on endgame bosses...)

    Twf is more dps then Thf, plus acrobat sucks lol
    Yes, Twf is better dps than Thf. Thats why i have a lvl 18 (currently) pure rogue acrobat that is a Twf, pulling a staff when its needed (like my pos3 Qstaff GS, my unlocked Breeze or one of my Rahl's Might). Currently on my 4th rogue life, a 36 point build with starting stats 16-14-18-12-8-8, +3 Dex and Con tomes, and not single skill point wasted in balance. Yeah, Assins are best choice if you wanna top the dps on a rogue, but get to the point where you are and affirm that Acrobats sucks? Hehe, i wouldnt get there, since its still a (someday) lvl 20 rogue with only 3d6 SA less than Assins, BUT still dealing 14d6 per SA hit, still a high DPS, not the best, but still a very fun, versatile and solid build, like many other builds that may not the best, but still... ah, you get the picture... pretty much that acrobats are better DPS than Assins in certain situations (since a rogue cant dps while laying in his butt and the acrobat is performing many sneaky strikes); and the extra 10% running speed can get you in trouble real easy and also out of it just as quick... which is a very valuable skill when you are kitting trash while raising people that arent lucky enough to survive longer than a well played rogue.

    As for rogues, i have to agree with the popular thought that there are as many rogue builds as people playing rogues, since it all depends on how you like to play and how you gear it.

    And yeah, with starting 8 Cha i can still umd heal scrolls with over 100% chance... and at lvl 20 will have 100% chance on ressurrect scrolls (umd 44) too.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ayseifn View Post
    Acrobats would be ok if the prereqs weren't so expensive


    Really? "expensive"? Id say its even cheap on a pure rogue, having it only up to tier 2 (for now) and having a lot of AP free to spend on whatever you want! also, have you noticed how much AP you have to spend to be an Assin III and still trying to have Halfling Guile IV and Halfling Cunning IV? also, Extra Action Boosts, 'Toughnesses' and whatever else you wanna take? Speaking of the AP you spend to max the DPS is fun, but there are some that you just cant take, and that is also affecting the DPs chart.




    Cheers!

    Long Live R.O.G.U.E.
    Last edited by MalarKan; 02-03-2012 at 10:19 AM.
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  13. #173
    Community Member brzytki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norean View Post
    The assassin tier 3 insta kill effect doesn't do 100 untyped damage to enemies over 1k hp. I know because I used to play an assassin.
    It didn't use to do 100 dmg to enemies over 1k hp, but Devs finally fixed it in one of the recent updates.
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  14. #174
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    I would like to point out 3 things: First acrobats add their dex modifier to their sneak attack damage when using a quarterstaff so they also get bonus to sa damage from their prestige, although it won't match the sa damage of an assassin. Secondly acrobats get a permanent 15% haste boost when using a quarterstaff and that stacks with the rogue enhancement ability haste boost. Thirdly I pointed out that end game bosses have fort which blocks a lot of the sneak attack damage. You seem to be ignoring that line. A quarterstaff in the hands of a half orc acrobat is formidable.

  15. #175
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    They fixed the assassin's inate vorpal to do the 100 damage? That's awesome. I need to TR porkys back into an assassin now. Just gotta stop being distracted and level her up.

  16. #176
    Community Member MalarKan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norean View Post
    Thirdly I pointed out that end game bosses have fort which blocks a lot of the sneak attack damage. You seem to be ignoring that line.
    I like to ignore that line on purpose mainly because fortification are not an issue for rogues. May i just mention a few things: Destruction/Improved Destruction, Sunder/Improved sunder, Wrack construct and Opportunist. A rogue has at least one of those, and in all epics or raids theres always someone that has the rest

    Edited: im never in random pugs tho...
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  17. #177
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    I've been learning a lot from this thread. I'm sorry for subjecting you guys to me ignorance.

  18. #178
    Community Member destiny4405's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post
    You don't sound like a pure strength based rogue to me
    well, i did start with 10 base int

    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post
    I'm certain my build could push out similar values if geared correctly (earth stance = +20, yugo = +40, double madstone = +40, +2 exceptional con (on a ToD ring) = +20 for a total of 677 HP I think which would be fine for bosses as you say; I've actually planned to do exactly that and AC tank Horoth on normal just for lols, I'm pretty sure I can hit the 88 AC needed to only be hit on a 20).
    not sure if you're counting 20 hp from item with large guild slot. i usually have it on my +4 attack bonus goggles, which i use when i have aggro or on heavy fort enemies.

    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post
    My build is inspired by Black Lotus. I wanted to have as close to its DPS as possible while including a few tactics. It's certainly a viable raid build to drop SF/SB and, for instance, go 19/1 but I enjoy the versatility of the stuns (which is more reliable than on hit effects like earth grab and freezing ice, higher DC too). Half-elf does a lot for my builds burst DPS which would likely put it in front in the short term.
    oh ya. DPS wise half-elf/human rocks for rogues.

    i know stuns are more reliable, no question there.

    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post
    Overall, Black Lotus is in front for raid preference but when I was looking at the build and taking into account developments such as improved sunder and stunning fist I knew that I wanted to include them - it would be silly not to as they are so good and my build is what I ended up with.
    i like the improved sunder. stunning fist is nice too, but imp sunder is really an awesome feat.
    Jesus saves. Everyone else rounds to nearest 5%.

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  19. #179
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MalarKan View Post
    I like to ignore that line on purpose mainly because fortification are not an issue for rogues. May i just mention a few things: Destruction/Improved Destruction, Sunder/Improved sunder, Wrack construct and Opportunist. A rogue has at least one of those, and in all epics or raids theres always someone that has the rest

    Edited: im never in random pugs tho...
    Sunder doesn't reduce fortification.
    Even in guild/channel runs I've noticed that my rogue is the one usually applying the Improved Sunder with maybe 1 other person helping.
    Destruction/Improved Destruction currently apply identical, non-stacking effect which is maximum of 4%.
    Wrack Construct doesn't work against raid bosses.

    All up ... 24% which isn't really much. FvS Aura you forgot to mention is a huge source of rogue DPS. Update 13 will be better as Improved Destruction looks like it will be fixed giving possibly 12% fort decrease between it and Destruction. Still waiting on a fix of wrack construct.

    Fortification is a BIG issue for rogues. It's why my unarmed rogue will usually do more damage in a raid than a pure rogue

  20. #180
    The Hatchery karl_k0ch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post
    Destruction/Improved Destruction currently apply identical, non-stacking effect which is maximum of 4%.
    That's currently. Lamania's preview for u13 indicates indicates that this will be fixed.

    Also, for constructs, there is always a blasting chime.
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