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  1. #261
    Community Member Rogann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hathorian View Post
    why start with 20 strength then? it takes 3 build pts to get from 19 to 20 STR but only 2 build pts to go from 15 to 16 CON. could have saved a build point to go somewhere else. not a big deal i guess.
    Im making a stat/lv up build soon(for my current survivability build). Also adding in a 'max dps' guide aswell(which only includes making a different ED active and changing 1 feat lmao)

  2. #262
    Community Member Rogann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AirbornedChild View Post
    Go dump STR on your rogue. Don't you want to take additional 6d6 SA damage? They you HAVE TO DUMP STR.

    Just look. You need 21 DEX. How much can you make at start on YOUR human/half-elf? 16 - max(and doesn't worth it, 6 points for +2 DEX). 15? Even with +4 Tome you have to raise DEX twice. Think - you lost 2 points of STR.

    These 6d6(when bug will be fixed) make halfling/elven rogue much more useful.

    At last. Khopesh should be in Kensai's hands, not rogue's ones.

    When I just saw prereq = 21 DEX I thought - it is time of DEX rogues.
    Or you could just do 16 dex/+3 tome and 2 lv ups..not that hard bud.

    Not sure how ISA makes eleves/halfling rogues better...every race can take the feat.

    Why wouldnt i use khopeshs on a rogue?

    Once again. Since when does ISA make dex rogues viable?

  3. #263
    Community Member Rogann's Avatar
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    Doing massive overhaul of guide. Farmed out 1.3 mil xp to cap shadowdancer. 4 days left on LR timer so guide will be coming soon. Just to make you 'max dps' people happy.

  4. #264
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AirbornedChild View Post
    But what will prevent DEX rogue to improve this stat? Nothing. SD - DEX/INT. You know it.

    Edit. Bard should sing all stat songs. To be fair. Is it wrong? Just think. All stats will be better. Better DC, better hit/damage. Better AC.

    Noob. You should know. More DEX = more Refles save. But you are one of such people who think that saves are nothing comparing to HP.

    HP is nothing without saves.
    SD = Dex OR Int, you can't have both, you going to take dex and gimp your assassinate DC?

    Bard should do whatever he wants, what he wants is to make people hit harder, maybe, maybe you get a dex song in a raid where most of the damage is from AoEs but it'd be one blue moon out of a hundred (maybe I'll start a counter in my bio for you for the amount of dex songs I get, my money is on the game shutting down before I get one).

    I know more than most the importance of saves, I fit +5 resist items on my characters while leveling and utilise feats like Paladin Dilettante and items like Enhancement vs Enchantments items (suck it disco ball). HP > Saves, each and every time, HP is the only defense that defends against everything (except things that you can become immune to or cure immediately). This is irrelevant though, I've already shown how my monk splashed rogue will have similar saves to your strength dumped rogue.

    Dex/int rogue isn't bad, I particularly like int rogue, it's crummy DPS though.
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  5. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post
    Dex/int rogue isn't bad, I particularly like int rogue, it's crummy DPS though.
    Except it's not.

    Even if you dump STR. A pure rogue's SA is simply absurd damage, when compared to other classes. At 20d6+20 (pure 20 + Assassin + ISA + Backstabbing Item), you have 90 points of damage. Per hit. Add in 6d6 from Shadowdancer, and you have 111. Before anything else. That's a lot of damage.

    And then, even if you dump STR vs. someone who maxed it, you're looking at 15 less points of STR (8 vs. 23). That's 12-13 points of damage less, given identical gear. And if someone puts 3 points of STR and uses a +2 tome, for base 13, and picks up PA, that difference goes down to 5 points of damage (6 if the STR guy uses a tome, too).

    6 points of damage. Even if you factor in crits, you still only have a difference of 8.6. That's basically forgetting to turn PA on, and PA on or off doesn't make the difference between "awesome DPS" and "crummy DPS". Comapre 8.6 to 90 or 111, if you will; before even taking into account ANYTHING else, dumping STR is less than a 10% decrease in damage. Add in base damage, weapon enchantments, etc, and it's probably something like 3 to 5%.

    It annoys me when people think DEX/INT rogues will depend on DEX to deal damage, or that they'll have bad gear. Like the OP, when he said DEX rogues often have sub-300 HP.
    Last edited by Qezuzu; 07-08-2012 at 09:45 PM.

  6. #266
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qezuzu View Post
    Except it's not.

    Even if you dump STR. A pure rogue's SA is simply absurd damage, when compared to other classes. At 20d6+20 (pure 20 + Assassin + ISA + Backstabbing Item), you have 90 points of damage. Per hit. Add in 6d6 from Shadowdancer, and you have 111. Before anything else. That's a lot of damage.

    And then, even if you dump STR vs. someone who maxed it, you're looking at 15 less points of STR (8 vs. 23). That's 12-13 points of damage less, given identical gear. And if someone puts 3 points of STR and uses a +2 tome, for base 13, and picks up PA, that difference goes down to 5 points of damage (6 if the STR guy uses a tome, too).

    6 points of damage. Even if you factor in crits, you still only have a difference of 8.6. That's basically forgetting to turn PA on, and PA on or off doesn't make the difference between "awesome DPS" and "crummy DPS". Comapre 8.6 to 90 or 111, if you will; before even taking into account ANYTHING else, dumping STR is less than a 10% decrease in damage. Add in base damage, weapon enchantments, etc, and it's probably something like 3 to 5%.

    It annoys me when people think DEX/INT rogues will depend on DEX to deal damage, or that they'll have bad gear. Like the OP, when he said DEX rogues often have sub-300 HP.
    That argument is so U13. AB actually makes a difference now and it's very unlikely that you'll hit the assumed hardcap of 95% hit rate even with precision unless you are pure strength or pure dexterity based (and even then you'll still be shy of it vs high AC mobs I'd imagine).

    Not sure what your AB stats are looking like but I was mucking around with Kinerd's formula and came up with this elsewhere (left variable is AB, right variable is AC):
    (30 + 10.5) / (2 * 50) + .3 =0.705
    (40 + 10.5) / (2 * 50) + .3 =0.805
    (50 + 10.5) / (2 * 50) + .3 =0.905
    (55 + 10.5) / (2 * 50) + .3 =0.95 (assumed cap)
    (55 + 10.5) / (2 * 60) + .3 =0.85 <--- fair few mobs in U13 had this like Epic Malicia, Demon Queen and Turigulon
    (65 + 10.5) / (2 * 60) + .3 =0.93
    (65 + 10.5) / (2 * 70) + .3 =0.84 <--- I think 70 AC is EE LoB?
    (70 + 10.5) / (2 * 70) + .3 =0.875

    What happens when you miss 5-10% more often and hit for 5-10 points of damage less? Beyond the obvious crits also start to matter more (as a larger proportion of your hits are criticals) which aren't effected by SA though glancing blows perhaps matter more (which you're supposed to get SA on but not sure if that's working for melee yet).
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  7. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post
    That argument is so U13. AB actually makes a difference now and it's very unlikely that you'll hit the assumed hardcap of 95% hit rate even with precision unless you are pure strength or pure dexterity based (and even then you'll still be shy of it vs high AC mobs I'd imagine).

    Not sure what your AB stats are looking like but I was mucking around with Kinerd's formula and came up with this elsewhere (left variable is AB, right variable is AC):
    (30 + 10.5) / (2 * 50) + .3 =0.705
    (40 + 10.5) / (2 * 50) + .3 =0.805
    (50 + 10.5) / (2 * 50) + .3 =0.905
    (55 + 10.5) / (2 * 50) + .3 =0.95 (assumed cap)
    (55 + 10.5) / (2 * 60) + .3 =0.85 <--- fair few mobs in U13 had this like Epic Malicia, Demon Queen and Turigulon
    (65 + 10.5) / (2 * 60) + .3 =0.93
    (65 + 10.5) / (2 * 70) + .3 =0.84 <--- I think 70 AC is EE LoB?
    (70 + 10.5) / (2 * 70) + .3 =0.875

    What happens when you miss 5-10% more often and hit for 5-10 points of damage less? Beyond the obvious crits also start to matter more (as a larger proportion of your hits are criticals) which aren't effected by SA though glancing blows perhaps matter more (which you're supposed to get SA on but not sure if that's working for melee yet).
    As someone who has an INT-based rogue, with a base STR of 12, I can tell you that I had no issue hitting Epic Elite Malicia last night (on a 2). Math will never trump in-game observations. Ever.

    You're also assuming that DEX/INT rogues have crummy DPS based on a total of 4 or so mobs (Lailat, Malicia, Turigalon) who have higher-than standard AC's. And I also can't help but laugh at people who bring eLoB into discussions about to-hit. He has the single highest AC of any mob in the game, and resides in a rarely-run raid. Saying anyone's DPS is bad because they aren't as effective against LoB is ridiculous.

    My to-hit was overkill before u14. It still hits 99% of things 95% of the time. It's above 70, iirc, when fully, sustainably buffed, with sneak attacks and flanking.

  8. #268
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    Str vs dex rogues seems to be in favor of dex now if you're going SD.


    Shadow Training IV, Executioner's Strike, easier to get the epic SA feats, up to 9 dex from enhancements, +4 SA to hit from dex yugo pots and more AC now that it seems to matter for everyone. If I didn't have a ton of khopeshes and a fear of leveling a finesse toon to 20 it'd be what I'd be going for now.

  9. #269
    Community Member .Revenga.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ayseifn View Post
    Str vs dex rogues seems to be in favor of dex now if you're going SD.


    Shadow Training IV, Executioner's Strike, easier to get the epic SA feats, up to 9 dex from enhancements, +4 SA to hit from dex yugo pots and more AC now that it seems to matter for everyone. If I didn't have a ton of khopeshes and a fear of leveling a finesse toon to 20 it'd be what I'd be going for now.
    It's pretty balanced now, you still loose a feat to go dex-based, and you can avoid taking the dex-scaling destinies in the shadowdancer tree or just go leg dread.
    Also, i looked into AC for a rogue and it seems you'll have to save some item slots to get an AC that would make a difference, which is really small in comparison with the defensive destinies in the shadowdancer tree (passive dodge, dodge clickies and 25% incorporality)

    When i pull too much aggro i just click one of the dodge clickies ( uncanny dodge or the other 100% one) and together with the passive bonuses, blur/displacement and the 25% incorporality from shadow form i can tank anything for a short duration, which is really all you need as a rogue.

    Basically, str vs dex you sacrifice a feat and some dps to get better saves on (optional) shadowdancer destinies.
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  10. #270
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qezuzu View Post
    As someone who has an INT-based rogue, with a base STR of 12, I can tell you that I had no issue hitting Epic Elite Malicia last night (on a 2). Math will never trump in-game observations. Ever.

    You're also assuming that DEX/INT rogues have crummy DPS based on a total of 4 or so mobs (Lailat, Malicia, Turigalon) who have higher-than standard AC's. And I also can't help but laugh at people who bring eLoB into discussions about to-hit. He has the single highest AC of any mob in the game, and resides in a rarely-run raid. Saying anyone's DPS is bad because they aren't as effective against LoB is ridiculous.

    My to-hit was overkill before u14. It still hits 99% of things 95% of the time. It's above 70, iirc, when fully, sustainably buffed, with sneak attacks and flanking.
    I wasn't making any assumptions about your AB and you'll care to note that I have an int based rogue in my sig that could hit (almost?) everything on a 2 in U13 (haven't looked at the build much since). I have a keen interest in int based rogues but unfortunately am busy with other projects.

    Can we have a breakdown of your AB if it is 70? Relying on sneak attacks is only reliable if every enemy is at 0% fortification, I can certainly say that hard/elite abbot has a high AC after a death or two (which happens from time to time), how much fort reduction do you have?

    ELob might be the highest but it is an indication of what might be coming next update, or the update after.
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  11. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post
    Can we have a breakdown of your AB if it is 70?
    STR: 12 base + 3 tome + 3 (Ravager Ring) + 2 rage + 2 yugo STR + 3 Abishai + 2 ship + 7 item= 34

    25 Base (using Divine Power)
    12 STR mod
    5 weapon mod
    4 SA accuracy
    5 backstabbing item
    4 Yugoloth DEX
    8 flanking with technician
    4 Vulkoorim Leathers
    4 GH
    2 Ship dummy
    1 Haste
    -4 OTWF penalty
    =70, from effects I can recall right now.

    -15 if not a sneak attack, -8 if not flanking.

    Relying on sneak attacks is only reliable if every enemy is at 0% fortification, I can certainly say that hard/elite abbot has a high AC after a death or two (which happens from time to time), how much fort reduction do you have?
    That is, again, exactly one raid boss who has 100% fortification by default. Who even runs that raid anymore, let alone on a rogue.

    As for fort reduction, you can get 43% very easily (10 opportunist, 15 Grim Percision, 10 Armor Piercing on Black Dragonscale armor, 8 Improved Destruction). This is the level you can get alone, and does not include FvS condemnation, Improved Sunder, and whatever else there is that lowers fort. The Abbot also has Mournland Armor to deal with, so you can see as low as 37% fort on him without trying.

    ELob might be the highest but it is an indication of what might be coming next update, or the update after
    Then it's a very, very weak argument for saying that DEX/INT rogues have crummy DPS because of the loss of ~6 points of AB. "Well you can hit very accurately now but what about when uXX comes around? How is your non-STR rogue supposed to hit the raid boss for that pack?"

    It doesn't even make sense.

  12. #272
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qezuzu View Post
    STR: 12 base + 3 tome + 3 (Ravager Ring) + 2 rage + 2 yugo STR + 3 Abishai + 2 ship + 7 item= 34

    25 Base (using Divine Power)
    12 STR mod
    5 weapon mod
    4 SA accuracy
    5 backstabbing item
    4 Yugoloth DEX
    8 flanking with technician
    4 Vulkoorim Leathers
    4 GH
    2 Ship dummy
    1 Haste
    -4 OTWF penalty
    =70, from effects I can recall right now.

    -15 if not a sneak attack, -8 if not flanking.

    That is, again, exactly one raid boss who has 100% fortification by default. Who even runs that raid anymore, let alone on a rogue.

    As for fort reduction, you can get 43% very easily (10 opportunist, 15 Grim Percision, 10 Armor Piercing on Black Dragonscale armor, 8 Improved Destruction). This is the level you can get alone, and does not include FvS condemnation, Improved Sunder, and whatever else there is that lowers fort. The Abbot also has Mournland Armor to deal with, so you can see as low as 37% fort on him without trying.

    Then it's a very, very weak argument for saying that DEX/INT rogues have crummy DPS because of the loss of ~6 points of AB. "Well you can hit very accurately now but what about when uXX comes around? How is your non-STR rogue supposed to hit the raid boss for that pack?"

    It doesn't even make sense.
    Impressive gear set though I can't help but notice that you've given up damage slots for AB slots. You've mentioned vulkoorim fighting leathers and black scale. If you lose ship buffs and divine power isn't active you'll fall down to the 90% hit rate bracket vs AC 60 foes. -23 AB if you have aggro, you'd struggle to even land radiance vs some foes with that.

    Overall, you're dead right, with an ideal gearset you can happily have 12 or 14 base strength on an intelligence based rogue, look in my sig, there is a build there with exactly such a setup that I'd very much like to try one day. My criticisms of dex/int rogues was for general purpose (ie, without ideal AB gear sets) and the impact of missing 5-10 damage/hit (which is going to be 5-15% DPS depending on foe/gear).

    Why only take 12 strength though? With that gear surely you have 36 points available, I can only assume that you have 18 base int which seems overkill when you could have 16 base strength and 16 base int instead and free up an inventory slot or not rely on yugo pots constantly. Different strokes for different folks though I suppose.
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  13. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post
    Impressive gear set though I can't help but notice that you've given up damage slots for AB slots. You've mentioned vulkoorim fighting leathers and black scale.
    That's exactly one gear slot I mentioned, other than Abishai/ToD ring.

    Vulkoorim Leathers are powerful for all rogues. The fort-penetrating bonus on Black Dragonscale makes it good for all rogues, too.

    If you lose ship buffs and divine power isn't active you'll fall down to the 90% hit rate bracket vs AC 60 foes. -23 AB if you have aggro, you'd struggle to even land radiance vs some foes with that.
    Against epic trash I rarely have DP/Yugo pots going. It's just not worth it, they have terrible AC, nearly all of them. I'm usually at 55 or so AB when lightly buffed. And let's not even mention what happens when you used improved destruction on a +60 AC mob.

    You're seriously overstating the AC the average mob has. I gave you a breakdown of a seriously high AB I use only on targets that warrant it. For your general trash mob, above 50 is good enough; once radiance lands, their AC plummets, and you get all the nice AB bonuses from sneak attack. Also note that the attack sequence gives +0/+0/+5/+10, and that a RadII proc is at least a +15 to attack, making that issue a bit harder to calculate. Simply put, landing radiance is very, very easy.

    My criticisms of dex/int rogues was for general purpose (ie, without ideal AB gear sets) and the impact of missing 5-10 damage/hit (which is going to be 5-15% DPS depending on foe/gear).
    Given identical gear, ~8 points lower damage per hit is a negligible loss of damage for a rogue, when their SA dice, weapon effects, and base damage combined are doing +180 average.

    Why only take 12 strength though? With that gear surely you have 36 points available, I can only assume that you have 18 base int which seems overkill when you could have 16 base strength and 16 base int instead and free up an inventory slot or not rely on yugo pots constantly. Different strokes for different folks though I suppose.
    I have 14 base INT with 4 level ups.

    12 + 3 tome
    17 + 1 level + 3 tome (to qualify for ISA)
    17 + 4 tome (to qualify for Epic Toughness)
    14 + 4 level + 3 tome (51 assassinate DC is insanely effective)
    8 + 2 tome
    8 + 2 tome

    I don't use Yugo pots a lot. They're not helpful enough in most cases.

    Overall, you're dead right, with an ideal gearset you can happily have 12 or 14 base strength on an intelligence based rogue
    My previous life was STR-based. Once I had all the gear to have a high AB and other things, I lowered my STR to get a better Assassinate DC, and higher HP.

    I'm not talking about the viability of rogues with less gear, because I don't have such a rogue. Higher STR, however, will not turn a welfare-equipped rogue into anything impressive.

  14. #274
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qezuzu View Post
    That's exactly one gear slot I mentioned, other than Abishai/ToD ring.

    Vulkoorim Leathers are powerful for all rogues. The fort-penetrating bonus on Black Dragonscale makes it good for all rogues, too.

    Against epic trash I rarely have DP/Yugo pots going. It's just not worth it, they have terrible AC, nearly all of them. I'm usually at 55 or so AB when lightly buffed. And let's not even mention what happens when you used improved destruction on a +60 AC mob.

    You're seriously overstating the AC the average mob has. I gave you a breakdown of a seriously high AB I use only on targets that warrant it. For your general trash mob, above 50 is good enough; once radiance lands, their AC plummets, and you get all the nice AB bonuses from sneak attack. Also note that the attack sequence gives +0/+0/+5/+10, and that a RadII proc is at least a +15 to attack, making that issue a bit harder to calculate. Simply put, landing radiance is very, very easy.

    Given identical gear, ~8 points lower damage per hit is a negligible loss of damage for a rogue, when their SA dice, weapon effects, and base damage combined are doing +180 average.

    I have 14 base INT with 4 level ups.

    12 + 3 tome
    17 + 1 level + 3 tome (to qualify for ISA)
    17 + 4 tome (to qualify for Epic Toughness)
    14 + 4 level + 3 tome (51 assassinate DC is insanely effective)
    8 + 2 tome
    8 + 2 tome

    I don't use Yugo pots a lot. They're not helpful enough in most cases.

    My previous life was STR-based. Once I had all the gear to have a high AB and other things, I lowered my STR to get a better Assassinate DC, and higher HP.

    I'm not talking about the viability of rogues with less gear, because I don't have such a rogue. Higher STR, however, will not turn a welfare-equipped rogue into anything impressive.
    When ISA is fixed to be multi pickable will you drop con down and dump epic toughness? What is all the HP for? Can't help but notice that you could have exactly the same outcome for dex/con/int if you had 14/16/16/16 as starting stats with 2 level ups in intelligence, 1 in con, 2 in dex. That's throwing +1 att/dam and some skill points out the window for no benefit (unless you're halfling?).
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  15. #275
    Community Member Rogann's Avatar
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    Lessered and added 'max dps' portion to the post. If you see any issues about the ED choices plz tell me.

  16. #276
    Community Member Hathorian's Avatar
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    nice! I think the build gives +9d6 SA, not +6d6 SA as listed. DPS would be insane with SA hitting.

  17. #277
    Community Member Rogann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hathorian View Post
    nice! I think the build gives +9d6 SA, not +6d6 SA as listed. DPS would be insane with SA hitting.
    Yea the build gives 9d6 but the actual ED gives 6d6. However Improved SA is bugged atm so im only gaining 6d6.

  18. #278
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    Just looking at the setup, It's a very nice design. It's awesome that you can still have all that utility of a rogue, with as much dps as most any barb. And the whole Improved Sneak attack thing? Umm big freakin woop.

    However, with the changes to precision, is it possible that (against heavy fort mobs) that it would out-dps Power Attack? I'd think even against 50% fort it would out-do it totally. This is only an assumption though, I haven't bothered to do the numbers. This may be a thought for anyone wanting to do this build as a Human, though. I'd honestly like to see the numbers.

  19. #279
    Community Member destiny4405's Avatar
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    how would you use reign without any songs?
    Jesus saves. Everyone else rounds to nearest 5%.

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  20. #280
    Community Member Vengenance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogann View Post
    This build is about MAX dps if you didnt notice...
    Max DPS for a rogue is maximizing your opportunity to get SA damage. The "Full Retard" DPS machine while does amazing numbers when getting SA damage does "Junk" numbers as soon as it grabs aggro.

    The problem with Strength Based builds is they are more difficult to manage aggro with; you need a very good tank or barb in your group or you have to constantly manage your aggro. I believe I even read in this post at how you always grab aggro away from other players (this is a bad thing, not something to brag about btw).

    If you're not maximizing your opportunity to get SA damage then you're better off playing a Barbarian for big numbers. A balanced build is much better imo and will deliver more DPS overtime than this monstrousity. This comes from someone who has also played a dex based rogue to cap and a strength based rogue to cap.
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