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  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogann View Post
    99% O_o The majority of people saying my builds bad are dex/int rogues with no gear....
    How do you know we have no gear. We're in the forums.

    derp you haz no int i are haz assassinate and do traps.
    You're seriously underestimating the power of a high-DC assassinate. Being able to instantly kill two epic mobs every 15 seconds or so is quite a lot of power.

    I played a rogue from start to finish and got him max geared.
    So have I.

    [quote]One that is known to be one of the best on the server. I personally dont think highly of myself.

    *snicker*

    I just love to play rogue and want to let people know rogues are dps first traps second.
    Rogues are not "DPS and traps". It is not like Rogues are just fighters with evasion, less feats and trap skills. Your build does not give up trapping (traps are laughably easy to do), but does give up a useable Assassinate, stealth (I can attest to its comical overpoweredness in epic elite), bluff/diplomacy (your OP never mentioned how you would handle the crazy amounts of aggro you would pull. Bluff is also OP for for pulling mobs).

    I am not saying your build is viable. You're built for DPS, and DPS is one of the most important things. But, once you tote it as " the only real rogue", misrepresent dex/int rogues as having sub-300 HP and unable to handle bosses (it's comically easy to make a rogue do absurd DPS) and downplay rogues' signature abilities that are both effective and make the class stand out, you'll get a lot of flak.

    You seem to dislike dex/int rogues. I dislike rogues that are practically impossible to tell apart from other classes.

  2. #242
    Community Member Quarterling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogann View Post
    99% O_o The majority of people saying my builds bad are dex/int rogues with no gear.... Herp derp you haz no int i are haz assassinate and do traps.

    I played a rogue from start to finish and got him max geared. One that is known to be one of the best on the server. I personally dont think highly of myself. I just love to play rogue and want to let people know rogues are dps first traps second.

    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post
    I love the whole "One that is known to be one of the best on the server" followed by "I personally dont think highly of myself".

    /fail

    I don't play int/dex rogue, my rogue caps out at 52 strength with temporary buffs etc but I still build my rogue to do more than just be a one trick pony, if I take LD I'll actually be able to hit that Master's Blitz, I'm looking forward to giving it a go.

    Your build isn't close to max DPS, it can't do half the things that better built characters can ... what exactly is the point of it again? About the only thing I see going for you now is that you have good gear, albeit outdated. /clap.
    I don't play an int/dex rogue either. I play a strength rogue that can get a very good intelligence without gimping str, dex, or con.

    Also, the point of a rogue isn't to do just one or two things (as Wax_on_Wax_off put it, a one-trick pony) e.g. DPS and traps. A "good" rogue will use themselves to their max potential. If you aren't making 100% out of your character, then you aren't living up to what you could possibly achieve.

    You also might want to rename yourself to "Below Average DPS". You're missing out on the 5d6 from Shadowdancer, and 6d6 from two feats of Improved Sneak Attack (granted it is currently bugged). Eleven extra sneak attack dice are missing from your rogue that other rogues will have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qezuzu View Post
    You're seriously underestimating the power of a high-DC assassinate. Being able to instantly kill two epic mobs every 15 seconds or so is quite a lot of power.
    With doublestrike beginning to become more prominent, you can often even pull off a 3-kill-assassinate every once in a while!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogann View Post
    One that is known to be one of the best on the server. I personally dont think highly of myself.
    Last edited by Quarterling; 07-07-2012 at 04:40 PM.
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  3. #243
    Community Member Xalir's Avatar
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    In epic levels your build will be more and more behind a well-builded assassin. With the shadowdancer tree any assassin who focus on INT will clear entire rooms way faster than you while doing nearly the same DPS on bosses.

  4. #244
    Community Member Quarterling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xalir View Post
    In epic levels your build will be more and more behind a well-builded assassin. With the shadowdancer tree any assassin who focus on INT will clear entire rooms way faster than you while doing nearly the same DPS on bosses.
    Or more DPS for that matter. Remember that other Rogann is missing out on 11d6 sneak attack dice.
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  5. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xalir View Post
    In epic levels your build will be more and more behind a well-builded assassin. With the shadowdancer tree any assassin who focus on INT will clear entire rooms way faster than you while doing nearly the same DPS on bosses.
    Shadow Manipulation is also extremely powerful. It has an infinite range (select a mob, activate, watch) and a good DC. The dominated mob draws aggro, allowing your party to come in and target casters/divines before those mobs have a chance to cause damage. It's also stellar for solo play; dominate, come in, assassinate, retreat. That's 3 mobs killed without getting damaged. I forgot if mobs will follow you if you assassinated while they were aggroed on your dominated mob, if you don't break stealth.

  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quarterling View Post
    You're missing out on the 5d6 from Shadowdancer, and 6d6 from two feats of Improved Sneak Attack (granted it is currently bugged). Eleven extra sneak attack dice are missing from your rogue that other rogues will have.
    It's only possible to take Improved Sneak Attack once, and Shadowdancer gives 6d6 (level 0 counts as a level).

  7. #247
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qezuzu View Post
    It's only possible to take Improved Sneak Attack once, and Shadowdancer gives 6d6 (level 0 counts as a level).
    Improved Sneak Attack is supposed to be multi-pickable though, hopefully this will get fixed soon. 9d6 is 31.5 damage/hit that the OP is missing out on which is very much not "MAX DPS ROGUE" like the title claims.
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  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post
    Improved Sneak Attack is supposed to be multi-pickable though, hopefully this will get fixed soon. 9d6 is 31.5 damage/hit that the OP is missing out on which is very much not "MAX DPS ROGUE" like the title claims.
    Go dump STR on your rogue. Don't you want to take additional 6d6 SA damage? They you HAVE TO DUMP STR.

    Just look. You need 21 DEX. How much can you make at start on YOUR human/half-elf? 16 - max(and doesn't worth it, 6 points for +2 DEX). 15? Even with +4 Tome you have to raise DEX twice. Think - you lost 2 points of STR.

    These 6d6(when bug will be fixed) make halfling/elven rogue much more useful.

    At last. Khopesh should be in Kensai's hands, not rogue's ones.

    When I just saw prereq = 21 DEX I thought - it is time of DEX rogues.

  9. #249
    Community Member arroyo's Avatar
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    On early stages of Beta, Shadowdancer Lv2 innate was DEX to-hit with any weapon, and Lv4 innate was DEX dmg with any weapon. During that Phase 1, I even thought about dumping STR. But it was replaced by Shadow Fade (meh) and Ddoor (OK).

    Reason being most people complained about SD as pigeon-hole for DEX builds. So Devs replaced for the current innates, and said something about having such options on the new Enhancements pass. Gotta wait and see.

    On the 'MAX DPS' and AoE attacks subject, when mobs are CC'd it's just amazing. Don't forget Momentum Swing hits for +5[w] with increased crit range, and Lay Waste is also +5[w] with increased crit multiplier. Food for thought.
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  10. #250
    Community Member brzytki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AirbornedChild View Post
    Go dump STR on your rogue. Don't you want to take additional 6d6 SA damage? They you HAVE TO DUMP STR.

    Just look. You need 21 DEX. How much can you make at start on YOUR human/half-elf? 16 - max(and doesn't worth it, 6 points for +2 DEX). 15? Even with +4 Tome you have to raise DEX twice. Think - you lost 2 points of STR.

    These 6d6(when bug will be fixed) make halfling/elven rogue much more useful.

    At last. Khopesh should be in Kensai's hands, not rogue's ones.

    When I just saw prereq = 21 DEX I thought - it is time of DEX rogues.
    I don't think "dump" means what you think it means. Sure, we'll have to sacrifice a few points of STR to raise DEX a little bit higher or put lvl ups in DEX but it's not as bad as you claim it is.

    Halflings/elves have an edge when it comes to DEX req for ISA but still can't compare to human/helf rogues when it comes to all-around usefulness.

    And it's not time for DEX rogues yet. It will come with enhancement pass where we'll have dex mod to damage. Then i think most rogues will be DEX-based and Assassins will dump STR as it won't be of any use for them.

    @ Rogann, LD is certainly better for this build as you have neither high INT nor high DEX to benefit from SD, but it just baffles me that you didn't go for Master Blitz. Also, you should really change the intro as it is no longer "MAX DPS" build (cause you can't change titles on forums), it doesn't even come close.
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  11. #251
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AirbornedChild View Post
    Go dump STR on your rogue. Don't you want to take additional 6d6 SA damage? They you HAVE TO DUMP STR.

    Just look. You need 21 DEX. How much can you make at start on YOUR human/half-elf? 16 - max(and doesn't worth it, 6 points for +2 DEX). 15? Even with +4 Tome you have to raise DEX twice. Think - you lost 2 points of STR.

    These 6d6(when bug will be fixed) make halfling/elven rogue much more useful.

    At last. Khopesh should be in Kensai's hands, not rogue's ones.

    When I just saw prereq = 21 DEX I thought - it is time of DEX rogues.
    I did the math for you already elsewhere, you're just trolling me now. My rogue once capped and adjusted for ISA will have the same max strength as he does now (52 max buffed, somewhat less normally depending on stance and without any ED enhancements or U14 gear).

    Standard RAID Str: 42 (16 base +1 fighter +1 greater adaptability +4 levels +3 tome +7 item +1 competence +2 insight +2 rage +2 madstone +2 yugo +1 LotD)
    Burst: 42 +2 double madstone +6 titan +2 fire stance = 52
    Outside/special raid buffs: 52 +3 primal scream +3 bard song +2 house D pot = 60

    Primal Scream help dex rogues? No. You think the bard will sing a dex song just for you? Forget about it. If I swap over to Legendary Dreadnought you can add another 4 points to that as well. If I can get +8 str/+3 insight items can add another 2 ... 66 strength rogue and qualifying for Improved Sneak Attack, yeah, I guess I should reroll as I dumped it ...

    /fail

    Unfortunately the real rebuke that will fit nicely here is the screenshot of having the feat and such a strength score but not running epic content until U15 so will have to wait on that one. It'll come though, I promise you that.

    Edit: fixed, not 100% on all the new adds, thanks for the help!
    Last edited by wax_on_wax_off; 07-08-2012 at 11:01 AM.
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  12. #252
    Community Member Miow's Avatar
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    I wouldn't include madstone with any stats it's completely useless on a rogue...you cannot do anything ....

  13. #253
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miow View Post
    I wouldn't include madstone with any stats it's completely useless on a rogue...you cannot do anything ....
    Not this again ... Madstone is situational. In easy content, guild/channel runs or raid fights I usually madstone as the extra attack speed, strength, HP and AC with still potent self healing from SF pots far outweighs the costs. In difficult content in a pug group I usually swap to Epic Rock Boots and enjoy my 100% heal scrolls/100% res scrolls etc.

    The important thing to understand about madstone is that the BAB increase that it gives you from 15 to 20 is a significant DPS boost due to the increased attack speed, particularly for a rogue. In a lot of ways its much more important for a rogue to Madstone than what it is for a fighter to as a fighter already has 20 BAB. Divine Power clickies are an alternative to this but are far from ideal in a raid setting as the gear swaps/activation times in a vacuum raid (of which there are enough) cause a noticeable DPS penalty.

    Edit: that said, madstone is a bit broken at the moment since U14 though it will hopefully be fixed, hasn't stopped me using it continuously on my current rogue life though (almost 400 HP at level 14? Yes please).
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  14. #254
    Community Member MalarKan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post
    Standard RAID Str: 42 (16 base +1 fighter +1 greater adaptability +4 levels +3 tome +7 item +1 competence +2 insight +2 rage +2 madstone +2 yugo +1 LotD)
    Burst: 42 +2 double madstone +6 titan +2 fire stance = 52
    Outside/special raid buffs: 52 +3 primal scream +4 bard song +3 house D pot = 62
    just letting you know that the bard son Inspire Excellence is Competence bonus, same as today's +1 exceptional, and they are not stacking, so bard song is actually a +3 if you already have an "exceptional +1" bonus equiped.

    cheers!
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  15. #255
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MalarKan View Post
    just letting you know that the bard son Inspire Excellence is Competence bonus, same as today's +1 exceptional, and they are not stacking, so bard song is actually a +3 if you already have an "exceptional +1" bonus equiped.

    cheers!
    Fixed! Obviously this over sight completely negates the original message >>
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  16. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post
    Primal Scream help dex rogues? No. You think the bard will sing a dex song just for you? Forget about it. If I swap over to Legendary Dreadnought you can add another 4 points to that as well. If I can get +8 str/+3 insight items can add another 2 ... 66 strength rogue and qualifying for Improved Sneak Attack, yeah, I guess I should reroll as I dumped it ...

    /fail

    Unfortunately the real rebuke that will fit nicely here is the screenshot of having the feat and such a strength score but not running epic content until U15 so will have to wait on that one. It'll come though, I promise you that.

    Edit: fixed, not 100% on all the new adds, thanks for the help!
    But what will prevent DEX rogue to improve this stat? Nothing. SD - DEX/INT. You know it.

    Edit. Bard should sing all stat songs. To be fair. Is it wrong? Just think. All stats will be better. Better DC, better hit/damage. Better AC.

    Noob. You should know. More DEX = more Refles save. But you are one of such people who think that saves are nothing comparing to HP.

    HP is nothing without saves.
    Last edited by AirbornedChild; 07-08-2012 at 11:13 AM.

  17. #257
    Community Member xveganrox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AirbornedChild View Post
    But what will prevent DEX rogue to improve this stat? Nothing. SD - DEX/INT. You know it.

    Edit. Bard should sing all stat songs. To be fair. Is it wrong? Just think. All stats will be better. Better DC, better hit/damage. Better AC.

    Noob. You should know. More DEX = more Refles save. But you are one of such people who think that saves are nothing comparing to HP.

    HP is nothing without saves.
    My rogue took Insightful Reflexes

    And to be fair to the bard - nah. Constitution song, definitely. Strength or Charisma song (based on whether they are melee or caster), definitely. Int/Cha/Wis for casters? Maybe, if they like the casters. But dex? Lol. Bards know that everyone dumps dex =P and giving people +1/2 to reflexes isn't really worth the 30 second cooldown.

    When the enhancement pass comes, and *if* dex rogues get an important buff (like dex to hit and damage), they'll be almost on even footing with strength rogues. The real problem for them is that there are a lot of ways to boost strength and few to boost dexterity - at end-game, dex can't compete with str. I could show you the numbers, but wax_on already did a few posts up.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm all for variety, and hope the enhancement pass makes Dex-based rogues at least somewhat more viable. For the time being, though, it's pretty silly to argue the point.

  18. #258
    Community Member Hathorian's Avatar
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    How did you take Epic toughness with a starting 16 CON? The requirement is 21 CON is it not (with only base, level ups and tomes counting)?

  19. #259
    Community Member Noctus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hathorian View Post
    How did you take Epic toughness with a starting 16 CON? The requirement is 21 CON is it not (with only base, level ups and tomes counting)?
    He invested 2 levelups into it.
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  20. #260
    Community Member Hathorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noctus View Post
    He invested 2 levelups into it.
    why start with 20 strength then? it takes 3 build pts to get from 19 to 20 STR but only 2 build pts to go from 15 to 16 CON. could have saved a build point to go somewhere else. not a big deal i guess.

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