1. The estimate I use is 1 per second. I found a great thread once that broke it down with Rapid Shot, Rapid Reload, every bow type, but I can't find it now. The various threads I just googled seem to all agree for non-repeating BAB 20ers, though.

2. Looking at the data collected through the lense implied by the mechanism that the description of 10k stars provides leads to the following:

First check to see if there is a 2nd projectile using (3*(wismod)+30)%
If there is then is there a 3rd projectile using (3*(wismod)-20)% [Note: this cuts off for Wis<24)
if there was a 3rd projectile is there a 4th using (wismod-15)% [Note: this cuts off for Wis<42)

Hope that this helps and/or spurs more thought.

3. If the functions above are correct we can calculate the expected number of missiles any given Wisdom modifier will provide and graph them.

It turns out that there are two linear functions that describe that curve, for Wisdom<24 where each 2pts of wisdom is worth .03 of an missile and Wisdom>=24 where each 2pts of Wisdom is worth .0566 of a missile.

To decide whether pts in Strength is better for you than points in Wisdom one needs to know how much damage you are doing )on average) per missile. We know that +2Str=1pt damage (we need not consider crits et al because the bonus missile is also affected by them). Assuming that you have a Wisdom>=24 (safe for most monk builds?) then if your average missile is doing more than 1/0.0566=17.67dmg then extra Wisdom is best for you.

Bear in mind that the average missile dmg has to take into account downtime of 10k stars, if any. Let's say you melee half the time then divide your average missile damage by 2. If you use ManyShot then reduce your average missile damage by 25% (assuming 10k->MS->10k).

4. Originally Posted by Thlargir
Looking at the data collected through the lense implied by the mechanism that the description of 10k stars provides leads to the following:

First check to see if there is a 2nd projectile using (3*(wismod)+30)%
If there is then is there a 3rd projectile using (3*(wismod)-20)% [Note: this cuts off for Wis<24)
if there was a 3rd projectile is there a 4th using (wismod-15)% [Note: this cuts off for Wis<42)

Hope that this helps and/or spurs more thought.
hello,

Kinerd has some limit for each number of arrow and its model makes sense.
The problem with yours is that there is not limits.
your % of arrows x2 starts at 30% then go up, go up ...
Kinerd used a 45% limit on arrow x2.

So some comment about kinerd model:
2 arrows is 20% + Wis modifier * 5%, max 45%
3 arrows is (Wis modifier - 5) * 2.5%, max 25% - req 24 wis (7 wis mod)
4 arrows is (Wis modifier - 15) * 1.3%, max ???, starting at 42 stat (16 wis mod)
I added all percentage weighted per number of arrows and divided per 100 to get the average number of arrow per shot for different wis mod.

ex:
wis = 20
wis mod = 5
% arrow x1 = 55 %
% arrow x2 = 45 %
% arrow x3 = 0 %
% arrow x4 = 0 %
avg per shot = (55*1 + 45*2 ) /100 = 1.45 arrows per shot during 10KS

wis = 30
wis mod = 10
% arrow x1 = 42.5 %
% arrow x2 = 45 %
% arrow x3 = 12.5 %
% arrow x4 = 0 %
avg per shot = 1.7 arrows per shot during 10KS

wis = 40
wis mod = 15
% arrow x1 = 30 %
% arrow x2 = 45 %
% arrow x3 = 25 %
% arrow x4 = 0 %
avg per shot = 1.95 arrows per shot during 10KS

wis = 50
wis mod = 20
% arrow x1 = 23.5 %
% arrow x2 = 45 %
% arrow x3 = 25 %
% arrow x4 = 6.5 %
avg per shot = 2.145 arrows per shot during 10KS

Do you guys get the same values ?
I thought that we would be closer to MS (4 arrows).

5. Originally Posted by kaobang
The problem with yours is that there is not limits.
I simplified them as the limit is not reached until wis bonus = 24 which is a Wisdom of 58 which is somewhat impractical.
 I re-read your post and now think that I understand your limit comment better - please see "cascade" comment below. The limit I refer to above is the limit on the 2nd missile function.

Originally Posted by kaobang
I thought that we would be closer to MS (4 arrows).
As did I, but I had noticed while using 10kstars that I was getting nowhere near as many missiles as MS (it felt like about half) - thus I built the model, and sure enough with my current Wisdom I am getting about 1.75

The expected numbers of missiles that you quote match up very closely with those I calculated from my model. For others using the model bear in mind that it is a cascade (thus if you score a second missile you have to reduce the number of single missile strikes by that number when calculating expected missiles, and so on for a third missile,..)

Please also note that for Wisdom above 42 (that is when the 4th missile potential kicks in) the rate of increase of missiles drops from 0.0566 extra missiles per two Wisdom to 0.05 extra missiles per two Wisdom. This was a relatively small difference that I did not originally break it out.

6. Originally Posted by Thlargir
I simplified them as the limit is not reached until wis bonus = 24 which is a Wisdom of 58 which is somewhat impractical.
 I re-read your post and now think that I understand your limit comment better - please see "cascade" comment below. The limit I refer to above is the limit on the 2nd missile function.

As did I, but I had noticed while using 10kstars that I was getting nowhere near as many missiles as MS (it felt like about half) - thus I built the model, and sure enough with my current Wisdom I am getting about 1.75

The expected numbers of missiles that you quote match up very closely with those I calculated from my model. For others using the model bear in mind that it is a cascade (thus if you score a second missile you have to reduce the number of single missile strikes by that number when calculating expected missiles, and so on for a third missile,..)

Please also note that for Wisdom above 42 (that is when the 4th missile potential kicks in) the rate of increase of missiles drops from 0.0566 extra missiles per two Wisdom to 0.05 extra missiles per two Wisdom. This was a relatively small difference that I did not originally break it out.
It is less than manyshot, but this is also active for a larger proportion of time than MS, and MS and 10k aren't competing using one doesn't forgo the other, the other can be used in the first's cooldown.

The best way to compare it to many shot is look on average how many arrows per minute each does with cooldowns taken into account.

7. The biggest change that having 10k stars provides for me is how often I use manyshot now. No longer do I hold back using manyshot for the 'important' fights. Now that I have 10k stars, I use manyshot all the time, because I am not that concerned about it being on a timer if some big nasty shows up unexpectedly, since I have 10k stars and decent melee, and chances are that manyshot will be off timer soon enough to be useful anyway.

That factor is very difficult to work into any equation, and does favor strength a bit.

What I do is put all that I can comfortably afford into wisdom. As long as I get 2 arrows consistently, and 3 arrows fairly often, I am happy. I do not see the need to go crazy on wisdom for a slight increase in 10k stars from that point, since my main dps still comes from manyshot. Don't get me wrong, I still aim for a high 30's / early 40's wisdom, I just don't kill myself trying to get there.

8. Originally Posted by Diyon
The best way to compare it to many shot is look on average how many arrows per minute each does with cooldowns taken into account.
Apologies for not being clearer, I was not trying to compare 10k with MS, but rather figure out if a non-melee ranged could be viable. If 10k approached MS in effectiveness the answer was going to be yes. Having it be half as effective makes it more problematical.

Originally Posted by Diyon
It is less than manyshot, but this is also active for a larger proportion of time than MS, and MS and 10k aren't competing using one doesn't forgo the other, the other can be used in the first's cooldown.
This not quite right. In the MS->10k case you are left with a 10sec gap (when you kick off MS the 10k timer starts, but it is a 30s timer and MS is done in 20s).

Going the other way 10k->MS works as expected because the MS timer is 30s when invoked this way and thus times out as 10k ends. You end up using that 10secs as a way to replenish ki for the next round of 10k.

For example, using arm-waving generalisations:
Assume MS is x1.5 as effective as the melee you want to match, then 10k is x0.75, and your monkcher melee is x.5 then you overall effectiveness would be:
((1.5*20)+(0.75*60)+(0.5*10))/90 ~ 90% as good as your target melee

9. Originally Posted by JasonJi72
What I do is put all that I can comfortably afford into wisdom. As long as I get 2 arrows consistently, and 3 arrows fairly often, I am happy. I do not see the need to go crazy on wisdom for a slight increase in 10k stars from that point, since my main dps still comes from manyshot. Don't get me wrong, I still aim for a high 30's / early 40's wisdom, I just don't kill myself trying to get there.
Makes sense, to be at two expected arrows per shot you need Wisdom=40, and with that Wisdom you will see a quarter of your shots with 3 arrows (and of course a quarter with only one).

10. Originally Posted by kaobang
Do you guys get the same values ?
I opened up my spreadsheet to check and I have at least 2 distinct models from what I posted here, so the only thing I know for sure is that we need more data, especially in the high end.

Luckily, there's a lot more stat to go around since FR, so if I ever get tired of my wizard I'll be on my monkcher trying to pump the Wisdom. 42+ stat is definitely where it gets interesting.

11. So what is max wisdom?

18 base+4 tome+4 enh (using human type)+1 LotD+2 ship+3 exc+2 yugo+8 item+5 lvl+6 destiny+2 complete=55? could probably get 56. Would be interesting to see. Though it wouldn't be ideal since you would be giving up a lot.

12. Traded out one of my 2 toughness feats on my pure monk to take Zen Archery. I was tired of plinking away at pillars in LoB with a shuriken (and I couldn't find a smiting one to save my life). I was sitting at 46 wisdom in fire stance, and I saw a decent amount of 4x arrow shots.

Code:
```18 base
4 tome
4 levels
8 item
2 captsone
3 enhancements
1 exceptional
2 insight
2 ship
2 yugo
2 bard
-2 fire stance```
Since being proficient doesn't matter, it was certainly a nice change of pace. 10k stars + LD haste boost was great for pillars.

13. Originally Posted by jsm123
So what is max wisdom?

18 base+4 tome+4 enh (using human type)+1 LotD+2 ship+3 exc+2 yugo+8 item+5 lvl+6 destiny+2 complete=55? could probably get 56. Would be interesting to see. Though it wouldn't be ideal since you would be giving up a lot.
I can hit 52 in water stance and still have 40 str. That's with 0 denstiny points, and non-max wisdom on a halfling (put 2 level points elsewhere). If I was a 36 point build human I could likely hit 56 without missing out on anything.

Code:
```18 base
4 tome
6 levels
8 item
2 capstone
4 enhancements
1 exceptional
3 insight
2 ship
2 yugo
2 bard
4 water stance```
There's an easy 56. Leave out the bard and it's still 54. Change to fire stance and it's still 48.

I do have primal scream to add +4 to my str though, so factor that in for having a higher than you'd think str.

14. you could also theoretically get a +2 alchemical bonus to wisdom if you use a house C bow, i think?

15. Originally Posted by Jaid314
you could also theoretically get a +2 alchemical bonus to wisdom if you use a house C bow, i think?
Any house C weapon with tier 2 water gets +2 wisdom. I'm currently working on my handwraps

16. Originally Posted by Jaid314
you could also theoretically get a +2 alchemical bonus to wisdom if you use a house C bow, i think?
Yep I have an alchemical cold iron earth/water/earth aligned planes spotted longbow, it's the bomb bringing competitive DPS and probably the best weapon based CC in the game.

17. Has anyone gone back to check this now that it's possible to get upwards of 60 Wisdom with Level 28?

18. Originally Posted by redspecter23
Just did a small amount of testing to add some data. Over 100 shots with 48 wisdom

1 star: 10 (10%)
2 stars: 51 (51%)
3 stars: 33 (33%)
4 stars: 6 (6%)

I did a very small amount of testing with 50 wisdom as I couldn't hold the buff for long. I was trying to see if perhaps you could get a 5 star shot with 50 wisdom. Perhaps an extra potential star is added at each 10 wisdom interval as the OP didn't see any 4 shots with only 32 wis, but with only a couple minutes to test, I didn't see any 5 star shots at 50 wisdom. Inconclusive. If I can find a longer lasting buff, I'll try again at 50 wis.
When I get home tonight, I will get on my monk and see if I have 10k stars on him. If I do, I will do some testing since he has a standing 50 wisdom at level 24.

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