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  1. #161
    Community Member Jaid314's Avatar
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    minor side note: flame turret is a summon. your enhancements don't boost it regardless.

    a 6 level arti splash will still have terrible damage comparatively. a level 20 arti has a caster level of 20. a level 6 arti has a caster level of 6.

    so, if you're dishing out 8-26 + 1-8 per level (that's 6d4+2, +1d8 per level if i'm not mistaken. but it might also be 2d10+6, +1d8 per level), your level 6 arti has a base damage of 16-90 damage, while the level 20 arti has 28-186 damage, before factoring in spell power etc.

    with that being said, i've heard rumours that the rune arm may not specifically check your artificer spell level, but that it just checks if you're an artificer for use, then uses your highest spell level (or possibly highest arcane, only seen this mentioned with wizards). i have no idea if it's true or not, but if it is then you can get much better damage, though still only ~2/3 what a pure artificer might pull off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaid314 View Post
    minor side note: flame turret is a summon. your enhancements don't boost it regardless.

    a 6 level arti splash will still have terrible damage comparatively. a level 20 arti has a caster level of 20. a level 6 arti has a caster level of 6.

    so, if you're dishing out 8-26 + 1-8 per level (that's 6d4+2, +1d8 per level if i'm not mistaken. but it might also be 2d10+6, +1d8 per level), your level 6 arti has a base damage of 16-90 damage, while the level 20 arti has 28-186 damage, before factoring in spell power etc.

    with that being said, i've heard rumours that the rune arm may not specifically check your artificer spell level, but that it just checks if you're an artificer for use, then uses your highest spell level (or possibly highest arcane, only seen this mentioned with wizards). i have no idea if it's true or not, but if it is then you can get much better damage, though still only ~2/3 what a pure artificer might pull off.
    Well needless to say a 6 arti is going to do less Rune Arm damage than a 20, not really what I was digging for .

    In the OP the near worst case 6 arti does around half damage. of a near perfect case Arti 20... But the comparison (no offense) is unrealistic in the extreme (Nor do I think he was trying for realistic). First it assumes the 20 arti is going full out force (reasonable) and playing in content that only saves 5% of the time (doesn't seem realisitic but it's his assumption so okay). While the 6 arti is apparently going out of his way to do as little damage as possible (extremely unrealistic, only carrying a lore stick?).

    Nothing against the OP this is extremely commonplace in forums where people like to paint with the most contrasting brush strokes possible.

    No big deal and again I'm not trying to insult the OP, but I'd like to see how a 6 arti w/ very high Int, force specced, greater evoc specced, Kinetic enhanced and carrying sticks for 16%-18% crits and all but the highest 2 tiers multiplier, with a couple hundred force SPwr from 90 manipulation plus a casting stick/implement bonus

    Terrible or not is a subjective conclusion. For a 6 level investment that also gives a bunch of other benefits to a multiclass build it might be a great source of additional damage, as I understand it you can cast spells and SLA's while charging the arm (I could be totally wrong, but I've read that elsewhere).

    To be sure it's a build that would fit into that "unusual builds" thread someone started.

    Edit: too bad about the turret, I guess that means fire enhancements don't work for it either.
    Last edited by IronClan; 12-29-2012 at 06:38 PM.
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  3. #163
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    Stupid question to ask, but: is there a way to increase the side damage added to main weapon?
    Let's say that Though Spike add 1-2 force damage to main hand weapon. Is it possible to increase it by any means?

  4. #164
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    Since the turret is a summons I wonder if Augment Summons does anything for it?

    There's some interesting fodder for a MrCow like scientific inquiry here...

    Best Case 6 level art multiclass Rune Arm DPS.

    Does the turret benefit from Summon's buffs (Feat and ED twist)? I suppose this probably doesn't boost anything but the HP, and those things last a beating already so maybe not usefull even if they do.

    Jaid314's rumor he heard that Rune Arm's might still go up with arcane caster levels. (kinda doubting this one as it would make 2 Arti splashes rather OP)

    Wish I had an Arti, I'd spend some time on the Summons/Turret buff question...
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Since the turret is a summons I wonder if Augment Summons does anything for it?
    Yes it does. I'm too lazy to dig up the quote but Eladrin had posted once that augment summons did work on the turret just like any other summons or hireling.

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaid314
    with that being said, i've heard rumours that the rune arm may not specifically check your artificer spell level, but that it just checks if you're an artificer for use, then uses your highest spell level (or possibly highest arcane, only seen this mentioned with wizards). i have no idea if it's true or not, but if it is then you can get much better damage, though still only ~2/3 what a pure artificer might pull off.
    I have not tested this since Menace of the Underdark came out, but there was a bug that allowed a player to use their highest caster level when they fired a Rune Arm, so long as they fired it in the middle of manually fired Repeating Crossbow volley. This would allow a character like an 18 bard/2 artificer to fire a Rune Arm at Bardic Caster Level 18 (or 19 if they were a Spellsinger) if they timed their Rune Arm shots.
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  7. #167

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    Before going into too much more detail, let me point out that all calculations were done before the changes to the spell power system. Along with those changes, my understanding is that Rune Arms got a variable spell power penalty that hasn't really been fully reverse engineered. I haven't done any specific testing on those, nor have I seen anyone else try to get an exhaustive set of tests put together. Given this, the exact numbers should be taken with a grain of salt. At a coarse level, a lot of these relative comparisons will be roughly the same -- it seems like the aim of the spellpower penalties on rune arms was to keep their power level roughly the same -- but the details have likely shifted.

    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    In the OP the near worst case 6 arti does around half damage. of a near perfect case Arti 20... But the comparison (no offense) is unrealistic in the extreme (Nor do I think he was trying for realistic). First it assumes the 20 arti is going full out force (reasonable) and playing in content that only saves 5% of the time (doesn't seem realisitic but it's his assumption so okay). While the 6 arti is apparently going out of his way to do as little damage as possible (extremely unrealistic, only carrying a lore stick?).
    When you say "In the OP the near worst case 6 arti does around half damage. of a near perfect case Arti 20...", it makes me think you may be misreading the OP. There's a section where I *only* map out base damage, without any enhancement or crits.

    Quote Originally Posted by cforce View Post

    Artificer 6 averages -- Tier I/II/III/IV/V
    Blast, Exploding Shot, Lash: 16/25/34/43/52
    Bolts, Storm: 32/50/102/172/204
    Spiral: 21/34/78/140/176
    Shot (Elemental): 16/50/102/172/256
    Shot (Force): 10.5/34/78/140/220

    <16 snipped>

    Artificer 20 averages -- Tier I/II/III/IV/V
    Blast, Exploding Shot, Lash: 37/60/83/106/129
    Bolts, Storm: 74/120/252/424/516
    Spiral: 49/76/183/336/428
    Shot (Elemental): 37/120/252/424/645
    Shot (Force): 24.5/76/183/336/535
    Everything above is independent of crits, enhancements/spell power, and DC -- just a base comparison of the dice.

    I then went on to paint an example of a optimized level 20 with a "splashy" level 6, below, where I did make some assumptions that the 6 had a lot less going for it -- but the damage differential there was far worse than half:

    Quote Originally Posted by cforce View Post
    Items/Enhancements: Items and enhancements that increase spell damage or create spell criticals also affect rune arm damage. This means that base damage can be increased to 2.25x with a full investment in the corresponding <X manipulation> line, and a clickie of Superior <type> VI -- and a critical chance of 18%, with a critical multiplier of 2.75x, is possible with full enhancement investment and a major lore item. With this kind of across-the-board investment, a Artificer 20 can get up to 645 x 2.25 x 1.315 (averaged crit) = ~1900 damage per shot. There are a few ways to push this even higher, of course -- the eardweller, for example.

    Taking this further, let's do a bit of comparison of two scenarios: in the first, we have our level 20 artificer with full investment in damage enhancements, and a decent DC, in content where he manages to get to "failed saves on a 19". In the second case, we have someone who has splashed artificer 6 and made *no* spell damage enhancement selections or rune arm enhancements. (We'll still assume that they're smart and use a clickie and manage to slot a Major Lore item, though.)

    Level 20 "Full Damage" Arti: 1900 (above) x 0.975 (one made save in 20) = ~1850 every ~6 seconds, or about +310 DPS
    "Splash 6" Arti with no damage enhancements: 260 base x 1.75 (clickie) x 1.09 (averaged crit) x 0.75 (10 saves made in 20) = ~370 every ~7 seconds, or about +50 DPS.
    That being said, it's not to hard to do the math, here. We can simply give the 6-level shot the same series of assumptions we made for the level 20 wiuth regard to DC, spell power, and crits:

    Level 20: 645 x 2.25 x 1.315 x 0.975 = 1850 (or about +310 DPS)
    Level 6: 270 x 2.25 x 1.315 x 0.975 = ~780 (or about +130 DPS)

    As I said before, with the changes to spell power, thee will no longer be right on, but it should at least give an idea of the relative power. With all other factors (spellpower, crits, DC) equal, a level 6 splash would do about 40% of the rune arm damage of a level 20.

    (I'd be curious to see the hypothesis that it's simply "highest caster level" confirmed or denied, as well, but I strongly suspect that it's only artificer level -- otherwise there'd be some pretty ridiculously overpowered Wizard 18/Arti 2 variants running around.)
    Last edited by cforce; 01-03-2013 at 02:06 PM.
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  8. #168
    Community Member Book_O_Dragons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cforce View Post
    (I'd be curious to see the hypothesis that it's simply "highest caster level" confirmed or denied, as well, but I strongly suspect that it's only artificer level -- otherwise there'd be some pretty ridiculously overpowered Wizard 19/Arti 1 variants running around.)
    You can't use rune arms until lvl 2 arty
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  9. #169

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    Quote Originally Posted by Book_O_Dragons View Post
    You can't use rune arms until lvl 2 arty
    Heh, good point, although I think the gist is the same; Wizard 18/Arti 2, then.
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  10. #170
    Community Member Singular's Avatar
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    I'm pretty sure that rune arm damage scales with level, regardless of whether you remain an arty or not. It's just that you'd be firing the rune arm slower b/c of the lack of rune arm enhancements.

  11. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Singular View Post
    I'm pretty sure that rune arm damage scales with level, regardless of whether you remain an arty or not. It's just that you'd be firing the rune arm slower b/c of the lack of rune arm enhancements.
    I'm pretty sure that's not the case but as no one has tested is anywhere I can see, well... who knows.

    All I will say is a Arti splash on a Archmagi evoker with full force SP lines and caster sticks/Lore etc. who also gets full rune arm use minus the Arti specific Rune arm enhancements, would be an SP saving, Force damage doling juggernaut.

    Rume Arm, Heavy Repeater with some CC affixes like Frozen or Erosive or Sunburst, with Insightful Damage plus the imbue from the RArm Maxed/Empowered/Quickened Force missle SLA's. Don't cast much of anything that has a save except firewall and maybe do some secondary archmagi/focus + DC items for moderately effective web... Couple that with a full powered RArm even without the enhancements.

    Anyway all probably a pipe dream, because I'm pretty sure they intended rune arm use to be like caster level for spells, and not character level for (say) Wands...
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  12. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    I'm pretty sure that's not the case but as no one has tested is anywhere I can see, well... who knows.

    All I will say is a Arti splash on a Archmagi evoker with full force SP lines and caster sticks/Lore etc. who also gets full rune arm use minus the Arti specific Rune arm enhancements, would be an SP saving, Force damage doling juggernaut.

    Rume Arm, Heavy Repeater with some CC affixes like Frozen or Erosive or Sunburst, with Insightful Damage plus the imbue from the RArm Maxed/Empowered/Quickened Force missle SLA's. Don't cast much of anything that has a save except firewall and maybe do some secondary archmagi/focus + DC items for moderately effective web... Couple that with a full powered RArm even without the enhancements.

    Anyway all probably a pipe dream, because I'm pretty sure they intended rune arm use to be like caster level for spells, and not character level for (say) Wands...
    Honestly that build wouldn't be bad anyways if you were looking mainly to add a class to Wizard for trapping. You'd lose the evasion from rogue but gain Scroll and Potions +1 as well as all of the exotic x-bow proficiencies, rapid reload, and rune arm use. I'd still probably rather have evasion but it would be interesting to see in any case.
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  13. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkrok View Post
    Honestly that build wouldn't be bad anyways if you were looking mainly to add a class to Wizard for trapping. You'd lose the evasion from rogue but gain Scroll and Potions +1 as well as all of the exotic x-bow proficiencies, rapid reload, and rune arm use. I'd still probably rather have evasion but it would be interesting to see in any case.
    My first post in this thread was inspired by the thought of a 2 to 6 arti splash with a force Archmage 18 or 12 (yeah I know 12 wiz 6 arti makes some people cringe). Obviously the 12 wiz 6 arti has room for evasion, but probably 2 monk. Arti 6 and the high INT of the build gives all the rogue skills you could need and then some.

    12 wiz gives bad DC's, but you're only casting firewall and web, and those will get some boost from archmage and focus feats to make them moderately usefull. Lots of feats for meta's. Can buff and haste and self heal assuming WF or "construct essense" feat + Human for the Versatility boost + extra skills and feat..

    6 arti gets you Battle engineer which has lower armored ASF (light armor helps the builds survivability, because it would not be able to carry fanion around) more useful arti spells than just a 2 splash (Flame Turret), and the Machine Gun. You can scroll a bunch of arti spells that are useful buffs (Insightful damage for example or if you can find the scrolls Silver weapons, deadly weapons though I'm not sure if these are inscribe only deals or if they can be cast as buffs from scrolls) The repeater is merely a side show between SLA casts and RArm shots. You get a couple shots in, improved Cursespewer and other CC stuff, Smiter, Distrupter, etc. Or for when you have low SP or need to conserve it.

    2 monk gets you toughness, and resilience, resilience because SLA's do not turn it off, or get longer cooldowns from it, so the only thing you're casting that gets a longer cooldown from resilience is the odd web/haste/buff/firewall/Flame Turret which generally are never spammed anyway.

    I have not gone so far as to see if the PrE enhancements can all be squeezed in, or if secondary focus for web is viable, but the build has a ridiculous number of feats. And yes this would probably be something more to do solo, or as a TR experiment, or within your guild or with friends who know what you're trying to do.

    I have a FvS Elf Arcane archer that also uses light based SLA's with the bow as a DPS "filler" in between cooldowns... I like to stuff things in with a shoe horn, and I might do the 12/6/2 on my slow boat completionist, as a final life. If we figure out if RArm's scale character level and not caster level, that improves the build's SP independant DPS potential very significantly. But I suspect that wont be the case... Still even 130 DPS when rockered into your rotation with Max/Empowered/Quickened force/magic missles and a repeater volley, could be a fine "pew pew" build.
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  14. #174
    Community Member Singular's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    I'm pretty sure that's not the case but as no one has tested is anywhere I can see, well... who knows.

    All I will say is a Arti splash on a Archmagi evoker with full force SP lines and caster sticks/Lore etc. who also gets full rune arm use minus the Arti specific Rune arm enhancements, would be an SP saving, Force damage doling juggernaut.

    Rume Arm, Heavy Repeater with some CC affixes like Frozen or Erosive or Sunburst, with Insightful Damage plus the imbue from the RArm Maxed/Empowered/Quickened Force missle SLA's. Don't cast much of anything that has a save except firewall and maybe do some secondary archmagi/focus + DC items for moderately effective web... Couple that with a full powered RArm even without the enhancements.

    Anyway all probably a pipe dream, because I'm pretty sure they intended rune arm use to be like caster level for spells, and not character level for (say) Wands...
    Oh! You are right - the wiki says "artificer level."
    http://ddowiki.com/page/Rune_Arm#Inc...une_Arm_damage

    That means the only reason to go to level 6 in an artie is to get EF. That might be worth it if you have GS weapons waiting for you, and are planning on using your arcane spells to buff yourself - warmage style.

    So 6 artie+ 12 wiz/sorc + 2 leveling to 20 is probably not an end game build. I'm going to try this for one of my TR lives, but that won't be for a bit. If anyone here is trying it out, I think all of us would be interested!
    Last edited by Singular; 02-12-2013 at 10:16 AM.

  15. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    I'm pretty sure that's not the case but as no one has tested is anywhere I can see, well... who knows.

    All I will say is a Arti splash on a Archmagi evoker with full force SP lines and caster sticks/Lore etc. who also gets full rune arm use minus the Arti specific Rune arm enhancements, would be an SP saving, Force damage doling juggernaut.

    Rume Arm, Heavy Repeater with some CC affixes like Frozen or Erosive or Sunburst, with Insightful Damage plus the imbue from the RArm Maxed/Empowered/Quickened Force missle SLA's. Don't cast much of anything that has a save except firewall and maybe do some secondary archmagi/focus + DC items for moderately effective web... Couple that with a full powered RArm even without the enhancements.

    Anyway all probably a pipe dream, because I'm pretty sure they intended rune arm use to be like caster level for spells, and not character level for (say) Wands...

    I just tested this exact thing on an arti splash I have (His other levels are rogue and fighter, so no caster levels there)after noticing some really wonky damage while sleep RArming the dummy (I love charging during emotes). I'm too tired to go through the numbers, but here's the important stuff (feel free to check for yourself if you doubt it):

    Firing Rune Arm while not attacking will use your artificer level for damage calculation.
    Firing Rune Arm while in any part of any attack animation (swing, reload, cleave, sunder, etc) will use your total character level for damage calculation.

    For an 18/2 Wiz/Arti this basically means that as long as you are swinging or shooting when you fire off that RArm you're hitting just as hard as 20 Arti (just not nearly as often). I can't imagine that something like this is intended, and if tons of 2 Arti splashes start appearing in the world and blasting mobs for 3k damage, it probably won't last long, so use it while you can.
    Last edited by BladeZero; 02-12-2013 at 05:32 AM.

  16. #176
    Community Member Jaid314's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BladeZero View Post
    Firing Rune Arm while not attacking will use your artificer level for damage calculation.
    Firing Rune Arm while in any part of any attack animation (swing, reload, cleave, sunder, etc) will use your total character level for damage calculation.
    have you tested that with fighter or rogue builds, by any chance? if you tested with the wizard build, i'm not sure the caster level would have been a visible enough difference...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaid314 View Post
    have you tested that with fighter or rogue builds, by any chance? if you tested with the wizard build, i'm not sure the caster level would have been a visible enough difference...
    Looks like that's what he tested with, a fighter/rog with arti splash.
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  18. #178
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    I must not have been clear in my post, what I meant is my character is currently an 8 Fighter / 3 Arti / 2 Rogue so there are no other caster levels in my build. The difference on the dummy (who was vuln) was turning 35-45 damage bolts from T3 Recoyle into 90 to 110 damage bolts (I even saw a 126), so it was quite obvious.

    To test it I reset my enhancements and threw on a Hand of the Tombs to make sure I had 0 spellpower and could calculate damage range directly from the tooltip, and so I could get the Reflex Save notice. Then I took a guildmate down into a brawl area and shot him a couple hundred times. The testing was to see whether it was using total character level or highest class level even though my highest class couldn't cast spells.

    For T1 Shots of Hand of the Tombs:

    3 Arti Levels = 7-16 Damage (11.5 Ave)
    8 Fighter Levels = 12-26 Damage (19 Ave)
    13 Char Levels = 17-36 Damage (26.5 Ave)

    This is where it got fun.

    Firing shots while not in an attack animation, I saw 8-15 with the vast majority being 11 or 12.
    Firing shots while in an attack animation, I saw 22-30 with the vast majority being 26 or 27.

    Now we all know dice are weighted and I had always thought this does something like changing a 1D6 into 1D3+3, so that it's impossible to roll straight 1s and have a level 25 fireball to 25 damage. However, my results showed that the damage was weighted both away from minimum rolls and away from maximum rolls.

    I confirmed, several times, that I had nothing increasing fire damage, and the damage range I was getting on the non-attacking, 3 arti level shots was exactly where it should be for shots being weighted towards center. Also, the damage numbers were always orange, if my guildie had been reducing or increasing damage by even one point, they would have been yellow/purple.

    I hope that clears things up for potential arti splashes. Again, the results are very easy to confirm, use your Vet II status to make a 3 Fighter / 2 Barb / 2 Arti, complete whatever that korthos quest is that gets you the first runearm, then drag a friend into the brawl pit and shoot him. Although the numbers will be small, the difference between level 7 shots, level 3 shots, and level 1 shots will be enough.
    Last edited by BladeZero; 02-12-2013 at 08:15 PM.

  19. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by BladeZero View Post
    I just tested this exact thing on an arti splash I have (His other levels are rogue and fighter, so no caster levels there)after noticing some really wonky damage while sleep RArming the dummy (I love charging during emotes). I'm too tired to go through the numbers, but here's the important stuff (feel free to check for yourself if you doubt it):

    Firing Rune Arm while not attacking will use your artificer level for damage calculation.
    Firing Rune Arm while in any part of any attack animation (swing, reload, cleave, sunder, etc) will use your total character level for damage calculation.

    For an 18/2 Wiz/Arti this basically means that as long as you are swinging or shooting when you fire off that RArm you're hitting just as hard as 20 Arti (just not nearly as often). I can't imagine that something like this is intended, and if tons of 2 Arti splashes start appearing in the world and blasting mobs for 3k damage, it probably won't last long, so use it while you can.
    So the question is, does it get character level only when meleeing or ranging? Wiz spells are different enough from melee attacks that I don't want to assume it also applies... Also SLA's seem even more "different".

    In any case that does sound unintended and likely to be fixed in short order. It is a perk to Arti splashing though for the time being. And one I could see being overlooked for a long time. Pretty interesting dicovery.
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  20. #180
    Community Member Singular's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BladeZero View Post
    I hope that clears things up for potential arti splashes. Again, the results are very easy to confirm, use your Vet II status to make a 3 Fighter / 3 Barb / 1 Arti, complete whatever that korthos quest is that gets you the first runearm, then drag a friend into the brawl pit and shoot him. Although the numbers will be small, the difference between level 7 shots, level 3 shots, and level 1 shots will be enough.
    Great research. Only one thing - arties have to be level 2 before they can use rune arms, though.

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