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  1. #181
    Community Member BladeZero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Singular View Post
    Great research. Only one thing - arties have to be level 2 before they can use rune arms, though.
    You're right, Fixed.

    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    So the question is, does it get character level only when meleeing or ranging? Wiz spells are different enough from melee attacks that I don't want to assume it also applies... Also SLA's seem even more "different".
    I can tell you that being in the spell casting animation from casting arti spells doesn't give the boost. Probably the same for wiz?
    Last edited by BladeZero; 02-12-2013 at 08:11 PM.

  2. #182
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    12 wiz gives bad DC's, but you're only casting firewall and web, and those will get some boost from archmage and focus feats to make them moderately useful.
    Spells like web are a no go for low dc wizards as they do nothing on a save...firewall and other save for half spells are not bad against enemies weak against it (ie. undead) but your best bet is to look in to no save spells such as Ice Storm or Niac's Biting Cold
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  3. #183
    Community Member Nodoze's Avatar
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    DPS wizards, How does the new "Glass Cannon" fit in to the mix compared to Lucid, Toven's, Corruption, etc?

    Thanks to all contributors...

    I liked & learned much from this thread and currently have Lucid and am trying to get Toven's and now wondering if it is worth farming Crystal Cove when it comes out in a few days for the Glass Cannon...

  4. #184
    Community Member Jaid314's Avatar
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    with the fortification penalty, i doubt it. *maybe* on a WF that actually takes improved fortification (which, while still being a terrible idea in general, could probably work sort of decently) since you could get ridiculous fortification that way, but in general? soul stones have very bad DPS.

    ultimately, it comes down to how the rune arm works though, i suppose. how many shots does it fire? i'm guessing not (most of the time rune arm descriptions mention if more shots are fired), but haven't really tested.

    basically, for single-target DPS, you want the shots because they shoot more often than anything else. most likely you want one of the force shot options because more often than not, artificers will have the force damage line maxed anyways.

    for AOE DPS, you still want something that hits multiple times, and generally that means toven's hammer. now, granted, the area on toven's hammer is not really the ideal shape, but as far as damage goes, you'll get more from toven's hammer (*especially* when you remember that you can open up with lightning motes for an extra 15% vulnerability). also, i would say lightning spec is probably the second best choice for an artificer (or even just to put points into lightning rather than maxing out force crit chance and crit damage).

    if not for the fortification penalty, i'd say it might, and only *might* be worthwhile purely for the fact that it deals bludgeoning damage on the explosion (for which there is no resist), the AOE is generally a better shape, and the fact that it adds 2 different procs to your weapon. but with that fortification reduction, i'm just not seeing a good way to make use of the rune arm.

    edit: for clarification to those who may not understand why bad fortification is such a problem, it's fairly simple. in DDO (and, quite frankly, in all MMOs), it is extremely beneficial that if you are going to take damage, that the damage comes in at a reasonably steady rate. that is, it is better to take 100 damage per second for 5 seconds than to take 500 damage once every 5 seconds.

    the reason is actually quite simple: healing. it is easier by far to manage your healing when you don't take damage spikes. when you take damage all at once, that means you need to have over that amount of HP when the damage comes. and if you don't, then you die. in the first scenario (100 dps for 5 seconds), so long as you have over 100 HP at any given time, you're perfectly safe. in the second scenario, you need to have over 500 HP to be safe.

    so not only does lower fortification make you take more damage, it also makes that damage harder to heal through, because whereas before you might be safe with healing a second or two later, with low fortification you could have one or two crits land on you and kill you from almost full health.
    Last edited by Jaid314; 02-25-2013 at 01:42 PM.

  5. #185
    Community Member Nodoze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaid314 View Post
    with the fortification penalty, i doubt it. *maybe* on a WF that actually takes improved fortification ... ultimately, it comes down to how the rune arm works though, i suppose. how many shots does it fire? i'm guessing not (most of the time rune arm descriptions mention if more shots are fired), but haven't really tested. ... for AOE DPS, you still want something that hits multiple times, and generally that means toven's hammer. now, granted, the area on toven's hammer is not really the ideal shape, ...it might, and only *might* be worthwhile purely for the fact that it deals bludgeoning damage on the explosion (for which there is no resist), the AOE is generally a better shape, and the fact that it adds 2 different procs to your weapon. ...
    e ...
    Understand your concerns regarding Fortification but for the sake of DPS lets take that off the table for at least discussion purposes. Assume one has a bound "LiveWood Core" sitting in the bank giving +50% Fort, &/or that one already twists in "Brace for Impact" for the saves & now you have an excuse to actually have the +40% Fort &/or Omniscience (or other alternatives). That and/or assume that your RAID or EE party has a perfect aggro tank and plenty of CC that your Fort typically isn't a major concern (even with all the above you can hotbar a backup rune arm just in case things go south). Basically lets get Fort out of the discussion for at least now...

    I am most concerned with knowing from the Artie DPS Guru's what the "DPS profile" of the Glass Cannon is and how it compares to the other leading options... I may be missing something but to me the main questions that come to mind are:

    - What Enhancement Line(s) max it out and how synergistic is that (are they) with other alternatives in the arsenal?
    - What pattern (shot, swirl, etc) does it follow or is this something new (or a combo of Shot and AOE giving the best of both) ?
    - How does it target (cursor or reticule like most)?
    - What is the actual expected single target* DPS for the Glass Cannon & how does it compare?
    - What is the actual expected multi-target DPS for the Glass Cannon & how does it compare?

    *The single target DPS should also consider that the Glass Cannon gives both "Rune Arm Imbue: Bludgeon V & Rune Arm Imbue: Fire V"

    EDIT: The reason I was initially intrigued by the Glass Cannon is that I don't have a Toven's yet & currently max Force and I was hoping that my memory was right that Force increases Bludgeoning/un-typed damage and that this would give me an AOE option without having to split my mostly maxed Force spec into being part or mostly Electricity. From memory I think I still have 1 odd Enhancement Point in Fire (if that helps) & I liked the idea of an included Impulse +120...
    Last edited by Nodoze; 02-26-2013 at 04:55 PM. Reason: typos, clarity of my hopes at bottom... Added reticle question...

  6. #186
    Community Member Nodoze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nodoze View Post
    ... I am most concerned with knowing from the Artie DPS Guru's what the "DPS profile" of the Glass Cannon is and how it compares to the other leading options... I may be missing something but to me the main questions that come to mind are:

    - What Enhancement Line(s) max it out and how synergistic is that (are they) with other alternatives in the arsenal?
    - What pattern (shot, swirl, etc) does it follow or is this something new (or a combo of Shot and AOE giving the best of both) ?
    - How does it target (cursor or reticule like most)?
    - What is the actual expected single target* DPS for the Glass Cannon & how does it compare?
    - What is the actual expected multi-target DPS for the Glass Cannon & how does it compare?

    *The single target DPS should also consider that the Glass Cannon gives both "Rune Arm Imbue: Bludgeon V & Rune Arm Imbue: Fire V"...
    I farmed Tier 2 of the Glass Cannon thus far but unfortunately I am still level 23 so I can't equip it yet. Thanks to Singular's testing & reporting back in the 007 build thread I think we have some of the answers as follows:

    Q- What Enhancement Line(s) max it out and how synergistic is that (are they) with other alternatives in the arsenal?
    A-Force lines boost the bludgeon and Fire is needed to boost the Fire component (fire unfortunately doesn't leverage the Force boost). The Force is synergistic with Tac/Det, BB, etc but the fire isn't synergistic...

    Q- What pattern (shot, swirl, etc) does it follow or is this something new (or a combo of Shot and AOE giving the best of both) ?
    A- The descriptions says "Exploding Shot" & it sounds like the closest category in this thread is the "Exploding Fire Shot". May need to be a new category as it also has Bludgeon AOE or update the Exploding Fire Shot portion to include GC but denote it also has Bludgeon/Physical (boosted by Force line).

    Q- How does it target (cursor or reticule like most)?
    A- From reports it looks reticule based. It does have problems targeting up close or when the mobs circle but "aiming at the ground" seems to help in those situations.

    Q- What is the actual expected single target* DPS for the Glass Cannon & how does it compare?
    A- Don't know how to calculate/compare; It does get two level V imbues on Xbow.

    Q- What is the actual expected multi-target DPS for the Glass Cannon & how does it compare?
    A- Don't know how to calculate/compare; It doesn't seem to lose much damage if you Fire a Tier 3 charge verses a full Tier 5 charge. This may be good if you need to be on the move and can't let it fully charge (solo/IPS/etc)...
    Last edited by Nodoze; 03-12-2013 at 07:11 AM. Reason: edit: CthruEgo reminded me that Fire line doesn't boost Summoned Flame Turrets

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Spells like web are a no go for low dc wizards as they do nothing on a save...firewall and other save for half spells are not bad against enemies weak against it (ie. undead) but your best bet is to look in to no save spells such as Ice Storm or Niac's Biting Cold
    True, but what I meant in that post was that the Archmage DC bonuses (Spell focus Conjuration and then Archmage II secondary focus conjuration, obviously just for the DC +2 ) can help the DC of both if you want to spec for it. With Heighten and assuming high INT your Web/Firewall wont be far off any evasion splashed/non-capstone wiz.
    *Disclaimer: All statements are generalized without boging down in minutia. Assuming that there are ALWAYS exceptions that test the rule, variations, and un-stated details may be omitted for brevity. These can be assumed to be understood; without bloating my posts with preemptive coverass. [*] Seal[*] Scroll[*] Shard[*] Base Item - eSoS >200 runs

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nodoze View Post
    *The single target DPS should also consider that the Glass Cannon gives both "Rune Arm Imbue: Bludgeon V & Rune Arm Imbue: Fire V"
    Great, I'll have you know that because of you I now have to go farm Cove.

    Epic Silver Slinger + Glass Cannon = Not fair to the poor Undead

    Let me lay this out because of how sweet it looks:

    2d10 +10 blunt etc. (+2 PrE, +2 Undead bane), 2d6 Holy (3d6 burst), 2d6 Undead Bane, 2d10 Blunt, 2d10 Fire, 1d10 Fire (Red slot)

    7d10+10 and 4d6 on a typical shot. X3 shots LOLcopters on a fusillade... Imagine what this does to Giant skells.

    Off to cove I go... was doing so good avoiding it
    Last edited by IronClan; 03-06-2013 at 07:54 PM.
    *Disclaimer: All statements are generalized without boging down in minutia. Assuming that there are ALWAYS exceptions that test the rule, variations, and un-stated details may be omitted for brevity. These can be assumed to be understood; without bloating my posts with preemptive coverass. [*] Seal[*] Scroll[*] Shard[*] Base Item - eSoS >200 runs

  9. #189
    Community Member Singular's Avatar
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    Just to add a bit to Nodoze's great info:

    Quote Originally Posted by Nodoze View Post
    Q- What pattern (shot, swirl, etc) does it follow or is this something new (or a combo of Shot and AOE giving the best of both) ?
    A- The descriptions says "Exploding Shot" & it sounds like the closest category in this thread is the "Exploding Fire Shot". May need to be a new category as it also has Bludgeon AOE or update the Exploding Fire Shot portion to include GC but denote it also has Bludgeon/Physical (boosted by Force line).
    It fires exactly like Strinati's.

    Q- What is the actual expected single target* DPS for the Glass Cannon & how does it compare?
    A- Don't know how to calculate/compare; It does get two level V imbues on Xbow.
    It does between 300-850 damage per target. I may have seen one force crit over a 1000, but that would be rare.

    The imbues are 2-20 + 2-16, so bow dps is highest with this rune arm compared to all others. I suspect that you could make that work very well in Fury of the Wild if you took all the damage enhancements over the spell enhancements. In other words, this will be a fantastic rune arm for builds that multi-class with artie or are going purely for ranged damage and splash at least 2 levels of artie (tho 6 would be better).

    Q- What is the actual expected multi-target DPS for the Glass Cannon & how does it compare?
    A- Don't know how to calculate/compare; It doesn't seem to lose much damage if you Fire a Tier 3 charge verses a full Tier 5 charge. This may be good if you need to be on the move and can't let it fully charge (solo/IPS/etc)...
    That's at close range - if the mob is right in front of you and the canoon explodes in its face, there doesn't seem to be any difference between tier 3 and 5. However, if the mob is a bit away from you, it's best to charge up to 5 if you have time. I think that, if you're fully charged and fire at the ground, the higher tier will be better, too.

    Given that this is an AOE, you're probably only going to use a full tier once on a solo engagement and then be jumping around a lot, so firing tier 3s off a lot. As long as you have one more way of doing AOE damage, I think you'll be fine doing that.

  10. #190
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Singular View Post
    In other words, this will be a fantastic rune arm for builds that multi-class with artie or are going purely for ranged damage and splash at least 2 levels of artie (tho 6 would be better).
    Given how poorly other rune-arms work in melee with targeting, this is likely a great (best?) choice for the rare rune arm + bsword/daxe builds as well.
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  11. #191
    Community Member Nodoze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    Given how poorly other rune-arms work in melee with targeting, this is likely a great (best?) choice for the rare rune arm + bsword/daxe builds as well.
    Maybe DPS-wise but if melee I would make sure you have a high enough fort such that the -25% doesn't hamper you... I know I was the one advocating taking the -25% Fort out of the ranged discussion but I don't want to mimize it's importance. If I was melee up front I would try to make sure I was un-crit-able (good idea for ranged also).

  12. #192
    Community Member Nodoze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Singular View Post
    Just to add a bit ...
    ...
    The imbues are 2-20 + 2-16, so bow dps is highest with this rune arm compared to all others. I suspect that you could make that work very well in Fury of the Wild if you took all the damage enhancements over the spell enhancements. In other words, this will be a fantastic rune arm for builds that multi-class with artie or are going purely for ranged damage and splash at least 2 levels of artie (tho 6 would be better).

    That's at close range - if the mob is right in front of you and the canon explodes in its face, there doesn't seem to be any difference between tier 3 and 5. However, if the mob is a bit away from you, it's best to charge up to 5 if you have time. I think that, if you're fully charged and fire at the ground, the higher tier will be better, too.

    Given that this is an AOE, you're probably only going to use a full tier once on a solo engagement and then be jumping around a lot, so firing tier 3s off a lot. As long as you have one more way of doing AOE damage, I think you'll be fine doing that.
    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Great, I'll have you know that because of you I now have to go farm Cove. ...

    Epic Silver Slinger + Glass Cannon = Not fair to the poor Undead ...

    7d10+10 and 4d6 on a typical shot. X3 shots LOLcopters on a fusillade... Imagine what this does to Giant skells.

    Off to cove I go... was doing so good avoiding it
    Sorry IronClan for dooming you to the cove grind... I was able to both get my Glass Cannon (GC) & SpyGlass to Tier 3 on the last weekend & then hit level 24 & wow...

    LOLcopters is right ! I really like having Force primary & a synergistic Bludgeon AOE option when helpful. I definitely see way more single target damage with my main rune arm but really like the GC being in the arsenal so far. I don't have a high level Acid arm yet so I don't know what I am missing on single targets (yet) but like what I have so far (currently maxed all 3 Force lines since I only have Force/Bludgeon rune arms)... Actually until yesterday I didn't any high level elemental rune arms (just got the cold one from TOR but I am not speced for cold at all)...

    In Epic GiantHold I can see way across the map & Glass Cannon's dual imbues rock when you aggro a group and they train to you... Make sure Improved Precise Shot (IPS) is toggled & just tab target the back one (furthest away) and pop Fusillade and they all typically go down before they reach you (or Damage Boost if a small group)... I tend to be moving around quite a bit to max IPS multiplication & thus don't often get above rune-arm-charge-tier-3 on my rune arms and GC does a great job of AOE hitting the lead mobs in the train (the projectile explodes on the first mob it hits even though I have the rear mob targeted). If you try this don't forget to switch to Archer's Focus for at least the bosses...

    When soloing I really like the AOE addition until I get down to just a few mobs left (at which point I hot-key switch to my single-target rune-arm). When solo-engaging a group I pop a BB & jump around it spamming the Glass Cannon as soon as it hits charge-tier-3 & IPS when/where I can. If incoming damage is too high I can drop Tac-Det(s) & slow things down but generally I have been just running them through my old trusty AOE meat grinder (BB) & my new mana-free AOE meat pulverize-er (GC) & throw them on the meat-skewer (IPS).

    Thanks Singular for the early testing & reporting back that motivated me to finish my cove grind to get my new meat-pulverizer (GC) to add to my meat-skewer (IPS) & meat-grinder (BB) !
    Last edited by Nodoze; 03-12-2013 at 10:56 AM. Reason: typos/clarity, changed magnification to multiplication

  13. #193
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    Cool cove story bro:

    I walked out of Cove at 4 in the morning a few hours before the event would fold up and disappear; with 31 green shards less than I needed to craft the final upgrade. I had to go to bed and the doors were not going to open again for me.

    At first I had some good groups bought the Glass Cannon base item and upgraded, just needed the final tier upgrade, then had bad luck grouping after that and the last 1000 shards was truely painful (I had all the other stuff in thousand stacks left over from a previous cove). I literally had time for two more sets of cove runs with 200+ shards in my bag, needing only 800+ shards out of the next 4 runs (2 sets of 2), so avaraging like 200 would have done it.

    My last 2 runs were 100 shards and 173 shards, come to find out mid way through the second of that set that the torcher was literally buying one torch at a time and running back to the end of the line, 3 other people in the group were buying Kobolds and barrels maxing them out. sucking up what we DID manage to collect.

    Literally trying to do worse would have been hard to get less shards.

    So 4am I look in my bag hopefully and I have like 969 shards, I quit I'm done, don't have time to do another run and their 2500 turn ins that aren't going to happen for a couple hours if at all. So figuratively slapping my forehead at the worst cove runs I've ever been in, I travel back to harbor to bank and log out, I unload into the shared bank, and decide to put some of the requisitions I have a few of littering my inventory and have a couple stacks of already in the bank on a back tab, and low and behold... on that bank tab next to 5 worker requisitions and 3 teleporter reqs, sit 68 green shards from probably 2 years ago that I didn't remember having.

    Laughed about all the way back to to make that last upgrade.
    *Disclaimer: All statements are generalized without boging down in minutia. Assuming that there are ALWAYS exceptions that test the rule, variations, and un-stated details may be omitted for brevity. These can be assumed to be understood; without bloating my posts with preemptive coverass. [*] Seal[*] Scroll[*] Shard[*] Base Item - eSoS >200 runs

  14. #194
    Community Member Nodoze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Cool cove story bro:

    I walked out of Cove at 4 in the morning a few hours before the event would fold up and disappear; with 31 green shards less than I needed to craft the final upgrade. I had to go to bed and the doors were not going to open again for me.

    ... then had bad luck grouping after that and the last 1000 shards was truely painful (I had all the other stuff in thousand stacks left over from a previous cove). ...

    ... find out mid way through the second of that set that the torcher was literally buying one torch at a time and running back to the end of the line, 3 other people ... were ... sucking up what we DID manage to collect.

    Literally trying to do worse would have been hard to get less shards.

    So 4am I look in my bag hopefully and I have like 969 shards, I quit I'm done, don't have time ... So figuratively slapping my forehead at the worst cove runs I've ever been in, I travel back to harbor to bank and log out, I unload into the shared bank, and ... low and behold... on that bank tab ... sit 68 green shards from probably 2 years ago that I didn't remember having.

    Laughed about all the way back to to make that last upgrade.
    Darn it man you almost sunk my heart just reading... I was beginning to think your definition of "Cool" wasn't my definition of cool & that I ruined your week... Alls well that ends well & I am glad that you had a good surprise waiting for you. PuGs like the ones you experienced are painful which is why I typically solo if the guildies aren't on... This time going solo almost kept me from getting T3 (till next cove)...

    In guild runs we were getting well over 200 on average but when the guild signed off I went solo... When solo'ing the cove I was averaging ~100 rewards per run (typically left pet at ramp to guard it) but was getting tired and after many runs I had two back to back runs of 98 and then 89 with no rewards & figured Tier-2 was enough & I would wait until next cove... There was plenty of time but I had had enough and was tired of diminishing returns... As I was putting everything back in the bank a fellow Artie in the guild got off work & signed on and asked me to help so I got my second wind and we knocked out his Tier1 & Tier2... Duo Arties & their pets make a great pair to maximize the cove with... We started on our 23s but found our level 7 Arties were able to steam-roll more effectively... Great ending & I was glad to help him and in doing so was pleasantly surprised to end with enough and not have to wait till next cove for T3 for my Spyglass & GC...
    Last edited by Nodoze; 03-12-2013 at 03:43 PM.

  15. #195
    Community Member BlackSteel's Avatar
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    I like glass cannon ALOT. Its a very fun rune arm for run n gunning when you would otherwise be unable to really charge and shoot.

    For encounters where I know I can CC and practically turret up I prefer corruption of nature. But when facing multiple EE mobs where slowing down to charge could mean getting smacked for 2oo-5oo damage, I'll forego the charging and just use the double imdue from the cannon. Even w/o the RuneArm, my arti doesnt really seem to have an issue bringing down EE mobs in a few seconds. Pin/Whistler and a few rounds while kiting around their buddies in a BB. Rinse/repeat
    Shadowsteel [TR train wreck]

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