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  1. #1
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    Default And the Biggest Problem with PvP Is...

    To me, it's the queuing system and UI. The ability to queue anywhere is one of the best things Champions Online does with their PvP system, and Turbine, you guys need to rip it off wholesale. It allows players to get in and get out, and quickly get back to what they were doing. Taverns are nice, but as much as they should be, they're not social areas, and people aren't going to wait around to queue for a match when they could be out actually doing something. In my opinion, that is what kills PvP in this game.

    If the accessibility were there, more people would do it. I'm not a programmer, but it seems like setting up a worldwide queue system should be a relatively simple thing to do. PvP in DDO sounds fun in theory, but I have yet to actually try it because of a simple problem, and I really feel like I'm missing out on something fun.

    It's sad that there are less than ten threads in the PvP board. EU is a big opportunity and I don't want a lack of PvP options to turn players away from this really cool game.

    This is just my observation. Does anyone else have any ideas about how to make PvP better/more popular?

  2. #2
    Founder Freeman's Avatar
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    The biggest problem with PvP is that they tried to fit it into a game that was not designed with it in mind. Given the huge imbalances between the classes, I don't think PvP will ever be more than a small sideline to this game.
    Freeman - Human Bard - Thelanis Fulfilling my duty to the ladies of Stormreach
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  3. #3
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    I don't think that's really the best excuse, though. Each class has it's advantages, and just like in any MMO, there are some classes that are better played in PvE than PvP, but any class could be leveraged in PvP to some extent, especially if you include multiclasses, and even moreso if Turbine builds areas with each class in mind. If players wanted to PvP, they could easily come up with PvP builds for this game. It's just a matter of Turbine supporting the idea and making the content more accessible.

  4. #4
    Community Member Goldeneye's Avatar
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    PvP is really just for testing out your cool new equipment on friends!

    In practicality, serious PvP matches are often frustrating because of how differently different classes can perform vs. their usefulness in quests.... though organizing small groups can be very very entertaining.
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  5. #5
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    The idea that fighting players is frustrating or impractical shouldn't be used as an excuse. PvP is already in the game, obviously Turbine spent time putting it there, so why not do it right?

    Fighting players is tougher and you have to think differently, but that doesn't mean PvP should be abandoned. PvP can and has been designed to work with all classes in mind in plenty of other MMOs, and there's no reason DDO couldn't work the same way. DDO has so much potential for variety in character builds, there's no reason players couldn't come up with plenty of effective PvP builds to fill any role.

    I have fun with the PvE game as much as anyone, but isn't it at least a little frustrating to anyone else that Turbine created a PvP feature that isn't being utilized because of a simple functionality issue that could be fixed relatively easily? In Champions Online, they had worldwide queuing as soon as PvP was introduced in the closed beta, and it was a godsend. It was so great to be able to just jump in and play a couple of matches when I was bored of doing missions without having to travel to some terminal to initiate PvP content. I really think that if it was done the same way in DDO people would participate much, much more.

    Not only would it be nice to have, it would be a draw for more new players, and that's what Turbine wants right now.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by ragazzomorto View Post
    The idea that fighting players is frustrating or impractical shouldn't be used as an excuse. PvP is already in the game, obviously Turbine spent time putting it there, so why not do it right?
    Look, you clearly need to investigate PVP a little more before coming up with suggestions for it.

    It's already been mentioned that the game design doesn't support PVP,but maybe you don't know what that means. Pop quiz: How many level 20 rogues can my level 20 cleric defeat at once?

    Quote Originally Posted by ragazzomorto View Post
    PvP can and has been designed to work with all classes in mind in plenty of other MMOs, and there's no reason DDO couldn't work the same way. DDO has so much potential for variety in character builds, there's no reason players couldn't come up with plenty of effective PvP builds to fill any role.
    That is a theoretical possibility, but it would be a significant effort.. quite a bit more than adding a new raid, for example. And that kind of effort would form the essential core of an improved PVP experience. World queing or whatever is just a minor convenience on top of that.

    Allowing faster access to matches isn't valuable if the matches aren't fun.
    Last edited by Angelus_dead; 09-12-2009 at 03:38 AM.

  7. #7
    Founder Freeman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    It's already been mentioned that the game design doesn't support PVP,but maybe you don't know what that means. Pop quiz: How many level 20 rogues can my level 20 cleric defeat at once?
    LOL, just about all of them Ok, I guess the dwarves and WF might be able to hold out a bit longer, at least until you hit them with Greater Command...
    Freeman - Human Bard - Thelanis Fulfilling my duty to the ladies of Stormreach
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  8. #8
    Community Member issiana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    Pop quiz: How many level 20 rogues can my level 20 cleric defeat at once?
    better quiz... when was the last time you even saw a rogue enter into a pvp pit?

    all the rogues i know of wont even set foot in one because they know they wont last a few seconds vs anyone. heck even a lvl 10 wizzie could probly knock off a lvl 20 rogue without much trouble at all. that speaks volumes about pvp balance vs pve (ie real game) balance.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    Pop quiz: How many level 20 rogues can my level 20 cleric defeat at once?
    Hrm... I'd think that would depend on how many of them have Cheat Death.

    As to the OP, I think the biggest problem with pvp in DDO is the fact that, unlike other MMOs, the discrepancy between defensive ability for "tanks" and casters is far less of a factor.
    In most MMOs, a caster is deadly at range, but once the melee close in it's pretty much a done deal.
    In DDO, not only can the caster nuke, insta-death, dance, stone, level drain, hold, hypnotize, and/or otherwise disable or kill an opponent, but also has the buffs (displacement, energy resist/prot, stoneskin, etc) that make it much more durable in pvp than most melees.
    Add to this an Armor Class system that significantly loses value as we continue to level up, a reliance (for most classes) on outside buffs in order to survive many of the caster's abilities listed above, player-chosen build progression (most MMOs nowadays have stats hard-coded based on class and gear, making sure the casters have low hp and armor for example), and a combat system balanced for pve team play and not for pvp and you have a pretty "Meh" environment for pvp.
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  10. #10
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    You're right, I don't know anything about PvP in DDO because I haven't been able to try it. I still think it could be done, though. What happens when two identical parties fight? A decent battle, probably.

    Anyway, I still think it would be nice to have the ability to enter PvP from anywhere in the world. It may not make sense storywise, and I understand how important that is to Turbine, but it's more fun that way.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by ragazzomorto View Post
    You're right, I don't know anything about PvP in DDO because I haven't been able to try it.
    The reason you couldn't try it is not because the queuing is hard to access- it's because nobody else is using it, because the matches aren't fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by ragazzomorto View Post
    What happens when two identical parties fight? A decent battle, probably.
    No. The technical term for what happens is "rocket launcher tag"

    Quote Originally Posted by ragazzomorto View Post
    Anyway, I still think it would be nice to have the ability to enter PvP from anywhere in the world.
    How long do you think it takes to run from some random location to the closest pvp tavern?

  12. #12

    Default IF you like PVP let Turbine know !

    If the new players like to Pvp then they need to voice their fondenss of PVP to Turbine. Many of the older subscribers hate PVP (about 99%) because its not authentic DnD, well this just in from REUTERS: Neither is DDO. Pvp is a lot of fun. Embarrassing big mouth no skilled players is funny. Have a skilled opponent who is decent person also is fun in different way. I am hoping the huge influx of new players are PVP minded players, that way if your a unskilled player who only PVP's i wont have to see you in end game elite content. If Turbine borrowed a 100th new thing from LOTRO they need a PVP zone like the Moors. To the old school players who hate pvp face it DONT PVP, also keep in mind that type of mentality didnt make DDO a big success, if it had then they wouldnt have gone to F2P. If the majority of f2P like pvp then give it to them. Dont only cowtow to the forum complainers who no matter what you do they will cry anyway. Do something nice for the new players who like PVP. You have all the tech you need from LOTRO, Moors in DDO-land would be fun with or without monster play. LOTRO has tons of players and the Moors would have some slow times (like when Mines of moria launched) but most times you could easily find upwards of 100 freeps and 100 creeps. No new mods for awhile PLEASE!!! Get PVP up to speed then when thiers a 50/50 or 60/30 balance then focus on new content.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melkor_The_Mighty View Post
    If the new players like to Pvp then they need to voice their fondenss of PVP to Turbine. Many of the older subscribers hate PVP (about 99%) because its not authentic DnD, well this just in from REUTERS: Neither is DDO. Pvp is a lot of fun. Embarrassing big mouth no skilled players is funny. Have a skilled opponent who is decent person also is fun in different way. I am hoping the huge influx of new players are PVP minded players, that way if your a unskilled player who only PVP's i wont have to see you in end game elite content. If Turbine borrowed a 100th new thing from LOTRO they need a PVP zone like the Moors. To the old school players who hate pvp face it DONT PVP, also keep in mind that type of mentality didnt make DDO a big success, if it had then they wouldnt have gone to F2P. If the majority of f2P like pvp then give it to them. Dont only cowtow to the forum complainers who no matter what you do they will cry anyway. Do something nice for the new players who like PVP. You have all the tech you need from LOTRO, Moors in DDO-land would be fun with or without monster play. LOTRO has tons of players and the Moors would have some slow times (like when Mines of moria launched) but most times you could easily find upwards of 100 freeps and 100 creeps. No new mods for awhile PLEASE!!! Get PVP up to speed then when thiers a 50/50 or 60/30 balance then focus on new content.

    Those of us that hate pvp dont want any dev time wasted on something so inane and useless pvp wont work in ddo without out class balancing and that is a bad thing for ddo we get little enough new content wtihout them wasting time on this stuff. and most of you pvp would proably come in and not spend a dime where as if they made new content VIPs would keep subscribing and f2p would buy the new content if it was good enough.

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  14. #14
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melkor_The_Mighty View Post
    If the new players like to Pvp then they need to voice their fondenss of PVP to Turbine. Many of the older subscribers hate PVP (about 99%) because its not authentic DnD, well this just in from REUTERS: Neither is DDO. Pvp is a lot of fun. Embarrassing big mouth no skilled players is funny. Have a skilled opponent who is decent person also is fun in different way. I am hoping the huge influx of new players are PVP minded players, that way if your a unskilled player who only PVP's i wont have to see you in end game elite content. If Turbine borrowed a 100th new thing from LOTRO they need a PVP zone like the Moors. To the old school players who hate pvp face it DONT PVP, also keep in mind that type of mentality didnt make DDO a big success, if it had then they wouldnt have gone to F2P. If the majority of f2P like pvp then give it to them. Dont only cowtow to the forum complainers who no matter what you do they will cry anyway. Do something nice for the new players who like PVP. You have all the tech you need from LOTRO, Moors in DDO-land would be fun with or without monster play. LOTRO has tons of players and the Moors would have some slow times (like when Mines of moria launched) but most times you could easily find upwards of 100 freeps and 100 creeps. No new mods for awhile PLEASE!!! Get PVP up to speed then when thiers a 50/50 or 60/30 balance then focus on new content.
    Well I was all for PVp (even though I don't do it much) until you reminded me that it could take away Dev time from creating new Content. PVP is fine, but not at the cost of new content.
    You had me until you brought up content.
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  15. #15
    Community Member Tannniss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melkor_The_Mighty View Post
    If the new players like to Pvp then they need to voice their fondenss of PVP to Turbine. Many of the older subscribers hate PVP (about 99%) because its not authentic DnD, well this just in from REUTERS: Neither is DDO. Pvp is a lot of fun. Embarrassing big mouth no skilled players is funny. Have a skilled opponent who is decent person also is fun in different way. I am hoping the huge influx of new players are PVP minded players, that way if your a unskilled player who only PVP's i wont have to see you in end game elite content. If Turbine borrowed a 100th new thing from LOTRO they need a PVP zone like the Moors. To the old school players who hate pvp face it DONT PVP, also keep in mind that type of mentality didnt make DDO a big success, if it had then they wouldnt have gone to F2P. If the majority of f2P like pvp then give it to them. Dont only cowtow to the forum complainers who no matter what you do they will cry anyway. Do something nice for the new players who like PVP. You have all the tech you need from LOTRO, Moors in DDO-land would be fun with or without monster play. LOTRO has tons of players and the Moors would have some slow times (like when Mines of moria launched) but most times you could easily find upwards of 100 freeps and 100 creeps. No new mods for awhile PLEASE!!! Get PVP up to speed then when thiers a 50/50 or 60/30 balance then focus on new content.
    I fully agree...if this is what the F2P crowd wants then give it to em...but not at the expense of developing new content for those of us who were here all along and could give two squirts about your e-peen displays at the Lobster.....
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  16. #16
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    I'm all for more PvE content over PvP content, believe me. The reason I enjoy this game so much is because of what Turbine has done with their quests. There's no other MMO that delivers such variety and sense of immersion. It's great. I just thought it would be nice to have a little convenience.

    At the very least, you should be able to see whether there are other people queued for a specific instance. That way, if there are a couple of people queued for one, you'll be able to see that and join them, instead of queuing for one that no one is playing. It would be a minimal thing that would help players that actually want to use the content that has been provided, use it.

  17. #17
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    Queuing from anywhere is a great idea. Also, even if the game isn't particularly well balanced for pvp doesn't mean that face pwning a few people isn't going to be fun.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zekral View Post
    Queuing from anywhere is a great idea. Also, even if the game isn't particularly well balanced for pvp doesn't mean that face pwning a few people isn't going to be fun.
    It is inaccurate to say DDO "isn't particularly well balanced" for PVP. The word "particularly" is a softener which conveys that the degree of the problem is mild.

    That is untrue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zekral View Post
    Queuing from anywhere is a great idea. Also, even if the game isn't particularly well balanced for pvp doesn't mean that face pwning a few people isn't going to be fun.
    Why would people queue up to be pwned?

    If someone queues for pvp and gets pwned, will he be more or less likely to keep playing DDO in the future?

  19. #19
    Community Member Kistilan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    It is inaccurate to say DDO "isn't particularly well balanced" for PVP. The word "particularly" is a softener which conveys that the degree of the problem is mild.

    That is untrue.


    Why would people queue up to be pwned?

    If someone queues for pvp and gets pwned, will he be more or less likely to keep playing DDO in the future?
    Don't normally read your posts, but...

    The reason why people continue to play in the pits (besides testing) is to gank or avenge their ganking. If they get peeved enough, with an over-developed sense of revenge, they will continually jump in on their offender until the offender leaves. This creates a very incessant (and harrowingly-fun) time for both the conqueror and the would-be conquered.

    And of course when the would-be conquered gets a lucky pot-shot off that kills the conqueror, the conqueror becomes irrate and jumps in even more vigorously to attack said would-be.

    Or maybe I'm just misunderstanding human nature... but I've watched enough pvp pits (and been in enough of them) to know the cyclic process. Balance is the last thing pvp needs unless it means something (ie faction ratings, rewards, etc). And even then, balance need not be the #1 priority if Teams & Luck are factors (which they are for anyone wishing to last more than a little while in the Royal Rumble).

  20. #20
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    Melee PvP is broken beyond anything due to Glancing Blows.

    Shouldn`t take much to remove this feature so that a true contest of builds can measure themselves in Melee.

    PvP IMO is a fun-factor part of DDO, unfortunately even the fun-factor parts need to make some sense and not be a total SNAFU.
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