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  1. #141
    The Hatchery
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mellkor View Post
    Thats easy! More str on a 36 pt build. OR wis for better will save.
    Never pump a stat just for a boost to saves. The points are better spent elsewhere.

  2. #142
    Founder Mellkor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qezuzu View Post
    Never pump a stat just for a boost to saves. The points are better spent elsewhere.
    In your opinion. Mine is contrary to yours. Saves are defiantly worth pumping up when a few spare points cant fit eleswhere.
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  3. #143
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mellkor View Post
    Thats easy! More str on a 36 pt build. OR wis for better will save.
    Mellkor is definitely the expert here but I'm not sure I agree with them.

    According to Mellkor's calculations the max assassination DC is 66. This appears to be overkill. The build they present has a DC of 60+.

    When I was asking about the target DC for assassination the numbers that kept coming up were about 10 below this.

    So, I think that Mellkor makes a mistake by using two epic feats on INT for just 1 added point of DC. And, I think that it is a mistake to push STR over DEX when a 21 DEX grants you epic sneak attack damage.

    With 34 points a player can leave STR at 8 and raise DEX to 18. With a +3 tome they hit the mark for the epic sneak attack feat. This adds an average of 7 points damage to each attack.

    To get an equivalent effect STR would need to be 14 points higher than DEX using weapons like EMG (which permit DEX or STR to be used in both hit and damage calculations).

    Admittedly this affects being able to use something like Balizarde or Celestia. But, unless you are in quests where that need exists on a routine basis I think it might be wiser to go with added DEX if you have 34 points to work with.

  4. #144
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    ED's also made the "16 build points" less important. Knowing the high number you can hit? Awesome. Being able to spec to be 2-4 points less to run some other kind of build? More awesome.
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  5. #145
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    ED's also made the "16 build points" less important. Knowing the high number you can hit? Awesome. Being able to spec to be 2-4 points less to run some other kind of build? More awesome.
    I'm not sure I agree with this entirely either.

    If you want to play some other kind of build then go ahead and do that. But, if you want to play an assassin then you are a fool not to follow pretty closely the build advice Mellkor provided.

    Personally, I am finding the advice to be right on target and I have built accordingly. I have my human rogue to L23 and I'm close to L24. That is important because of crafted gear that is L24 minimum.

    I am getting very close to the 55 DC that I set for myself having concluded that I was not likely to farm some of the things Mellkor mentions. And, I'm finding that the build performs superbly.

    But, that doesn't mean every person needs an assassin build. There are other rogue types. And, if that is what you want to play then go and do that.

    But, I think a person will be hard pressed to make many changes in Mellkor's basic build and create something better. If they can I'd like to see the build fleshed out as Mellkor has done in this thread.

  6. #146
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    My drow dex/int finesse first life gimp is sitting at 56 or so at level 24 ... and that's not fully spec'd out in gear (running a +6 item, etc.) Short term pots, inspired excellence, etc. etc. all goes up from there - I could easily see myself at 60 with little work (I've got a +8 item, etc. just not using it in favor of more synergistic gear sets).

    And frankly, I'm tempted to not bother with my freaking EMGs and run instead with my Cleric-of-Amunator short swords most of the time 'cause they look cool. Maybe I gear up for higher DCs in more strenous content, but for the bulk of the time it is really unnecessary.



    ....


    Remember I'm not saying anything different than you on the target points (max is in the 60s, good target in the mid-high 50s) - just expounding on that.

    If you can hit a 60 (say) with 16 build points into INT, or can hit a 59 with 10 build points into INT and put those 6 somewhere else (like maybe DEX to hit Improved Sneak Attack) or a light multiclass, bueno.



    EDIT

    And specifically, those 6 extra build points provide you a +1 to your DCs. ED will provide +6 easily, more if you take INT. Simple math of providing a +1 bonus out of a max near 50 before versus a +1 bonus out of a max in the 60s says that clearly, the 6 build points provide less benefit today. It's up to you if it's worth it or not.
    Last edited by voodoogroves; 11-08-2012 at 09:14 PM.
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  7. #147
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    And specifically, those 6 extra build points provide you a +1 to your DCs.
    Well, I'm always one to point out that +1 DC one way or the other usually doesn't matter. So, in general I agree that starting with 16 INT instead of 18 INT isn't such a big deal in most situations.

    I'll also observe that you said you are running a drow assassin. This means you started with a higher INT and DEX initially. So for you 18 is the build point equivalent of 16 without impacting your DC.

    But, mostly, I'll observe that if it is possible to get to a no fail situation then every 1 DC does matter.

    My real question is whether it is necessary to get to 60+ to get there -- or if it is possible to get to at all. Is it a situation where the mob saves on 20 regardless? If so then everything over the save on 20 is wasted.

    But, if it is a case of a no fail DC then finding that number and getting there makes sense. When I asked I was told that ~54-56 was the target. Does 60 get me there? Does 62? Does 66 (the max according to Mellkor's calculations)?

    If it is possible to reach no fail then every 1 DC is absolutely worth it and should not be dismissed.

  8. #148
    Court Jester hi_sa1nt's Avatar
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    Do you ever use trapmaking skills in this set up when running solo? I know most of the traps are almost useless... but the sound emitting ones seem to be decent enough to distract enemies.

  9. #149
    The Hatchery karl_k0ch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hi_sa1nt View Post
    Do you ever use trapmaking skills in this set up when running solo? I know most of the traps are almost useless... but the sound emitting ones seem to be decent enough to distract enemies.
    They used to be useful if you wanted to do a stealth run for Epic Claw. Nowadays, going non-stealth on eh is fast, and offers scroll chances.
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  10. #150
    Founder Mellkor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hi_sa1nt View Post
    Do you ever use trapmaking skills in this set up when running solo? I know most of the traps are almost useless... but the sound emitting ones seem to be decent enough to distract enemies.
    I have not really played with trap making at all. I have never really heard it being any good from the few folks I have run across who have used it. So I can not really comment on its effectiveness. Maybe someone can chime in who has.
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  11. #151
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    You bring a 547 buffed melee class into EE? Sure the dodge bonuse helps out, but you could get 2 shot by several of the bosses in EE. Should consider putting less on int, past 55 DC the assassinate DC is neglegent, only things worth assassinating are mages... You also neglected Concentration? Last time I checked 10 minutes ago, scrolls are still subjugated to failure on damage from enemies, so if you are wondering why you can't heal yourself sometimes theres your problem. As for other skills... 102 Open Lock? are you trying to get trap parts from locks now, my highest skill unbuffed is 78, with almost all of mine being in the range of 40-70 without buffs, and ive never had a problem with sneaking, disabling devices in EH or EE and opening locks. Should consider going a little less on the INT there, my INT is only 33 unbuffed, and sure i cant assassinate everything, but the only monsters worth while to assassinate in EE are the mages, if you cant handle several melee monsters then you're screwed anyways. Should look at putting points towards other stats, DEX for example, so that you can take Improved Sneak Attack (+3d6 SA dmg). If you are a third life then you can easily get a decent INT and DEX and not totally screw over CON and STR, maybe look at getting some +3 tomes too, they arent that hard to get anymore and can help you make your stats a lot more even. Currently playing a 940 hp Assassin, taken all of the two weapon fighting feats, and can do about 400 dmg, with around a 52 Assassinate DC, and i still have yet to blow a trap box or fail at a lock.

  12. #152
    The Hatchery Fefnir_2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mellkor View Post
    I have not really played with trap making at all. I have never really heard it being any good from the few folks I have run across who have used it. So I can not really comment on its effectiveness. Maybe someone can chime in who has.
    They're useful for separating small groups of enemies. The last time my rogue used them extensively is when I was farming the Matron's Daughter's chest on EE in House of Death Undone. A precisely placed trap and you can open a door, re-invis, and use the full speed sneak ability from Shadowdancer to get away before they ever knew you were there. It's incredibly situational, but handy for soloing if you can figure out how to use 'em.
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  13. #153
    Founder Mellkor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hsoftl View Post
    You bring a 547 buffed melee class into EE? Sure the dodge bonuse helps out, but you could get 2 shot by several of the bosses in EE. Should consider putting less on int, past 55 DC the assassinate DC is neglegent, only things worth assassinating are mages... You also neglected Concentration? Last time I checked 10 minutes ago, scrolls are still subjugated to failure on damage from enemies, so if you are wondering why you can't heal yourself sometimes theres your problem. As for other skills... 102 Open Lock? are you trying to get trap parts from locks now, my highest skill unbuffed is 78, with almost all of mine being in the range of 40-70 without buffs, and ive never had a problem with sneaking, disabling devices in EH or EE and opening locks. Should consider going a little less on the INT there, my INT is only 33 unbuffed, and sure i cant assassinate everything, but the only monsters worth while to assassinate in EE are the mages, if you cant handle several melee monsters then you're screwed anyways. Should look at putting points towards other stats, DEX for example, so that you can take Improved Sneak Attack (+3d6 SA dmg). If you are a third life then you can easily get a decent INT and DEX and not totally screw over CON and STR, maybe look at getting some +3 tomes too, they arent that hard to get anymore and can help you make your stats a lot more even. Currently playing a 940 hp Assassin, taken all of the two weapon fighting feats, and can do about 400 dmg, with around a 52 Assassinate DC, and i still have yet to blow a trap box or fail at a lock.
    I have none of the "issues" you describe or allude to. If you are not assasinating everything, as you say, perhaps you can benefit from this build or the info contained in this thread instead of spouting vile nonsense. If you are happy with your ****** build, (seems to be a good fit for you, btw), then have fun! Try to not **** on other folk's parade, you will be a much happier and a better person for it.
    Last edited by Mellkor; 11-13-2012 at 07:01 AM.
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  14. #154
    Founder Mellkor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fefnir_2011 View Post
    They're useful for separating small groups of enemies. The last time my rogue used them extensively is when I was farming the Matron's Daughter's chest on EE in House of Death Undone. A precisely placed trap and you can open a door, re-invis, and use the full speed sneak ability from Shadowdancer to get away before they ever knew you were there. It's incredibly situational, but handy for soloing if you can figure out how to use 'em.


    Thanks for your input! So there is at least one good use!
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  15. #155
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    I would like to add in something some people have said about this post lacking on DPS. With the artificer Dilli. he can use Insightful damage for his weapons thats a dramatic increase on damage output. I think it would easily put him up with the heavy hitters who aim for the 50+ str builds since he would get +21 to damanage output. With the weapons of choice he has rapiers and shortswords his crit range is also huge. And we havent even touched what his sneak attack damage would be. The only thing i would really change is some of the gear at end game.
    Armor: Lv25 Whisperchain
    Cloak: Lv 25 epic Cloak of Night
    Bracers: Lv 25 Bracers of Twisting Shade
    Boots:lv 25 Tread of Falling Shadow
    Gloves: Lv25 Nether Grasp

    With that group of items damage output is increased even more and all your rogue skills are taken care of as well. Also you get a nice dodge bonus item with 10/good dr. I think that would tweak your build just abit. But thats my thoughts on it.

  16. #156
    Founder Mellkor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dom_keno View Post
    I would like to add in something some people have said about this post lacking on DPS. With the artificer Dilli. he can use Insightful damage for his weapons thats a dramatic increase on damage output. I think it would easily put him up with the heavy hitters who aim for the 50+ str builds since he would get +21 to damanage output. With the weapons of choice he has rapiers and shortswords his crit range is also huge. And we havent even touched what his sneak attack damage would be. The only thing i would really change is some of the gear at end game.
    Armor: Lv25 Whisperchain
    Cloak: Lv 25 epic Cloak of Night
    Bracers: Lv 25 Bracers of Twisting Shade
    Boots:lv 25 Tread of Falling Shadow
    Gloves: Lv25 Nether Grasp

    With that group of items damage output is increased even more and all your rogue skills are taken care of as well. Also you get a nice dodge bonus item with 10/good dr. I think that would tweak your build just abit. But thats my thoughts on it.
    Dodge would go from 25% to about 11% since it limits max dodge cap by a lot due to its 11 max dex bonus. I strongly advise against that armour.

    Also Insightful damage only casts to the main hand. Since you cant cast a scroll from your off hand, you end up casting insightful damage on the stack of scrolls in your main hand :/
    Last edited by Mellkor; 12-11-2012 at 07:33 AM.
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  17. #157
    Community Member me_TOO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mellkor View Post
    Dodge would go from 25% to about 11% since it limits max dodge cap by a lot due to its 11 max dex bonus. I strongly advise against that armour.
    17% with the Lithe Shadowdancer ability

  18. #158
    Founder Mellkor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by me_TOO View Post
    17% with the Lithe Shadowdancer ability
    even 17% is not good enough IMO.
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  19. #159
    Community Member me_TOO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mellkor View Post
    even 17% is not good enough IMO.
    I am a little disappointed that its so low on that armor, I will have to get an Elite one to finally drop for me to test out the break points I did some number crunching and i believe i can get my ac to 80 without sacrificing a twist (actually freeing up a twist since it cant accomidate 19% dodge) or compromising my other slots. The goodies on that armor are pretty awesome, but since they made it like Spiritcraft rather than celestial it makes a great rogue item something ideal for epic Hard... rogues in skirts is just not DnD to me

    I need something better than my +7 Hallowed Celestial Chain of Omniscience

  20. #160
    Court Jester hi_sa1nt's Avatar
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    What do you use for deathblock? Seems like a well placed Finger or Disintegrate etc would take you out.

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